I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to
secure wiring fished inside of walls


wrote in message
ps.com...
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

On Mar 5, 9:30�am, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to
secure wiring fished inside of walls

wrote in message

ps.com...



I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. *Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) *inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. *The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. *Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its
disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/

if you can see it remove it!

On 5 Mar 2007 06:33:15 -0800, "
wrote:

On Mar 5, 9:30?am, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to
secure wiring fished inside of walls

wrote in message

ps.com...



I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. ur
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) )nspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. he first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. o I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its
disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/

if you can see it remove it!

I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us.

On 5 Mar 2007 06:28:13 -0800,
wrote:

I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

imho:

Before you do anything, I would suggest you get a qualified
electrician. Although you want to do the work yourself, you can pay
him/her to show up now and then to help guide you.


As for your questions, I would remove the wire so no confusion later.
With the securing question, I believe the NEC addresses this by
allowing it be unsecured in areas where inaccessible with a remodel.

Check just in case.

later,

tom @ www.Consolidated-Loans.info

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:45:17 -0600, Deke wrote:


I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its
disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/

I would be impressed, and like it.

if you can see it remove it!

I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us.

Just shows how old the house is. I like that.


BTW is an inspector unqualified just because he doesn't note K&T.
AIUI, it's still legal. Does he fill out a detailed report, or is he
only supposed to note violatons?

wrote:
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?

Are you assuming that the inspector is bad because he failed to note
K&T? To the best of my knowledge (limited as it is) K&T is legal as
grandfathered in. There are times you do need to change it out, but I don't
believe it is universally illegal.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

House inspectors are not electrical inspectors. They usually note anything
that needs attention or can cost you money to repair or upgrade. The good
ones will recognize violations too



"mm" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:45:17 -0600, Deke wrote:


I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its
disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/

I would be impressed, and like it.

if you can see it remove it!

I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us.

Just shows how old the house is. I like that.


BTW is an inspector unqualified just because he doesn't note K&T.
AIUI, it's still legal. Does he fill out a detailed report, or is he
only supposed to note violatons?

On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
wrote:
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?


Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.

The K&T wiring is not necessarily something the inspector missed. Perhaps
he just didn't see any problems with it.

Answers to your questions:
1. no
2. no

--
Steve Barker




wrote in message
ps.com...
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

It's worth $2 a pound if you burn the insulation off of it. That's one
reason to remove it. So far, I've pulled about 50 lbs of copper out of the
two houses I'm doing right now.

--
Steve Barker




wrote in message
ps.com...
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

cavedweller wrote:
On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:

wrote:

I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?



Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.


Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it,
so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in
my book.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it,
as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose


people's "cavedweller" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
wrote:
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there
has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?


Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.

On Mar 5, 5:35 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it,
as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose

Agreed as well. My recent experience was in response to an insurance
company concern where their report had simply shown a check mark in
the "Yes" box beside K&T wiring.

In my case, however, the service panel had already been upgraded to
200 A and current code wiring for the major circuits had been
installed previously.

I requested, and paid for, a provincial agency (Ontario ESA)
inspection and, on the basis of their assessment, had some relatively
minor modifications made, including the addition of some GF outlets
for protection.

The major concern was therefore only for the remaining lighting
circuits.

Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the
knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for
pre 1920 wiring of all types?



"cavedweller" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 5, 5:35 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's
easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn
it,
as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic
cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention
paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its
age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old
wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense
to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose

Agreed as well. My recent experience was in response to an insurance
company concern where their report had simply shown a check mark in
the "Yes" box beside K&T wiring.

In my case, however, the service panel had already been upgraded to
200 A and current code wiring for the major circuits had been
installed previously.

I requested, and paid for, a provincial agency (Ontario ESA)
inspection and, on the basis of their assessment, had some relatively
minor modifications made, including the addition of some GF outlets
for protection.

The major concern was therefore only for the remaining lighting
circuits.

On Mar 5, 5:35�pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it,
as *many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose

people's "cavedweller" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
wrote:
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. *Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) *inspector missed
some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half
the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. *The first question is:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

The second question is:

I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube
and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. *Do I
have to open the wall and secure this every four feet?

Thanks,
Gavin

* * Are you sure you want to replace it? * Really. *K&T is a very good
wiring system. *You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there
has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?

Agreed. *Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

some negativity is because of fires caused since the connections arent
in boxes buried in walls..........

insurance doesnt like K&T because of increased fire risk from a system
likely a 100 years old.

what other things do we own that last a 100 years?

BUT only if he's going to insulate OR someone already did. The OP didn't
mention insulation.

--
Steve Barker




"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so
that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my
book.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

My agent didn't even mention wiring.
I'm sure most don't.
--
Steve Barker




"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the
knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for
pre 1920 wiring of all types?

On 2007-03-05, RBM wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it,
as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose

We have a rental property we bought back in '94 that was built in 1923 give or
take and it came to us with nothing but K&T wiring and a whole host of other
more serious problems such as really bad & leaking roof, plumbing that was
leaking on both the hot-n-cold and sewer.. Anyway, we had to get hazard (big
$$) insurance since nobody would otherwise give us a policy.. We quickly found
that the majority of the house had been wired into a SINGLE K&T circuit and
that had I fired up a larger sized microwave oven we probably would have
started charring wires in the attic.. We ended up re-doing the entire wiring
system and ditched all of it -- it was a major hack job! Once we faxed a copy
of the county inspectors closed-out permit showing replaced plumbing, electric,
etc -- we were able to get a good (and cheap) insurance policy that was 10x
cheaper than the hazard variety.

YMMV!

I think that the point here is that your house's infrastructure was in poor
condition and as such it's in danger of fire, flood etc. Age alone does not
make wiring bad or dangerous. A house built in 23' could have wiring types
other than K&T, which in a poorly kept house, could deteriorate as badly or
worse than the K&T. In fact, in the book " Old Electrical Wiring" by David
Shapiro, he writes there is evidence that K&T was used in the 1980's in New
Orleans, in areas that flooded frequently, specifically because it held up
under those conditions.



"Rick F." wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-05, RBM wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's
easily
recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which
dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances
later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn
it,
as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types
has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic
cables
not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention
paid
to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its
age.
Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old
wiring
methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense
to
install new wiring as the opportunity arose

We have a rental property we bought back in '94 that was built in 1923
give or
take and it came to us with nothing but K&T wiring and a whole host of
other
more serious problems such as really bad & leaking roof, plumbing that was
leaking on both the hot-n-cold and sewer.. Anyway, we had to get hazard
(big
$$) insurance since nobody would otherwise give us a policy.. We quickly
found
that the majority of the house had been wired into a SINGLE K&T circuit
and
that had I fired up a larger sized microwave oven we probably would have
started charring wires in the attic.. We ended up re-doing the entire
wiring
system and ditched all of it -- it was a major hack job! Once we faxed a
copy
of the county inspectors closed-out permit showing replaced plumbing,
electric,
etc -- we were able to get a good (and cheap) insurance policy that was
10x
cheaper than the hazard variety.

YMMV!

On 2007-03-06, RBM wrote:
I think that the point here is that your house's infrastructure was in poor
condition and as such it's in danger of fire, flood etc. Age alone does not
make wiring bad or dangerous. A house built in 23' could have wiring types
other than K&T, which in a poorly kept house, could deteriorate as badly or
worse than the K&T. In fact, in the book " Old Electrical Wiring" by David
Shapiro, he writes there is evidence that K&T was used in the 1980's in New
Orleans, in areas that flooded frequently, specifically because it held up
under those conditions.

Point taken.. This place we bought was in fact very poorly maintained over
the years -- of course we got a good price on it and would buy another one
if given the opportunity (8-

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:48:39 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

House inspectors are not electrical inspectors. They usually note anything
that needs attention or can cost you money to repair or upgrade. The good
ones will recognize violations too

Thanks.

On Mar 5, 7:24 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote:
My agent didn't even mention wiring.
I'm sure most don't.

I know of three occasions recently where insurance agents have
solicited information, at policy renewal time, on electrical service
capacity and wiring type, plumbing supply type (iron vs copper), and
heating system including specifics of furnace age, fuel oil storage
(tank age, irrespective of condition).

In one case, inspection of one property was undertaken at the
insurance agent's request/suggestion under the pretext of "making sure
that coverages were adequate".

If they don't ask, then I suggest you don't tell.

Nate Nagel wrote:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?


Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is
there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?



Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.


What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation
and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat,
and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced.

IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme.



Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it,
so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in
my book.

nate



http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.


--
bud--

Bud-- wrote:
SNIP


http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.


--
bud--

Bookmarked !!!

What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this
amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive
move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view,
knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus
encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to
the original design."

HaHa A "pre-emptive move" based on little more than hot air.

Jim

Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!

I'm keeping a copy for future debates



"Bud--" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?


Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is
there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?



Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.


What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and
carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were
adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced.

IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining
scheme.



Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so
that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my
book.

nate



http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation
was permitted some places, not in others.


--
bud--

On Mar 6, 3:41�pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!

I'm keeping a copy for future debates

"Bud--" wrote in message

...



Nate Nagel wrote:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

* *Are you sure you want to replace it? * Really. *K&T is a very good
wiring system. *You would not put any new in, but assuming what is
there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?

Agreed. *Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.

What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and
carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were
adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced.

IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining
scheme.

Wellllll... *most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so
that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my
book.

nate

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation
was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Anyone fighting the K&T issue.

How old is you car? Appliances in home?

Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but
spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment
they have their home/

People generally replace things when they no longer function properly or as
originally intended. Unlike appliances and automobiles, wiring systems have
no moving parts. a better analogy might be an antique vase or painting,
which if kept in the proper environment should last a very long time. Some
old wiring systems, including K&T are not in good working order and should
be replaced. Some have been modified in ways that make them dangerous, and
should be replaced. Some are in perfectly good working condition, and can be
left to do what they've been doing






wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 6, 3:41?pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!

I'm keeping a copy for future debates

"Bud--" wrote in message

...



Nate Nagel wrote:

Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring?

Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good
wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is
there has
the capacity for what you need, why replace it?

Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal
insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.

What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation
and
carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and
were
adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced.

IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining
scheme.

Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it,
so
that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my
book.

nate

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation
was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Anyone fighting the K&T issue.

How old is you car? Appliances in home?

Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but
spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment
they have their home/

I can't imagine not wanting good insulation, esp. with fuel costs the
way they are today. I'll be doing my upstairs as soon as it warms up
enough to rewire. The second floor of my house, which has uninsulated
frame walls, is a good 5 degrees colder (62 vs. 67 degrees) than the
downstairs, which is masonry - and it's only in the mid-30s here.

In my case it's not an issue that there's K&T in the walls; the wiring
is old cloth covered non-metallic. the issue is that the wiring is
ungrounded and I want to split the floor into two different circuits
and add the now-required bathroom circuit, and just don't want to mess
around fishing wire through cellulose.

nate

On Mar 5, 7:22 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote:
BUT only if he's going to insulate OR someone already did. The OP didn't
mention insulation.

--
Steve Barker

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...





Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so
that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my
book.

nate

RBM wrote:

Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!


I wish I was that smart. The link came Phil Munro in a post to this
newsgroup about a half year ago.

The other link Phil posted is:
http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
which is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of
insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance
company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance
company was ordered to renew the policy because tne insurance company
"provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring
per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".



But I'm sure this is all made irrelevant by hallerb's voluminous records
of fires caused by K&T wiring.

--
bud--

Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how
much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how
meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T
held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot,
wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this
stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the
K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its
condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that
as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less
demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my
opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived
notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise
there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim






"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
RBM wrote:

Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!


I wish I was that smart. The link came Phil Munro in a post to this
newsgroup about a half year ago.

The other link Phil posted is:
http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
which is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of insurance
by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered
to renew the policy because tne insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".



But I'm sure this is all made irrelevant by hallerb's voluminous records
of fires caused by K&T wiring.

--
bud--

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove this)
@optonline.net says...
Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the
knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for
pre 1920 wiring of all types?

Some companies do have a general age surcharge -- my own home has a
"pre-1930" surcharge at the moment, until I've finished some other
upgrades and rewrite the policy. No surcharge for having K&T.

Many companies have a very general guideline such as "wiring that is
obsolete, deteriorated, or in need of replacement." K&T is one obvious
thing to look for, but it's not the only thing -- depending on the
underwriting, they may decline coverage because of fuse panels,
ungrounded circuits, aluminum wiring, etc.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article m,
says...
On Mar 5, 7:24 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote:
My agent didn't even mention wiring.
I'm sure most don't.

I know of three occasions recently where insurance agents have
solicited information, at policy renewal time, on electrical service
capacity and wiring type, plumbing supply type (iron vs copper), and
heating system including specifics of furnace age, fuel oil storage
(tank age, irrespective of condition).

Renewal is not always guaranteed, companies will occasionally re-
underwrite their policies on renewal, usually if they've had too many
losses of a particular type and want to identify homes at risk for
similar losses.

In one case, inspection of one property was undertaken at the
insurance agent's request/suggestion under the pretext of "making sure
that coverages were adequate".

It's possible that was the real reason for the inspection, many people
never tell their agent about remodeling or improvements, and end up
significantly underinsured.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

Makes perfect sense to me. I would expect that the older a house is, the
closer its infrastructure should be examined




wrote in message
.net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove this)
@optonline.net says...
Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the
knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for
pre 1920 wiring of all types?

Some companies do have a general age surcharge -- my own home has a
"pre-1930" surcharge at the moment, until I've finished some other
upgrades and rewrite the policy. No surcharge for having K&T.

Many companies have a very general guideline such as "wiring that is
obsolete, deteriorated, or in need of replacement." K&T is one obvious
thing to look for, but it's not the only thing -- depending on the
underwriting, they may decline coverage because of fuse panels,
ungrounded circuits, aluminum wiring, etc.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

RBM wrote:
Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how
much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how
meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T
held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot,
wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this
stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the
K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its
condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that
as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less
demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my
opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived
notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise
there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim


I agree completely.

Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold"
solder joint from the start.

--
bud--

On Mar 8, 6:53?pm, Bud-- wrote:
RBM wrote:
Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how
much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how
meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T
held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot,
wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this
stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the
K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its
condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that
as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less
demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my
opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived
notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise
there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim

I agree completely.

Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold"
solder joint from the start.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

splder detoriates over time, espically if the joint gets hot.

wrote:
On Mar 8, 6:53?pm, Bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:

Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how
much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how
meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T
held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot,
wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this
stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the
K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its
condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that
as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less
demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my
opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived
notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise
there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim

I agree completely.

Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold"
solder joint from the start.



splder detoriates over time, espically if the joint gets hot.


Solder was used for a long time before wirenuts. I have see only 2
failures. Both were "cold" joints (defective) when they were made.

But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with
your documentation of K&T fires.

--
bud--

But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with
your documentation of K&T fires.
-


HOW DOES ONE INSPECT EVERY JOINT that are buried in walls, mostl
likely behind lathe and plaster"?

Is living without grounds a good idea?

have you seen insulation detoriate with time?

I have it failed in a cieling mounted light here and could of easily
burned down our home.

how old is your vehicle?

Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to a stump





"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:
On Mar 8, 6:53?pm, Bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:

Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an
impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was
how
much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how
meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including
K&T
held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold,
hot,
wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy
this
stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of
the
K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with
its
condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize
that
as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of
less
demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my
opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a
perceived
notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires,
otherwise
there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim

I agree completely.

Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold"
solder joint from the start.



splder detoriates over time, espically if the joint gets hot.


Solder was used for a long time before wirenuts. I have see only 2
failures. Both were "cold" joints (defective) when they were made.

But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with your
documentation of K&T fires.

--
bud--

RBM wrote:
Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to a stump

Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old, but
I guess I'm "unusual."

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel