I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

Personally I would replace them with 20amp outlets, good ones, not the
37¢ contractor specials. Use the screw clamp terminals not the stab
connects. I am really fuzzy about it, but as I recall it is OK to use the
15amp outlets, but I just would not do it so I am not really sure.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

In article ,
says...
tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

Yes, 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit is perfectly fine. You may
not put a *single* 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit.

Personally I would replace them with 20amp outlets, good ones, not the
37¢ contractor specials.

In the kitchen, maybe. I'd go for better outlets there, but I
don't think I'd bother with 20A outlets.

Use the screw clamp terminals not the stab connects.

I agree 100%. I *never* use the stabs. I do like the ones where
the screw clamps the wire though. Almost as quick as the stabs but
as secure as a wire properly fastened by the screw.


I am really fuzzy about it, but as I recall it is OK to use the
15amp outlets, but I just would not do it so I am not really sure.

It's fine. 15A outlets are rated for 20A feed through.

--
Keith

If these are counter top or anywhere near sink, they should be 20A GFI.
If for fridge or dishwasher, dedicated 20A. If you are redoing
kitchen, you probably want to look at adding circuits/ receptacles.
Think through what you want before you start, this is the time to
upgrade elec circuits if needed.

"tr" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

15a outlets are fine, unless there is just one outlet on the circuit; then
it has to be 20a.
Only reason to have a 20a outlet is to fit a 20a plug.

A DUPLEX outlet ( the standard type) is 2 outlets, not one, and thus a 15
amp duplex can actually be used alone on a 20 amp circuit, though in a
kitchen the more outlets the better so you might as well have more. When I
did my kitchen I used the 20 amp ones though to be honest I have never even
seen a 20 amp kitchen appliance, I just thought they 'might' be made a
little heavier duty than a 15 amp ones..probably wishful thinking but the
price difference wasn't much.

--

Mike S.

"Toller" wrote in message
...



15a outlets are fine, unless there is just one outlet on the circuit; then
it has to be 20a.
Only reason to have a 20a outlet is to fit a 20a plug.

FWIW: a couple of code books back, back stabbing of 12 gauge conductors
became illegal and outlet manufacturers reduced the size of the back stab
holes so only 14 gauge will fit


"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
news
tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

Personally I would replace them with 20amp outlets, good ones, not the
37¢ contractor specials. Use the screw clamp terminals not the stab
connects. I am really fuzzy about it, but as I recall it is OK to use the
15amp outlets, but I just would not do it so I am not really sure.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

All the 15A outlets at the big stores are actually rated to 20A but
only have 15A plugs. That is required by code, from what I understand.
Thus, you can use them on a 20A circuit. In fact, if you look at a
15A GFCI outlet, you'll see that they rate the secondary feed circuit
(the tabs for more outlets) at 20A.

Mikey S. states an interesting point about a duplex outlet being 2
devices. I wasn't sure how that works with code, so I just put in a
real 20A GFCI duplex outlet on the dedicated circuit in my new
bathroom. The uncertainty wasn't worth possibly failing an inspection.
Now it's the only place in the house where I could plug in my arc
welder!


-rev



tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

In article .com,
"Sev" wrote:

If for fridge or dishwasher, dedicated 20A.

For fridge and other essentials, I prefer to put an often used light on
the same circuit so I will be aware when the breaker trips before the
frozen food thaws.

--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/

The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets


"Nick Hull" wrote in message
.. .
In article .com,
"Sev" wrote:

If for fridge or dishwasher, dedicated 20A.

For fridge and other essentials, I prefer to put an often used light on
the same circuit so I will be aware when the breaker trips before the
frozen food thaws.

--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/

On 15 Nov 2006 12:48:36 -0800, "The Reverend Natural Light"
wrote:

All the 15A outlets at the big stores are actually rated to 20A but
only have 15A plugs. That is required by code, from what I understand.
Thus, you can use them on a 20A circuit. In fact, if you look at a
15A GFCI outlet, you'll see that they rate the secondary feed circuit
(the tabs for more outlets) at 20A.


I think they's call that a 20A GFCI.

Mikey S. states an interesting point about a duplex outlet being 2
devices. I wasn't sure how that works with code, so I just put in a
real 20A GFCI duplex outlet on the dedicated circuit in my new
bathroom. The uncertainty wasn't worth possibly failing an inspection.
Now it's the only place in the house where I could plug in my arc
welder!


-rev



tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR
--
40 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:48:55 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets


Isn't that just the countertop outlets?

I can't say exactly what you call them, but you can buy a GFCI with 15A
plugs that'll feed a 20A circuit or a GFCI with 20A plugs that'll also
feed a 20A circuit. They're both the same internally, of course, but
one has the different shaped plug and costs 3X as much.


