On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote:

i didnt post any of those links......

anyone reading this just call and try to get homeowners insurance with
K&T.....call state farm.

..


first of all, there would have to be some compelling reason to call the
highest priced company in the world to begin with. And IF i did, i'm
sure they would not ask about wiring.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote:

perhaps theres a insurance company out there that takes on K&T perhaps
for a higher cost?



My agent/company didn't even ask. I'm sure most don't.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/7/2011 10:05 AM, bob haller wrote:

I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current
homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..

I call bull**** on this. Just plain and simple bull****.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/7/2011 10:05 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 7, 10:50 am, wrote:
On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
...

like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says
the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....

...

I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's
continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. These are generally
putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies;
....

Well home inspectors are natinwide, and if a homeowner EVER will sell
their home, K&T is going to be a issue to make it far harder to sell.

Again, I've just told you that is _NOT_ a problem; many of these have
been resold at fair local market values after the initial owners have
either moved up, moved away, or for other reasons...

Plus your home is likely the greatest investment any individual will
ever make.

And that has what to do with the specifics of the question????

Might as well take care of it, because someday you may want or need to
sell.

See above...

and since your group is rehapping nhomes perhaps theres a prefered
bprovider arrangement for insurance?

No.

why not find out who is insuring thoose homes and post the companies
name here......

Pick a licensed company; the organization is a 501(c) that does expedite
financing for the rehab but it's one of those "sweat equity" arrangement
w/ the prospective purchaser and part of the process is the education
they receive in learning how to and dealing with the proper procedures
for applying for the mortgage, acquiring the insurance, knowing about
taxes, etc., etc., etc., ...

We stand on the sideline and coach but do _NOT_ do the work; if they
don't get it done, they're out (after a reasonable period and remedial
education, etc., of course). There are some that for whatever reason,
simply either "don't get it" or are unwilling to follow through on the
commitment--and it _is_ hard work and an intense process.

We do tend to recommend folks to independent insurance agents/brokers
but they're not required to do that; all they have to do is get the
insurance before the mortgage company will underwrite the loan.

Any/all of the name-brand outfits can, I am quite sure, be found on the
list of underwriters. I do know for a fact of several that are carried
by your favorite example bogeyman as well as several others that have
the word "farm" in the company name/logo.

I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current
homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..

Well, that's there situation perhaps; even if so (and will grant it may
well be an issue in whatever location you are) that doesn't make it so
anywhere else.

As an aside I would think there would be room for a class action lawsuit
or at least action requesting relief from State insurance commissioner's
office or whatever the regulatory agency is there if they can show a
widespread case of refusal to underwrite on the basis of simply the
existence of K&T if it has not been shown to be out of compliance w/ the
appropriate NEC sections for same.

I will say this particular state of current residence has a long history
of a very strong Insurance Commissioner and while not overbearing to the
point of driving companies out of the state as have some excessively
one-side locations, the rules are stringent enough that insurance is not
generally difficult to acquire and compared to other locations where I
have been, quite reasonably priced.

--

On Jul 7, 2:24*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/7/2011 10:05 AM, bob haller wrote: On Jul 7, 10:50 am, *wrote:
On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
...

like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says
the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....

...

I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's
continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. *These are generally
putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies;

...

Well home inspectors are natinwide, and if a homeowner EVER will sell
their home, K&T is going to be a issue to make it far harder to sell.

Again, I've just told you that is _NOT_ a problem; many of these have
been resold at fair local market values after the initial owners have
either moved up, moved away, or for other reasons...

Plus your home is likely the greatest investment any individual will
ever make.

And that has what to do with the specifics of the question????

Might as well take care of it, because someday you may want or need to
sell.

See above...

and since your group is rehapping nhomes perhaps theres a prefered
bprovider arrangement for insurance?

No.

why not find out who is insuring thoose homes and post the companies
name here......

Pick a licensed company; the organization is a 501(c) that does expedite
financing for the rehab but it's one of those "sweat equity" arrangement
w/ the prospective purchaser and part of the process is the education
they receive in learning how to and dealing with the proper procedures
for applying for the mortgage, acquiring the insurance, knowing about
taxes, etc., etc., etc., ...

We stand on the sideline and coach but do _NOT_ do the work; if they
don't get it done, they're out (after a reasonable period and remedial
education, etc., of course). *There are some that for whatever reason,
simply either "don't get it" or are unwilling to follow through on the
commitment--and it _is_ hard work and an intense process.

We do tend to recommend folks to independent insurance agents/brokers
but they're not required to do that; all they have to do is get the
insurance before the mortgage company will underwrite the loan.

Any/all of the name-brand outfits can, I am quite sure, be found on the
list of underwriters. *I do know for a fact of several that are carried
by your favorite example bogeyman as well as several others that have
the word "farm" in the company name/logo.

I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current
homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..

Well, that's there situation perhaps; even if so (and will grant it may
well be an issue in whatever location you are) that doesn't make it so
anywhere else.

As an aside I would think there would be room for a class action lawsuit
or at least action requesting relief from State insurance commissioner's
office or whatever the regulatory agency is there if they can show a
widespread case of refusal to underwrite on the basis of simply the
existence of K&T if it has not been shown to be out of compliance w/ the
appropriate NEC sections for same.

I will say this particular state of current residence has a long history
of a very strong Insurance Commissioner and while not overbearing to the
point of driving companies out of the state as have some excessively
one-side locations, the rules are stringent enough that insurance is not
generally difficult to acquire and compared to other locations where I
have been, quite reasonably priced.

--

my best friends neighbor just had some work done their home looks much
better. I went over and admired the new sidewalk and steps and rebuilt
wood front porch.

I told owner how great it looked. he said it was expensive but they
had no choice

the cracked broken sidewalk crumbling chipped steps and rotted porch
and weak railings were spotted by their homeowners company and it was
either fix or cancel. they called around no one else would insure them
so they had the work done......

such is life with risk adverse insurance companies and i cant blame
them, fall accidents can be very expensive.

some years ago one of my customers a public school had sidewalks that
werent even, slabs had moved.

a students grandpa came to pick up his grandchild and tripped on the
bad sidewalk. he broke his hip and eventually died. last i heard the
lawsuit was at a million bucks and climbing.

dont know the final resolution they just said expensive.

the school district re did sidewalks and parking lots at all its
buildings..... took them all summer

if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid
obvious hazards?

On 7/7/2011 2:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
....

....[typical haller litany of every accident scenario in the world]...

if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid
obvious hazards?

Of course, that's why we rehab these places. But, there's no point in
spending limited resources just "for because" if there isn't a problem
just for the sake of spending money.

Just lay off the "you must because" stuff that isn't true and we can
"just get along"...

--

On Jul 7, 4:57*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/7/2011 2:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
...

...[typical haller litany of every accident scenario in the world]...

if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid
obvious hazards?

Of course, that's why we rehab these places. *But, there's no point in
spending limited resources just "for because" if there isn't a problem
just for the sake of spending money.

Just lay off the "you must because" stuff that isn't true and we can
"just get along"...

--

do you open all walls to inspect the K&T connections? Do you blow
insulation into walls etc?

Seriously if you dont open and inspect all K&T connections how do you
know each and everyone is safe and never overheated and there are NO
illegal hacked connections??

inquiring minds want to know.

On 7/7/2011 4:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/7/2011 2:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
...

...[typical haller litany of every accident scenario in the world]...

if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid
obvious hazards?

Of course, that's why we rehab these places. But, there's no point in
spending limited resources just "for because" if there isn't a problem
just for the sake of spending money.

Just lay off the "you must because" stuff that isn't true and we can
"just get along"...

--

Arguing with Haller is like arguing with a stump. Obviously he totally
ignores everything you say, and just continues to spew unsubstantiated
nonsense. My best guess is that his referenced houses with K&T were in
such bad condition, the insurance companies wouldn't touch them. Not
because they had K&T, but because it was in bad condition. It was
probably futile for the agent to try and explain this to him, so they
just gave him some story about all K&T being un-insurable.

I'll add my personal experience. Over the years I've purchased 7 homes built
between 1880 and 1920. All had active K&T to some extent along with
newer wiring. Not only was it no impediment to obtaining insurance, but
in not a single instance was I even asked about the type of wiring.
Insurance company representatives did come at look at the houses, but in
some cases, only the exteriors.



--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On 7/7/2011 5:27 PM, bob haller wrote:
....

Seriously if you dont open and inspect all K&T connections how do you
know each and everyone is safe and never overheated and there are NO
illegal hacked connections??
....

Same way as would do for conventional wiring...

--

On Jul 7, 7:35*pm, (Larry W) wrote:
I'll add my personal experience. Over the years I've purchased 7 homes built
between 1880 and 1920. All had active K&T to some extent along with
newer wiring. Not only was it no impediment to obtaining insurance, but
in not a single instance was I even asked about the type of wiring.
Insurance company representatives did come at look at the houses, but in
some cases, only the exteriors.

--
* * *The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
* * *with the average voter. * * * * * * * * (Winston Churchill)

* Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

ultimately i doesnt matter what anyone posts here..........

like my first post said call your local agents and ask i have a home
with K&T can you sell me homeowners insurance......??

the big issues are home inspector hassles, and insurance hassles.

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

even if mike was wrong and the K&T perfectly safe and effective people
looking to buy a home will likely pass on any home for sale with
K&T.....

since 90% of homebuyers demand a move in ready house with no repairs
needed, just having K&T has reduced your shoppers by 90%

note many here like me would be happy to buy a fixer upperbut we are a
small select group that doesnt reflect most home buyers nationwide..

On 7/6/2011 10:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do
renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried
violations

the older a home is the longer it had to get hacked wiring......


So require all older homes be demolished.

--
bud--

On 7/8/2011 11:17 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/6/2011 10:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do
renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried
violations

the older a home is the longer it had to get hacked wiring......


So require all older homes be demolished.


Yes, lets just destroy everything built before '78. We will solve the
K&T problem, the aluminum wire problem, AND the lead paint problem. And
all we'll be left with is a bunch of cheap ****ing junk that sucks to
look at.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jul 9, 1:02*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/8/2011 11:17 PM, bud-- wrote:

On 7/6/2011 10:47 PM, bob haller wrote:
and the OPs homew may be full of such hazards buried in places they
cant be seen

True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do
renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried
violations

the older a home is the longer it had to get hacked wiring......

So require all older homes be demolished.

Yes, lets just destroy everything built before '78. *We will solve the
K&T problem, the aluminum wire problem, AND the lead paint problem. *And
all we'll be left with is a bunch of cheap ****ing junk that sucks to
look at.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

with all the laws for handling lead, alunimum wiring and lead paint,
to say nothing of asbestos some older homes are best torn down because
repairing just costs too much.

its better to do regular maintence and upgrades on your home each year
than let things go and be overwhelmed by costs.

so i need all new wiring with new service entrance and breaker box?
but i also need a new roof? its only 50 years old how could it be worn
out? but your also telling me i need all the galavanized water lines
replaced? they are fine the trickle flow doesnt bother me i am a
patient person. 5 minutes to fill a cup is OK... what my cast iron
sewer lines are bad too? doesnt cast iron last forever? the city has
cited me for bad sidewalks? well i will put up a sign dont walk on
them if your afraid of falling....... nope the furnce cant be bad its
a gravity model from when the house was built its like a member o the
family...

homes arent static they need regular upgrades

in the last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car

On 7/9/2011 3:04 PM, bob haller wrote:
....
with all the laws for handling lead, alunimum wiring and lead paint,
to say nothing of asbestos some older homes are best torn down because
repairing just costs too much.
....

Most portions of all of which are also _far_ too stringent adding way
more cost than any possible benefit...

--

On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:
in the last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car


How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy

On 7/9/2011 5:20 PM, RBM wrote:
On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:
in the last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car


How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy


Yeah, i was kind of wondering about that analogy. One is a machine that
wears out and the other is a house. Some people are still using word
perfect on dos 3.2 machines. If it still writes a letter for you.....

The guy is never gonna admit he's a dick and wrong.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jul 9, 6:20*pm, RBM wrote:
On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:

in the *last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car

How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy

what losses can a malfunction of a vehicle or homes electrical system
risk? both can cause accident or death

over the years both vehicles and homes electrical systems have
experienced significant safety upgrades.

the big difference between a vehicle and your home?????/

vehicles depreciate and become far less valuable over time.

homes usually increase over time and are the biggest investment most
people make in a lifetime

On 7/10/2011 12:21 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 9, 6:20 pm, wrote:
On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:

in the last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car

How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy

what losses can a malfunction of a vehicle or homes electrical system
risk? both can cause accident or death

over the years both vehicles and homes electrical systems have
experienced significant safety upgrades.

the big difference between a vehicle and your home?????/

vehicles depreciate and become far less valuable over time.

homes usually increase over time and are the biggest investment most
people make in a lifetime

Really!

On Jul 10, 7:46*am, RBM wrote:
On 7/10/2011 12:21 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 9, 6:20 pm, *wrote:
On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:

in the *last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car

How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy

what losses can a malfunction of a vehicle or homes electrical system
risk? both can cause accident or death

over the years both vehicles and homes electrical systems have
experienced significant safety upgrades.

the big difference between a vehicle and your home?????/

vehicles depreciate and become far less valuable over time.

homes usually increase over time and are the biggest investment most
people make in a lifetime

* * Really!-

well up till the current economic dump homes over time always went up
in value.

the crash of home values in the US is unprecendented

On Jul 10, 7:46*am, RBM wrote:
On 7/10/2011 12:21 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 9, 6:20 pm, *wrote:
On 7/9/2011 4:05 PM, bob haller wrote:

in the *last 70 to 100 years how many vehicles have you purchased?

now compare that cost to new wiring........

wiring is way cheaper than a new car

How many moving, wearing parts are in an average car?
How many moving, wearing parts are in an insulated copper conductor?
Totally moronic analogy

what losses can a malfunction of a vehicle or homes electrical system
risk? both can cause accident or death

over the years both vehicles and homes electrical systems have
experienced significant safety upgrades.

the big difference between a vehicle and your home?????/

vehicles depreciate and become far less valuable over time.

homes usually increase over time and are the biggest investment most
people make in a lifetime

* * Really!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

just think this topic will be coming up again soon..... so we can do
this all over again.....

bob haller posted for all of us...




incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.


Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

On Jul 11, 1:28*pm, Tekkie® wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...



incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...



incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.


Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is "extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--

On Jul 12, 11:29*am, bud-- wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, *wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is "extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

On Jul 13, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:
On 7/13/2011 8:17 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 12, 11:29 am, *wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, * *wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is "extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show some
documentation, pictures, etc. of all these "burned electrical
connections" from K&T.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously you havent been around K&T.


Connections were made in walls, with no access after the plaster walls
went up.

This introduced 2 HAZARDS........

a connection could overheat and being inaccessible it cant be seen or
inspected

the connection may be around something that can burn, like insulation,
wood etc....

K&T was a good system when installed, but its aged now.

On 7/13/2011 3:22 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 7/13/2011 8:17 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 12, 11:29 am, wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is "extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show some
documentation, pictures, etc. of all these "burned electrical
connections" from K&T.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously you havent been around K&T.


Connections were made in walls, with no access after the plaster walls
went up.

This introduced 2 HAZARDS........

a connection could overheat and being inaccessible it cant be seen or
inspected

the connection may be around something that can burn, like insulation,
wood etc....

K&T was a good system when installed, but its aged now.

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show any documentation, pictures, etc. you can find to back up your statements.

On 7/13/2011 3:20 PM, RBM wrote:
On 7/13/2011 3:22 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 7/13/2011 8:17 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 12, 11:29 am, wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the
inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is
Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is
"extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show some
documentation, pictures, etc. of all these "burned electrical
connections" from K&T.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously you havent [sic] been around K&T.

Geez Roy - what kind of electrician are you that hasn't been around K&T???

I have "been around K&T". I have run across one bad concealed
connection. I don't remember any "hacked" K&T. Maybe it is a
Pennsylvania thing.



Connections were made in walls, with no access after the plaster walls
went up.

This introduced 2 HAZARDS........

a connection could overheat and being inaccessible it cant be seen or
inspected

the connection may be around something that can burn, like insulation,
wood etc....

K&T was a good system when installed, but its aged now.

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show any
documentation, pictures, etc. you can find to back up your statements.

There has to be documentation of all the probably thousands of fires
caused by all haller's bad K&T, but haller has a problem with documentation.

Like his link to a report from the "Pennsylvania Department of Community
and Economic Development" that says "properly installed and unaltered
K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard", from an agency that does not
"replace K&T at every opportunity", and insulates over K&T. And in
haller's own state.

And his link that said "the wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which
is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly
different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky -
if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you
are going to get a backup at that junction."

haller does, however, have a very active Ouija board from which he gets
a lot of his information. Would a video of the Ouija board in action be
OK Roy?

--
bud--

On 7/14/2011 10:20 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/13/2011 3:20 PM, RBM wrote:
On 7/13/2011 3:22 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 7/13/2011 8:17 AM, bob haller wrote:





On Jul 12, 11:29 am, wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the
inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is
Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never
been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to
with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is
"extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show some
documentation, pictures, etc. of all these "burned electrical
connections" from K&T.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously you havent [sic] been around K&T.

Geez Roy - what kind of electrician are you that hasn't been around K&T???

I have "been around K&T". I have run across one bad concealed
connection. I don't remember any "hacked" K&T. Maybe it is a
Pennsylvania thing.



Connections were made in walls, with no access after the plaster walls
went up.

This introduced 2 HAZARDS........

a connection could overheat and being inaccessible it cant be seen or
inspected

the connection may be around something that can burn, like insulation,
wood etc....

K&T was a good system when installed, but its aged now.

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show any
documentation, pictures, etc. you can find to back up your statements.

There has to be documentation of all the probably thousands of fires
caused by all haller's bad K&T, but haller has a problem with
documentation.

Like his link to a report from the "Pennsylvania Department of Community
and Economic Development" that says "properly installed and unaltered
K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard", from an agency that does not
"replace K&T at every opportunity", and insulates over K&T. And in
haller's own state.

And his link that said "the wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which
is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly
different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky -
if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you
are going to get a backup at that junction."

haller does, however, have a very active Ouija board from which he gets
a lot of his information. Would a video of the Ouija board in action be
OK Roy?

My personal belief is that Haller lives on a street with dilapidated old
houses where nobody has the funds to upgrade or do proper repairs. In
his narrow view of the world, he sees all houses like those around him.
Despite the fact that you've pointed out to him 9000 times that K&T is
still recognized in the newest NEC,HE CAN'T HEAR YOU.

Yes, as an electrician since 1972, and second generation as well, I've
seen K&T a time or two. What interested me most about the stuff, from
the first time I came across it, was the very fact that it holds up so
much better than many types of wiring that came later. That, and the
fact that it was so labor intensive to install,and really was a work of
art. In today's world with grounded systems and the labor involved , K&T
isn't practical to install, but I've never seen any reason to leave the
few outlets connected to it for a lamp or two, which isn't to say that
new, additional circuits shouldn't be run to facilitate new equipment.
And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

On Jul 14, 1:38*pm, RBM wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:20 AM, bud-- wrote:



On 7/13/2011 3:20 PM, RBM wrote:
On 7/13/2011 3:22 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 7/13/2011 8:17 AM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 12, 11:29 am, wrote:
On 7/11/2011 4:54 PM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:28 pm, wrote:
bob haller posted for all of us...

incidently some K&T was found on a holmes on homes show. the
inspect
rebuild house show.

mike holmes said unsafe and it was all ripped out.

Yeah, he was commenting on the "repairs" to the K&T Also this is
Canada.

Also snip your posts...

--
Tekkie

I wonder what percentage of ALL K&T still in use today has never
been
modified? I bet near all has been modified over the years.

Just consult your Ouija board like you have in the past.

"Modified"? Probably not many systems that have not been added to
with
other wiring.

And K&T is still in the NEC. One of the permitted uses is
"extensions of
existing installations".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well modern electrical systems can have every electrical connection
checked by opening a workbox or fixture

With K&T there are no boxes to open, open a wall for another reason
sometimes you discover a overheated burned electrical connection
buried in the wall. where it could easily start a fire.,

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show some
documentation, pictures, etc. of all these "burned electrical
connections" from K&T.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously you havent [sic] been around K&T.

Geez Roy - what kind of electrician are you that hasn't been around K&T???

I have "been around K&T". I have run across one bad concealed
connection. I don't remember any "hacked" K&T. Maybe it is a
Pennsylvania thing.

Connections were made in walls, with no access after the plaster walls
went up.

This introduced 2 HAZARDS........

a connection could overheat and being inaccessible it cant be seen or
inspected

the connection may be around something that can burn, like insulation,
wood etc....

K&T was a good system when installed, but its aged now.

Instead of pulling this nonsense out of your ass, show any
documentation, pictures, etc. you can find to back up your statements.

There has to be documentation of all the probably thousands of fires
caused by all haller's bad K&T, but haller has a problem with
documentation.

Like his link to a report from the "Pennsylvania Department of Community
and Economic Development" that says "properly installed and unaltered
K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard", from an agency that does not
"replace K&T at every opportunity", and insulates over K&T. And in
haller's own state.

And his link that said "the wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which
is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly
different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky -
if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you
are going to get a backup at that junction."

haller does, however, have a very active Ouija board from which he gets
a lot of his information. Would a video of the Ouija board in action be
OK Roy?

My personal belief is that Haller lives on a street with dilapidated old
houses where nobody has the funds to upgrade or do proper repairs. In
his narrow view of the world, he sees all houses like those around him.
Despite the fact that you've pointed out to him 9000 times that K&T is
still recognized in the newest NEC,HE CAN'T HEAR YOU.

Yes, as an electrician since 1972, and second generation as well, I've
seen K&T a time or two. What interested me most about the stuff, from
the first time I came across it, was the very fact that it holds up so
much better than many types of wiring that came later. That, and the
fact that it was so labor intensive to install,and really was a work of
art. In today's world with grounded systems and the labor involved , K&T
isn't practical to install, but I've never seen any reason to leave the
few outlets connected to it for a lamp or two, which isn't to say that
new, additional circuits shouldn't be run to facilitate new equipment.
And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

BUD CRACK IS A FREAKING CLOWN & A TROLL.......OR HES GAY AND LOVES
TEASING MEN.
DONT PAY HIM NO MIND, HE JUST CRAVES THE ATTENTIONS ON MEN.
HOW CAN YOU TAKE ANYONE LIKE THAT SERIOUSLY?
DROP IT !
PATECUM
TGITM

On Jul 6, 5:19*am, bob haller wrote:
When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.-

note you said 15 years........ thats a long time..

before all the wild unpredictable weather that wipes out entire
communities and costs insurance megabucks in losses

plus insurance is a competive business. why should homeowners
insurance companies take on higher risk customers? that hurts their
bottom line

K&T homes are functionally obsolete, with just ONE outlet per bedroom,
few outlets overall, requiring lots of extension cords, with a long
lifetime to aquire hacked upgrades, like the photo in this discssion.
K&T doesnt use boxes for connections, thats a real hazard. a buddy of
mine has K&T and has connections fry.

will the posters who claim K&T is fine please post if they still have
it???

every time this topic comes up we have the same discussion

That is because every time someone mentions K&T wiring you go off on a
religious rant and if anyone dares to disagree it gores your sacred ox
and you rant all the more. How about we all chant three times "K&T
wiring is evidence of the devils influence in this world and a brazen
manifestation of evil." Will that satisfy your religious fervor on
this issue.

I will confess here and now that I am one of the devils agents. I
have installed K&T wiring in the last twenty years. The fact that it
was an historic building and that it was installed with money from a
preservation grant will never assuage a true believer but that is OK
with me.
--
Tom Horne

On Jul 7, 2:06*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote:



i didnt post any of those links......

anyone reading this just call and try to get homeowners insurance with
K&T.....call state farm.

..

first of all, there would have to be some compelling reason to call the
highest priced company in the world to begin with. *And IF i did, i'm
sure they would not ask about wiring.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

State Farm Insurance is not the "highest priced company in the
world." They do have the highest rate of payout on premiums. So
maybe that is what you were referring to. That means that they spend
more of each premium dollar to cover the losses of their insureds than
any other company in the nation. State Farm is a Mutual Insurer.
That means that it is operated for the benefit of it's insureds. It
is structured as a mutual benefit association. So unlike a Stock
Insurer they do not have to put the interests of their stock holders
first as is required of Stock Insurers by settled law in the Henry
Ford VS the Dodge Brothers case. My only relationship to State Farm
is that of a satisfied member insured.
--
Tom Horne

On 7/14/2011 10:12 PM, Tom Horne wrote:

State Farm Insurance is not the "highest priced company in the
world." They do have the highest rate of payout on premiums. So
maybe that is what you were referring to. That means that they spend
more of each premium dollar to cover the losses of their insureds than
any other company in the nation. State Farm is a Mutual Insurer.
That means that it is operated for the benefit of it's insureds. It
is structured as a mutual benefit association. So unlike a Stock
Insurer they do not have to put the interests of their stock holders
first as is required of Stock Insurers by settled law in the Henry
Ford VS the Dodge Brothers case. My only relationship to State Farm
is that of a satisfied member insured.
--
Tom Horne

Cool, thanks for the explanation. Do you have K&T wiring?

LMAO!




--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/14/2011 12:38 PM, RBM wrote:

And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

I'm more interested in how old haller is an whether he has watched
Soylent Green.

--
bud--

On Jul 15, 10:40*am, bud-- wrote:
On 7/14/2011 12:38 PM, RBM wrote:



And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

I'm more interested in how old haller is an whether he has watched
Soylent Green.

--
bud--

54 never saw soylent green or at least dont remember it.....

On 7/15/2011 10:40 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/14/2011 12:38 PM, RBM wrote:

And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

I'm more interested in how old haller is an whether he has watched
Soylent Green.

I cracked up when I read that. I saw the movie, in the theater way back
then. If I had to take a wag at Haller's age based on the stuff he
writes, I put him around 80. Of course my 85 year old dad is still
working, repairing commercial electric cooking equipment. Dude is sharp
as a tack, although he can't remember what he had for breakfast. He just
loves what he does, and you can't slow him down.

On 7/15/2011 10:25 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Jul 15, 10:40 am, wrote:
On 7/14/2011 12:38 PM, RBM wrote:



And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

I'm more interested in how old haller is an whether he has watched
Soylent Green.

--
bud--

54 never saw soylent green or at least dont remember it.....

Do you suppose the point has something to do with what Soylent Green is
about?????

On Jul 16, 1:21*am, bud-- wrote:
On 7/15/2011 10:25 AM, bob haller wrote:

On Jul 15, 10:40 am, *wrote:
On 7/14/2011 12:38 PM, RBM wrote:

And by the way Bud, how old is your car???

I'm more interested in how old haller is an whether he has watched
Soylent Green.

--
bud--

54 never saw soylent green or at least dont remember it.....

Do you suppose the point has something to do with what Soylent Green is
about?????

i guess i should rent the movie i have zero idea of what its
about........

On Jul 14, 10:32*pm, Tom Horne wrote:
On Jul 6, 5:19*am, bob haller wrote:





When my daughter wanted to buy a K+T wired house about 15 years ago, I
specifically asked the insurance agent if K+T wiring was a problem.
He said no, there were many more problems with aluminum wiring causing
fires than K+T wiring.-

note you said 15 years........ thats a long time..

before all the wild unpredictable weather that wipes out entire
communities and costs insurance megabucks in losses

plus insurance is a competive business. why should homeowners
insurance companies take on higher risk customers? that hurts their
bottom line

K&T homes are functionally obsolete, with just ONE outlet per bedroom,
few outlets overall, requiring lots of extension cords, with a long
lifetime to aquire hacked upgrades, like the photo in this discssion.
K&T doesnt use boxes for connections, thats a real hazard. a buddy of
mine has K&T and has connections fry.

will the posters who claim K&T is fine please post if they still have
it???

every time this topic comes up we have the same discussion

That is because every time someone mentions K&T wiring you go off on a
religious rant and if anyone dares to disagree it gores your sacred ox
and you rant all the more. *How about we all chant three times "K&T
wiring is evidence of the devils influence in this world and a brazen
manifestation of evil." *Will that satisfy your religious fervor on
this issue.

I will confess here and now that I am one of the devils agents. *I
have installed K&T wiring in the last twenty years. *The fact that it
was an historic building and that it was installed with money from a
preservation grant will never assuage a true believer but that is OK
with me.
--
Tom Horne

WHAT ARE A CLOWN? A RELIGIOUS BIGGOT?
SOUNDS LIKE YOU DONT MIND THE DANGERS OF K & T & UNSAFE WIRING
TECHNIQUES IN THE NEW MILLENIUM, ASS LONG AS YOU ARE INSURED....HIGH
PAYOUT PREMIUMS & JOKES WILL NOT REPLACE LOSS OF LIFE & CERTAIN
PROPERTY ITEMS.
YOU TAKE PRIDE IN BEING AN EVIL FOOL, IT WILL BE A PLEASURE DELIVERING
YOU TO YOUR MASTER, THE DEVIL.
YOU HORNED HEADED TROLL....IN DUE TIME YOU WILL SEE THAT NOT
EVERYTHING IS A JOKE, OR TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
THIS IS NOT BARNUM & BAILEYS OR YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUS!

LISTEN TO ME ! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!
BOOWAHAHAHAHA !
PATECUM
TGITM