In Steve IA writes:

wrote:

I dont understand the 2 wire one wire thing. You got to have two
wires to complete any circuit. One furnishes the hot voltage, the
other is the neurtal/ground. I hope they are not relying on ground
rods to supply the ground. -OR- is this now a twisted cable (triplex)
(or would it be called duplex?)
I dont understand this....

That's a possibility. I'll ask the REC about this.

The most common arrangement in the US (with puuuhlenty of exceptions)
is three wires coming into the house from the transformer.

Two of them are "hot" and they're 180 degrees
apart in phase. The third is a neutral.

So it's possible you're only seeing the two hot
ones and the neutral is blending in the background.

(There's also a safety ground, which is usually terminated
in the, well, ground... near the house).

This lets you get both 120V and 240V service. The lower
voltage, which is standard in US outlets, uses one hot leg
and the neutral (and the safety ground). To get 240V, you
run both hot legs to the outlet or appliance (such as
an electric oven).

I've seen situations where one of the hot legs is _temporarily_
bypassed [a] and both parts of the house circuit are fed
by a single leg. The technician doing this _must_ make sure
there are no 240V appliances in the home and this is most assuredly
a very short term setup.

[a] a neighbor of my mother's in NYC [b], fed by underground cables
that zigged and zagged down the street. Half his home
was dark when he called her, and she called me... I checked
and saw that only half his panel was energized.

The utility came out and jumped things until they could
run a new cable a bit later.

[b] While Manhattan is apartment buildings/coops/other
large stuff, other areas of the city have private homes.

Think back to the "All in the Family", or nowadays, "Ugly Betty".

I have _NO_ idea what this would do to a meter that's
designed to read based on two hot legs. My gut feeling is
it should be a-ok, since the house wouldn't be guaranteed
to have the two legs be anywhere near an equal load...


,


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__________________________________________________ ___
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[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

In ,
wrote in part:

What you said is mostly just that there is always a little liquid
going to get between any plug that is not covered or sealed. I swear
that cords tend to separate themselves too. I make them tight, but
there seems to always be a 1/32 inch gap later on. I tend to think
condensation expands them apart.

I would blame unequal thermal expansion (or contraction by cold) of
different materials when temperature changes. Plastics and rubbers tend
to change size more than metals or ground does when temperature changes.
Freezing and thawing of ground will also cause some little movement. Snow
shifts and sinks, and that will cause movement.
I see cords unplugging themselves partially (small fraction of an inch)
even when they stay dry indoors and nobody touches or moves them.

- Don Klipstein )

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:42:00 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

ransley wrote:

Get a clamp on amp meter that goes to 0,01 amp, not found a stores but
electric supply houses, a 35$ Greenlee is good. Clamp on each circut
on your panel to check consumption and compare it to what is plugged
in by their watt ratings, then check with everything off, then
unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.

What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much
loss to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of
leakage to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric
bill, Maybe a dime a month.

Heating at plugs is usually from partial breakage of the conductors due
to metal fatigue. One common cause is pulling on the cable rather than
the plug to unplug them. Also, pulling on cords to move them while they
are plugged to others, to the extent as to move the connected cords, may
cause this.

Plugs warming up can be a fire hazard. See if they warm up
significantly, or there is only negligible heating that may be a normal
amount from contact resistance. If plugs/sockets or wire within a couple
inches of the them gets noticeably warm, or warmer than the cable more
than a few inches from the ends, then it is good to cut off the ends (and
a few inches of cable) and replace the plugs/sockets. (Or replace the
whole cord.)

A few milliamps leakage from hot to ground and several milliamps more
from hot to neutral (which is closer than ground) can ammount to a good
watt - and I see that sometimes melting snow in a localized area over a
day. However, I think warm plugs/sockets are more likely to warm up from
extra resistance from contact resistance, cheap connection of wires to
plugs/sockets, or wires with some strands broken at the plugs/sockets due
to metal fatigue.

- Don Klipstein )

Thanks

There is likely a bit of heating on these plugs no matter what,
because these tank heaters are 1000W. (or 500W on the smaller tanks).
I am running 12 of them right now. I know my electric bill will panic
me this month, but the animals got to drink. I tend to use the
smaller 500W tanks as much as I can, but in the severe cold we are
having I use anything that wont freeze.

I'm not too worried about a fire starting in the middle of an icy
lawn in January.

On Jan 20, 6:43*pm, Red Green wrote:
Bruce Richmond wrote :

On Jan 19, 11:05*am, Red Green wrote:
Steve IA wrote

lid:

That you Dave?

Dave's not here, man. :-)

But if you actually are Bruce Richmond and you mean Dave Richmond,
everybody around the Junction knows Dave from somewhere.

Thought it might be a Dave Green I know in VT. Goes by the nickname
of Red. Thanks for the laugh below

Bruce

(Soft knocks at the door)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's me, Dave. *Open up, man, I got the stuff.
* (More knocks)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's me, Dave, man. *Open up, I got the stuff.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. *Open up, I think the cops saw me come in here.
* (More knocks)
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. *Will you open up, I got the stuff with me.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave, man. *Open up.
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave. *C'mon, man, open up, I think the cops saw me.
CHONG: Dave's not here.
CHEECH: No, man, I'm Dave, man.
* (Sharp knocks at the door)
CHEECH: Hey, c'mon, man.
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: It's Dave, man. *Will you open up? *I got the stuff with me.
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave, man. *Open up.
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave.
CHONG: Dave's not here.
CHEECH: What the hell? *No, man, I am Dave, man. *Will you...
* (More knocks)
CHEECH: C'mon! *Open up the door, will you? *I got the stuff with me, I
think the cops
saw me.
CHONG: Who is it?
CHEECH: Oh, what the hell is it...c'mon. *Open up the door! *It's Dave!
CHONG: Who?
CHEECH: Dave! *D-A-V-E! *Will you open up the goddam door!
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Yeah, Dave!
CHONG: Dave?
CHEECH: Right, man. *Dave. *Now will you open up the door?
CHONG: Dave's not here.

On Jan 20, 5:11*pm, CJT wrote:
hobbes wrote:
Hi,

Maybe the simplest answer is the best. The guy reading the meter made
a mistake and copied down one of the digits incorrectly. Hence your
high bill. I would simply cal up the power company, explain the
situation and ask them to re-read your meter. Also you can check your
meter reading with the one on your bill. Did the guy read it
correctly?

Best, Mike.

That conflicts with:

a) his read of the meter shortly after receiving the bill confirming the
reasonableness of the reading

If the previous reading was an estimate and the latest one an actual
reading, reading the meter after the latest reading would confirm that
it was correct but tell you nothing about the previous reading. If
that previous estimate was low it would show up as a higher usage
since then to get up to the real reading.

b) other households in the area experiencing the same thing

If his previous reading was an estimate it is likely that theirs were
as well. Nobody checked the previous readings because their bills had
not gone up.







On Jan 19, 10:40 am, Steve IA wrote:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. *December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. *Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. *So far this month of January, *we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. *I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. *I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. *They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. *I'm not buying it. *They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F. *
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. * No extra
Xmas lights, *no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. *I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. *I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

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The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
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- Show quoted text -

Bruce Richmond wrote:

On Jan 20, 5:11 pm, CJT wrote:

hobbes wrote:

Hi,

Maybe the simplest answer is the best. The guy reading the meter made
a mistake and copied down one of the digits incorrectly. Hence your
high bill. I would simply cal up the power company, explain the
situation and ask them to re-read your meter. Also you can check your
meter reading with the one on your bill. Did the guy read it
correctly?

Best, Mike.

That conflicts with:

a) his read of the meter shortly after receiving the bill confirming the
reasonableness of the reading


If the previous reading was an estimate and the latest one an actual
reading, reading the meter after the latest reading would confirm that
it was correct but tell you nothing about the previous reading. If
that previous estimate was low it would show up as a higher usage
since then to get up to the real reading.


I believe that possibility has already been rejected in an earlier
part of the thread.


b) other households in the area experiencing the same thing


If his previous reading was an estimate it is likely that theirs were
as well. Nobody checked the previous readings because their bills had
not gone up.


snip

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The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Tony Wesley said (on or about) 01/20/2008 15:07:
On Jan 20, 12:46 pm, Steve IA wrote:
Elmo wrote:

I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus)
which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity Reclamation
Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy Department). You
should file a claim with them.

I get strange looks when I say "We're all Bozos on this bus". Glad to
see I'm not alone.

Ah, Clem.

Fudd's Law of Opposition.


--
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:40:37 -0600, Steve IA
wrote:

Facts:

snip

no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .

If it's not a bad meter reading then that is the prime culprit, the
thermostat is stuck 'on'




--

ransley posted for all of us...

unplugged. You might find a direct short to ground.

Ok ransley the circuit overloads have overloaded your brain you putz.
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

Being coiled has nothing at all to do with getting hot, it is merely that
more heat is concentrated in that area. Heat comes from resistance, and at
60 Hz that is the ONLY factor.

.................................................. .................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. .................................................

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat.
Years ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block heater.
Where the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat translates to
energy use.

Voltage, current doesn't count then. I wonder how DC can heat up a
connection then.


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Being coiled has nothing at all to do with getting hot, it is merely
that more heat is concentrated in that area. Heat comes from
resistance, and at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor.

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of
heat. Years ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck
block heater. Where the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that
heat translates to energy use.

Uhm... maybe from resistance at the connection?

.................................................. .................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. .................................................

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
Voltage, current doesn't count then. I wonder how DC can heat up a
connection then.


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Being coiled has nothing at all to do with getting hot, it is merely that
more heat is concentrated in that area. Heat comes from resistance, and
at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor.

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat.
Years ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block
heater. Where the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat
translates to energy use.

Quote See attached below

"Heat comes from resistance, and at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor."


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Uhm... maybe from resistance at the connection?

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
Voltage, current doesn't count then. I wonder how DC can heat up a
connection then.


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Being coiled has nothing at all to do with getting hot, it is
merely that more heat is concentrated in that area. Heat comes
from resistance, and at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor.

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of
heat. Years ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck
block heater. Where the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and
that heat translates to energy use.

IF you can't read then that's OK too.

"bud--" wrote in message
...
Windsun said that coiled cord gets hot from resistance, not
electromagnetic effects. You don't understand what was said.

--
bud--


Solar Flare wrote:
Quote See attached below

"Heat comes from resistance, and at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor."


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Uhm... maybe from resistance at the connection?

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
Voltage, current doesn't count then. I wonder how DC can heat up
a connection then.


"Windsun" wrote in message
...
Being coiled has nothing at all to do with getting hot, it is
merely that more heat is concentrated in that area. Heat comes
from resistance, and at 60 Hz that is the ONLY factor.

.................................................. ................................................
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.................................................. ................................................

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of
heat. Years ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a
truck block heater. Where the cord was coiled, it go damned hot
and that heat translates to energy use.

Solar Flare wrote:

IF you can't read then that's OK too.

snip

Then there are some people who try to read everything literally,
ignoring the obvious, if imprecise, meaning in context.

--
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