my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

"leza wang" wrote in message
...
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want
to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i
have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should
change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2
holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

If you are not having problems with fuses blowing, etc. then no urgent
need to do anything...

However note that modern wiring is *much* safer and will protect
people from being electrocuted. Especially small children.

Also there is a greater risk of fire with older wiring, especially
around ceiling and wall light fixtures where the insulation on the
wires might have crumbled inside the wall due to heat from the lights.
At a minimum I would have that upgraded to high temperature wiring and
have GFCI outlets installed in wet areas like bathroom, kitchen, and
outside outlets.

Also be sure you have working smoke detectors inside each bedroom and
in the hallways outside the bedrooms. (No matter what you do with the
wiring.)

On 7/4/2011 8:45 AM, leza wang wrote:
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

As another poster said, if you're not having problems or symptoms
(including such things as flickering or dimming when turn on large
appliances), likelihood is you're not in terrible shape.

There will be at least one regular who will insist it _must_ be done now
and spout insurance as the reason amongst other ravings.

My real answer is "we can't tell from here".

You need your own system evaluated by an expert who can see and touch it
and determine the state.

--

"leza wang" wrote in message
...
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

Knob and Tube wiring. Time to upgrade, especially if you are putting loads
like air conditioners. Call a competent electrician or two for estimates
and recommendations.

On 7/4/2011 9:45 AM, leza wang wrote:
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

OK Leza, here's the deal. A 70+ year old house can, and probably does
have many types of wiring, possibly including Knob & Tube. The fact that
you have a 100 amp service is a good indicator that some upgrading has
already been done. Older wiring, regardless of type, will be less safe
than current wiring types. This doesn't necessarily mean you should run
out and have it all replaced. It would be helpful if you could post some
pictures of your electric service, the cables entering the service
panel, and any wiring you can see in your attic. With the pictures, a
better evaluation of you situation can be made.

Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"leza wang" wrote in message
...
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really).
I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel
shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i
should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2
knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet
with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

On 7/4/2011 1:05 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.


OK, how'd you get that picture of Bob Haller's basement???

Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

On Jul 4, 1:17*pm, RBM wrote:
On 7/4/2011 1:05 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:
* *http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.

OK, how'd you get that picture of Bob Haller's basement???

funny.......

the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

On 7/4/2011 1:24 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 4, 1:17 pm, wrote:
On 7/4/2011 1:05 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.

OK, how'd you get that picture of Bob Haller's basement???

funny.......

the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

The picture shows a 1960's era Romex cable spliced into the K&T. It
would be advisable to remove that violation.

On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970, questions
came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house pre-dated WW2, I would
have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot make assumptions that apply
to every company, but many are getting particular on who they will insure,
and probably will increase the price if there are additional risks
discovered.

On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.



All i can tell you is that there are probably 2000 early 1900's houses
in the town i live in. And I'll bet 99% of them are insured. AND I'll
also bet there are other towns in the US of A that are very similar.
So, to blanket say "knob and tube can't be insured" is ridiculous.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.



also, I would add that I believe the aluminum wiring your company was
concerned about is many many times more of a concern than knob and tube.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/4/2011 2:11 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.



also, I would add that I believe the aluminum wiring your company was
concerned about is many many times more of a concern than knob and tube.

I agree. Of my 1000+ customers, a number of them have some K&T in their
houses and businesses, and I can assure you that they ALL have
insurance. My local State Farm office has told me that the company
policy is to assess the condition of whatever type of wiring is in the
building. Aluminum single conductor wiring from the early 70's is known
to have caused fires, primarily in areas with high salt air, such as the
Jersey shore. Even that type of wiring is acceptable when properly
terminated.

On Jul 4, 1:33*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:





Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new *insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. *Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

--
Steve Barker


Anyone who doubts my statement just call state farm. They will flat
out NOT sell a new policy to any NEW customer with K&T./

Its not just the K&T but the lack of sufficent outlets etc......

these days a new homeowners policy gets a home inspection by a
insurance company representive or at minimum the agent drives by and
takes photos of ther new perspective customers home.

they dont want to voluntarily insure homes at risk.

On Jul 4, 2:23*pm, RBM wrote:
On 7/4/2011 2:11 PM, Steve Barker wrote:



On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
om...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.

also, I would add that I believe the aluminum wiring your company was
concerned about is many many times more of a concern than knob and tube..

I agree. Of my 1000+ customers, a number of them have some K&T in their
houses and businesses, and I can assure you that they ALL have
insurance. My local State Farm office has told me that the company
policy is to assess the condition of whatever type of wiring is in the
building. Aluminum single conductor wiring from the early 70's is known
to have caused fires, primarily in areas with high salt air, such as the
Jersey shore. Even that type of wiring is acceptable when properly
terminated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

homeowners often have insurance with a single company fore however
long they own their home.

these rules only apply to new customers

the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

The picture shows a 1960's era Romex cable spliced into the K&T. It
would be advisable to remove that violation

most K&T homes are filled with such violations and some may be
hidden behind walls etc in places with no way to easily inspect.

Things change over 70 to 100 years. homeowners modify things on the
cheap.

the possiblity of such issues on such a old home are great.

and exactly how would any electrician inspect wiring covered with
walls? remember splices in K&T arent in boxes......

worse K&T was designed for operation in open air. insulation shouldnt
be around K&T/

even if a homebuyer was able to get homeowners insurance given energy
costs today the buyer would likely want insulation which requires a
rewire.

nothing lasts forever K&T is obsolete just like a 1940s car. newer
cars are much safer and efficent

I work for the government, in my spare time. I have
"somewhat but not really very much" level clearance. We have
Xray satelites, but I'm not allowed to tell you that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2011 1:05 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.


OK, how'd you get that picture of Bob Haller's basement???

On Jul 4, 8:38*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I work for the government, in my spare time. I have
"somewhat but not really very much" level clearance. We have
Xray satelites, but I'm not allowed to tell you that.

--
Christopher A. Young


uh oh please dont post photos of my messy basement I am embarased"( At
least give me time till I clean it up!!!!

On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:

the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

The picture shows a 1960's era Romex cable spliced into the K&T. It
would be advisable to remove that violation

most K&T homes are filled with such violations and some may be
hidden behind walls etc in places with no way to easily inspect.

haller has an Ouija board and he knows.


Things change over 70 to 100 years. homeowners modify things on the
cheap.

haller took psychology 3 and he knows.


the possiblity of such issues on such a old home are great.

haller is fond of FUD.


and exactly how would any electrician inspect wiring covered with
walls? remember splices in K&T arent in boxes......

How does anyone find the "creative" wiring added to any system?

How about old non-ground romex buried in insulation. The wires are next
to each other in case of a problem. K&T they are separated. And the wire
insulation is not adequate for insulation burial.


worse K&T was designed for operation in open air. insulation shouldnt
be around K&T/

The code change was not based on data. The chief electrical inspector in
Minneapolis, which has lots of K&T in insulation, said he had not seen a
problem. Haler posted a link from an agency in his own state that
installs insulation around K&T

State code for insulation around K&T varies. Like in his own state.


even if a homebuyer was able to get homeowners insurance given energy
costs today the buyer would likely want insulation which requires a
rewire.

As people have made clear in the past, insurance companies may or may
not care.

In one challenge to insurance denial the insurance company was reversed
by the state insurance regulator because the insurance company provided
no actuarial basis for the denial.


nothing lasts forever K&T is obsolete just like a 1940s car. newer
cars are much safer and efficent

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?

K&T is still in the NEC.


I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last
week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.

--
bud--

On 7/5/2011 4:33 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:

the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

The picture shows a 1960's era Romex cable spliced into the K&T. It
would be advisable to remove that violation

most K&T homes are filled with such violations and some may be
hidden behind walls etc in places with no way to easily inspect.

haller has an Ouija board and he knows.


Things change over 70 to 100 years. homeowners modify things on the
cheap.

haller took psychology 3 and he knows.


the possiblity of such issues on such a old home are great.

haller is fond of FUD.


and exactly how would any electrician inspect wiring covered with
walls? remember splices in K&T arent in boxes......

How does anyone find the "creative" wiring added to any system?

How about old non-ground romex buried in insulation. The wires are next
to each other in case of a problem. K&T they are separated. And the wire
insulation is not adequate for insulation burial.


worse K&T was designed for operation in open air. insulation shouldnt
be around K&T/

The code change was not based on data. The chief electrical inspector in
Minneapolis, which has lots of K&T in insulation, said he had not seen a
problem. Haler posted a link from an agency in his own state that
installs insulation around K&T

State code for insulation around K&T varies. Like in his own state.


even if a homebuyer was able to get homeowners insurance given energy
costs today the buyer would likely want insulation which requires a
rewire.

As people have made clear in the past, insurance companies may or may
not care.

In one challenge to insurance denial the insurance company was reversed
by the state insurance regulator because the insurance company provided
no actuarial basis for the denial.


nothing lasts forever K&T is obsolete just like a 1940s car. newer
cars are much safer and efficent

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?

K&T is still in the NEC.


I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last
week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.

OMG, every time this gets rewound it's good for a laugh. Sadly, in as
much as I try to state facts as I know them, I always feel like I'm
picking on Rainman

On Jul 5, 4:33*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:



the photo shows a white wire attached to the K&T and taped up.

Thisa is not a original K&T splice.

Its time to upgrade....

The picture shows a 1960's era Romex cable spliced into the K&T. It
would be advisable to remove that violation

most K&T homes are filled with such violations and some may be
hidden behind walls etc in places with no way to easily inspect.

haller has an Ouija board and he knows.



Things change over 70 to 100 years. homeowners modify things on the
cheap.

haller took psychology 3 and he knows.



the possiblity of such issues on such a old home are great.

haller is fond of FUD.



and exactly how would any electrician inspect wiring covered with
walls? remember splices in K&T arent in boxes......

How does anyone find the "creative" wiring added to any system?

How about old non-ground romex buried in insulation. The wires are next
to each other in case of a problem. K&T they are separated. And the wire
insulation is not adequate for insulation burial.



worse K&T was designed for operation in open air. insulation shouldnt
be around K&T/

The code change was not based on data. The chief electrical inspector in
Minneapolis, which has lots of K&T in insulation, said he had not seen a
problem. Haler posted a link from an agency in his own state that
installs insulation around K&T

State code for insulation around K&T varies. Like in his own state.



even if a homebuyer was able to get homeowners insurance given energy
costs today the buyer would likely want insulation which requires a
rewire.

As people have made clear in the past, insurance companies may or may
not care.

In one challenge to insurance denial the insurance company was reversed
by the state insurance regulator because the insurance company provided
no actuarial basis for the denial.



nothing lasts forever K&T is obsolete just like a 1940s car. newer
cars are much safer and efficent

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?

K&T is still in the NEC.

I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last
week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.

--
bud--

Bud your whipping a dead horse.

Home buyers TODAY are very picky. now add shows like holmes inspection
which clearly calls K&T a fire hazard....Between shows iike this the
home flip shows that rountinely remove all K&T, the insurance
companies that dont like K&T, he frequent lack of enough and 3 prong
outlets, let alone GFCI and arc fault protection.

defenders of K&T have lost....

they are beating a dead horse.....

hey I dont care, too each his own.

but I pride myself in giving the best advice here I can. and stand by
replace K&T at every opportunity.

just like fuse boxes they are both obsolete

On Jul 4, 1:10*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:







"Steve Barker" wrote in message
m...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.

All i can tell you is that there are probably 2000 early 1900's houses
in the town i live in. *And I'll bet 99% of them are insured. *AND I'll
also bet there are other towns in the US of A that are very similar.
So, to blanket say "knob and tube can't be insured" is ridiculous.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.

On Jul 4, 6:05*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Please look in the cellar. Go into the cellar, bring a
flashlight, and look up. If it looks like this:
* *http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg
it's the old, dangeous stuff. If so, please call three or
four electricians to submit estimates for upgrading to the
newer, safer wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"leza wang" wrote in message

...
my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really).
I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel
shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i
should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2
knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet
with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

****, that looks dangerous!!!!!!

On Jul 4, 7:10*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:







"Steve Barker" wrote in message
m...
On 7/4/2011 12:18 PM, bob haller wrote:
Are your outlets 3 prong?

If you have K&T wiring you might as well replace it now and get some
use out of your money.

Homeowners insurance companies refuse to provide new insurance
policies to K&T homes .........

K&T usually isnt grounded, has few outlets making for more extension
cords a big fire risk.

just call state farm and ask about a new policy with K&T you will get
turned down flat.

if a future home buyer cant get insurance they cant get a mortage
so no one will want to buy your home

well maybe a cash buyer at great discount... which isnt good for sales
price.

think of how many new cars and other things you buy in 70 years, to
get modern safe things.

well the electrical system in your home is no different. nothing lasts
forever

Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or
care about the wiring.

Maybe, but I just changed my insurance company and they asked a lot of
questions, because my house was originally constructed in 1970,
questions came up about aluminum wiring, I am sure if the house
pre-dated WW2, I would have had questions about K&T wiring. One cannot
make assumptions that apply to every company, but many are getting
particular on who they will insure, and probably will increase the price
if there are additional risks discovered.

All i can tell you is that there are probably 2000 early 1900's houses
in the town i live in. *And I'll bet 99% of them are insured. *AND I'll
also bet there are other towns in the US of A that are very similar.
So, to blanket say "knob and tube can't be insured" is ridiculous.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Insurance and its cost should be less of a concern than possibility of
lives lost.

When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.-

note you said 15 years........ thats a long time..

before all the wild unpredictable weather that wipes out entire
communities and costs insurance megabucks in losses

plus insurance is a competive business. why should homeowners
insurance companies take on higher risk customers? that hurts their
bottom line

K&T homes are functionally obsolete, with just ONE outlet per bedroom,
few outlets overall, requiring lots of extension cords, with a long
lifetime to aquire hacked upgrades, like the photo in this discssion.
K&T doesnt use boxes for connections, thats a real hazard. a buddy of
mine has K&T and has connections fry.

will the posters who claim K&T is fine please post if they still have
it???

every time this topic comes up we have the same discussion

"hr(bob) " wrote

When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.

Part of our building at work dates back to about 1890. A large storage
closet and a small utility room each have one light fixture with K&T and
neither is ever used. Insurance inspector said they must be changed. The
rest of the building had been rewired decades ago.

On 7/6/2011 5:19 AM, bob haller wrote:
When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.-

note you said 15 years........ thats a long time..

before all the wild unpredictable weather that wipes out entire
communities and costs insurance megabucks in losses

plus insurance is a competive business. why should homeowners
insurance companies take on higher risk customers? that hurts their
bottom line

K&T homes are functionally obsolete, with just ONE outlet per bedroom,
few outlets overall, requiring lots of extension cords, with a long
lifetime to aquire hacked upgrades, like the photo in this discssion.
K&T doesnt use boxes for connections, thats a real hazard. a buddy of
mine has K&T and has connections fry.

will the posters who claim K&T is fine please post if they still have
it???

every time this topic comes up we have the same discussion

FYI, you constantly charge that houses with K&T have ONE outlet per
bedroom. This is pure nonsense. The original wiring was very sparse but
virtually all the houses with K&T that I've worked in have added new
circuits, outlets, central air, breaker panels, etc. over the years,
just like houses built post K&T have done.

FYI, you constantly charge that houses with K&T have ONE outlet per
bedroom. This is pure nonsense. The original wiring was very sparse but
virtually all the houses with K&T that I've worked in have added new
circuits, outlets, central air, breaker panels, etc. over the years,
just like houses built post K&T have done.-

you point out part of the problem....... how many of those changes
were done properly?

most were likely piecemeal low cost changes as demoed from the photo
by the OP.

and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

On 7/5/2011 10:38 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 5, 4:33 pm, wrote:
On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?

K&T is still in the NEC.

I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last
week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.

--
bud--

Bud your [sic] whipping a dead horse.

I am just interested in accurate information, not fetishes.


but I pride myself in giving the best advice here I can. and stand by
replace K&T at every opportunity.

Yes, best advice like your link to a report from the "Pennsylvania
Department of Community and Economic Development" that says "properly
installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard". They
do not "replace K&T at every opportunity". And they insulate over K&T.
In Pennsylvania!!!! From YOUR link.

Hey - isn't that where you live? If I was you I would move somewhere else.

And best advice like your link that says "the wires in knob-and-tube are
aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current
at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things
get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru
aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction."

And your link that says "no ground wire, [makes] the use of GFCI style
electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

I am more interested in reliable sources, like Mike Holt's site. It has
real electricians, and they view K&T as something that you work with.

Electricians here don't share your fetish either.

Perhaps you could be "deprogramed".

--
bud--

On 7/6/2011 7:38 AM, bob haller wrote:

FYI, you constantly charge that houses with K&T have ONE outlet per
bedroom. This is pure nonsense. The original wiring was very sparse but
virtually all the houses with K&T that I've worked in have added new
circuits, outlets, central air, breaker panels, etc. over the years,
just like houses built post K&T have done.-

you point out part of the problem....... how many of those changes
were done properly?

As with any type of electrical wiring. It depends upon the person doing
the work. The same is true with wiring installations done fifty years
ago, or done yesterday. Properly done or improperly done wiring has no
more relevance to K&T than any other type of wiring material.

most were likely piecemeal low cost changes as demoed from the photo
by the OP.

"most"?. Sorry, I don't deal in mindless speculation, and neither do
the insurance companies in my area. The insurance company listing for
wiring in older houses in this area are termed "mixed". If they feel
that there is a need, they hire people like myself to inspect it for
safety. I happen to do this for State Farm, who does not dismiss any
type of wiring out of hand, despite what your brother, aunt, cousin, and
15 neighbors told you. Could just be the area you live in??

and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do
renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried
violations

On Jul 6, 3:31*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:38 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 5, 4:33 pm, *wrote:
On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?

K&T is still in the NEC.

I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last
week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.

--
bud--

Bud your [sic] whipping a dead horse.

I am just interested in accurate information, not fetishes.



but I pride myself in giving the best advice here I can. and stand by
replace K&T at every opportunity.

Yes, best advice like your link to a report from the "Pennsylvania
Department of Community and Economic Development" that says "properly
installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard". They
do not "replace K&T at every opportunity". And they insulate over K&T.
In Pennsylvania!!!! From YOUR link.

Hey - isn't that where you live? If I was you I would move somewhere else..

And best advice like your link that says "the wires in knob-and-tube are
aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current
at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things
get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru
aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction."

And your link that says "no ground wire, [makes] the use of GFCI style
electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

I am more interested in reliable sources, like Mike Holt's site. It has
real electricians, and they view K&T as something that you work with.

Electricians here don't share your fetish either.

Perhaps you could be "deprogramed".

--
bud--

i didnt post any of those links......

anyone reading this just call and try to get homeowners insurance with
K&T.....call state farm.

...

and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do
renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried
violations

the older a home is the longer it had to get hacked wiring......

On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote:
....

anyone reading this just call and try to get homeowners insurance with
K&T.....call state farm.
....

I've told you this multiple times before--if you have difficulties in
your location, it's a local/state/regional thing, _NOT_ nationwide.

Am heavily involved in revitalization effort in older part of home town
and many of those houses are still K&T; we have very limited funding for
these projects so there often are severe constraints on what can be
accomplished. We therefore do not automatically simply rip out existing
K&T but evaluate condition during the restoration and go from there.
There has never been an issue of the homeowner being refused insurance
even when the wiring has not been replaced.

As noted, it is still covered by Code; there's no basis for removal or
denial of coverage on that basis.

You really should restrain the blanket statements.

--

On Jul 7, 9:48*am, dpb wrote:
On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote:
...

anyone reading this just call and try to get homeowners insurance with
K&T.....call state farm.

...

I've told you this multiple times before--if you have difficulties in
your location, it's a local/state/regional thing, _NOT_ nationwide.

Am heavily involved in revitalization effort in older part of home town
and many of those houses are still K&T; we have very limited funding for
these projects so there often are severe constraints on what can be
accomplished. *We therefore do not automatically simply rip out existing
K&T but evaluate condition during the restoration and go from there.
There has never been an issue of the homeowner being refused insurance
even when the wiring has not been replaced.

As noted, it is still covered by Code; there's no basis for removal or
denial of coverage on that basis.

You really should restrain the blanket statements.

--

like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says
the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....

And someone here said insurance required removal of K&T from a couple
little used rooms.

perhaps theres a insurance company out there that takes on K&T perhaps
for a higher cost?

K&T connections arent in boxes, K&T is designed for open air operation
and shouldnt be insulated around, K&T is often OVERFUSED, putting
everything at great risk, K&T has had 70 to 100 years and more to be
hacked modified. K&T is just bad news and will no doubt get flagged by
any home inspector.

As someone else reported here homeowners insurance checks before
writing new policies..

If they didnt rates to cover excess losses would go up, making them
less competive.......

On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
....

like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says
the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....
....

I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's
continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. These are generally
putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies;
not always but generally. Either way, we've never had any tentative
homeowner application for insurance turned down for wiring, K&T or no.
In fact, the only problem one I can recall wasn't anything at all to do
w/ the house but the financial history of the client.

What your local State Farm guy is telling you hasn't promulgated here,
anyway, whatever he says. It may be just his way of covering his
butt--"Hey, it ain't me, it's everybody!" is a good-sounding excuse to
not have to listen any longer to complaints.

I've not looked specifically, perhaps the State insurance commissioner
rulings trump what might otherwise be a desired corporate policy and
they've decided it's not worth pulling out of the state over. Whatever
is the reason for the apparent dichotomy between your situation there
and here, it is not universal that K&T alone prevents either passing
inspection, obtaining homeowners insurance or selling a residence for a
fair market price.

Others have corroborated that side of the story as well...

You can state a local issue as you wish; I'll continue to counter that
it's not national if you continue to make the generic "one size fits all".

--

On Jul 7, 10:50*am, dpb wrote:
On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
...

like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says
the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....

...

I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's
continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. *These are generally
putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies;
not always but generally. *Either way, we've never had any tentative
homeowner application for insurance turned down for wiring, K&T or no.
In fact, the only problem one I can recall wasn't anything at all to do
w/ the house but the financial history of the client.

What your local State Farm guy is telling you hasn't promulgated here,
anyway, whatever he says. *It may be just his way of covering his
butt--"Hey, it ain't me, it's everybody!" is a good-sounding excuse to
not have to listen any longer to complaints.

I've not looked specifically, perhaps the State insurance commissioner
rulings trump what might otherwise be a desired corporate policy and
they've decided it's not worth pulling out of the state over. *Whatever
is the reason for the apparent dichotomy between your situation there
and here, it is not universal that K&T alone prevents either passing
inspection, obtaining homeowners insurance or selling a residence for a
fair market price.

Others have corroborated that side of the story as well...

You can state a local issue as you wish; I'll continue to counter that
it's not national if you continue to make the generic "one size fits all"..

--

Well home inspectors are natinwide, and if a homeowner EVER will sell
their home, K&T is going to be a issue to make it far harder to sell.
Plus your home is likely the greatest investment any individual will
ever make.

Might as well take care of it, because someday you may want or need to
sell.

and since your group is rehapping nhomes perhaps theres a prefered
bprovider arrangement for insurance?

why not find out who is insuring thoose homes and post the companies
name here......

I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current
homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..

On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 6, 3:31 pm, wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:38 PM, bob haller wrote:

but I pride myself in giving the best advice here I can. and stand by
replace K&T at every opportunity.

Yes, best advice like your link to a report from the "Pennsylvania
Department of Community and Economic Development" that says "properly
installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard". They
do not "replace K&T at every opportunity". And they insulate over K&T.
In Pennsylvania!!!! From YOUR link.

Hey - isn't that where you live? If I was you I would move somewhere else.

And best advice like your link that says "the wires in knob-and-tube are
aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current
at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things
get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru
aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction."

And your link that says "no ground wire, [makes] the use of GFCI style
electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

I am more interested in reliable sources, like Mike Holt's site. It has
real electricians, and they view K&T as something that you work with.

Electricians here don't share your fetish either.

Perhaps you could be "deprogramed".

--
bud--

i didnt [sic]post any of those links......


You posted all those links.

A couple were in a google search.
"GFCI/AFCI" was number 2 in the search.
"Aluminum" was somewhere in the top 10.
"Pennsylvania Department" was a link only to that document.

All yours.

Maybe you should read what you post. But then you seem to have a problem
with reading comprehension.

Maybe deprogrammng would help that too.

--
bud--

"leza wang" wrote in message
...

my home is like 70 or even more years old (not sure really). I want to
know if i should upgrad the wiring. the electrical panel shows i have
100 amp. I have been told if i have knob 2 wiring then i should change
it to 3 knob wiring. My question, how can I know if i have 2 knob
wireing or 3? in the main floor, i have all power outlet with 2 holes
(+,-) upstair I have power oullet with 3 holes (+,-, ground)
Thanks a lot.

Call an electrician (or even several) to get your wiring inspected and get a
quote on upgrading if it's needed. Even if they charge you a few bucks for
an inspection you'll at least know what you're dealing with.