-rev



Mark Lloyd wrote:

I think they's call that a 20A GFCI.

Quite right Rev, it's called a 20 amp feed through


"The Reverend Natural Light" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can't say exactly what you call them, but you can buy a GFCI with 15A
plugs that'll feed a 20A circuit or a GFCI with 20A plugs that'll also
feed a 20A circuit. They're both the same internally, of course, but
one has the different shaped plug and costs 3X as much.


-rev



Mark Lloyd wrote:

I think they's call that a 20A GFCI.

No, it's any outlet connected to the two or more required small appliance
branch circuits.


"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:48:55 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets


Isn't that just the countertop outlets?

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Here's all I could find . from the 2000 IRC

E3603.2 Kitchen and dining area receptacles.A minimum of

two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits shall be provided to serve

receptacles located in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast area and

dining area. The kitchen countertop receptacles shall be served

by a minimum of two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits, either

or both of which shall also be permitted to supply other receptacle

outlets in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast area and dining area.


--
Steve Barker
Paola, KS
BNSF (BN) Fort Scott Sub MP 50
Nikon CP 995
www.barkerranch.net



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?

I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet, and
neither does the Code.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

RBM wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets


"Nick Hull" wrote in message
.. .
In article .com,
"Sev" wrote:

If for fridge or dishwasher, dedicated 20A.
For fridge and other essentials, I prefer to put an often used light on
the same circuit so I will be aware when the breaker trips before the
frozen food thaws.

--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/



The code only prohibits having lighting outlets on the counter top
receptacle circuits and although it permits the refrigerator to be
supplied from such a circuit it does not require that. So a receptacle
placed behind a refrigerator so as to be inaccessible for counter top
use could be supplied from a lighting circuit.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 00:59:50 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.


PMFJI, but please see 2005 NEC 210.23(A)

--
Seth Goodman

The code only prohibits having lighting outlets on the counter top
receptacle circuits and although it permits the refrigerator to be
supplied from such a circuit it does not require that. So a receptacle
placed behind a refrigerator so as to be inaccessible for counter top
use could be supplied from a lighting circuit.
--


Right... The refrigerator outlet in most dwellings is on a different
circuit than the 2 required 20A countertop appliance outlets. These
outlets are suppose to be for coffee pots, microwave ovens, broillers,
blenders, can openers, etc. Two of them are needed because most of
these kitchen appliances consume lots of power.

Also note that the fridge outlet is one of the few exceptions that
should not be on a GFCI outlet, lest it nuisance trip while you are
out of town and spoil your food. The NEC recognizes this, even though
the prevailing sentiment will be to require GFCI's on just about all
outlet circuits in future codes.

Beachcomber

In article , Seth Goodman wrote:
In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 00:59:50 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.


PMFJI, but please see 2005 NEC 210.23(A)

Quote:

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2). Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C) (1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

Right... but since Code requires two small appliance circuits in a kitchen, a
*third* outlet circuit could supply virtually any other loads as well, because
that third circuit is not a "small appliance branch circuit ... required ...
by 210.11(C) ..." and thus not subject to that restriction.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Correct, the two OR MORE small appliance circuits can't serve any other
outlets except the "receptacle outlets" listed and you can add other outlets
in these areas that are not part of the requirement. My reply was to a guy
that wanted to add a lighting outlet to the SAME circuit as a small
appliance receptacle is on


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , Seth
Goodman wrote:
In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 00:59:50 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.


PMFJI, but please see 2005 NEC 210.23(A)

Quote:

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2). Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C) (1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

Right... but since Code requires two small appliance circuits in a
kitchen, a
*third* outlet circuit could supply virtually any other loads as well,
because
that third circuit is not a "small appliance branch circuit ... required
...
by 210.11(C) ..." and thus not subject to that restriction.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet, and
neither does the Code

I think if that were the case, they wouldn't use specific terms like
"receptacle outlets" and "outlets"

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?

I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet,
and
neither does the Code.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 11:33:21 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Seth Goodman wrote:
In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 00:59:50 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.


PMFJI, but please see 2005 NEC 210.23(A)

Quote:

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2). Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C) (1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

Right... but since Code requires two small appliance circuits in a kitchen, a
*third* outlet circuit could supply virtually any other loads as well, because
that third circuit is not a "small appliance branch circuit ... required ...
by 210.11(C) ..." and thus not subject to that restriction.

The code doesn't require *exactly* two. It requires at *least* two.

See 210.52(B)(3) "Kitchen Receptacle Requirements", which says "not
fewer than two small appliance branch circuits". Other sections use the
term "at least two". You can have as many as you want = 2, but if they
supply kitchen outlets, they are still small appliance branch circuits,
and must obey code. There are some exceptions, but none that would allow
supplying a light fixture on the same circuit as a refrigerator. As RBM
suggested earlier, there's nothing to prevent one from plugging in a
light (such as a night light) on the same circuit as the refrigerator
(unless it's a dedicated refrigerator circuit).

If you still disagree, please provide Code cites. If you don't own a
copy of the NEC, you can read it on-line at:
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB

You'll need to allow Java and pop-ups.

--
Seth Goodman

In article , Seth Goodman wrote:

The code doesn't require *exactly* two. It requires at *least* two.

See 210.52(B)(3) "Kitchen Receptacle Requirements", which says "not
fewer than two small appliance branch circuits". Other sections use the
term "at least two". You can have as many as you want = 2, but if they
supply kitchen outlets, they are still small appliance branch circuits,
and must obey code. There are some exceptions, but none that would allow
supplying a light fixture on the same circuit as a refrigerator. As RBM
suggested earlier, there's nothing to prevent one from plugging in a
light (such as a night light) on the same circuit as the refrigerator
(unless it's a dedicated refrigerator circuit).

I stand corrected.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 04:00:05 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?

I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet, and
neither does the Code.



It does in the 1999 codebook. "Outlet" is a term of the art
that means "thing that uses electricity". The term for
what you plug a cord into is "receptacle". Most of the time
it's a distiction without a difference.

See 210.52(B)(3) "Kitchen Receptacle Requirements", which says "not
fewer than two small appliance branch circuits". Other sections use the
term "at least two". You can have as many as you want = 2, but if they
supply kitchen outlets, they are still small appliance branch circuits,
and must obey code. There are some exceptions, but none that would allow
supplying a light fixture on the same circuit as a refrigerator. As RBM
suggested earlier, there's nothing to prevent one from plugging in a
light (such as a night light) on the same circuit as the refrigerator
(unless it's a dedicated refrigerator circuit).


Just for clarification, you're asserting that any receptacle
that is in a kitchen, reguardless of where in the kitchen it is,
is therefore a small-appliance branch circut? (and thus
must be 20 Amps, GFCI protected, and not connected to anything
else?) (and excepting individual receptacles dedicated to single
fixed devices, like a freezer, refer, or stove?)

--Goedjn

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets
I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet,
and
neither does the Code.

RBM wrote:
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an
outlet, and neither does the Code

I think if that were the case, they wouldn't use specific terms like
"receptacle outlets" and "outlets"



"Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a
lamp-holder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord
terminating in a lamp-holder.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply
utilization equipment.
["An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet." Handbook
Commentary]

Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit
breakers, fuse-holders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter
mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means
for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily
installed equipment.

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are
installed." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association

The quoted material above is from the National Electric Code. Would you
mind sharing which code you were referring to.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

In article , on Thu, 16 Nov
2006 11:04:31 -0500, Goedjn wrote:


Just for clarification, you're asserting that any receptacle
that is in a kitchen, reguardless of where in the kitchen it is,
is therefore a small-appliance branch circut? (and thus
must be 20 Amps, GFCI protected, and not connected to anything
else?) (and excepting individual receptacles dedicated to single
fixed devices, like a freezer, refer, or stove?)

Sounds like a trick question - all I was asserting was that you can't
put a lighting fixture on the same circuit as a refrigerator.

Your generalization may be true, but I'll leave the proof as an exercise
for the reader. ;-)


--
Seth Goodman

In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote:


Personally I would replace them with 20amp outlets, good ones, not the
37¢ contractor specials. Use the screw clamp terminals not the stab
connects. I am really fuzzy about it, but as I recall it is OK to use the
15amp outlets, but I just would not do it so I am not really sure.

I¹ve seen, and have, the 20 amp outlets that are meant to accommodate a
20 amp plug. But, I have never seen or known of any appliance, perhaps
with the exception of an air conditioner, that uses this plug. So why
are these outlets needed in the kitchen?

--
Larry Weil
Lake Wobegone, NH

Joseph Meehan wrote:

tr wrote:
I am redoing my kitchen. All of the duplex outlets are on two 20 amp
12 awg wire breakers. However...all of the old outlets are rated for
15 amp circuits ? I have come across this in kitchens many times
before.

Can you use duplexes rated for 15 amps in the kitchen with 20 amp
breakers...fed by 12 awg wires ? Is this a common practice and OK via
NEC...or should you use the 20 amp duplexes with the horizontal little
plug fitting on the receptacles ?

Thanks, TR

Personally I would replace them with 20amp outlets, good ones, not the
37¢ contractor specials. Use the screw clamp terminals not the stab
connects. I am really fuzzy about it, but as I recall it is OK to use the
15amp outlets, but I just would not do it so I am not really sure.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

A 20A circuits feeding the kitchen, yes, spending the extra $ for 20A
outlets to put on that circuit when you will *never* find a kitchen
appliance in any consumer store that actually has a 20A plug, no.

I used 20A GFCIs and 20A spec grade outlets in my shop where they may
actually see 20A plugs from time to time, but everything in the house is
15A GFCI where needed (they are rated 20A feed through) and 15A outlets
where GFCIs are not needed. Everything is on 20A circuits though, not a
single 15A circuit anywhere in the house and no 14ga wire anywhere
either, not even lighting circuits.

Pete C.

When the code states that the small appliance circuits can't be shared with
other "outlets", by the very definition, that you point out, if you read the
commentary, "outlet" includes all types of outlets



"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote in message
k.net...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets
I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet,
and
neither does the Code.

RBM wrote:
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an
outlet, and neither does the Code

I think if that were the case, they wouldn't use specific terms like
"receptacle outlets" and "outlets"



"Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a
lamp-holder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating
in a lamp-holder.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply
utilization equipment.
["An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet." Handbook
Commentary]

Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit
breakers, fuse-holders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter
mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for
distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed
equipment.

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed."
Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association

The quoted material above is from the National Electric Code. Would you
mind sharing which code you were referring to.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

And the code still doesn't allow you to share the required small appliance
circuits with "other outlets"


"Seth Goodman" wrote in message
.net...
In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 11:33:21 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Seth
Goodman wrote:
In article , on Thu, 16
Nov 2006 00:59:50 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets

I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.


PMFJI, but please see 2005 NEC 210.23(A)

Quote:

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2). Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C) (1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

Right... but since Code requires two small appliance circuits in a
kitchen, a
*third* outlet circuit could supply virtually any other loads as well,
because
that third circuit is not a "small appliance branch circuit ... required
...
by 210.11(C) ..." and thus not subject to that restriction.

The code doesn't require *exactly* two. It requires at *least* two.

See 210.52(B)(3) "Kitchen Receptacle Requirements", which says "not
fewer than two small appliance branch circuits". Other sections use the
term "at least two". You can have as many as you want = 2, but if they
supply kitchen outlets, they are still small appliance branch circuits,
and must obey code. There are some exceptions, but none that would allow
supplying a light fixture on the same circuit as a refrigerator. As RBM
suggested earlier, there's nothing to prevent one from plugging in a
light (such as a night light) on the same circuit as the refrigerator
(unless it's a dedicated refrigerator circuit).

If you still disagree, please provide Code cites. If you don't own a
copy of the NEC, you can read it on-line at:
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB

You'll need to allow Java and pop-ups.

--
Seth Goodman

RBM wrote:
When the code states that the small appliance circuits can't be shared with
other "outlets", by the very definition, that you point out, if you read the
commentary, "outlet" includes all types of outlets



"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote in message
k.net...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits, other
than
ones plugged into the outlets
I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an outlet,
and
neither does the Code.
RBM wrote:
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an
outlet, and neither does the Code

I think if that were the case, they wouldn't use specific terms like
"receptacle outlets" and "outlets"


"Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a
lamp-holder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating
in a lamp-holder.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply
utilization equipment.
["An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet." Handbook
Commentary]

Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit
breakers, fuse-holders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter
mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for
distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed
equipment.

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed."
Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association

The quoted material above is from the National Electric Code. Would you
mind sharing which code you were referring to.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison



Why do you assume that I'm arguing with you. Did I hit respond to the
wrong posting?
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

The quoted material above is from the National Electric Code. Would you
mind sharing which code you were referring to.
--
Tom Horne

I could be mistaken, but that sounds like an argument to me


"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote in message
ink.net...
RBM wrote:
When the code states that the small appliance circuits can't be shared
with other "outlets", by the very definition, that you point out, if you
read the commentary, "outlet" includes all types of outlets



"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote in message
k.net...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
The NEC prohibits installing lights on kitchen outlet circuits,
other than
ones plugged into the outlets
I don't think that's correct -- do you have a Code cite for it? I
see
where
the Code prohibits other *outlets* on those circuits (e.g. in other
rooms),
but I don't see a prohibition against lighting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
You don't consider lighting outlets as "other outlets"?
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an
outlet,
and
neither does the Code.
RBM wrote:
I don't consider a light *fixture* (e.g. a ceiling light) as an
outlet, and neither does the Code

I think if that were the case, they wouldn't use specific terms like
"receptacle outlets" and "outlets"


"Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a
lamp-holder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord
terminating in a lamp-holder.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply
utilization equipment.
["An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet." Handbook
Commentary]

Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit
breakers, fuse-holders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter
mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means
for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily
installed equipment.

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are
installed." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association

The quoted material above is from the National Electric Code. Would you
mind sharing which code you were referring to.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison



Why do you assume that I'm arguing with you. Did I hit respond to the
wrong posting?
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison