Neon John wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

Where would the electricity go?

It didn't "go" anywhere. The higher bill is probably a combination of actually using
a little more electricity and "catching up" from the co-op's reading estimation.

Few rural co-ops read every meter every month. Many only read every 3 months or so.
....

Don't know about "few", maybe still "some". Out here it is manually
read by a paid part-time person (virtually always a member
"moonlighting"). We had to ditch the mail-in cards when the numbers of
installed meters at locations where there was no sentient discernible
sentient lifeform that could actually perform the task became too
great...

Eventually will probably go to the self-reading, but that's still in the
future...

--

rOn Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days.

Facts:
Elec clothes dryer.

After looking at this thread and then re-reading your initial post, this caught my
eye. Presumably your dirty clothes backed up during the outage. How many loads of
wash did you do when the power was restored?

If your dryer is typical it draws about 7kW. That means that it would use 7kWh for
every hour of operation. Assume a load takes an hour. Mine does.

You had power for (31-6.5) = 24.5 days. If your usage was average then you used
653/31 = 21.06kWh/day. For the month that would be 24.5*21.06 = 516kWh. The
difference from your average would be 653-516 = 136.9kWh.

136.9/7kWh per load ~= 20. So if you did 20 extra loads of clothes after the power
came back on, just the dryer usage (ignoring all other additional loads such as
whatever the washing machine and well pump used to support the extra clothes washing)
would account for the difference.

Since you and your neighbors were in similar situations, it wouldn't be unusual for
them to have done extra laundry too.

You probably also had dirty dishes piling up (additional well pump and maybe electric
dishwasher usage) and probably didn't vacuum during the outage. I bet that if you
sit down and carefully recount your activities after the power came on, you could
account for most, if not all the apparent discrepancy.

I'm still betting on an estimation catch-up reading but even if they really don't
estimate, it's not very hard to account for the difference with just a few lifestyle
assumptions and undoubtedly the extra degree-days involved. After all, you DID have
s storm severe enough to cause an extended power outage.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Why the US is losing its competitivve edge:"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."-James Niccol

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:28:41 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:

In Neon John writes:
[ snip ]

This does not work for 240 volt branches, of course.
You'd need a 240 volt KAW [kill-a-watt meter] OR
better, the clamp-on wattmeter.

Is such a beast ( a 240 V KAW) available yet? I've
been eagerly waiting for one of them or a competitor....

I've seen 'em on European web sites but I don't know if they'd work on 60hz or not. I
generally just use my clamp-on wattmeter for 240 volt applications.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!

franz fripplfrappl wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:


xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653
kwh with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would
not have been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we
had NO electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31
days. I was expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was
dismayed when it was actually higher. So far this month of January, we
are using at the about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December,
the only odd thing is that we had NO power of nearly a week in December.
I've spoken with a few neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think
of it' their bill went up or didn't go down as much as they would have
expected for a 20-25% time of no usage. I ask the REC and they said we
'just used more'. They also tried to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not
buying it. They claim they didn't estimate the bill and when I received
the bill I immediately checked and the meter reading seemed in line with
normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which can be affected by rate
changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights . We
relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. For the entire
billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual that would
increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra Xmas
lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace. Gas
water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody
running an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it
quit turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet.
With all house breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a
-Watt and have begun looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing
yet, although the KAW is fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA





Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. Instead
they take an average. Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?

Also check that there were the same number of days in the billing cycle.

And consider the fact that furnace fans can be a big user of power
(during the period when the power WAS on).

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:59:56 -0500, Neon John wrote:

rOn Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days.

Facts:
Elec clothes dryer.

After looking at this thread and then re-reading your initial post, this caught my
eye. Presumably your dirty clothes backed up during the outage. How many loads of
wash did you do when the power was restored?


That shouldn't change the amount of total clothes washed in December.
Clothes pilling up at my house would actually make the electric bill
less. That shirt wasn't as dirty as I thought it was.

ransley wrote:
snip

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground. When you are done
you will know what everything uses in power and standby and know what
to change. Dec is maybe the darkest month so you of course use more
electricty to light you home turning lights on earlier and off later.
Your boiler or furnace runs more consuming more electricity. Try CFLs
and unlugging things not used, most everything takes standby power
and wastes electricity not even being used, even you garage door can
be put on a switch. I found my sprinkler system timer was costing me
1$ a month over the winter being left plugged in. 680 kwh is alot, im
down to 200-275 or so

amps can be deceptive due to power factor

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Neon John wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:39:45 -0600, Steve IA wrote:



Talked to a couple more neighbors and their December bill was also
higher than expected. I will verify with the REC that these readings
were not estimated. The clerk who I spoke to may not know the whole
story.
Thanks


Most likely. I KNOW that my co-op's receptionist and general purpose customer
answer-girl tells customers that they don't estimate. I KNOW equally well (because
I'm friends with the meter department supervisor) that they do.

One other thing that you might want to do is find out the number of degree-days for
that month and the previous month(s). Absent any major change in configuration (new
major appliance, for example), electricity usage for a given customer tracks
remarkably well with degree-days. This holds even for houses where the primary heat
source isn't electricity. Not sure why but that is what the statistics show.

If the degree-days are much lower for the month in question then you can be pretty

I think you mean higher rather than lower. Degree days are measured as
delta from a base temperature.

sure that you used more energy.

I'm still betting on estimated readings and the one in question being a "catch up".

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Steve,

I guess I'm not following your calculations. I will give you actuals and
maybe I can see where you're coming from
Dec 07 - 682 kwh on a 31 day billing cycle = 22 kwh/day

No, the billing cycle may have been 31 days but I thought you said you
had a power outage for 6 days. that means that you used 682/25 days=27.3
kwh/day. But if you used 22 kwh/day ( I don't follow this) then your use
seems to be quite normal for this time of year
Previous 6 years Dec: assuming 31 day billing cycle for all
02- 611 =19.7kwh/day
03- 702 =22.6
04 -663 =21.4
05 -676 =21.8
06 -581 =18.7
07 -682 =22

I'm not sure why you are using the numbers for Dec 07 in computing your
average since you believe these numbers are wrong. Excluding the 07 figures
I get an average or 647 kwh for December.
Where I live the actual billing cycle can fluctuate by a day or two, so
I'm uncertain if it is reasonable to average these numbers together and I
would not calculate the kwh/day without knowing how many days there are in
the billing cycle
27.3 kwh/day is probably a new high for you but it does not seem to be a
huge increase. Could be a lot of Christmas lights, a few visitors, really
cold weather, et c.

Dave M.

Terry wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:59:56 -0500, Neon John wrote:


rOn Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:


xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days.

Facts:
Elec clothes dryer.

After looking at this thread and then re-reading your initial post, this caught my
eye. Presumably your dirty clothes backed up during the outage. How many loads of
wash did you do when the power was restored?



That shouldn't change the amount of total clothes washed in December.

But if you were calculating your average daily use based on only those
days with power, it could skew that figure.

Clothes pilling up at my house would actually make the electric bill
less. That shirt wasn't as dirty as I thought it was.





--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT said (on or about) 01/19/2008 19:40:
Neon John wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:39:45 -0600, Steve IA wrote:



Talked to a couple more neighbors and their December bill was also
higher than expected. I will verify with the REC that these readings
were not estimated. The clerk who I spoke to may not know the whole
story.
Thanks


Most likely. I KNOW that my co-op's receptionist and general purpose
customer
answer-girl tells customers that they don't estimate. I KNOW equally
well (because
I'm friends with the meter department supervisor) that they do.

One other thing that you might want to do is find out the number of
degree-days for
that month and the previous month(s). Absent any major change in
configuration (new
major appliance, for example), electricity usage for a given customer
tracks
remarkably well with degree-days. This holds even for houses where
the primary heat
source isn't electricity. Not sure why but that is what the
statistics show.

If the degree-days are much lower for the month in question then you
can be pretty

I think you mean higher rather than lower. Degree days are measured as
delta from a base temperature.


You mean Heating Degree Days -- Cooling Degree Days are calculated in
the reverse. Of course if Steve is cooling things in Iowa during
December and January then there really is a warming problem. Of
course all the hot-air from the political types in Nov-Dec could have
created a need for cooling. But I digress....

sure that you used more energy.

I'm still betting on estimated readings and the one in question being
a "catch up".

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.





--
The present tax structure is a disgrace to this country;
it's just a welfare program for the rich.

WOW! that's freaky. Our REC charges .13 and that's a rip around here. The
Kansas city power and light is only about 9.5 or 10 and when we moved on the
the REC, i thought i was gonna die. thanks for the explaination.

s


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...


It is called "Time of Day Service" from Jersey Central Power and Light.
They have a special meter for this. I actually have four electric power
rates thoughout the year. There is a night and day rate for the winter
months and a night and day rate for the summer months. The daytime summer
rate is the highest at about .22 per KWH. The cheapest rate for winter
nights is around .13 per KWH. Weekends are the same as nights.

Don't even get me started on my phone bill. lol



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
I don't know about where you live,
but my electric rate is higher during the week days and during daylight
hours than at night. Maybe you were home more during peak periods.

David L. Martel wrote:
Steve,

I guess I'm not following your calculations. I will give you actuals and
maybe I can see where you're coming from
Dec 07 - 682 kwh on a 31 day billing cycle = 22 kwh/day

No, the billing cycle may have been 31 days but I thought you said you
had a power outage for 6 days. that means that you used 682/25 days=27.3
kwh/day. But if you used 22 kwh/day ( I don't follow this) then your use
seems to be quite normal for this time of year

If we had used for 31 days instead of 25 it would have been 22 kwh/day.
right.
I agree that the real average for dec 07 is 27.3 kwh/day which is way
more than we've ever used before for no apparent reason.


I'm not sure why you are using the numbers for Dec 07 in computing your
average since you believe these numbers are wrong.
The numbers are what the meter reader says (or guessed) I have not other
numbers and January usage is in line with the end of december reading.

Excluding the 07 figures
I get an average or 647 kwh for December.
Where I live the actual billing cycle can fluctuate by a day or two, so
I'm uncertain if it is reasonable to average these numbers together and I
would not calculate the kwh/day without knowing how many days there are in
the billing cycle
27.3 kwh/day is probably a new high for you but it does not seem to be a
huge increase. Could be a lot of Christmas lights, a few visitors, really
cold weather, et c.

Dave M.


Read the other responses again. No lights. no entertaining, no extra
dirty clothes. I may be thick as a brick on this, but it doesn't add up.
Thanks
\
Steve

CJT wrote:


And consider the fact that furnace fans can be a big user of power
(during the period when the power WAS on).


1/3 hp (246 watts) furnace fan which only runs briefly due to the wood
burner supplying most of our heat.

thanks for the input

Steve

Terry wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:59:56 -0500, Neon John wrote:

Elec clothes dryer.
After looking at this thread and then re-reading your initial post, this caught my
eye. Presumably your dirty clothes backed up during the outage. How many loads of
wash did you do when the power was restored?


That shouldn't change the amount of total clothes washed in December.
Clothes pilling up at my house would actually make the electric bill
less. That shirt wasn't as dirty as I thought it was.


Pretty much how it works.

Steve

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
WOW! that's freaky. Our REC charges .13 and that's a rip around here.
The Kansas city power and light is only about 9.5 or 10 and when we moved
on the the REC, i thought i was gonna die. thanks for the explaination.

I'm paying .18 and a new increase is coming.

Facts:
Elec clothes dryer.

Check that dryer to be sure the vent is not clogging and clothes are taking
longer to dry.

Steve IA wrote:
ransley wrote:
...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve


A direct short is what we electricians call a bolted fault. If a
complete short were to exist the breaker should open. What brand of
breaker are we talking about?

An extension cord connection exposed to wetting can use a lot of
electricity without tripping the circuit breaker. Anything less then
ten percent over current can continue for a very long time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Every electric bill I have ever gotten clearly states if it's an
estimate or actual reading. My company places a code in front of the
amount. I think mine uses EST as estimate and ACT as actual.

By chance, when the main wires fell, I assume you were still connected
to the transformer (in other words the primary wires fell). Could
someone have connected a generator to one of the houses connected to
the transformer, which backfed to other houses?



On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:10:03 -0600, "S. Barker"
wrote:

HE SAID he talked to the company and HE SAID it wasn't an estimate.


s


"franz fripplfrappl" wrote in message
et...




Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. Instead
they take an average. Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?

wrote:
Every electric bill I have ever gotten clearly states if it's an
estimate or actual reading. My company places a code in front of the
amount. I think mine uses EST as estimate and ACT as actual.

By chance, when the main wires fell, I assume you were still connected
to the transformer (in other words the primary wires fell). Could
someone have connected a generator to one of the houses connected to
the transformer, which backfed to other houses?


We happen to be on a forked dead end of the power line. The wires broke
with 4 houses connected to each other via the lines, but not to outside
power. Our transformer is on the pole behind the house and lines are on
the pole and underground from the xformer to the house.
AFAIK all 4 houses had generators, but I don't know how the other 3 were
hooked up. Ours didn't go near the circuit box or meter.
If someone did connect to the lines which energized to backfeed to our
house wouldn't our house power have been restored by their generator? I
don't understand how a backfeed could affect our meter without providing
power.
Thanks for you thoughts.

Steve
southiowa

Neon John wrote:
..

The Kill-A-Watt is probably the least expensive tool with adequate accuracy there is
for measuring actual consumption. It can be used to measure branch circuits and is
what I used before I bought my clamp-on wattmeter.

The procedure involves a Jesus cord (male convenience plug on one end of the cord and
alligator clips on the other.

Plug the KAW into an outlet or extension cord. Remove the breaker panel cover. Flip
the breaker of the branch of interest off. Connect the black alligator clip of the
Jesus cord to the breaker output screw. (optional) clip the white alligator clip to
the neutral bus. Plug the Jesus cord into the KAW. The branch is now powered
through the KAW and the KAW displays the vital info.

This does not work for 240 volt branches, of course. You'd need a 240 volt KAW or
better, the clamp-on wattmeter.



Thanks for the detailed instructions on this.



--
Steve
southiowa

weltschmerz
Pronunciation: 'velt-"shmerts
Function: noun

: mental depression or apathy caused by comparison of the actual state
of the world with an ideal state

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:02:41 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

wrote:
Every electric bill I have ever gotten clearly states if it's an
estimate or actual reading. My company places a code in front of the
amount. I think mine uses EST as estimate and ACT as actual.

By chance, when the main wires fell, I assume you were still connected
to the transformer (in other words the primary wires fell). Could
someone have connected a generator to one of the houses connected to
the transformer, which backfed to other houses?


We happen to be on a forked dead end of the power line. The wires broke
with 4 houses connected to each other via the lines, but not to outside
power. Our transformer is on the pole behind the house and lines are on
the pole and underground from the xformer to the house.
AFAIK all 4 houses had generators, but I don't know how the other 3 were
hooked up. Ours didn't go near the circuit box or meter.
If someone did connect to the lines which energized to backfeed to our
house wouldn't our house power have been restored by their generator? I
don't understand how a backfeed could affect our meter without providing
power.
Thanks for you thoughts.

Steve
southiowa

OK, in reviewing the thread and responses, you appear to have a
mystery. Part of solving it to your satisfaction involves getting
more information.

First, you seem to have four houses in the affected group. I am
assuming that they don't share a common transformer? Can you get
further info on usage at the other three houses, such as actual
previous month and previous year usage? That would confirm or not if
you were the only one really affected.

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

Third, where is your meter in relation to your house and the
underground lines? If you have a conduit underground from your meter
to your house, is there any possibility that the wire in that conduit
was nicked in installation or spliced, and water entered the conduit
during the storm? If so, until the water contacting the exposed wires
was heated enough by the resistance to evaporate away, there could
have been a short. Once it was evaporated, usage would go back to
normal.

Fourth, did you notice light bulbs burning out when the power was
restored, toast in a toaster oven cooking faster than normal, etc.?
If the voltage was high enough to crate usage issues, this should have
been an obvious tip-off. Can you report actual voltages from both
legs of the main breaker panel?

Fifth: "During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently
during the daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few
lights ." Did you plug the generator into a wall socket, or run
extension cords, or is it permanently attached through a transfer
switch? It shouldn't make a spit worth of difference, but in the
interest of getting as much information as possible, I'm curious.

Sixth: You mention that there were originally two leads to power your
area and now there is one, which means that there were linesmen
working on the line. I'll leave it to John and others to determine if
there is any way that an incorrect connection, or wrong transformer
tap connection, or anything else could have done something like double
or quintuple the voltage coming to the meter for an hour or two or
otherwise upset the meter. I can't think of any way offhand, but I
don't have the expertise to say if it is or isn't possible.

Steve IA said (on or about) 01/19/2008 10:40:
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This
Bus) which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity
Reclamation Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy
Department). You should file a claim with them.

Hi,

Maybe the simplest answer is the best. The guy reading the meter made
a mistake and copied down one of the digits incorrectly. Hence your
high bill. I would simply cal up the power company, explain the
situation and ask them to re-read your meter. Also you can check your
meter reading with the one on your bill. Did the guy read it
correctly?

Best, Mike.



On Jan 19, 10:40*am, Steve IA wrote:
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. *December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. *Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. *So far this month of January, *we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. *I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. *I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. *They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. *I'm not buying it. *They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. *
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. * No extra
Xmas lights, *no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. *I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. *I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

wrote:


OK, in reviewing the thread and responses, you appear to have a
mystery. Part of solving it to your satisfaction involves getting
more information.

First, you seem to have four houses in the affected group. I am
assuming that they don't share a common transformer? Can you get
further info on usage at the other three houses, such as actual
previous month and previous year usage? That would confirm or not if
you were the only one really affected.


No, we each have our own xformer. I've only spoken to 1 and he didn't
have (and I doubt many non-anal people have) records as good as mine.

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

That's an interesting thought. 1/4 mile the other direction is a string
of houses on a seperate dead end line that NEVER lost power. (da bums)
I'll see If I can get info from them.

Third, where is your meter in relation to your house and the
underground lines? If you have a conduit underground from your meter
to your house, is there any possibility that the wire in that conduit
was nicked in installation or spliced, and water entered the conduit
during the storm? If so, until the water contacting the exposed wires
was heated enough by the resistance to evaporate away, there could
have been a short. Once it was evaporated, usage would go back to
normal.

The meter is on a pole 30 from the back door. Overhead wires into the
xformer and underground to the house. I have no reason to believe there
would be moisture in there all of a sudden.

Fourth, did you notice light bulbs burning out when the power was
restored, toast in a toaster oven cooking faster than normal, etc.?
If the voltage was high enough to crate usage issues, this should have
been an obvious tip-off. Can you report actual voltages from both
legs of the main breaker panel?

No unusual bulb burn or quick toast. ~120 vac both sides

Fifth: "During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently
during the daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few
lights ." Did you plug the generator into a wall socket, or run
extension cords, or is it permanently attached through a transfer
switch? It shouldn't make a spit worth of difference, but in the
interest of getting as much information as possible, I'm curious.

Extension cords.

Sixth: You mention that there were originally two leads to power your
area and now there is one, which means that there were linesmen
working on the line. I'll leave it to John and others to determine if
there is any way that an incorrect connection, or wrong transformer
tap connection, or anything else could have done something like double
or quintuple the voltage coming to the meter for an hour or two or
otherwise upset the meter. I can't think of any way offhand, but I
don't have the expertise to say if it is or isn't possible.

There were 2 lines prior to the storm. Upon restoration there was and
still is only 1 line feeding us.

Good questions all. thanks.

Steve
southiowa

Elmo wrote:


I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus)
which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity Reclamation
Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy Department). You
should file a claim with them.

I get strange looks when I say "We're all Bozos on this bus". Glad to
see I'm not alone.

Steve

--
"But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on.
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on."

-Pete Seeger

wrote:


Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

I just talked to 2 neighbors who didn't lose power. They saw no great
rise in there bill. Just that Dec was a little higher than Nov. which,
according to my records is pretty normal.
The REC will have the heating degree data when I talk to them tomorrow.

Steve

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.

By the way, I learned 2 things.
#1. DO NOT try to chop a cord buried under snow/ice with a shovel. I
thought I was far enough away from the cord with the shovel before
cutting one of the cords in half.

#2 The right way to do this job is on a warmer day, using a garden
hose to melt thru the ice (with cords unplugged of course).

Oh well, I needed a few shorter cords anyhow..... The chopped one is
now two shorter cords, after buying a male and a female plug !!!!


BBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRR BBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
BBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

On Jan 20, 12:46 pm, Steve IA wrote:
Elmo wrote:

I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus)
which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity Reclamation
Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy Department). You
should file a claim with them.

I get strange looks when I say "We're all Bozos on this bus". Glad to
see I'm not alone.

Ah, Clem.

On Jan 19, 11:05*am, Red Green wrote:
Steve IA wrote :





xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653
kwh with a range of 120. *December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This
would not have been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice
storm, we had NO electricity for 6.5 days. *Billing cycle per the bill
was 31 days. I was expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill
and was dismayed when it was actually higher. *So far this month of
January, *we are using at the about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did
in December, the only odd thing is that we had NO power of nearly a
week in December. *I've spoken with a few neighbors who also lost
power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up or didn't go down
as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of no usage. *I
ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. *They also tried to
blame 'recovery usage'. *I'm not buying it. *They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked
and the meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her
not $$ which can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. *
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of
unusual that would increase the consumption over the previous
December. * No extra Xmas lights, *no 'recovery' usage after power
restoration other than 1 refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody
running an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it
quit turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house
circuit breakers and watching the meter but have isolated nothing
unusual yet. With all house breakers off the meter stops. *I have
purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun looking for the energy thief.

In VT, you call and they will lend you one for a month for free. They
even provide a return box all labeled and postpaid. Requires credit card
so they can charge you if you fail to return.



I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines
fell but only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any
bearing? What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That you Dave?

On Jan 19, 11:17*am, Jack Hunt wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:54:33 GMT, franz fripplfrappl wrote:
Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read.

Re-read the original post, especially the part that says:



I ask the REC and they said we
'just used more'. *They also tried to blame 'recovery usage'. *I'm not
buying it. *They claim they didn't estimate the bill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What are you doing here? You should be out riding

Bruce

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.


What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much loss
to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of leakage
to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric bill, Maybe
a dime a month.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:21:49 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.


What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much loss
to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of leakage
to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric bill, Maybe
a dime a month.




I agree, and I am not really worrying about it. The only reason I
wanted to move the one cord was because in between the most severe
weather I added another closer outlet on the outside of the barn wall,
thus cutting the cord distance from 70ft. to 25ft. It was just a
matter of tapping off an indoor GFI on the inside of that wall and
putting an outdoor box opposite it.

What you said is mostly just that there is always a little liquid
going to get between any plug that is not covered or sealed. I swear
that cords tend to separate themselves too. I make them tight, but
there seems to always be a 1/32 inch gap later on. I tend to think
condensation expands them apart.

I did manage to cover a few of them by wrapping them with a plastic
bag. Not perfect but it all helps. As far as I recall, all but one
are wrapped now. The bad weather got us so fast this tear I never got
things put together as well as I wanted. I just cope with it and hope
spring comes soon. I hate winter.

Take care

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:36:28 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

wrote:


OK, in reviewing the thread and responses, you appear to have a
mystery. Part of solving it to your satisfaction involves getting
more information.

First, you seem to have four houses in the affected group. I am
assuming that they don't share a common transformer? Can you get
further info on usage at the other three houses, such as actual
previous month and previous year usage? That would confirm or not if
you were the only one really affected.


No, we each have our own xformer. I've only spoken to 1 and he didn't
have (and I doubt many non-anal people have) records as good as mine.

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

That's an interesting thought. 1/4 mile the other direction is a string
of houses on a seperate dead end line that NEVER lost power. (da bums)
I'll see If I can get info from them.

Third, where is your meter in relation to your house and the
underground lines? If you have a conduit underground from your meter
to your house, is there any possibility that the wire in that conduit
was nicked in installation or spliced, and water entered the conduit
during the storm? If so, until the water contacting the exposed wires
was heated enough by the resistance to evaporate away, there could
have been a short. Once it was evaporated, usage would go back to
normal.

The meter is on a pole 30 from the back door. Overhead wires into the
xformer and underground to the house. I have no reason to believe there
would be moisture in there all of a sudden.

Fourth, did you notice light bulbs burning out when the power was
restored, toast in a toaster oven cooking faster than normal, etc.?
If the voltage was high enough to crate usage issues, this should have
been an obvious tip-off. Can you report actual voltages from both
legs of the main breaker panel?

No unusual bulb burn or quick toast. ~120 vac both sides

Fifth: "During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently
during the daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few
lights ." Did you plug the generator into a wall socket, or run
extension cords, or is it permanently attached through a transfer
switch? It shouldn't make a spit worth of difference, but in the
interest of getting as much information as possible, I'm curious.

Extension cords.

Sixth: You mention that there were originally two leads to power your
area and now there is one, which means that there were linesmen
working on the line. I'll leave it to John and others to determine if
there is any way that an incorrect connection, or wrong transformer
tap connection, or anything else could have done something like double
or quintuple the voltage coming to the meter for an hour or two or
otherwise upset the meter. I can't think of any way offhand, but I
don't have the expertise to say if it is or isn't possible.

There were 2 lines prior to the storm. Upon restoration there was and
still is only 1 line feeding us.

Good questions all. thanks.

Steve
southiowa

I dont understand the 2 wire one wire thing. You got to have two
wires to complete any circuit. One furnishes the hot voltage, the
other is the neurtal/ground. I hope they are not relying on ground
rods to supply the ground. -OR- is this now a twisted cable (triplex)
(or would it be called duplex?)
I dont understand this....

With all the questions and answers, I do not recall. Did YOU read the
meter? Maybe the power company is just screwing you. The problem is
not electrical at all, it's accounting in the billing office........ ?

hobbes wrote:

Hi,

Maybe the simplest answer is the best. The guy reading the meter made
a mistake and copied down one of the digits incorrectly. Hence your
high bill. I would simply cal up the power company, explain the
situation and ask them to re-read your meter. Also you can check your
meter reading with the one on your bill. Did the guy read it
correctly?

Best, Mike.

That conflicts with:

a) his read of the meter shortly after receiving the bill confirming the
reasonableness of the reading

b) other households in the area experiencing the same thing




On Jan 19, 10:40 am, Steve IA wrote:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA




--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:


ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve


I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.

That's not from "leakage." It's from resistive heating at the junction.
The wire/plug/socket/wire combination has a higher resistance than uncut
wire.


By the way, I learned 2 things.
#1. DO NOT try to chop a cord buried under snow/ice with a shovel. I
thought I was far enough away from the cord with the shovel before
cutting one of the cords in half.

#2 The right way to do this job is on a warmer day, using a garden
hose to melt thru the ice (with cords unplugged of course).

Oh well, I needed a few shorter cords anyhow..... The chopped one is
now two shorter cords, after buying a male and a female plug !!!!


BBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRR BBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
BBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR




--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Bruce Richmond wrote in
:

On Jan 19, 11:05*am, Red Green wrote:
Steve IA wrote

lid:




That you Dave?

Dave's not here, man. :-)


But if you actually are Bruce Richmond and you mean Dave Richmond,
everybody around the Junction knows Dave from somewhere.


(Soft knocks at the door)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's me, Dave. Open up, man, I got the stuff.
(More knocks)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's me, Dave, man. Open up, I got the stuff.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. Open up, I think the cops saw me come in here.
(More knocks)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. Will you open up, I got the stuff with me.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave, man. Open up.
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave. C'mon, man, open up, I think the cops saw me.
CHONG: Dave's not here.
CHEECH: No, man, I'm Dave, man.
(Sharp knocks at the door)
CHEECH: Hey, c'mon, man.
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave, man. Open up.
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave.
CHONG: Dave's not here.
CHEECH: What the hell? No, man, I am Dave, man. Will you...
(More knocks)
CHEECH: C'mon! Open up the door, will you? I got the stuff with me, I
think the cops
saw me.
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: Oh, what the hell is it...c'mon. Open up the door! It's Dave!
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave! D-A-V-E! Will you open up the goddam door!
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave!
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Right, man. Dave. Now will you open up the door?
CHONG: Dave's not here.

wrote:

I dont understand the 2 wire one wire thing. You got to have two
wires to complete any circuit. One furnishes the hot voltage, the
other is the neurtal/ground. I hope they are not relying on ground
rods to supply the ground. -OR- is this now a twisted cable (triplex)
(or would it be called duplex?)
I dont understand this....

That's a possibility. I'll ask the REC about this.

With all the questions and answers, I do not recall. Did YOU read the
meter? Maybe the power company is just screwing you. The problem is
not electrical at all, it's accounting in the billing office........ ?

I read the meter immediately after getting the bill and the usage from
the bill reading date until the day I read the meter has been in line
with normal 6 year average usage. (21 kwh/day)

In , Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Steve IA" wrote in message
I first noticed that the snow had melted where the 2 cords joined, but
didn't think much of it as it was before I had gotten the bill. The
junction was in the clear then so any leakage could have been transient.
Besides, this cord is on a timer and only runs 2 hours a day to power a
block heater on the school bus. It comes on 1 hour in the AM prior to bus
startup time and 1 in the afternoon, although often the heater (1000
tested kw) isn't plugged in during most warmer afternoons.
I tested the cords and the heater 1st thing with my kill a watt as it was
suspicious to me also.

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I don't see coiled extension cords making electromagnetic heaters. The
current through the two current-carrying conductors goes in opposite
directions so their magnetic fields cancel each other out pretty well.
The inductance will be negligible. EMF across this inductance would be
millivolts. Multiply that EMF by the cord current, and any power in any
induced currents has to be a fraction of that.

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat. Years
ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block heater. Where
the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat translates to energy
use.

Coiling the cord made the heat being dissipated in the cord conductors
more confined. Extension cords can overheat, especially if coiled,
bunched up, or placed under carpets. Beware of the current rating and the
wire size - some extension cords have thinner conductors and lower current
ratings than others that have similar appearance. For example, I have
seen some very industrial-looking extension cords with 16 AWG conductors.

One more thing - I have noticed that extension cords with 16 AWG
conductors tend to have a current rating of 13 amps, while 14 AWG tends to
be rated 15 amps and 12 AWG tends to be rated 20 amps. It appears to me
that 16 AWG cords have a less conservative rating.

Another thing to watch for with electrical cords in general: Every so
often, check to see if the ends heat up. The ends are where most metal
fatigue damage to the strands of wire occurs - usually within 4 inches of
the ends. If the ends heat up, discard the cords or cut the end few
inches off and replace the plugs/connectors.

- Don Klipstein )

In , Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Steve IA
wrote:

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Yep. The breaker won't trip unless the current exceeds the breaker's rated
capacity. A continuous 1A leak won't even come close to tripping a 15A
breaker, but costs you 1A * 120V * 24 hrs = almost 3 kwh per day.

A 1 amp leak is unusual - and serious. That is 120 watts. If there is
an actual 1 amp leak, most of that 120 watts of heat will probably be
being generated in a small localized area - maybe carbonizing or burning
up insulation somewhere.

A 1 amp leak through water will almost certainly cause some serious
electrolytic corrosion.

If you find such an animal as a 1 amp leak, find where it is occurring,
and repair it before you have a fire. I expect there to be damage and
maybe smoke.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.

What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much
loss to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of
leakage to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric
bill, Maybe a dime a month.

Heating at plugs is usually from partial breakage of the conductors due
to metal fatigue. One common cause is pulling on the cable rather than
the plug to unplug them. Also, pulling on cords to move them while they
are plugged to others, to the extent as to move the connected cords, may
cause this.

Plugs warming up can be a fire hazard. See if they warm up
significantly, or there is only negligible heating that may be a normal
amount from contact resistance. If plugs/sockets or wire within a couple
inches of the them gets noticeably warm, or warmer than the cable more
than a few inches from the ends, then it is good to cut off the ends (and
a few inches of cable) and replace the plugs/sockets. (Or replace the
whole cord.)

A few milliamps leakage from hot to ground and several milliamps more
from hot to neutral (which is closer than ground) can ammount to a good
watt - and I see that sometimes melting snow in a localized area over a
day. However, I think warm plugs/sockets are more likely to warm up from
extra resistance from contact resistance, cheap connection of wires to
plugs/sockets, or wires with some strands broken at the plugs/sockets due
to metal fatigue.

- Don Klipstein )