N8, I could be wrong but I think that means you're living in a fire trap






"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to a
stump

Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old, but I
guess I'm "unusual."

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote:


how old is your vehicle?


You have conviced me euthanasia is a good idea.

um...er.. just curious hallerb - how old are you?

--
bud--

On Mar 10, 3:55?am, Bud-- wrote:
wrote:

how old is your vehicle?

You have conviced me euthanasia is a good idea.

um...er.. just curious hallerb - how old are you?

--
bud--

I am 50

My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

somehow this doesnt add up, perhaps its me?

The problem with most of your "points" are that you group everyone and
everything into the same mold. "All" people don't neglect their houses,
"All" K&T is not 100 years old, and in flames, "All" insurance companies
won't insure houses with... and all this from a person that believes and
posts that FPE panels and breakers are fire hazards and posts the typical "
the sky is falling" rant, regarding them... but lives with one in his own
home!!! You need to straighten out your own priorities. How old is your car?





wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 10, 3:55?am, Bud-- wrote:
wrote:

how old is your vehicle?

You have conviced me euthanasia is a good idea.

um...er.. just curious hallerb - how old are you?

--
bud--

I am 50

My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

somehow this doesnt add up, perhaps its me?

On Mar 10, 9:16?am, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
The problem with most of your "points" are that you group everyone and
everything into the same mold. "All" people don't neglect their houses,
"All" K&T is not 100 years old, and in flames, "All" insurance companies
won't insure houses with... and all this from a person that believes and
posts that FPE panels and breakers are fire hazards and posts the typical "
the sky is falling" rant, regarding them... but lives with one in his own
home!!! You need to straighten out your own priorities. How old is your car?

wrote in message

oups.com...



On Mar 10, 3:55?am, Bud-- wrote:
wrote:

how old is your vehicle?

You have conviced me euthanasia is a good idea.

um...er.. just curious hallerb - how old are you?

--
bud--

I am 50

My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

somehow this doesnt add up, perhaps its me?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

have 2005 cobalt and 2 late 90s caravans. had first estimate this week
for new main service. Must be rid of FPE panel but thinking of adding
back up NG generator easier doing it all at once.

I don't think so... house is all masonry up to 2nd floor, and I've been
systematically going through and inspecting all the wiring and replacing
when necessary. As soon as it becomes consistently warm I'm going to
rewire the whole 2nd floor...

nate

RBM wrote:
N8, I could be wrong but I think that means you're living in a fire trap

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

RBM wrote:

Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to a
stump

Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old, but I
guess I'm "unusual."

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel





--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

RBM wrote:

Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking to
a stump


Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old,
but I guess I'm "unusual."

nate


RBM wrote:

N8, I could be wrong but I think that means you're living in a fire
trap

Nate Nagel wrote:
I don't think so... house is all masonry up to 2nd floor, and I've
been
systematically going through and inspecting all the wiring and
replacing
when necessary. As soon as it becomes consistently warm I'm going to
rewire the whole 2nd floor...


I took it to mean your cars (or related their age) - a la hallerb.

--
bud--

" writes:

My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

Not everyone fits this mold. My car is 15 years old, for example. I
plan on keeping it as long as it's reliable.

On the other hand, people who *do* change their car every few years are
not doing it because they rationally decide they need that new car.
They're doing it because of ego, or status, or something not very
rational.

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

Replacing the wiring in the house isn't going to be the same sort of
visible change as buying a new car. It's money spent on something
intangible, so they may well feel differently about it.

The problem with your argument is that you're complaining that people
aren't making what to you is an obviously rational choice (replacing
K&T), using people who buy cars irrationally as your example people.

Dave

On Mar 11, 3:31�am, (Dave Martindale) wrote:
" writes:
My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

Not everyone fits this mold. *My car is 15 years old, for example. *I
plan on keeping it as long as it's reliable.

On the other hand, people who *do* change their car every few years are
not doing it because they rationally decide they need that new car.
They're doing it because of ego, or status, or something not very
rational.

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

Replacing the wiring in the house isn't going to be the same sort of
visible change as buying a new car. *It's money spent on something
intangible, so they may well feel differently about it.

The problem with your argument is that you're complaining that people
aren't making what to you is an obviously rational choice (replacing
K&T), using people who buy cars irrationally as your example people.

* * * * Dave

my point is that while in a lifetime most folks can easily spend 100s
of thousdands of dollars on new cars, while penny pinching 5 grand for
the most important investment of their life.

cars depreciate while homes appreciate.

but wiring isnt sexy, cant be seen and most people only care about
whats visible

In the lifetime of the K&T home how many paint, remodels, new carpet,
furniture $$$ have likely been spent?

probably way times more $ than the cost of a rewire...........

my wife is a see the bucks spent, myself I prefer stuff runs well.

On Mar 6, 12:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Bud-- wrote:

SNIP

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--

Bookmarked !!!

What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this
amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive
move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view,
knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus
encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to
the original design."

HaHa A "pre-emptive move" based on little more than hot air.

Jim


House inspectors know if they kill a deal, they'll never get a call
from a broker again. When you're buying a house, it's difficult to
call in an inspector from out of town (who won't be influenced by the
potential loss of business), because it will cost you big.
It's inevitable for an old house to need improvements and upgrades.
I'm really angry at the last inspector who came for my current home;
he missed a bunch of things, but I ultimately blame myself for
overlooking them, since I was involved in the inspection. When you
want a house you tend to rationalize past items in order to keep the
deal going.
I have that K&T in the attic, and the problem I have with it is mine
doesn't have a ground, and it's difficult to work with when upgrading
ceiling lights or adding fans. In addition, in my house the wires are
laying on the studs so if I have to go up into the crawl space
(rarely) unless I want to have to avoid live wires, I got to cut off
the breakers.
As far as asking an electrician to come out and give you advice, I
called one and he wanted $90 an hour portal to portal; so if he came
out and spent an hour, it would cost me nearly $300 because I live in
the country.
Also the textbook suggestion would be to maybe check with your county
building department to see if a permit is required for the work you
are planning, and if your jurisdiction permits the homewoner to
perform electrical work themselves.
You do not necessarily have to identify yourself when you call, just
to ask a rhetorical question.
That way you can have your project inspected, and you can be sure they
will re-access your property and bump up your taxes. By the nature of
your question, and the comments you made regarding how you plan to
upgrade your wiring, you are obviously wanting to do a reasonably good
job and not jeopardise your safety or your home's value.
In my experience the guys working the electrical aisle at the
homecenters are retired electricians, and offer good advice and
direction, or tell you who to ask if they don't know the answer
themselves
hope this helps

In my area, home inspectors are generally furnished by the selling realtor,
after an accepted offer. Their job is to find as many "defects" as they can,
not to kill the sale, but so the buyer can re-negotiate a lower price.
In most cases, you should never add outlets to existing K&T. When it was
installed, it did a limited number of outlets and works fine for light
loads, especially lamps and fans and such, that don't use a ground. If you
need new outlets, run new circuits





"timO'" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 6, 12:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Bud-- wrote:

SNIP

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community
Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--

Bookmarked !!!

What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this
amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive
move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view,
knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus
encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to
the original design."

HaHa A "pre-emptive move" based on little more than hot air.

Jim


House inspectors know if they kill a deal, they'll never get a call
from a broker again. When you're buying a house, it's difficult to
call in an inspector from out of town (who won't be influenced by the
potential loss of business), because it will cost you big.
It's inevitable for an old house to need improvements and upgrades.
I'm really angry at the last inspector who came for my current home;
he missed a bunch of things, but I ultimately blame myself for
overlooking them, since I was involved in the inspection. When you
want a house you tend to rationalize past items in order to keep the
deal going.
I have that K&T in the attic, and the problem I have with it is mine
doesn't have a ground, and it's difficult to work with when upgrading
ceiling lights or adding fans. In addition, in my house the wires are
laying on the studs so if I have to go up into the crawl space
(rarely) unless I want to have to avoid live wires, I got to cut off
the breakers.
As far as asking an electrician to come out and give you advice, I
called one and he wanted $90 an hour portal to portal; so if he came
out and spent an hour, it would cost me nearly $300 because I live in
the country.
Also the textbook suggestion would be to maybe check with your county
building department to see if a permit is required for the work you
are planning, and if your jurisdiction permits the homewoner to
perform electrical work themselves.
You do not necessarily have to identify yourself when you call, just
to ask a rhetorical question.
That way you can have your project inspected, and you can be sure they
will re-access your property and bump up your taxes. By the nature of
your question, and the comments you made regarding how you plan to
upgrade your wiring, you are obviously wanting to do a reasonably good
job and not jeopardise your safety or your home's value.
In my experience the guys working the electrical aisle at the
homecenters are retired electricians, and offer good advice and
direction, or tell you who to ask if they don't know the answer
themselves
hope this helps

And you're entire statement is based on the false pretense that house wiring
needs to be replaced at some predetermined interval. I think "most people"
believe their house wiring is safe, or they would repair or replace it. Age
alone does not make wiring bad or dangerous. Each building's infrastructure
should be looked when purchased and repairs made as necessary





wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 11, 3:31?am, (Dave Martindale) wrote:
" writes:
My POINT, people think nothing of replacing their vehicle every 5
years or so....... at a lifetime cost of how many hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

Not everyone fits this mold. My car is 15 years old, for example. I
plan on keeping it as long as it's reliable.

On the other hand, people who *do* change their car every few years are
not doing it because they rationally decide they need that new car.
They're doing it because of ego, or status, or something not very
rational.

But get their panties all ruffled up over investing 5 grand for a
safe, efficent, modern, on the biggest thing they own their home. That
just happens to appreciate in value.

Replacing the wiring in the house isn't going to be the same sort of
visible change as buying a new car. It's money spent on something
intangible, so they may well feel differently about it.

The problem with your argument is that you're complaining that people
aren't making what to you is an obviously rational choice (replacing
K&T), using people who buy cars irrationally as your example people.

Dave

my point is that while in a lifetime most folks can easily spend 100s
of thousdands of dollars on new cars, while penny pinching 5 grand for
the most important investment of their life.

cars depreciate while homes appreciate.

but wiring isnt sexy, cant be seen and most people only care about
whats visible

In the lifetime of the K&T home how many paint, remodels, new carpet,
furniture $$$ have likely been spent?

probably way times more $ than the cost of a rewire...........

my wife is a see the bucks spent, myself I prefer stuff runs well.

On Mar 11, 8:29�am, "timO'" wrote:
On Mar 6, 12:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:





Bud-- wrote:

SNIP

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--

* * *Bookmarked !!!

* * *What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this
amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive
move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view,
knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus
encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to
the original design."

HaHa * *A "pre-emptive move" *based on little more than hot air.

Jim

House inspectors know if they kill a deal, they'll never get a call
from a broker again. When you're buying a house, it's difficult to
call in an inspector from out of town (who won't be influenced by the
potential loss of business), because it will cost you big.
It's inevitable for an old house to need improvements and upgrades.
I'm really angry at the last inspector who came for my current home;
he missed a bunch of things, but I ultimately blame myself for
overlooking them, since I was involved in the inspection. When you
want a house you tend to rationalize past items in order to keep the
deal going.
I have that K&T in the attic, and the problem I have with it is mine
doesn't have a ground, and it's difficult to work with when upgrading
ceiling lights or adding fans. In addition, in my house the wires are
laying on the studs so if I have to go up into the crawl space
(rarely) unless I want to have to avoid live wires, I got to cut off
the breakers.
As far as asking an electrician to come out and give you advice, I
called one and he wanted $90 an hour portal to portal; so if he came
out and spent an hour, it would *cost me nearly $300 because I live in
the country.
Also the textbook suggestion would be to maybe check with your county
building department to see if a permit is required for the work you
are planning, and if your jurisdiction permits the homewoner to
perform electrical work themselves.
You do not necessarily have to identify yourself when you call, just
to ask a rhetorical question.
That way you can have your project inspected, and you can be sure they
will re-access your property and bump up your taxes. By the nature of
your question, and the comments you made regarding how you plan to
upgrade your wiring, you are obviously wanting to do a reasonably good
job and not jeopardise your safety or your home's value.
In my experience the guys working the electrical aisle at the
homecenters are retired electricians, and offer good advice and
direction, or tell you who to ask if they don't know the answer
themselves
hope this helps- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

many home inspectors are complete jerks, and have no idea what they
are doing.

example me selling home with sump pump. Inspector, You MUST have GFCI
protection!! Completely unsafe!!!

I add GFCI buyer backs out........

Second home inspector TERRIBLE you should never GFCI a sump pump!!!

I had a bunch of examples...........

home inspectors are a buyers best friend, and a sellers worst enemy.

Bud-- wrote:





RBM wrote:

Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it's like talking
to a stump



Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old,
but I guess I'm "unusual."

nate


RBM wrote:

N8, I could be wrong but I think that means you're living in a fire
trap

Nate Nagel wrote:
I don't think so... house is all masonry up to 2nd floor, and I've
been
systematically going through and inspecting all the wiring and
replacing
when necessary. As soon as it becomes consistently warm I'm going to
rewire the whole 2nd floor...


I took it to mean your cars (or related their age) - a la hallerb.

--
bud--

Well I'd be lying if I said the Stude hadn't tried to catch itself on
fire, but that was due to an aftermarket fuel pump... not the car's fault.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:29�am, "timO'" wrote:

On Mar 6, 12:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:






Bud-- wrote:

SNIP

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding
insulation was permitted some places, not in others.

--
bud--

� � �Bookmarked !!!

� � �What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this
amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive
move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view,
knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus
encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to
the original design."

HaHa � �A "pre-emptive move" �based on little more than hot air.

Jim

House inspectors know if they kill a deal, they'll never get a call
from a broker again. When you're buying a house, it's difficult to
call in an inspector from out of town (who won't be influenced by the
potential loss of business), because it will cost you big.
It's inevitable for an old house to need improvements and upgrades.
I'm really angry at the last inspector who came for my current home;
he missed a bunch of things, but I ultimately blame myself for
overlooking them, since I was involved in the inspection. When you
want a house you tend to rationalize past items in order to keep the
deal going.
I have that K&T in the attic, and the problem I have with it is mine
doesn't have a ground, and it's difficult to work with when upgrading
ceiling lights or adding fans. In addition, in my house the wires are
laying on the studs so if I have to go up into the crawl space
(rarely) unless I want to have to avoid live wires, I got to cut off
the breakers.
As far as asking an electrician to come out and give you advice, I
called one and he wanted $90 an hour portal to portal; so if he came
out and spent an hour, it would �cost me nearly $300 because I live in
the country.
Also the textbook suggestion would be to maybe check with your county
building department to see if a permit is required for the work you
are planning, and if your jurisdiction permits the homewoner to
perform electrical work themselves.
You do not necessarily have to identify yourself when you call, just
to ask a rhetorical question.
That way you can have your project inspected, and you can be sure they
will re-access your property and bump up your taxes. By the nature of
your question, and the comments you made regarding how you plan to
upgrade your wiring, you are obviously wanting to do a reasonably good
job and not jeopardise your safety or your home's value.
In my experience the guys working the electrical aisle at the
homecenters are retired electricians, and offer good advice and
direction, or tell you who to ask if they don't know the answer
themselves
hope this helps- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


many home inspectors are complete jerks, and have no idea what they
are doing.

example me selling home with sump pump. Inspector, You MUST have GFCI
protection!! Completely unsafe!!!

I add GFCI buyer backs out........

Second home inspector TERRIBLE you should never GFCI a sump pump!!!

I had a bunch of examples...........

home inspectors are a buyers best friend, and a sellers worst enemy.



I thought the inspector that came and looked at my place was pretty
good, and fair. He found lots of little greebly stuff, but I made it
clear to the seller that I wasn't going to screw him on that, I only
wanted two things checked out (a backdrafting water heater flue and a
weeping pipe, both of which he fixed for not much $$$.)

The only thing he MISSED which was not his fault was the bootlegged
grounds on the upstairs receptacles, but he would have had to physically
remove a receptacle to find it.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

There shouldn't be any "joints" within the walls.

--
Steve Barker




wrote in message
oups.com...

But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with
your documentation of K&T fires.
-


HOW DOES ONE INSPECT EVERY JOINT that are buried in walls, mostl
likely behind lathe and plaster"?

Is living without grounds a good idea?

have you seen insulation detoriate with time?

I have it failed in a cieling mounted light here and could of easily
burned down our home.

how old is your vehicle?

On Mar 11, 9:01?pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
There shouldn't be any "joints" within the walls.

--
Steve Barker

OBVIOUSLY you arent familiar with K&T ALL joints are in walls
soldered, no metal boxes, impossible to really inspect wiring.

A overheated joint from overload or solder failure can overheat and
start a fire in a wall, with wood lathe a bad fire can result.the
wiring goes thru ceramic tubes in walls, I have perrsonally seen
overheated failing joints, cracked tube, whats really bad is you cant
see things.

adding insulation is a known hazard, the wiring current ratings are
designed around free air circulation.

now add in K&T your lucky to have ONE outlet in most rooms, so the
occupants use extension cords, increasing the risk of tripping or a
fire caused by damaged extension cords.

I'm plenty familiar with it. The "joints" as you call them are in attics,
and under the house, and at the switches. I've stripped a few houses of K&T
and never found a SPLICE in the walls.

--
Steve Barker




wrote in message
oups.com...
OBVIOUSLY you arent familiar with K&T ALL joints are in walls
soldered, no metal boxes, impossible to really inspect wiring.

A overheated joint from overload or solder failure can overheat and
start a fire in a wall, with wood lathe a bad fire can result.the
wiring goes thru ceramic tubes in walls, I have perrsonally seen
overheated failing joints, cracked tube, whats really bad is you cant
see things.

adding insulation is a known hazard, the wiring current ratings are
designed around free air circulation.

now add in K&T your lucky to have ONE outlet in most rooms, so the
occupants use extension cords, increasing the risk of tripping or a
fire caused by damaged extension cords.

OH, and adding insulation is NOT a known hazard. It was an assumed one, and
has never manifested itself. I can see cloth romex being much more
dangerous.

--
Steve Barker




wrote in message
oups.com...
adding insulation is a known hazard, the wiring current ratings are
designed around free air circulation.

now add in K&T your lucky to have ONE outlet in most rooms, so the
occupants use extension cords, increasing the risk of tripping or a
fire caused by damaged extension cords.