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wiring question Knob and Tube
I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our
underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to
secure wiring fished inside of walls wrote in message ps.com... I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 5, 9:30�am, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to secure wiring fished inside of walls wrote in message ps.com... I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. *Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) *inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. *The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. *Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/ if you can see it remove it! |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On 5 Mar 2007 06:33:15 -0800, "
wrote: On Mar 5, 9:30?am, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Disconnecting old wiring is fine. It can be left in place. You don't need to secure wiring fished inside of walls wrote in message ps.com... I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. ur underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) )nspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. he first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. o I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/ if you can see it remove it! I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:45:17 -0600, Deke wrote:
I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/ I would be impressed, and like it. if you can see it remove it! I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us. Just shows how old the house is. I like that. BTW is an inspector unqualified just because he doesn't note K&T. AIUI, it's still legal. Does he fill out a detailed report, or is he only supposed to note violatons? |
wiring question Knob and Tube
|
wiring question Knob and Tube
House inspectors are not electrical inspectors. They usually note anything
that needs attention or can cost you money to repair or upgrade. The good ones will recognize violations too "mm" wrote in message ... On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:45:17 -0600, Deke wrote: I would remove ALL the exposed knob and tube, even though its disconnected. Makes selling your home easier in the future/ I would be impressed, and like it. if you can see it remove it! I agree. That stuff is scary for most of us. Just shows how old the house is. I like that. BTW is an inspector unqualified just because he doesn't note K&T. AIUI, it's still legal. Does he fill out a detailed report, or is he only supposed to note violatons? |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
wrote: I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
The K&T wiring is not necessarily something the inspector missed. Perhaps
he just didn't see any problems with it. Answers to your questions: 1. no 2. no -- Steve Barker wrote in message ps.com... I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin |
wiring question Knob and Tube
It's worth $2 a pound if you burn the insulation off of it. That's one
reason to remove it. So far, I've pulled about 50 lbs of copper out of the two houses I'm doing right now. -- Steve Barker wrote in message ps.com... I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin |
wiring question Knob and Tube
cavedweller wrote:
On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote: wrote: I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
wiring question Knob and Tube
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical
information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose people's "cavedweller" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote: wrote: I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 5, 5:35 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose Agreed as well. My recent experience was in response to an insurance company concern where their report had simply shown a check mark in the "Yes" box beside K&T wiring. In my case, however, the service panel had already been upgraded to 200 A and current code wiring for the major circuits had been installed previously. I requested, and paid for, a provincial agency (Ontario ESA) inspection and, on the basis of their assessment, had some relatively minor modifications made, including the addition of some GF outlets for protection. The major concern was therefore only for the remaining lighting circuits. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the
knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for pre 1920 wiring of all types? "cavedweller" wrote in message oups.com... On Mar 5, 5:35 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose Agreed as well. My recent experience was in response to an insurance company concern where their report had simply shown a check mark in the "Yes" box beside K&T wiring. In my case, however, the service panel had already been upgraded to 200 A and current code wiring for the major circuits had been installed previously. I requested, and paid for, a provincial agency (Ontario ESA) inspection and, on the basis of their assessment, had some relatively minor modifications made, including the addition of some GF outlets for protection. The major concern was therefore only for the remaining lighting circuits. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 5, 5:35�pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as *many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose people's "cavedweller" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 5, 3:11 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote: wrote: I just bought a new (old) house and I have a couple of questions. *Our underqualified although state licensed (Wisconsin) *inspector missed some extremely obvious Knob and Tube wiring which turns out to be half the house so I'm rewiring most of the house. *The first question is: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? The second question is: I'm running armoured cable to the attic to replace the Knob and Tube and the cable is running in an open cavity between two bedrooms. *Do I have to open the wall and secure this every four feet? Thanks, Gavin * * Are you sure you want to replace it? * Really. *K&T is a very good wiring system. *You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. *Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - some negativity is because of fires caused since the connections arent in boxes buried in walls.......... insurance doesnt like K&T because of increased fire risk from a system likely a 100 years old. what other things do we own that last a 100 years? |
wiring question Knob and Tube
BUT only if he's going to insulate OR someone already did. The OP didn't
mention insulation. -- Steve Barker "Nate Nagel" wrote in message ... Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
wiring question Knob and Tube
My agent didn't even mention wiring.
I'm sure most don't. -- Steve Barker "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for pre 1920 wiring of all types? |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On 2007-03-05, RBM wrote:
I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose We have a rental property we bought back in '94 that was built in 1923 give or take and it came to us with nothing but K&T wiring and a whole host of other more serious problems such as really bad & leaking roof, plumbing that was leaking on both the hot-n-cold and sewer.. Anyway, we had to get hazard (big $$) insurance since nobody would otherwise give us a policy.. We quickly found that the majority of the house had been wired into a SINGLE K&T circuit and that had I fired up a larger sized microwave oven we probably would have started charring wires in the attic.. We ended up re-doing the entire wiring system and ditched all of it -- it was a major hack job! Once we faxed a copy of the county inspectors closed-out permit showing replaced plumbing, electric, etc -- we were able to get a good (and cheap) insurance policy that was 10x cheaper than the hazard variety. YMMV! |
wiring question Knob and Tube
I think that the point here is that your house's infrastructure was in poor
condition and as such it's in danger of fire, flood etc. Age alone does not make wiring bad or dangerous. A house built in 23' could have wiring types other than K&T, which in a poorly kept house, could deteriorate as badly or worse than the K&T. In fact, in the book " Old Electrical Wiring" by David Shapiro, he writes there is evidence that K&T was used in the 1980's in New Orleans, in areas that flooded frequently, specifically because it held up under those conditions. "Rick F." wrote in message ... On 2007-03-05, RBM wrote: I'm sure insurance companies base their concern in part by statistical information regarding old wiring. The problem with K&T is that it's easily recognized as "old wiring" with little to determine its actual age, which dates anywhere from the late 1800's into the 1960's and in rare instances later. Rather then judge its present condition, it's easier to condemn it, as many people do largely out of ignorance. Armor cable of various types has been in use from just before 1900 and a variety of non metallic cables not long after that, neither seems to rate the same negative attention paid to K&T, which I'd attribute to the general inability to distinguish its age. Today, we use a grounded electrical system, and as none of these old wiring methods had grounds or at least adequate ones, IMO, it would make sense to install new wiring as the opportunity arose We have a rental property we bought back in '94 that was built in 1923 give or take and it came to us with nothing but K&T wiring and a whole host of other more serious problems such as really bad & leaking roof, plumbing that was leaking on both the hot-n-cold and sewer.. Anyway, we had to get hazard (big $$) insurance since nobody would otherwise give us a policy.. We quickly found that the majority of the house had been wired into a SINGLE K&T circuit and that had I fired up a larger sized microwave oven we probably would have started charring wires in the attic.. We ended up re-doing the entire wiring system and ditched all of it -- it was a major hack job! Once we faxed a copy of the county inspectors closed-out permit showing replaced plumbing, electric, etc -- we were able to get a good (and cheap) insurance policy that was 10x cheaper than the hazard variety. YMMV! |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On 2007-03-06, RBM wrote:
I think that the point here is that your house's infrastructure was in poor condition and as such it's in danger of fire, flood etc. Age alone does not make wiring bad or dangerous. A house built in 23' could have wiring types other than K&T, which in a poorly kept house, could deteriorate as badly or worse than the K&T. In fact, in the book " Old Electrical Wiring" by David Shapiro, he writes there is evidence that K&T was used in the 1980's in New Orleans, in areas that flooded frequently, specifically because it held up under those conditions. Point taken.. This place we bought was in fact very poorly maintained over the years -- of course we got a good price on it and would buy another one if given the opportunity (8- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:48:39 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote: House inspectors are not electrical inspectors. They usually note anything that needs attention or can cost you money to repair or upgrade. The good ones will recognize violations too Thanks. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 5, 7:24 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote:
My agent didn't even mention wiring. I'm sure most don't. I know of three occasions recently where insurance agents have solicited information, at policy renewal time, on electrical service capacity and wiring type, plumbing supply type (iron vs copper), and heating system including specifics of furnace age, fuel oil storage (tank age, irrespective of condition). In one case, inspection of one property was undertaken at the insurance agent's request/suggestion under the pretext of "making sure that coverages were adequate". If they don't ask, then I suggest you don't tell. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Nate Nagel wrote:
Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced. IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme. Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others. -- bud-- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Bud-- wrote:
SNIP http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others. -- bud-- Bookmarked !!! What a great find! I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin: "Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view, knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to the original design." HaHa A "pre-emptive move" based on little more than hot air. Jim |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!
I'm keeping a copy for future debates "Bud--" wrote in message ... Nate Nagel wrote: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced. IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme. Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others. -- bud-- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 6, 3:41�pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!! I'm keeping a copy for future debates "Bud--" wrote in message ... Nate Nagel wrote: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? * *Are you sure you want to replace it? * Really. *K&T is a very good wiring system. *You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. *Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced. IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme. Wellllll... *most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Anyone fighting the K&T issue. How old is you car? Appliances in home? Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment they have their home/ |
wiring question Knob and Tube
People generally replace things when they no longer function properly or as
originally intended. Unlike appliances and automobiles, wiring systems have no moving parts. a better analogy might be an antique vase or painting, which if kept in the proper environment should last a very long time. Some old wiring systems, including K&T are not in good working order and should be replaced. Some have been modified in ways that make them dangerous, and should be replaced. Some are in perfectly good working condition, and can be left to do what they've been doing wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 6, 3:41?pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!! I'm keeping a copy for future debates "Bud--" wrote in message ... Nate Nagel wrote: Do I have to remove all of the dead knob and tube wiring? Are you sure you want to replace it? Really. K&T is a very good wiring system. You would not put any new in, but assuming what is there has the capacity for what you need, why replace it? Agreed. Seems most of the impetus for replacement comes from anal insurance companies and their threat of policy cancellation. What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced. IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme. Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Anyone fighting the K&T issue. How old is you car? Appliances in home? Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment they have their home/ |
wiring question Knob and Tube
I can't imagine not wanting good insulation, esp. with fuel costs the
way they are today. I'll be doing my upstairs as soon as it warms up enough to rewire. The second floor of my house, which has uninsulated frame walls, is a good 5 degrees colder (62 vs. 67 degrees) than the downstairs, which is masonry - and it's only in the mid-30s here. In my case it's not an issue that there's K&T in the walls; the wiring is old cloth covered non-metallic. the issue is that the wiring is ungrounded and I want to split the floor into two different circuits and add the now-required bathroom circuit, and just don't want to mess around fishing wire through cellulose. nate On Mar 5, 7:22 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote: BUT only if he's going to insulate OR someone already did. The OP didn't mention insulation. -- Steve Barker "Nate Nagel" wrote in message ... Wellllll... most K&T is not rated to have insulation blown around it, so that pretty much mandates replacement in exterior wall cavities, in my book. nate |
wiring question Knob and Tube
RBM wrote:
Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!! I wish I was that smart. The link came Phil Munro in a post to this newsgroup about a half year ago. The other link Phil posted is: http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm which is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because tne insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal". But I'm sure this is all made irrelevant by hallerb's voluminous records of fires caused by K&T wiring. -- bud-- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression
on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot, wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim "Bud--" wrote in message .. . RBM wrote: Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!! I wish I was that smart. The link came Phil Munro in a post to this newsgroup about a half year ago. The other link Phil posted is: http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm which is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because tne insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal". But I'm sure this is all made irrelevant by hallerb's voluminous records of fires caused by K&T wiring. -- bud-- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove this)
@optonline.net says... Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for pre 1920 wiring of all types? Some companies do have a general age surcharge -- my own home has a "pre-1930" surcharge at the moment, until I've finished some other upgrades and rewrite the policy. No surcharge for having K&T. Many companies have a very general guideline such as "wiring that is obsolete, deteriorated, or in need of replacement." K&T is one obvious thing to look for, but it's not the only thing -- depending on the underwriting, they may decline coverage because of fuse panels, ungrounded circuits, aluminum wiring, etc. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Braze your own bicycle frames. See http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html |
wiring question Knob and Tube
In article m,
says... On Mar 5, 7:24 pm, "Steve Barker" wrote: My agent didn't even mention wiring. I'm sure most don't. I know of three occasions recently where insurance agents have solicited information, at policy renewal time, on electrical service capacity and wiring type, plumbing supply type (iron vs copper), and heating system including specifics of furnace age, fuel oil storage (tank age, irrespective of condition). Renewal is not always guaranteed, companies will occasionally re- underwrite their policies on renewal, usually if they've had too many losses of a particular type and want to identify homes at risk for similar losses. In one case, inspection of one property was undertaken at the insurance agent's request/suggestion under the pretext of "making sure that coverages were adequate". It's possible that was the real reason for the inspection, many people never tell their agent about remodeling or improvements, and end up significantly underinsured. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Braze your own bicycle frames. See http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html |
wiring question Knob and Tube
Makes perfect sense to me. I would expect that the older a house is, the
closer its infrastructure should be examined wrote in message .net... In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove this) @optonline.net says... Clearly K&T has issues, such as blown insulation, but I'm bothered by the knee-jerk reaction to it. Where's the checkmark on the insurance form for pre 1920 wiring of all types? Some companies do have a general age surcharge -- my own home has a "pre-1930" surcharge at the moment, until I've finished some other upgrades and rewrite the policy. No surcharge for having K&T. Many companies have a very general guideline such as "wiring that is obsolete, deteriorated, or in need of replacement." K&T is one obvious thing to look for, but it's not the only thing -- depending on the underwriting, they may decline coverage because of fuse panels, ungrounded circuits, aluminum wiring, etc. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Braze your own bicycle frames. See http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html |
wiring question Knob and Tube
RBM wrote:
Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot, wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim I agree completely. Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold" solder joint from the start. -- bud-- |
wiring question Knob and Tube
On Mar 8, 6:53?pm, Bud-- wrote:
RBM wrote: Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot, wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim I agree completely. Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold" solder joint from the start. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - splder detoriates over time, espically if the joint gets hot. |
wiring question Knob and Tube
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wiring question Knob and Tube
But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with your documentation of K&T fires. - HOW DOES ONE INSPECT EVERY JOINT that are buried in walls, mostl likely behind lathe and plaster"? Is living without grounds a good idea? have you seen insulation detoriate with time? I have it failed in a cieling mounted light here and could of easily burned down our home. how old is your vehicle? |
wiring question Knob and Tube
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wiring question Knob and Tube
RBM wrote:
Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to a stump Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old, but I guess I'm "unusual." :) nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
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