I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With 200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable). The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a 100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

IMO, I would just leave it as is, and let a buyer do whatever he wants to
upgrade it. The existing wiring was legal when installed and K&T is still
recognized by the NEC. Clearly the service and wiring should be replaced,
simply because of its age, but by the person who needs it done.



"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water
pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the
ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It is
obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no
violation



"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

Thanks for super prompt reply. I'm a bit confused about your comment that
as long as the outlets are non grounding type. Does that mean just two
prong outlet with no ground hole? If I wanted to replace outlet with 3-prong
is that a violation then and is that when I would run a ground wire to the
water line? Thanks again. John


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water
pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the
ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It is
obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no
violation



"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube
wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would
also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer
for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp
circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work.
I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and
nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below
and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

The NEW owner probably couldnt get homeowners insurance and ANYONE you
try selling too is going to have the same issues. Plus you now MUST
disclose this problem to all perspective buyers!

You would of MUCH better off discounting the home price by the cost of
rewiring and selling the home. This isnt just a problem for THIS BUYER
its now a problem for all buyers!

Incidently the marginal cost between a 100 amp and 200 amp service
upgrade is VERY little....... I once went from 60 to 100 amps and now
need a 200 amp upgrade.

That difference is likley only a couple hundred bucks.......

What was sale price of home? What was rewire cost?

Sadly you cant fix K&T to make it insurance OK............

Sate farm will NEVER insure a home purchased today with K&T I asked my
agent..........

Correct, as long as the outlet doesn't have the ground hole, it's legal, but
if you install outlets with the ground hole, there needs to be a ground
conductor attached to it



"John F. F." wrote in message
...


Thanks for super prompt reply. I'm a bit confused about your comment that
as long as the outlets are non grounding type. Does that mean just two
prong outlet with no ground hole? If I wanted to replace outlet with
3-prong
is that a violation then and is that when I would run a ground wire to the
water line? Thanks again. John


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water
pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the
ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It
is
obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no
violation



"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used
as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube
wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would
also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due
to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor.
With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer
for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp
circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry
cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work.
I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to
a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and
nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below
and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable snip .



FWIW ... At $40K, is perhaps most of the value in the land? If so, then
I'd be wary of the buyer that's just looking for a way to get the price
down ( a buyer might be buying to demolish and rebuild ... that's what
going on around here). But first, if you haven't already done so, you
really need to get an appraisal done to establish the value as is. And
if it was me I'd avoid all that electrical and whatever else, and sell
as is ... with my lawyer taking over once I had a written offer that I
liked in my hand.

FWIW: Last year I had the old side of the house rewired (was knob and
tube) in order to get insurance renewed. Two story 1911 home ... cost
was $6000 cdn and the 100A breaker panel was previously installed ...
$500. I am just now finishing up patching and painting ... walls and
ceilings are full of circular 4" holes to run the new wiring. So
there's more to the rewiring than just the wiring. Or ... if you go
ahead with the wiring and aren't prepared to do the patching and
painting, then cost that in too.

So from my experience, I'd sell as is. Now if it was $650,000 property,
that might make a difference :-)

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 15:03:56 -0500, Charlie Morgan wrote:

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:17:10 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water
pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the
ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It is
obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no
violation


This is REALLY bad advice. You cannot use cold water pipes as your ground.

I agree. DO NOT use the water pipes. You could run a green wire to
all the outlets, but DO NOT use the water pipes. Running the green
wire may not be up to code in many areas, although it will work
perfectly well. That wire needs to start at the main panel and
connect to the ground (where ground rod connects in the panel).

Unless the buyer does not need any sort of loan to buy, the wiring will have to
be replaced. If they need financing, they will also need insurance, and that
won't happen with Knob & Tube wiring.

Depends on the state. Some states dont disprove it from what i know.
When I worked with an electrician, the city did not ban K&T. It was
actually a very safe system.

The best bet would be to replace the old fuse panel with a 100 or 200A
panel, then run new wiring and outlets to the kitchen appliances and
washing machine area, and maybe the heating system. Leave the
lighting wiring alone, as well as outlets in bedrooms and such. If
you must replace outlets in those rooms, use the no-ground type.
Lighting really dont need grounds, and most outlets in bedrooms,
living room, etc are just used to plug in vacuum, radio, tv, hairdryer
etc. These things usually dont have a ground anyhow. The bathroom
should have a GFI installed.

There is nothing inherently bad about K&T wiring if it is in good condition, but
there isn't an insurance company anywhere that I know of that will write a new
policy for a house wired that way. 200 amp service is pretty much the minimum
standard these days for good reason, and the difference between rewiring for 100
or 200 amps is not enough to quibble over.

CWM

connecting ground wires to a cold water pipe BAD.

Imagine the water meter removed for some reason or poor connection
electrically thru meter, say from rubber washers......

A electrical fault to ground

Touching any part of the water system can KILL, like stepping in a
shower!

sell them home as is or discount the cost of rewiring, or tear home
down cause you cant sell it...........

"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing anything.

Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water
pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the
ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It is
obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no
violation



"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube
wiring a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would
also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer
for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and
nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing anything.

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing anything.

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T wiring.
I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over
thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T in
their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance


wrote in message
ups.com...

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but
so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing
anything.

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
This is REALLY bad advice. You cannot use cold water pipes as your
ground.

This is not necessarily true.

Unless the buyer does not need any sort of loan to buy, the wiring will
have to
be replaced. If they need financing, they will also need insurance, and
that
won't happen with Knob & Tube wiring.

This is not true either. Many companies don't ask or don't have a problem
with properly maintained K&T wiring.

There is nothing inherently bad about K&T wiring if it is in good
condition, but
there isn't an insurance company anywhere that I know of that will write a
new
policy for a house wired that way.

You need to look some more.

Steve Barker

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:00:40 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T wiring.
I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over
thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T in
their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance

I'm not in Westchester County, I'm in Monroe County, NY, and I do have
homeowner's insurance for full replacement value of my house, built in
1930, which I'm also sure has K&T throughout the house (we moved in
here in April 2003 and met a really nice 60 amp circuit breaker box,
which we immediately upgraded to 200 amps). Yes, I'd love to replace
it all, but I'm first putting in new circuits as a way of taking
entire areas of the house off of what I consider to be overloaded
circuits.

A house with K&T is not unsaleable necessarily. Take a chill pill,
hallberb.

wrote in message
oups.com...

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but
so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing
anything.

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

Your house is typical of early twentieth century houses, and like you,
incrementally folks disconnect sections of the old wiring and run new
wiring. Fact is K&T wiring has held up quite well, and if the powers that be
didn't change to a grounded system around the fifties, we probably wouldn't
be having this conversation



"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:00:40 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T
wiring.
I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over
thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T in
their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance

I'm not in Westchester County, I'm in Monroe County, NY, and I do have
homeowner's insurance for full replacement value of my house, built in
1930, which I'm also sure has K&T throughout the house (we moved in
here in April 2003 and met a really nice 60 amp circuit breaker box,
which we immediately upgraded to 200 amps). Yes, I'd love to replace
it all, but I'm first putting in new circuits as a way of taking
entire areas of the house off of what I consider to be overloaded
circuits.

A house with K&T is not unsaleable necessarily. Take a chill pill,
hallberb.

wrote in message
roups.com...

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but
so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing
anything.

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within
five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

How does insurance know what type of wiring is in the house? When they
inspected my 1935 house they only took pictures of outside and measure
square footage outside. They never came inside.


wrote:
The NEW owner probably couldnt get homeowners insurance and ANYONE you
try selling too is going to have the same issues. Plus you now MUST
disclose this problem to all perspective buyers!

You would of MUCH better off discounting the home price by the cost of
rewiring and selling the home. This isnt just a problem for THIS BUYER
its now a problem for all buyers!

Incidently the marginal cost between a 100 amp and 200 amp service
upgrade is VERY little....... I once went from 60 to 100 amps and now
need a 200 amp upgrade.

That difference is likley only a couple hundred bucks.......

What was sale price of home? What was rewire cost?

Sadly you cant fix K&T to make it insurance OK............

Sate farm will NEVER insure a home purchased today with K&T I asked my
agent..........

When "because charlie morgan says" becomes the bible on electrical wiring,
I'll listen to you, but until then I tend to go by the "National Electric
Code", which backs up my statements in the section referenced


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C


It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That
has been
true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but
they are
not allowed as a point for grounding wiring.

CWM

KLS wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:00:40 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T wiring.
I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over
thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T in
their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance
A house with K&T is not unsaleable necessarily. Take a chill pill,
hallberb.


I challenge you and espically the OP to call a major insurer like state
farm allstate etc and ask if they WILL INSURE A NEW CUSTOMER BUYING A
K&T WIRED HOME TODAY!

Someone else posted they HAD to upgrade to get rid of K&T to have
insurance, a good friend had that happen too. after his homeowners
company was sold.

insurance today is risk adverse.

I stand by my statement!

state farm is just one example they dont write new policies on K&T
homes but do keep existing customers. State farm said if theres a fire
or claim they require K&T is elminated

You can stand by your statement , and you can be wrong. I'm sure insurance
companies won't write policies on "bad wiring" regardless of the type, but
obviously there are many houses with K&T that are insured



wrote in message
oups.com...

KLS wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:00:40 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T
wiring.
I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over
thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T
in
their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance
A house with K&T is not unsaleable necessarily. Take a chill pill,
hallberb.


I challenge you and espically the OP to call a major insurer like state
farm allstate etc and ask if they WILL INSURE A NEW CUSTOMER BUYING A
K&T WIRED HOME TODAY!

Someone else posted they HAD to upgrade to get rid of K&T to have
insurance, a good friend had that happen too. after his homeowners
company was sold.

insurance today is risk adverse.

I stand by my statement!

state farm is just one example they dont write new policies on K&T
homes but do keep existing customers. State farm said if theres a fire
or claim they require K&T is elminated

RBM remove this wrote:
You can stand by your statement , and you can be wrong. I'm sure insurance
companies won't write policies on "bad wiring" regardless of the type, but
obviously there are many houses with K&T that are insured



AGAIN Call state farm and ask buying a home with K&T in perfect shape
will you provide homeowners insurance?

Then post back my agent says NO WAY!

Existing policies are not effected, but sell or try changing companies
and you lose

RBM (remove this) wrote:
Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


YOU MUST bond you water line to your main home ground, but it MUST also
use ground rods and have a ground jumper across the water meter.

But the water line is no way no how safe as the only ground!

Am I to assume you've investigated this claim with the six hundred or so
insurance companies in the US?.... or just your neighbor and your insurance
agent


wrote in message
ups.com...

RBM remove this wrote:
You can stand by your statement , and you can be wrong. I'm sure
insurance
companies won't write policies on "bad wiring" regardless of the type,
but
obviously there are many houses with K&T that are insured



AGAIN Call state farm and ask buying a home with K&T in perfect shape
will you provide homeowners insurance?

Then post back my agent says NO WAY!

Existing policies are not effected, but sell or try changing companies
and you lose

RBM remove this wrote:
Am I to assume you've investigated this claim with the six hundred or so
insurance companies in the US?.... or just your neighbor and your insurance
agent



My friend will koehler was pretty upset and reported he called about 20
companies they ALL said NO.

He unhappily had his home rewired at much expense........

I have romex and BX so I wouldnt bother calling the remaining
companies

now why dont YOU call a few and report your findings!

Has anyone suggested it was?


wrote in message
ups.com...

RBM (remove this) wrote:
Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within
five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


YOU MUST bond you water line to your main home ground, but it MUST also
use ground rods and have a ground jumper across the water meter.

But the water line is no way no how safe as the only ground!

Haller, the point is: I don't care!!! The point is YOU making these
definitive statements, based on a few accounts, as if NO ONE can get
insurance if they have K&T wiring. If you are going to be that definitive,
you have an obligation to prove it.
wrote in message
ps.com...

RBM remove this wrote:
Am I to assume you've investigated this claim with the six hundred or so
insurance companies in the US?.... or just your neighbor and your
insurance
agent



My friend will koehler was pretty upset and reported he called about 20
companies they ALL said NO.

He unhappily had his home rewired at much expense........

I have romex and BX so I wouldnt bother calling the remaining
companies

now why dont YOU call a few and report your findings!

RBM (remove this) wrote:
Has anyone suggested it was?


The OP reported no ground and wondered if he could use the water ine as
the only ground

RBM wrote:
When "because charlie morgan says" becomes the bible on electrical
wiring, I'll listen to you, but until then I tend to go by the
"National Electric Code", which backs up my statements in the section
referenced

Then your code book is wrong. The purpose of attaching a ground to a water
pipe is to ground the water pipe!

This protects the homeowner or plumber when dealing with a (possibly broken)
electrical appliance near the pipes.

Yes that's correct and if you had read the NEC 250.131c , you would find
that by attaching the water line, and ground rods, etc, together it forms
the grounding electrode system, and that a grounding conductor for a
replacement grounding outlet ,can be attached to any part of that system,
which includes the main cold water pipe extending no more than five feet
into the building



"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
When "because charlie morgan says" becomes the bible on electrical
wiring, I'll listen to you, but until then I tend to go by the
"National Electric Code", which backs up my statements in the section
referenced

Then your code book is wrong. The purpose of attaching a ground to a water
pipe is to ground the water pipe!

This protects the homeowner or plumber when dealing with a (possibly
broken) electrical appliance near the pipes.

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
news
This is not true either. Many companies don't ask or don't have a problem
with properly maintained K&T wiring.


Please name ONE, and provide cites.

I'll not humor you by providing proof. All I can tell you is there are
literally hundreds of early 1900's homes in the town i live in with K&T
wiring and I'll bet a dollar they're all insured. My wife and I have looked
personally at about a dozen as investment possibilities, and about half of
them had all or some K&T wiring. The one we ended up buying had remnants of
it, but none in use.

Believe me, i'm not uninformed on the subject. Perhaps i just live in an
area that not so ANAL about **** that don't matter.

steve

From the 2000 IRC. ( the one my jurisdiction uses) :

E3508.1.1 Metal underground water pipe.Ametal underground

water pipe in direct contact with the earth for10 feet

(3048 mm) or more and electrically continuous to the points

of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the

bonding conductors shall be considered as a grounding electrode.

Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection

to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or

filtering devices and similar equipment. A metal underground

water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional

electrode of a type specified in this section or in Section

E3508.2. The supplemental electrode shall be bonded to the

grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance

conductor, the grounded service raceway or any

grounded service enclosure.

Where the supplemental electrode is a made electrode in

accordance with Section E3508.2, that portion of the bond-

ing jumper that is the sole connection to the supplemental

grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger than

No. 6 copper wire or No. 4 aluminum wire.


--
Steve Barker


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove

wrote:

Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within
five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

RBM (remove this) wrote:
Haller, the point is: I don't care!!! The point is YOU making these
definitive statements, based on a few accounts, as if NO ONE can get
insurance if they have K&T wiring. If you are going to be that definitive,
you have an obligation to prove it.


others HERE reported they HAD to upgrade to get homeowners.........

isnt that sufficent?

anyone who questions this just call and ask espically the OP and do ask
about rates since they may not be affordable(

wrote:
For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect.
A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but so
what?
The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing anything.


when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact
remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home
with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and
even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be
disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities,
repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear


How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should
tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't
surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a
fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are
not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:


Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box



No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a
primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding
stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water
pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the
meter and the HWH)

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should

tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't
surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a
fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are
not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed.

nate

The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all
perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to
disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to
find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless
the new buyer happens to say be a electrician

quote from OP

An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube
wiring a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would
also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to

Steve Barker LT spake thus:

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
news
This is not true either. Many companies don't ask or don't have a problem
with properly maintained K&T wiring.

Please name ONE, and provide cites.

I'll not humor you by providing proof. All I can tell you is there are
literally hundreds of early 1900's homes in the town i live in with K&T
wiring and I'll bet a dollar they're all insured. My wife and I have looked
personally at about a dozen as investment possibilities, and about half of
them had all or some K&T wiring. The one we ended up buying had remnants of
it, but none in use.

Believe me, i'm not uninformed on the subject. Perhaps i just live in an
area that not so ANAL about **** that don't matter.

I can verify this as well. I work on lots of houses that were built when
knob & tube and ungrounded NM cable were the standard; all of them are
insured and would pass a local inspection.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

spake thus:

How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should

tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't
surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a
fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are
not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed.

The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all
perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to
disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to
find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless
the new buyer happens to say be a electrician

First of all, the word is "prospective". And what makes you so sure that
the (prospective) seller *must* disclose it? The report came from an
electrician hired by a prospective buyer: are you a real estate lawyer,
and can therefore tell us that this makes disclosure mandatory? I'm not,
and I can't.

Not that he shouldn't, of course; besides which, no buyer in their right
mind should buy the house before determining the type and condition of
wiring in the house.

In any case, it's far from a show-stopper for selling the house. Lots of
old houses have old wiring that should be, or has to be, replaced, and
buyers are (or should be) aware of this. It all comes down to figuring
it into the selling price.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Just my $0.02 here; I lived for neary 30 years in a neighborhood with
120 + year old homes. At one time I owned 4 rentals in additon to my
own home. All were insured. About 10 years ago I moved to a "new"
neighborhood of larger houses with larger yards; the average age of a
house here I would estimated to be "only" 80 -100 years. Many of these
homes had K&T systems making up some part of their electrical system.

I know dozens of howmowners besides myself. It surely may be
different in different areas, but I've never heard of a single
instance of an insurance co even _asking_ about what type of
wiring was in a home, and except in connection with a claim, I've
never heard of an insurance company sending someone inside a home
to inspect the wiring or anything else.

Now appraisers are a different story...
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -