xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653
kwh with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would
not have been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we
had NO electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31
days. I was expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was
dismayed when it was actually higher. So far this month of January, we
are using at the about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December,
the only odd thing is that we had NO power of nearly a week in December.
I've spoken with a few neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think
of it' their bill went up or didn't go down as much as they would have
expected for a 20-25% time of no usage. I ask the REC and they said we
'just used more'. They also tried to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not
buying it. They claim they didn't estimate the bill and when I received
the bill I immediately checked and the meter reading seemed in line with
normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which can be affected by rate
changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights . We
relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. For the entire
billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual that would
increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra Xmas
lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace. Gas
water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody
running an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it
quit turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet.
With all house breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a
-Watt and have begun looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing
yet, although the KAW is fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA




Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. Instead
they take an average. Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?

Steve IA wrote in
:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653
kwh with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This
would not have been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice
storm, we had NO electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill
was 31 days. I was expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill
and was dismayed when it was actually higher. So far this month of
January, we are using at the about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did
in December, the only odd thing is that we had NO power of nearly a
week in December. I've spoken with a few neighbors who also lost
power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up or didn't go down
as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of no usage. I
ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried to
blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked
and the meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her
not $$ which can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of
unusual that would increase the consumption over the previous
December. No extra Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power
restoration other than 1 refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody
running an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it
quit turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house
circuit breakers and watching the meter but have isolated nothing
unusual yet. With all house breakers off the meter stops. I have
purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun looking for the energy thief.

In VT, you call and they will lend you one for a month for free. They
even provide a return box all labeled and postpaid. Requires credit card
so they can charge you if you fail to return.

I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines
fell but only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any
bearing? What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:54:33 GMT, franz fripplfrappl
wrote:

Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. Instead
they take an average. Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?

It can be frustrating for a poster to write a detailed description of
a situation, only to read a response from somebody who obviously
didn't read it.

Here is the part of the OP's posting that should have prevented your
question:

I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried to
blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked
and the meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her
not $$ which can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc."

I suspect that some utilities have lax procedures that benefit them,
but are only detectable during situations like this.

Bernardo

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:
...
Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

See what your next bill is. My REC actually reads only every other month;
they estimate the other "readings". I started using compact fluorescent
bulbs (and otherwise reduced usage) a couple years ago and they're still
estimating the interim months about 25% high.

Also, readings aren't necessarily the exact meter reading. Where I
previously lived, the meter reader handset showed estimated readings for
customer accounts. If the estimated reading wasn't too far off, the meter
reader accepted the estimate rather than keying in the actual reading.

On Jan 19, 9:54*am, franz fripplfrappl wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653
kwh with a range of 120. *December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would
not have been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we
had NO electricity for 6.5 days. *Billing cycle per the bill was 31
days. I was expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was
dismayed when it was actually higher. *So far this month of January, *we
are using at the about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December,
the only odd thing is that we had NO power of nearly a week in December.
*I've spoken with a few neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think
of it' their bill went up or didn't go down as much as they would have
expected for a 20-25% time of no usage. *I ask the REC and they said we
'just used more'. *They also tried to blame 'recovery usage'. *I'm not
buying it. *They claim they didn't estimate the bill and when I received
the bill I immediately checked and the meter reading seemed in line with
normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which can be affected by rate
changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights . We
relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. For the entire
billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual that would
increase the consumption over the previous December. * No extra Xmas
lights, *no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace. Gas
water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody
running an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it
quit turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet.
With all house breakers off the meter stops. *I have purchase a Kill-a
-Watt and have begun looking for the energy thief. *I've found nothing
yet, although the KAW is fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. *Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. *Instead
they take an average. *Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think? *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground. When you are done
you will know what everything uses in power and standby and know what
to change. Dec is maybe the darkest month so you of course use more
electricty to light you home turning lights on earlier and off later.
Your boiler or furnace runs more consuming more electricity. Try CFLs
and unlugging things not used, most everything takes standby power
and wastes electricity not even being used, even you garage door can
be put on a switch. I found my sprinkler system timer was costing me
1$ a month over the winter being left plugged in. 680 kwh is alot, im
down to 200-275 or so

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:54:33 GMT, franz fripplfrappl wrote:

Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read.

Re-read the original post, especially the part that says:

I ask the REC and they said we
'just used more'. They also tried to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not
buying it. They claim they didn't estimate the bill

Steve IA wrote:
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

I know you said they did not estimate this bill, but what about the
previous month(s)?
Did the outage span over 2 billing cycles?
Kevin

Steve,

You provide a lot of good information. You state that your 12/07 usage
was 682 kwh (27.3 kwh/day for 25 days). You tell us that the power was out
for 20% of that billing cycle. You tell us that in past Decembers you have
used from 533 (17.2/day for 31 days)to 773 (24.9/day) kwh. I don't see much
theft here, could easily be normal variation.

Dave M.

David L. Martel wrote:
Steve,

You provide a lot of good information. You state that your 12/07 usage
was 682 kwh (27.3 kwh/day for 25 days). You tell us that the power was out
for 20% of that billing cycle. You tell us that in past Decembers you have
used from 533 (17.2/day for 31 days)to 773 (24.9/day) kwh. I don't see much
theft here, could easily be normal variation.

Very good post to convert to a range of previous usages on a daily basis
which shows only a 10% roughly higher than previous rate (27.3/24.7 ~
1.1). I'd not ascribe it to anything but normal variation based on
that, especially if there's on indication of stray current when loads
are off as indicated.

Being a REC, it's probably a neighbor who does the meter-reading; they
could probably tell you if they had made an estimate the previous month
or not. We're small enough we still hand-read; a transcription error a
month ago might have been smaller than normal too, which you just made
up for this past month.

--

"Steve IA" wrote in message
...
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not
have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing
is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also
tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and
the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all
house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have
begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

Another key parameter you need to share but did not is the average
temperature over the billing period. My utility company provides this, as
well as the number of KWh and days.

Is it possible the avergage temperature was colder than the same month one
year earlier? This could explain a higher usage even with 6 days of no
usage.

"David L. Martel" wrote:

Steve,

You provide a lot of good information. You state that your 12/07 usage
was 682 kwh (27.3 kwh/day for 25 days). You tell us that the power was out
for 20% of that billing cycle. You tell us that in past Decembers you have
used from 533 (17.2/day for 31 days)to 773 (24.9/day) kwh. I don't see much
theft here, could easily be normal variation.

Dave M.

Dave,
Thanks for the return.
I guess I'm not following your calculations. I will give you actuals and
maybe I can see where you're coming from
Dec 07 - 682 kwh on a 31 day billing cycle = 22 kwh/day
Previous 6 years Dec: assuming 31 day billing cycle for all
02- 611 =19.7kwh/day
03- 702 =22.6
04 -663 =21.4
05 -676 =21.8
06 -581 =18.7
07 -682 =22

avg = 653
range = 702-581 = 121

I agree that it is well within normal variation if I had used elec every of
the 31 days, but I only used for 80% of the time.
Steve

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:
"Steve IA" wrote in message
...
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not
have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing
is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also
tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and
the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all
house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have
begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

Another key parameter you need to share but did not is the average
temperature over the billing period. My utility company provides this, as
well as the number of KWh and days.

Is it possible the avergage temperature was colder than the same month one
year earlier? This could explain a higher usage even with 6 days of no
usage.


It was colder, but very little of our usage goes to heating the house.
Certainly not cold enough to mitigate the days of 0 use.
We installed a new fireplace in November and our LP usage has dropped so
much that I chased the tank wagon away the other day as we had used less
than 150 gals between September and jan 10th.

"Steve IA" wrote in message
...
xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not
have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing
is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also
tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and
the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit
breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all
house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have
begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell
but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.


Steve is it possible that as a result of the ice storm and the holidays that
you spent more time at home than you normally would on an average work day.
I'm thinking that your living patterns during that time period were such
that your power consumption may have been higher. Perhaps you are the type
of people where your lifestyle has you going out a lot, but because of the
weather you were forced to stay at home. I don't know about where you live,
but my electric rate is higher during the week days and during daylight
hours than at night. Maybe you were home more during peak periods.

On Jan 19, 12:12�pm, Steve IA wrote:
ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

they could cause a leak current that would waste electricity but not
cause a tripped breaker

John Grabowski wrote:



Steve is it possible that as a result of the ice storm and the holidays that
you spent more time at home than you normally would on an average work day.
I'm thinking that your living patterns during that time period were such
that your power consumption may have been higher. Perhaps you are the type
of people where your lifestyle has you going out a lot, but because of the
weather you were forced to stay at home. I don't know about where you live,
but my electric rate is higher during the week days and during daylight
hours than at night. Maybe you were home more during peak periods.



We are retired and away from family and this hasn't changed in 3 years.
We did no entertaining, extra lighting or cooking beyond normal
December stuff.
Thanks.

Steve

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve


If you think the cords are suspect you can use your kill-a-watt meter.
Check the readings at each end of the cord. If it is leaking at the
junction or at a bad spot in the insulation you might be able to
measure it with the meter.

Steve IA wrote:
"David L. Martel" wrote:
Steve,

You provide a lot of good information. You state that your 12/07 usage
was 682 kwh (27.3 kwh/day for 25 days). You tell us that the power was out
for 20% of that billing cycle. You tell us that in past Decembers you have
used from 533 (17.2/day for 31 days)to 773 (24.9/day) kwh. I don't see much
theft here, could easily be normal variation.

Dave M.

Dave,
Thanks for the return.
I guess I'm not following your calculations. I will give you actuals and
maybe I can see where you're coming from
Dec 07 - 682 kwh on a 31 day billing cycle = 22 kwh/day
Previous 6 years Dec: assuming 31 day billing cycle for all
02- 611 =19.7kwh/day
03- 702 =22.6
04 -663 =21.4
05 -676 =21.8
06 -581 =18.7
07 -682 =22

avg = 653
range = 702-581 = 121

I agree that it is well within normal variation if I had used elec every of
the 31 days, but I only used for 80% of the time.

Previous max was 22.7; this was 22*0.8=17.6 -- 22.7/17.6 = 1.3 instead
of previous 1.1. I didn't check the numbers. Still, don't have the
comparative degree-days to see how much that might be a factor.

I'd still say it's unlikely to be anything except an anomaly in usage
combined w/ billing cycle. Could possibly have had some leakage during
the outage if there were some damage somewhere on your feed...I'd only
worry much if it is still abnormal for another month.

--

In article , Steve IA wrote:

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Yep. The breaker won't trip unless the current exceeds the breaker's rated
capacity. A continuous 1A leak won't even come close to tripping a 15A
breaker, but costs you 1A * 120V * 24 hrs = almost 3 kwh per day.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jan 19, 11:12*am, Steve IA wrote:
ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

I would think it possible, so can bad switches, outlets, and
apliances, wiring, etc. I was told of someone that almost died when he
removed the ground strap off his water meter, the short was so bad
they later figured it was costing them 20$ a month , at 1980s rates,
for years. I had a bad outlet I found. Motors, compressors that are
near end of life can consume alot more, My frige defrost clock timer
broke costing me about 50$ more one month. I have also had the meter
reader guy several times in one year misread my meter by 10-200$. Ive
made it a point of knowing when he comes and checking it within 5
minutes of his reading. Do your own audit, the K-A-W meter is great,
you can even get a data logger or a unit that goes on the exterior
meter that will data log so you can see all usage.

Many years ago my electric bill was about three times usual. Come to
find out that my septic pump was running continuously because of a stuck
switch. The pump is in an underground tank so it's running was not
audible.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Steve IA wrote:
ransley wrote:
...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

Yes you can have wasted power, more so if the water is dirty*, but it
seems to me if it was a significant short then there would have been a
significant amount of heat generated at that connection. A 15A circuit
can put out up to 1800 Watts before the circuit breaker trips. Even a 7
Watt bulb would have melted the snow and dried the connection.

*I recently had a sewer pump that had a dead short to ground. I measured
about 0.25A or 30 Watts loss going into ground when the pump was on.
(The PO disconnected the ground wire so the pump would continue to
operate without blowing the breaker!)

If your cord was on GFCI then that should have tripped.

Kevin

HE SAID he talked to the company and HE SAID it wasn't an estimate.


s


"franz fripplfrappl" wrote in message
t...




Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. Instead
they take an average. Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?

nope, a direct short would open the breaker. now they CAN sizzle and create
heat without opening the breaker. I've seen that on our cord across the
yard where the dogs opened the insulation.

s

"Steve IA" wrote in message
...
ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

On Jan 19, 1:10*pm, "S. Barker" wrote:
HE SAID he talked to the company and HE SAID it wasn't an estimate.

s

"franz fripplfrappl" wrote in message

t...





Check your utility bill to see if it is an estimate or direct read. *Some
utilities try to save money by not reading meters every month. *Instead
they take an average. *Any differences are made up in subsequent billing
cycles.

Have you called the utility to find out what they think?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The meter guy could have read a number wrong, Ive had it happen a few
times.

so you're trying to tell us they charge a different rate during different
times of a day? How, when they come read the total, do they know which
KWHours were daytime and which KWhours were nitetime???? Are you sure
you're not talking about your phone bill?

s



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
I don't know about where you live,
but my electric rate is higher during the week days and during daylight
hours than at night. Maybe you were home more during peak periods.

Terry wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:
...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.
Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve


If you think the cords are suspect you can use your kill-a-watt meter.
Check the readings at each end of the cord. If it is leaking at the
junction or at a bad spot in the insulation you might be able to
measure it with the meter.


I first noticed that the snow had melted where the 2 cords joined, but
didn't think much of it as it was before I had gotten the bill. The
junction was in the clear then so any leakage could have been transient.
Besides, this cord is on a timer and only runs 2 hours a day to power a
block heater on the school bus. It comes on 1 hour in the AM prior to
bus startup time and 1 in the afternoon, although often the heater (1000
tested kw) isn't plugged in during most warmer afternoons.
I tested the cords and the heater 1st thing with my kill a watt as it
was suspicious to me also.

Talked to a couple more neighbors and their December bill was also
higher than expected. I will verify with the REC that these readings
were not estimated. The clerk who I spoke to may not know the whole
story.
Thanks

Steve IA wrote:
....

Talked to a couple more neighbors and their December bill was also
higher than expected. I will verify with the REC that these readings
were not estimated. The clerk who I spoke to may not know the whole story.

Don't you know your neighbor who's almost surely the reader to talk to
directly? How big a REC is this? Do you go to the annual meetings?
You, after all, are a co-op member here...

On top of the above leakage path identified, what about ice-damage etc.?
Also, if you're still really deeply concerned, the other respondent
mentioned a sump pump stuck on; we had a well pump run continuously for
quite some time (owing to a small enough that it could keep the system
pressurized so it wasn't noticeable in water service) and it was the
neighbor who discovered it when she read the meter (owing to water
management requirements, wells other than only household here are
required to be metered separately to record estimated water usage for
water table usage estimates) and noticed it was way out of line...

Also, still no information on the actual degree-days of that particular
month as compared to the historical averages...add up a few per cent for
the discovered leakage, a few percent for temperature, and a little for
unfound or perhaps a recording error from the previous month and it
could well end up within the range of expected usage...

--

Per ransley:
The meter guy could have read a number wrong, Ive had it happen a few
times.

There's also a practice known as "curb stoning". Reader wants
to finish his route earlier.... sits down on a curbstone and
makes up some numbers.
--
PeteCresswell

"Steve IA" wrote in message
I first noticed that the snow had melted where the 2 cords joined, but
didn't think much of it as it was before I had gotten the bill. The
junction was in the clear then so any leakage could have been transient.
Besides, this cord is on a timer and only runs 2 hours a day to power a
block heater on the school bus. It comes on 1 hour in the AM prior to bus
startup time and 1 in the afternoon, although often the heater (1000
tested kw) isn't plugged in during most warmer afternoons.
I tested the cords and the heater 1st thing with my kill a watt as it was
suspicious to me also.


Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat. Years
ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block heater. Where
the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat translates to energy
use.

| I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
| to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
| estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and
the
| meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
| can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Perhaps the meter reader is 'cooping' and the utility does not know it.

We had a similar problem. We hooked up a motion activated 'critter cam'
facing the meter. No one showed up for months then the bill jumped.
Surprise, surprise that was the month the meter was really read.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Steve IA" wrote in message
I first noticed that the snow had melted where the 2 cords joined, but
didn't think much of it as it was before I had gotten the bill. The
junction was in the clear then so any leakage could have been transient.
Besides, this cord is on a timer and only runs 2 hours a day to power a
block heater on the school bus. It comes on 1 hour in the AM prior to bus
startup time and 1 in the afternoon, although often the heater (1000
tested kw) isn't plugged in during most warmer afternoons.
I tested the cords and the heater 1st thing with my kill a watt as it was
suspicious to me also.


Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat. Years
ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block heater. Where
the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat translates to energy
use.


Not coiled, but loosely tied in an overhand knot to keep it from
inadvertently getting pulled apart.

Steve

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

Where would the electricity go?

It didn't "go" anywhere. The higher bill is probably a combination of actually using
a little more electricity and "catching up" from the co-op's reading estimation.

Few rural co-ops read every meter every month. Many only read every 3 months or so.
In the interval they estimate your bill based on past history. If they
under-estimate for a couple of months then the "catch up" bill can be startling.

When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?

No.

Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?

No.

What am I missing?

Probably how your utility works.

What other testing can I do?

One of the most useful things you can do is to read your meter every day at the same
time for some period and look for patterns. I have a simple energy audit spreadsheet
that you can download he

http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm

It has a page where you can record your daily readings and compute usage.

A call to your co-op should reveal whether they using meter estimating and what their
actual read interval is. Many co-ops have a program where the customer can read his
own meter once a month and mail in a postcard. You might inquire about that. That
would eliminate any estimating.

One thing to be informed about and wary of. Many rural co-ops are converting to
self-reading meters. That is, meters that report their readings to the co-op,
usually by data-over-power line. I have witnessed and am witnessing some real
cluster-fscks in the transition process. One of my client utilities hired a
contractor to do the conversion which involved recording the final reading of the old
meter and they, in turn, hired minimum wage workers. The error rate went through the
ceiling. Some people got bills of multi-thousand kWh, which is what happens if the
reader misses the most significant dial by one or more digits.

I am also witnessing some cheap and awful meters being installed. The infant
mortality rate is very high and the accuracy is questionable.

Bottom line: you should know if your co-op has or is converting to self-readers. If
they are then it is even more important to track your usage on a daily basis. If
your usage remains basically the same but the meter suddenly indicated that you're
using more (or less - that'll catch up with you too) then you need to alert the co-op
immediately. The meter's electronics may have taken a surge hit and gone out of
spec. Old mechanical meters were stone-cold reliable and held calibration for
decades. The jury is still (far) out on the new electronic ones, especially the
lower end ones.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I'm going crazy. Wanna come along?

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
so you're trying to tell us they charge a different rate during different
times of a day? How, when they come read the total, do they know which
KWHours were daytime and which KWhours were nitetime???? Are you sure
you're not talking about your phone bill?


It is called "Time of Day Service" from Jersey Central Power and Light.
They have a special meter for this. I actually have four electric power
rates thoughout the year. There is a night and day rate for the winter
months and a night and day rate for the summer months. The daytime summer
rate is the highest at about .22 per KWH. The cheapest rate for winter
nights is around .13 per KWH. Weekends are the same as nights.

Don't even get me started on my phone bill. lol



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
I don't know about where you live,
but my electric rate is higher during the week days and during daylight
hours than at night. Maybe you were home more during peak periods.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:13:56 -0800 (PST), ransley wrote:


Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground. When you are done
you will know what everything uses in power and standby and know what
to change. Dec is maybe the darkest month so you of course use more
electricty to light you home turning lights on earlier and off later.
Your boiler or furnace runs more consuming more electricity. Try CFLs
and unlugging things not used, most everything takes standby power
and wastes electricity not even being used, even you garage door can
be put on a switch. I found my sprinkler system timer was costing me
1$ a month over the winter being left plugged in. 680 kwh is alot, im
down to 200-275 or so

This does NOT work unless all the loads are purely resistive and with a power factor
of 1. Most non-resistive loads, and especially sneak loads aren't. That little
sprinkler timer is a perfect example. Those typically have a very low power factor
and draw twice as many VA as watts. Since you only pay for watts, you fool yourself
by measuring volts and amps separately.

There ARE inexpensive clamp-on wattmeters that work nicely. I think that Sears sells
one. I use this one and have found it to be quite accurate in comparison with my lab
standard wattmeter.
http://www.powermeterstore.com/p4457...ower_meter.php

This instrument CAN be used for what you describe and in fact, is what I use mine
for, mainly.

An example of how using a clamp-on meter can fool you, here are the measurements I
just made from a similar timer:

Volts: 115
Amps: 0.012
VA: 1.4
Watts: 0.8
PF: .57

Measuring amps and volts separately and multiplying produces volt-amps instead of
watts. Using volt-amps instead of watts to compute usage would result in almost a
50% error.

The Kill-A-Watt is probably the least expensive tool with adequate accuracy there is
for measuring actual consumption. It can be used to measure branch circuits and is
what I used before I bought my clamp-on wattmeter.

The procedure involves a Jesus cord (male convenience plug on one end of the cord and
alligator clips on the other.

Plug the KAW into an outlet or extension cord. Remove the breaker panel cover. Flip
the breaker of the branch of interest off. Connect the black alligator clip of the
Jesus cord to the breaker output screw. (optional) clip the white alligator clip to
the neutral bus. Plug the Jesus cord into the KAW. The branch is now powered
through the KAW and the KAW displays the vital info.

This does not work for 240 volt branches, of course. You'd need a 240 volt KAW or
better, the clamp-on wattmeter.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA wrote:

ransley wrote:

...

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

I suppose that it could be possible but in practice, a wet cord either doesn't
conduct enough current to matter or it trips the breaker. Conducting significant
current would result in heating that would melt the ice and dry the water, stopping
the conduction.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein

In Neon John writes:
[ snip ]

This does not work for 240 volt branches, of course.
You'd need a 240 volt KAW [kill-a-watt meter] OR
better, the clamp-on wattmeter.

Is such a beast ( a 240 V KAW) available yet? I've
been eagerly waiting for one of them or a competitor....

Thanks

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:39:45 -0600, Steve IA wrote:


Talked to a couple more neighbors and their December bill was also
higher than expected. I will verify with the REC that these readings
were not estimated. The clerk who I spoke to may not know the whole
story.
Thanks

Most likely. I KNOW that my co-op's receptionist and general purpose customer
answer-girl tells customers that they don't estimate. I KNOW equally well (because
I'm friends with the meter department supervisor) that they do.

One other thing that you might want to do is find out the number of degree-days for
that month and the previous month(s). Absent any major change in configuration (new
major appliance, for example), electricity usage for a given customer tracks
remarkably well with degree-days. This holds even for houses where the primary heat
source isn't electricity. Not sure why but that is what the statistics show.

If the degree-days are much lower for the month in question then you can be pretty
sure that you used more energy.

I'm still betting on estimated readings and the one in question being a "catch up".

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:02:43 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per ransley:
The meter guy could have read a number wrong, Ive had it happen a few
times.

There's also a practice known as "curb stoning". Reader wants
to finish his route earlier.... sits down on a curbstone and
makes up some numbers.

Very common practice. So common that there is a regulation that requires a different
meter reader than the regular one work the route at least once a year. (No, I don't
know the regulation number. It's just what I've been told is the basis of that
policy at all my client utilities.)

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. -Marie Curie