On Jul 21, 7:13*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

*"HeyBub" wrote:

Here's what we used to do to people we didn't like:

1. Turn off the lights in their office.
2. Remove the florescent bulbs
3. Drill a 1/16" hole in the end of the tube (have spares - some will
break).
4. With a funnel, dribble 1 tablespoon of gasoline into the tube.
5. Seal the hole with caulk.
6. Replace tube and leave.

Ever seen a volcano erupt downward?

Was this in your official capacity as a LEO?

==
More likely as Chief Execution Officer.
==

Bill Murphy wrote in
:

I have a typical back yard, open mostly to the sun, where I store five
5-gallon jerry jugs of gasoline for my bikes and equipment and
off-road vehicles.

I don't see that it's all that much of a danger, considering we keep
two cars in the garage with twice that much gasoline essentially
inside the house - while this is outside along the fence.

But, my neighbor noticed the four jugs recently and asked about them.
I said I never knew gas to spontaneously explode and he said the sun
could cause it to happen. He also said it's illegal to transport more
than a single five-gallon can in your trunk (is that true?).

Is it all that dangerous to keep 20 gallons of gas in the back yard?
Is it illegal to trasnsport more than 5 gallons (California) in a car?

Do they have vent holes and/or pour spouts? If so, take the spouts out
and loosen take off the vent cap. I had a gas can (1 gallon for the
mower) that I didn't do that when I got gas at the beginning of the
year. Once it warmed up, the vapour pressure forced the gas out the top
even though it was tightly sealed. There was a gasoline smell for two
days and it could easily have lit from open flame. If your neighbour had
smelled that.. Well who wants the fire dept. and city on their tail?

BTW I live in Ontario on the other side of the border. Far farther north than
you, so less heat and different laws. We have red plastic cans here.

--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )

"Ralph Mowery" wrote


While probably not strickly correct, there are high and low explosives.
The high explosives material go off almost all at once such as the C4.
The low explosives burn very fast, such as black powder.

Strictly put, there are a lot of terms regarding "explosions".

You refer to explosive materials, such as C4. Explosives are rated at feet
per second. C4, IIRC is somewhere around 26,400 fps, which means that if
you put 26,400 feet of it out there, it takes one second to go from one end
to the other. It is not sensitive to impact or friction. And technically,
it does not explode, rather detonates is the proper term. Black powder is
much much slower, as we have seen the black powder trail to the dynamite or
keg of powder as in the movies. (Black powder may or may not detonate
dynamite, depending on the stability of the dynamite.) It's just a fast
walking speed. C4 detonates at hypersonic speed, producing a much greater
shock wave than black powder, which essentially burns, but rapidly and
causes pressure within a confined space which usually powers a projectile
out an opening. Black powder can also be used for fracturing rock if it is
packed. Loose black powder will just make a lot of smoke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-4_(explosive)


Then you get into vapor explosions, which are rapid combustion, and not
actually an explosion, as another knowledgeable poster pointed out.

Then there are BLEVE's, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion, which
is called an explosion, but it is just still another rapid combustion, but
these usually occur within vessels that keep the pressure in until something
lets go.

IIRC, there is a speed of burn where it technically becomes an "explosion"
and not a conflagration (uncontrollable burning) or rapid combustion. And
then there's "brisance" which is the rapidity at which it reaches it's
maximum speed or shattering ability, usually measured in feet per second.

It gets real technical. For some good youtube, google Seoul BLEVE. There's
a good one, IIRC, somewhere in Kansas where a rail car is blown a quarter
mile.

In common language, an explosion is anything that goes boom. In technical
talk, there are all sorts of levels of boom.

Conflagration would best describe the sparking off of twenty gallons of gas.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 11:28 am, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:22:16 GMT, notbob wrote:
On 2010-07-21, Steve B wrote:

wrote in message

-1 on that.

In a collision that breaches the fuel tank, the fuel dribbles out on
the ground and nothing happens. The fumes are too concentrated to
ignite, and they quickly dissipate to where there aren't enough fumes
to ignite.

reply: Well, folks, that's it. mkirsch1 has said it, so it must be so.

mdouche1 has his head up his ass!

Gasoline is one of the most explosive flammables around. It will
ignite easily, it will explode violently. Hence, its overwhelming
popularity as the fuel of choice in internal combustion engines.
NOTHING does it better! (well, nitro

1 ounce of gasoline vapor = 1 pound of dynamite- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I sure thats 1 gallon of gasolene vapor not 1 ounce

reply: He's obviously not stating correct information. To say that a car
cannot ignite from the force of a collision is plain ignorant. I saved a
guy's life one time on the freeway. His car stalled, and he was rear-ended
and boom, a fireball. We pulled him out through the driver's window.

I wish he would post the site where the equivalent of gasoline vapor to
dynamite is stated by a professional.

I googled "gasoline vapor equals dynamite" and got this very knowledgeable
answer that explains it all.

http://forums.howwhatwhy.com/showfla...Number=-277570

Too bad the other poster already knows everything, and won't allow any new
information in, or information that is different than what he "thinks" he
knows.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:52:50 -0500, Jim Rusling
wrote:

Roy wrote:

snip
Bull****...the neighbor has legitimate concerns. 20 gallons of
gasoline in jerry cans stored in a trunk of a car is NOT safe. If

Absolutely. AFA the neighbor and I know, these could blow up and send
shrapnel all over his yard. If that's possible, the OP should know it
too, and if it's not, the OP shoould be able to relay this info to the
neighbor. He'd be a fool not to raise the subject.

stored in a locked garden shed isolated from all buildings or fences
it would be much safer but not ideal. Residential areas are not
designed for the storage of volatile liquids especially in the
quantities mentioned. I would not store more than 2 gallons at the
most...this would be adequate for lawnmower and weedeater usage.
People who do what THEY want and disregard OTHERS are just selfish
jerks. I have lived next to these kinds of people in the past and
believe me, it is no picnic.

My gas mowers, edger's, generator, and so on probably hold more than
30 gallons. I normally keep 15 to 25 gallons on hand all the time to
feed all of those small engines. Most of my gas engines have 2 to 5
gallon gas tanks.

But those are are all little, separate tanks, vented gas tanks. If one
goes, it won't take the others with it (except in action movies).

Bill Murphy wrote:
I have a typical back yard, open mostly to the sun, where I store five
5-gallon jerry jugs of gasoline for my bikes and equipment and off-road
vehicles.

I don't see that it's all that much of a danger, considering we keep two
cars in the garage with twice that much gasoline essentially inside the
house - while this is outside along the fence.

But, my neighbor noticed the four jugs recently and asked about them. I
said I never knew gas to spontaneously explode and he said the sun could
cause it to happen. He also said it's illegal to transport more than a
single five-gallon can in your trunk (is that true?).

Is it all that dangerous to keep 20 gallons of gas in the back yard?
Is it illegal to trasnsport more than 5 gallons (California) in a car?

Just how smart is this neighbor? Free gas and you ought to put a case
of beer with it.

"Steve B" wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote


While probably not strickly correct, there are high and low explosives.
The high explosives material go off almost all at once such as the C4.
The low explosives burn very fast, such as black powder.

Strictly put, there are a lot of terms regarding "explosions".

You refer to explosive materials, such as C4. Explosives are rated at feet
per second. C4, IIRC is somewhere around 26,400 fps, which means that if
you put 26,400 feet of it out there, it takes one second to go from one end
to the other. It is not sensitive to impact or friction.

Or flame. We used to use pieces- 1/4 golf ball size?- to heat
C-rations. It has been a *very* long time- but if I remember right
a chunk would burn for 1/2 minute or so and boil a can of beans and
franks. [too hot for the spaghetti & meatballs]

And technically,
it does not explode, rather detonates is the proper term.

I never understood exactly what a detonator did -- but they scared the
crap out of me. C4 was silly putty that burned.

-snip-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-4_(explosive)

I note that the Wiki page says C4 will explode if stomped on while
burning. That was 'common knowledge' in 1969 when I was a foolish
lad of 18. We tried to detonate it by stomping & by throwing large
rocks on it while burning. I never saw anything but a blasting cap
detonate C4.

-snip-

In common language, an explosion is anything that goes boom. In technical
talk, there are all sorts of levels of boom.

Conflagration would best describe the sparking off of twenty gallons of gas.

What would be the term for the 'whoosh' of the vapors that can lift
buildings off their foundations?

Gas is pretty safe-- it's the vapors that kill you.

Jim

On Jul 20, 8:34*pm, Bill Murphy wrote:
I have a typical back yard, open mostly to the sun, where I store five
5-gallon jerry jugs of gasoline for my bikes and equipment and off-road
vehicles.

I don't see that it's all that much of a danger, considering we keep two
cars in the garage with twice that much gasoline essentially inside the
house - while this is outside along the fence.

But, my neighbor noticed the four jugs recently and asked about them. I
said I never knew gas to spontaneously explode and he said the sun could
cause it to happen. He also said it's illegal to transport more than a
single five-gallon can in your trunk (is that true?).

Is it all that dangerous to keep 20 gallons of gas in the back yard?
Is it illegal to trasnsport more than 5 gallons (California) in a car?



Yes it is dangerous to keep that much gasoline stored in your
backyard... Especially in gas cans... You never know what
is going to happen to it, rather than it falling prey to some sort
of spontaneous combustion, it is more likely that it will get
spilled by someone creating a hazardous materials incident,
or that it will be stolen, tampered with by someone adding
something which will hurt your engines to it, or it could be
set on fire as an act of arson/vandalism... You would be
liable for leaving this gasoline out as at "attractive nuisance"
if someone were to spill it or make use of it for arson...

If you want to store and haul more than 20 gallons of fuel at
a time -- here is a question: I assume that you have some
sort of a pick up truck to haul around your bikes and off-road
vehicles... Yes ?

Purchase a "fuel transfer tank" for the bed of your pick-up
truck... Like one of these:

http://www.nextag.com/pickup-bed-fue.../products-html

You will need to obtain a permit for it and have it inspected
periodically to transport that much fuel outside of the
vehicles actual fuel tank...

That is the best way to go... Rather than having a collection
of gasoline containers just hanging around in your yard...

~~ Evan

In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:



I sure thats 1 gallon of gasolene vapor not 1 ounce

reply: He's obviously not stating correct information. To say that a car
cannot ignite from the force of a collision is plain ignorant. I saved a
guy's life one time on the freeway. His car stalled, and he was rear-ended
and boom, a fireball. We pulled him out through the driver's window.

No, to say that a car CAN ignite from the force of a collision is
ignorant. The force of a collision can put a hole in the gas tank and
the force (or more precisely the aftermath while the force of the
collision is dissipated) can cause a spark that ignites the vapors
escaping from said tank. But a car can not ignite merely from the force
of the collision. Otherwise you could BBQ about every day on the
highways of America in multiple places.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:15:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

I'd try to make a shaded location ... to minimize the chances of
lifting the safety relief on a hot day of a full can

These are the new Blitz enviroflow cans. I don't think they have a safety
release.

I guess they must, but they've been tested to not leak one bit subject to
the hottest temperatures possible out in the sun for a year and they didn't
lose an ounce (they measure gas loss by weight, not volume since it expands
so much).

I always fill to the fill line and no more so I think there is no release
(which I know is contrarian thinking) engineered into these cans.

I guess if someone artificially heats them to something over 200 degrees,
they might have a release, but as far as I know, the tests show they hold
their gas (the problem is getting it out, not keeping it in).

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
It's been PROVEN time and again that those "gasoline explosions" you
see in movies are not realistic. They are staged using pyrotechnics.

I'm sure fuel ignites, eventually, but I remember a MythBusters episode
where they just couldn't get gasoline to light from a cigarette (IIRC).

OK. I looked it up. MythBusters Holleywood on Trial #7:
It is possible to ignite a pool of gasoline using only a cigarette.

partly plausible

A cigarette has the potential to light a pool of gasoline but just doesn¢t
have enough sustained heat. Gas ignites between 500 °F and 540 °F, the
cigarette at its hottest was between 450 °F and 500 °F but only when it was
actually being smoked. An ignition is very improbable.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Of course, unless you load up ten 5-gallon jugs with gas and stack
them in the back of the minivan with the kids, in front of a cop,
Unless you ADVERTISE that you're doing something illegal, nobody is
going to know you're doing something illegal...

But how do you get the clandestine 5 five gallon gas cans into the trunk at
the gas station without anyone seeing you?

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 02:43:09 +0000 (UTC), chuckcar wrote:
Is it all that dangerous to keep 20 gallons of gas in the back yard?
Is it illegal to trasnsport more than 5 gallons (California) in a car?

Do they have vent holes and/or pour spouts?

They are certified EPA spillproof leakproof kidproof red plastic gasoline
cans. Gas goes in. Never comes out.

The only opening is the spout. It has special "engineering" to not let the
gas out. Gas only develops about 20psi when heated under the hot sun so
that's not enough to blow up the can (http://www.blitzusa.com/faq.htm).

There was a test of the Blitz cans on the web (gotta dig for it) which
showed absolutely zero weight loss (they measure weight not volume) for a
can out in the sun for a year IIRC. When compared to the "vented" can, the
Blitz won.

Of course, it's a B*TC* to get the gasoline OUT of the can, but that's a
whole nother topic.

In article ,
Orak Listalavostok wrote:



A cigarette has the potential to light a pool of gasoline but just doesn¢t
have enough sustained heat. Gas ignites between 500 °F and 540 °F, the
cigarette at its hottest was between 450 °F and 500 °F but only when it was
actually being smoked. An ignition is very improbable.

The pool is the other part. It isn't so much the heat. When the
cig is in the pool, the vapor concentration at the ember is most likely
not right to light off. There is really not all that large of a range
when vapor isn't too rich or too lean.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:



I sure thats 1 gallon of gasolene vapor not 1 ounce

reply: He's obviously not stating correct information. To say that a
car
cannot ignite from the force of a collision is plain ignorant. I saved a
guy's life one time on the freeway. His car stalled, and he was
rear-ended
and boom, a fireball. We pulled him out through the driver's window.

No, to say that a car CAN ignite from the force of a collision is
ignorant. The force of a collision can put a hole in the gas tank and
the force (or more precisely the aftermath while the force of the
collision is dissipated) can cause a spark that ignites the vapors
escaping from said tank. But a car can not ignite merely from the force
of the collision. Otherwise you could BBQ about every day on the
highways of America in multiple places.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

Yes, you are correct. But the poster seemed to say that gasoline does not
ignite during a crash for any reason.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:38:54 -0500, wrote:
Since this is California, the state which has more laws than the whole
rest of the country combined, it might be illegal to haul more than
one 5 gal. can in your trunk.

EPA web site says nothing about any specific volume for long term gasoline
storage.
http://www.epa.gov/epahome/hi-summer.htm

Using and Storing Gasoline In the summer, lots of portable containers are
used to store and transport fuels for lawnmowers, chainsaws and
recreational vehicles. These portable containers can emit hydrocarbons; in
addition, spills can leak into ground water. Here are some tips to follow
to reduce these concerns:

Use Proper Containers Use only containers approved by a nationally
recognized testing lab, such as Underwriters Laboratories (UL). Containers
should be fitted with a spout to allow pouring without spilling and to
minimize the generation of vapors. Always open and use gasoline containers
in a well-ventilated area away from children and animals.

Fill Cautiously Fuel equipment on a hard surface such as concrete or
asphalt and use a funnel and/or spout to prevent spilling or splashing when
fueling lawn and recreational equipment and always fuel outside where there
is adequate ventilation to disperse the vapors

Store Carefully Store as little gasoline as possible and be certain
to keep your gasoline container properly sealed. Store the gasoline in a
cool, dry place and never in direct sunlight. Store at ground level to
minimize the danger of falling and spilling. Do not store gasoline in a car
trunk. There is a threat of explosion from heat and impact. Do not store
gasoline in your basement.

Avoid Spills Avoid spilling gasoline on the ground, especially near
wells. If a small spill occurs use kitty litter, saw dust or an absorbent
towel to soak up the spill, then dispose of it properly

Dispose Properly Do not dispose of gasoline down the drain, into
surface water, onto the ground, or in the trash. You should check with your
town concerning using your local household hazardous waste collection for
safe disposal of excess or old gasoline.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:38:54 -0500, wrote:
Is it illegal to trasnsport more than 5 gallons (California) in a car?

OSHA says the cans need to be 5 gallons or less in order to transport.

http://simplifiedsafety.com/blog/doe..._requirements/

But they say nothing about how many you can transport at the same time or
where you have to put the cans.

Here's what it says.

OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1926.152(a)(1) states "Only approved containers
and portable tanks shall be used for storage and handling of flammable and
combustible liquids. Approved safety cans or Department of Transportation
approved containers shall be used for the handling and use of flammable
liquids in quantities of 5 gallons or less.

Anytime the word "shall" is used in a regulation, it means that this
rule is mandatory and must be followed.

What is an approved safety can or DOT gas can?

A safety can is (29CFR1926.155(1) an approved, closed container, of not
more than 5 gallons capacity, having a flash arresting screen, spring
closing lid and spout cover and so designed that it will safely relieve
internal pressure when subjected to fire exposure.

Approval is given by a nationally recognized testing laboratory, for
example, Underwriters' Laboratory, Inc.

Gas cans can only display DOT approval markings when they meet
stringent Department of Transportation requirements. Here is where it gets
confusing, inexpensive plastic gas cans may meet EPA (Environmental
Protection Agency) requirements, but they do NOT meet DOT rules. Some gas
cans may say they meet CARB spill-proof regulations in certain states or
AQMD (Air Quality Management
District) rules. Again, this doesn't help when trying to comply with
OSHA. None of these other regulatory agencies are the same as DOT. They
are not interchangeable.

If your head isn't already spinning, one last point. If you are
looking for a UL "approval", you will see the following words on the
product, UL Listed. If your can has a UL Classified marking, this is not
the same as UL Listed (approved). If you want more information about UL
markings, go to http://tinyurl.com/pxb9dt

On Jul 22, 1:07*am, "Steve B" wrote:
Then there are BLEVE's, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion, which
is called an explosion, but it is just still another rapid combustion, but
these usually occur within vessels that keep the pressure in until something
lets go.


Steve

If you're going to get nitpicky, I will too. A BLEVE is a mechanical
explosion; it does not require combustion at all. Water can BLEVE in
the right container, as the Mythbusters have proven.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:30:14 -0700, Steve B wrote:

I also personally wouldn't carry that much gas in the trunk.

OSHA regulations exerpts from
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...able=STANDARDS

1926.152(a)(1): Approved safety cans or Department of Transportation
approved containers shall be used for the handling and use of flammable
liquids in quantities of 5 gallons or less ...

1926.152(b)(1): No more than 25 gallons of flammable or combustible liquids
shall be stored in a room outside of an approved storage cabinet ...

1926.152(b)(2): Quantities of flammable and combustible liquid in excess of
25 gallons shall be stored in an acceptable or approved cabinet meeting the
following requirements ...

1926.152(b)(3): Not more than 60 gallons of flammable or 120 gallons of
combustible liquids shall be stored in any one storage cabinet. Not more
than three such cabinets may be located in a single storage area.
Quantities in excess of this shall be stored in an inside storage room.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:06:10 -0400, Frank wrote:
It's a local thing:

CARB (California Air Resource Board) states
http://www.pfcma.com/States_Compliance.htm

CARB/OTC Portable Fuel Container & Spout Regulation
Updated Apr 2008

State: Transition Date: Full Compliance Date
California Jan-01-00 Jan-01-01 Phase II regulation: Jul-01-07
Delaware Jan-01-02 Jan-01-03
Maryland Jan-01-02 Jan-01-03
New York Jan-01-02 Jan-01-03
Pennsylvania Jan-01-02 Jan-01-03
Maine Jan-01-03 Jan-01-04
Virginia Jan-01-05 (specific counties only)
Connecticut May-01-04 May-01-05
Washington DC Jan-01-05 Jan-01-06
New Jersey Jan-01-05 Jan-01-06
Texas Jan-01-06
New Hampshire Mar-01-06 Mar-01-07
Ohio Jul-01-07
Massachusetts Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection is
awaiting implementation of the U.S. EPA nation-wide Portable Fuel Container
Rules scheduled for January 2009.
Rhode Island Rhode Island Department of Environmental Management is
awaiting implementation of the U.S. EPA nation-wide Portable Fuel Container
Rules scheduled for January 2009.
Vermont The VT DEC (Dept of Environmental Conservation) is awaiting
implementation of the U.S. EPA nation-wide Portable Fuel Container Rules
scheduled for January 2009.
Illinois The IEPA is currently awaiting implementation of the U.S. EPA
nation-wide Portable Fuel Container Rules scheduled for January 2009.
National EPA Administrator signed proposed rule similar to CARB's revised
rules. Implementation date is January 2009

Actually, the possibility of a leak might be a bigger risk than any
fire hazard.

Your neighbor doesn't know how leak proof your containers are. You
might be able to prove it to him.

But think about it. If he has a well, and you drip a little gasoline
into the groundwater, he just lost his water supply.

Even if no well, if you contaminate the groundwater under his
property, he can no longer sell his house. You're probably liable for
his property loss as well as an environmental cleanup.

And if you're storing your gasoline perfectly, but the guy before you
dripped gasoline into the groundwater, you may have trouble proving it
wasn't you.

Of course that's true if you keep your gas cans in the shed too. But
your neighbor won't know.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:05:19 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote:
You will need to obtain a permit for it and have it inspected
periodically to transport that much fuel outside of the
vehicles actual fuel tank...

EPA Final Order

Control of Hazardous Air Pollutants From Mobile Sources; Final Rule

Federal Register / Vol. 72, No. 37 / Monday, February 26, 2007 / Rules and
Regulations

http://www.blitzusa.com/rcenter/EPA%20Final%20Order.pdf

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:04:30 -0700, Steve B wrote:

But the poster seemed to say that gasoline does not
ignite during a crash for any reason.

Autoignition Temperatu 833 degrees F / 444 degrees C

Gulf unleaded gasoline material data sheet (MDS)
http://www.gulfoil.com/files/downloa...edgasoline.PDF

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:47:29 -0700 (PDT), Roy wrote:
An acreage or small farm will naturally require more maintenance and
of course more gasoline or diesel. I have a 300 gallon gas tank

Transportation of Hazardous Materials - Recent Laws & Regulations

HM-200; TITLE:"Hazardous Materials in Intrastate Commerce; Technical
Amendments"; Final Rule; Effective Date 02/18/98; Published 02/18/98; 63 FR
8140.

SUMMARY: On January 8, 1997, RSPA published a final rule which amended the
Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to expand the scope of the
regulations to all intrastate transportation of hazardous materials. ... In
this final rule, RSPA is: Correcting a date for States to develop
legislation authorizing certain exceptions recognized in the HMR;
clarifying packaging requirements for hazardous materials transported for
agricultural operations; correcting size requirements for identification
number markings; and clarifying that the provisions for use of
non-specification cargo tanks apply to transportation of gasoline.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:48:01 +0000 (UTC), Judy Zappacosta
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Of course, unless you load up ten 5-gallon jugs with gas and stack
them in the back of the minivan with the kids, in front of a cop,
Unless you ADVERTISE that you're doing something illegal, nobody is
going to know you're doing something illegal...

But how do you get the clandestine 5 five gallon gas cans into the trunk at
the gas station without anyone seeing you?

Don't know about storage. Others are citing rules.
I keep plastic 5 gallon, 2 gallon and 1 gallon containers in my
garage, tucked away under the workbench. One of each.
The 2 gallon is for filling the lawn mower.
Easy to handle and not spill gas.
The 1 gallon has the 2-cycle mix for the weed whacker.
The 5 gallon only comes out to replenish the others.
As to your question, the simple answer is one at a time.
No reason you have to transport all the gas at once.
Though I don't see moving 4 5-gallons jugs in the trunk as an issue if
they are reasonably secured and you don't travel far.
But I'm less than half a mile from a gas station.
If I had to travel more than a couple miles I'd probably carry one at
a time.
When I do the yearly half-mile trip with my 3 jugs it's a dedicated
trip and I'm aware of what's in the trunk the entire time.

--Vic

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:04:40 -0700, Bill Murphy wrote:
Any ideas what the laws are on transport?

I looked on the California DOT site and searched for hours.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/

Even a genius couldn't find what you're looking for on the California DOT
web site.

Vic Smith wrote:
-snip-

Don't know about storage. Others are citing rules.
I keep plastic 5 gallon, 2 gallon and 1 gallon containers in my
garage, tucked away under the workbench.

Just curious-- Do you ever weld, solder, grind, hammer metallic
things, or use power tools at that workbench?

I keep a 10-20 gallons gas in my garage, too-- but it is in a no-work
zone between two garage doors. Even at that I think I would be smart
to move it to its own little shed.

Jim

wrote:

it did not explode. Not with just gasoline. You may have witnessed
a rapid burning, but not an explosion.

Then why did the two people onboard land 30 feet away in the water
with broken bones?

(they survived)

You'd be surprised how far you can jump when the boat's on fire.

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Steve B" wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote


While probably not strickly correct, there are high and low
explosives. The high explosives material go off almost all at once
such as the C4. The low explosives burn very fast, such as black
powder.

Strictly put, there are a lot of terms regarding "explosions".

You refer to explosive materials, such as C4. Explosives are rated
at feet per second. C4, IIRC is somewhere around 26,400 fps, which
means that if you put 26,400 feet of it out there, it takes one
second to go from one end to the other. It is not sensitive to
impact or friction.

Or flame. We used to use pieces- 1/4 golf ball size?- to heat
C-rations. It has been a *very* long time- but if I remember right
a chunk would burn for 1/2 minute or so and boil a can of beans and
franks. [too hot for the spaghetti & meatballs]

And technically,
it does not explode, rather detonates is the proper term.

I never understood exactly what a detonator did -- but they scared the
crap out of me. C4 was silly putty that burned.


Yep, doodlebuggers (oil exploration crew members) often rammed a stick of
dynamite in the ground, lit the end, and made coffee. The stuff burns like a
railroad flare, though not as violently (or smelly).

Orak Listalavostok wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
It's been PROVEN time and again that those "gasoline explosions" you
see in movies are not realistic. They are staged using pyrotechnics.

I'm sure fuel ignites, eventually, but I remember a MythBusters
episode where they just couldn't get gasoline to light from a
cigarette (IIRC).

OK. I looked it up. MythBusters Holleywood on Trial #7:
It is possible to ignite a pool of gasoline using only a cigarette.

partly plausible

A cigarette has the potential to light a pool of gasoline but just
doesn¢t have enough sustained heat. Gas ignites between 500 °F and
540 °F, the cigarette at its hottest was between 450 °F and 500 °F
but only when it was actually being smoked. An ignition is very
improbable.

Right. The reason for "No Smoking" signs around gasoline is not so much that
the cigarette will ignite the fumes as it is the CIGARETTE LIGHTER will
ignite the fumes.

To be fair, what the signs SHOULD say is: "No lighting of cigarettes around
here"

Vic Smith wrote:

Don't know about storage. Others are citing rules.
I keep plastic 5 gallon, 2 gallon and 1 gallon containers in my
garage, tucked away under the workbench. One of each.
The 2 gallon is for filling the lawn mower.
Easy to handle and not spill gas.
The 1 gallon has the 2-cycle mix for the weed whacker.
The 5 gallon only comes out to replenish the others.
As to your question, the simple answer is one at a time.
No reason you have to transport all the gas at once.
Though I don't see moving 4 5-gallons jugs in the trunk as an issue if
they are reasonably secured and you don't travel far.
But I'm less than half a mile from a gas station.
If I had to travel more than a couple miles I'd probably carry one at
a time.
When I do the yearly half-mile trip with my 3 jugs it's a dedicated
trip and I'm aware of what's in the trunk the entire time.


We kept 5 gallons of gas on hand to replenish the 6-gallon tank on the
generator. Seemed sufficient.

Then Hurricane Yikes came along and knocked 4 million people in our city
into the no-power zone, including every gas station for fifty miles! For TEN
FREAKIN' DAYS!

I now have a LOT of six-gallon gas cans.

The next time a hurricane heads this way, I'm gonna fill every blessed one
of them! I'll stack 'em in the garage along with lawn chairs, pot plants,
garbage cans, the dog, and anything else that might blow away in 80 mph
winds. If the door-to-door gas-can inspector comes by, I'll lie or plead
exigent circumstances.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:50:22 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
-snip-

Don't know about storage. Others are citing rules.
I keep plastic 5 gallon, 2 gallon and 1 gallon containers in my
garage, tucked away under the workbench.

Just curious-- Do you ever weld, solder, grind, hammer metallic
things, or use power tools at that workbench?

Good point. Only thing you mentioned is I do have my bench grinder at
the end of that bench.
That bench is really 8' x 1 "x 6" boards I tied into the studs with 3
1" x 4" supports cut with 45 degree miters from the studs to the outer
edges providing support. Extra lumber I had around.
Real strong and open underneath except for the 3 angled supports.
Good place to roll my floor jack out of the way, store jack stands and
those jugs.
Sparks shouldn't get near the gas jugs, but now that you've mentioned
it, I could get them away from there, and will.
Thanks.
But I'm not moving my kerosene jugs!

I keep a 10-20 gallons gas in my garage, too-- but it is in a no-work
zone between two garage doors. Even at that I think I would be smart
to move it to its own little shed.


I feel pretty much the same, but never smelled fumes, and the jugs
have never popped a vent open.
Now you've got me thinking that getting a little shed would be a good
idea.

--Vic

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:24:48 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:

Don't know about storage. Others are citing rules.
I keep plastic 5 gallon, 2 gallon and 1 gallon containers in my
garage, tucked away under the workbench. One of each.
The 2 gallon is for filling the lawn mower.
Easy to handle and not spill gas.
The 1 gallon has the 2-cycle mix for the weed whacker.
The 5 gallon only comes out to replenish the others.
As to your question, the simple answer is one at a time.
No reason you have to transport all the gas at once.
Though I don't see moving 4 5-gallons jugs in the trunk as an issue if
they are reasonably secured and you don't travel far.
But I'm less than half a mile from a gas station.
If I had to travel more than a couple miles I'd probably carry one at
a time.
When I do the yearly half-mile trip with my 3 jugs it's a dedicated
trip and I'm aware of what's in the trunk the entire time.


We kept 5 gallons of gas on hand to replenish the 6-gallon tank on the
generator. Seemed sufficient.

Then Hurricane Yikes came along and knocked 4 million people in our city
into the no-power zone, including every gas station for fifty miles! For TEN
FREAKIN' DAYS!

I now have a LOT of six-gallon gas cans.

The next time a hurricane heads this way, I'm gonna fill every blessed one
of them! I'll stack 'em in the garage along with lawn chairs, pot plants,
garbage cans, the dog, and anything else that might blow away in 80 mph
winds. If the door-to-door gas-can inspector comes by, I'll lie or plead
exigent circumstances.


Hehe. Those with generators and hurricanes have to look at it
differently.
Once electricity goes out widespread, everything is shot to hell.
Had a 2 day outage here once.
Seemed like the end of the world.
Personally, I'd probably prefer just getting out of town to someplace
civilized when such an outage happened, but you do what you gotta do.

--Vic

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Steve B" wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote


While probably not strickly correct, there are high and low
explosives. The high explosives material go off almost all at once
such as the C4. The low explosives burn very fast, such as black
powder.

Strictly put, there are a lot of terms regarding "explosions".

You refer to explosive materials, such as C4. Explosives are rated
at feet per second. C4, IIRC is somewhere around 26,400 fps, which
means that if you put 26,400 feet of it out there, it takes one
second to go from one end to the other. It is not sensitive to
impact or friction.

Or flame. We used to use pieces- 1/4 golf ball size?- to heat
C-rations. It has been a *very* long time- but if I remember right
a chunk would burn for 1/2 minute or so and boil a can of beans and
franks. [too hot for the spaghetti & meatballs]

And technically,
it does not explode, rather detonates is the proper term.

I never understood exactly what a detonator did -- but they scared the
crap out of me. C4 was silly putty that burned.


Yep, doodlebuggers (oil exploration crew members) often rammed a stick of
dynamite in the ground, lit the end, and made coffee. The stuff burns like
a railroad flare, though not as violently (or smelly).

C4 does emit a poisonous gas when burned, but hey, you're in country, and
there's VC within smelling distance, what's a little poisonous gas? Might
even get an early discharge. From the Army, that is.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"LM" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:04:30 -0700, Steve B wrote:

But the poster seemed to say that gasoline does not
ignite during a crash for any reason.

Autoignition Temperatu 833 degrees F / 444 degrees C

Gulf unleaded gasoline material data sheet (MDS)
http://www.gulfoil.com/files/downloa...edgasoline.PDF

And your point is? That there is no ignition source during a vehicle crash?

What is the temperature from a spark from a electrical wire, a bursting tail
light, or steel dragging on the pavement? Is it over 833? I would think it
is less, but still, a very effective ignition source. Electrical fires
after collisions are common, even if they are not the spectacular variety.
There's lots of hot melting wires and sparks.

No?

"LM" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:30:14 -0700, Steve B wrote:

I also personally wouldn't carry that much gas in the trunk.

OSHA regulations exerpts from
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...able=STANDARDS

1926.152(a)(1): Approved safety cans or Department of Transportation
approved containers shall be used for the handling and use of flammable
liquids in quantities of 5 gallons or less ...

1926.152(b)(1): No more than 25 gallons of flammable or combustible
liquids
shall be stored in a room outside of an approved storage cabinet ...

1926.152(b)(2): Quantities of flammable and combustible liquid in excess
of
25 gallons shall be stored in an acceptable or approved cabinet meeting
the
following requirements ...

1926.152(b)(3): Not more than 60 gallons of flammable or 120 gallons of
combustible liquids shall be stored in any one storage cabinet. Not more
than three such cabinets may be located in a single storage area.
Quantities in excess of this shall be stored in an inside storage room.

I was an associate safety professional. Yes, you may cite OSHA all day
long.

But you said containers of less than five gallons storage. What about
transport? You say nothing about that.

Point is, 5 gallons, 25 gallons 60 gallons (see above), any regular guy
who's been around the block a couple of times knows you can get in one hell
of a mess with a cup of gasoline or less. I knew two guys who had their
faces altered for life with less than a cup of gas.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"Vic Smith" wrote

Sparks shouldn't get near the gas jugs, but now that you've mentioned
it, I could get them away from there, and will.
Thanks.

I hate two words. Should and probably.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Jul 22, 1:07 am, "Steve B" wrote:
Then there are BLEVE's, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion, which
is called an explosion, but it is just still another rapid combustion, but
these usually occur within vessels that keep the pressure in until
something
lets go.


Steve

If you're going to get nitpicky, I will too. A BLEVE is a mechanical
explosion; it does not require combustion at all. Water can BLEVE in
the right container, as the Mythbusters have proven.

reply: I'm sorry, but you were the one picking nits and not being very
specific about it, either.

I'm sorry if I confused you with specific terms.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"Steve B" wrote

1926.152(a)(1): Approved safety cans or Department of Transportation
approved containers shall be used for the handling and use of flammable
liquids in quantities of 5 gallons or less ...



But you said containers of less than five gallons storage. What about
transport? You say nothing about that.

NO, sorry. You cited about 5 gallon containers for handling. Nothing
stated there about storage.

Steve

On 7/21/2010 8:15 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2010-07-22, Steve wrote:

It is, however, a rapid burning action.

Aren't all explosions?

nb

no, there's actually a difference.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email