Brian Berg wrote the following on 2/28/2013 1:24 AM (ET):
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:01:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

You can have mutant oil eating bacteria today:
I hadn't realized they were that advanced!

Who?


--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:14:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:41:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Also, an important clue is that I can have a drawer full of plastic
handle hex spintite wrenches, and only some of them will have a "mold"
problem. This implies that the culprit is resident mostly in the
plastic and not the environment.

Maybe a photo will help:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/plastic-rot.jpg
This is a drawer from my steel Craftsman toolbox that I don't use very
often. The white stuff is the alleged "mold". Note that it's on two
of the handles, but not the others.

Yes, the yellow one has the most. I t hink my yellow ones are most
likely to have this and when they do, they have the most. The one
screwdriver that reminded me of this has a yellow plastic handle.
(The other two things t hat reminded me a couple days ago where jumper
wires with banana plugs, blue and green, but that's soft vinyl and not
hard plastic. ......))


The larger tools are made by
Vaco. The blue and the yellow handles are covered with the stuff.
However, the other handles, from the same manufacturer, are pitted,
but untouched. That's because they previously were cleaned and coated
with a very thin layer of Krylon clear acrylic. I'm not sure why the
blue and yellow handles are affected.

Maybe because one is yellow? I just based a whole paragraph on that!

probably just forgot to coat
them (about 18 months ago). There is no rust anywhere inside the
toolbox on any of the other tools, so it's not moisture accumulation
or consensation.

On 27 Feb 2013 20:49:53 GMT, Brian Berg wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:14:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Maybe a photo will help:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/plastic-rot.jpg

That's EXACTLY what this screwdriver USED to look like!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12297573.jpg

So, whatever it is, it's common.

Yes, I'm glad to learn about that. I thought I was so alone (boohoo).

Again, I don't know if it is a mold or a chemical.
It does NOT happen to all tools of the same type.

It just happens to select tools which were stored in a
different environment (I think my affected screwdrivers
were used when I worked at a hospital on oxygen respirators).

In my case, I'll have 20 tools in a drawer, or 15 little tools in an
inbox, and only a few get "moldy". I have to take some time later
today to see how many are yellow.

In addition, the box of knobs is two boxes actually, in the same
drawer of an old dresser. Theyr'e almost all brown or black, and
I'll have to check if the moldy ones are all on top, or the bottom or
something, but I don't recall that being the case. And only some get
moldy.

The tooks and knobs have all spent 100% of their time in the previous
year or years in the same room in my basement.

IOW, the environments are the same

On 27 Feb 2013 20:56:29 GMT, Brian Berg wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:40:54 -0800, wrote:

Your explanation makes more semse than "mold". The OP did not say
what type of handles or tools were/were not affected, or if the tools
were in a dark airless corner or out in plain sight, etc, so we really
need more information.

Wow. The real Jeff Liebermann (two n's and i-before-e) on alt.home.repair.

That's only because I crossposted to alt.home.repair and
sci.electronics.repair. If you want more of him, you have to go
to the second ng.

I've long wished there was an easy way to tell which ng someone is
posting from. I once put in my .sig, "probably posting from nnnnn",
"probably" because I also read the other group directly sometimes, but
it disappeared with a liater installation of Agent.

I'm impressed. You're the expert in the SC mountains for wireless radio.

Wow, I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't crossposted.

Glad to have you here.

I am VERY FAMILIAR with this persistent "white stuff".
I have no idea WHAT it is - but I have it too.

It's either a chemical coating or it's a mold-like growth.
It does seem to be hugely persistent, in that if you don't scrape it
away, it will last (seemingly unchanged) forever.

Interestingly, I don't have to scrape mine off. I can brush it off
with my finger, or a paper towel iirc. Of course that doesn't apply
when it's in a crevice or crack.

I remember segregating my white-coated tools a while ago, but I no
longer do that once I manually scraped them (mostly) clean.

I seem to remember that the white stuff "infected" other tools, but,
it's no longer doing that (after twenty years). But, that white stuff
you see in this photo is easily twenty years old!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12297573.jpg

It had coated that screwdriver handle with a white persistent but
powdery on the outside surface coating just like the picture the OP
posted over he
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/plastic-rot.jpg

I considered throwing the screwdrivers away, but, my sense of
tool preservation had me soak that screwdriver maybe 15 years ago
in all sorts of horrid solvents (acetone, bleach, acid, etc.) in
my attempts to clean it off.

If anyone actually KNOWS what this white stuff is, I'd be curious!

willshak wrote:

Brian Berg wrote the following on 2/28/2013 1:24 AM (ET):
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:01:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

You can have mutant oil eating bacteria today:
I hadn't realized they were that advanced!

Who?


"Mutant oil eating bacteria" was one of those flash in the pan '80s
rock bands.

On 28 Feb 2013 06:24:01 GMT, Brian Berg wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:01:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

You can have mutant oil eating bacteria today:

I hadn't realized they were that advanced!

Yep. So far, 27 different varieties of bacteria and fungus have added
diesel fuel to their menu:
http://www.oillab.co.nz/diesel_bug_explained
https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+bacteria&tbm=isch
When I drove a diesel pickup truck, I would occasionally add a biocide
to the tank. Over time, the bugs are developing immunities to the
common bug killers. Left to expand uncontrollably, this could be the
end of civilization as we know it.

Meanwhile, researchers are working on a way to break down all the
plastic bottles, containers, packaging, and junk that our civilization
is so good at producing. At the present rate, we'll be swimming in
plastic garbage unless something is done to accelerate decomposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
One of the methods proposed is to breed and release plastic eating
bacteria in the landfills.
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/blogs/boy-discovers-microbe-that-eats-plastic
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110328/full/news.2011.191.html
etc. Eventually some bug will be found that eats plastic. It will
leak out of the landfills, infest out homes, destroy everything made
from plastic, and rewind civilization before the discovery of
petroleum (steam punk?), which might not be such a bad thing.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:26:49 -0500, micky wrote:

Maybe because one is yellow?

Mine are on craftsman tools, which are not yellow.

"Brian Berg" wrote in message
e...
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:26:49 -0500, micky wrote:

Maybe because one is yellow?

Mine are on craftsman tools, which are not yellow.

I have an Xcelite nutdriver that is red and a Craftsman screwdriver that is
clear with red stripes on it. Both of them have a white dust like material
on them. This is the same stuff that has been called 'mold'. It is not
mold, the plastic going bad.

On 28 Feb 2013 02:39:32 GMT, Sjouke Burry s@b wrote:

micky wrote in
:

My shop is in my basement, which has always seemed to be a very dry
floor. However, about 4% of my cords, my spare radio and tv knobs,
and the handles of my tools get a think layer of some sort of mold on
them. It's like a grey dust. (Or some other light color, I forget.)

I wasg them in the dishwasher and they come out clean, but once in the
basement again, after a few months, U notice that the same ones have
mold. And the rest never get mold.

I suppose I could just ignore this, since it doesn't spread, but I
wonder if any of you have ideas. No other part of my house is neat
or clean, but the shop is the most important place, and I'd like it to
be clean.

Thanks.


Dont touch the utils with greasy fingers.
That feeds the mould.

And it left holes in m fingers too. LOL.

On 28 Feb 2013 03:00:47 GMT, Brian Berg wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:18:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I assure you that it's plastic, not spores.

Well, you're famous for having the right answer in the electrical
realm, so, I would have to give you the benefit of the doubt in
the mechanical.

It doesn't grow. Therefore, it's not mold.

True. It just sort of sits there. Minding its own business.

Grumble. That's my picture and I'm NOT the OP.

Ooops. Sorry about that. Your picture, as always, was perfectly apropos!
Too bad the OP didn't have the skills you have for Internet nntp work.

Huh? Because I chose not to post a picture, I don't have the news
skills Jeff has? That's no wayi to draw conclusions.

You should learn to praise someone without having to run down someone
else.



Come to think of it, VERY FEW people have your skills. You've helped
me quite a few times (under various nyms) on the wireless side, what
with that lousy set of WISPS in the SC mountains (yea, Brett, you know
him as I do. He's nice enough - but he's too busy and harried to give
you the technical time of day, and Dave, well, I'm glad I dropped
them).

The only things that actually directly attacked the white stuff were
mild plastic solvents. However, anything that dissolved the white
stuff, also attacked the plastic handle, so that's not a good fix.

I seem to remember I soaked mine in a variety of nasty solvents,
none of which worked - and then - about 10 years ago (or so, as I
don't really remember), I just scraped them clean. Have been that
way ever since.

Send it to a pathology lab and see what they say.
I wish I had the following 'scopes ...
a) microscope
b) oscilloscope
c) telescope

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:29:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:21:50 -0500, micky
wrote:

However, about 4% of my cords, my spare radio and tv knobs,
and the handles of my tools get a think layer of some sort of mold on
them. It's like a grey dust. (Or some other light color, I forget.)

It's not mold. It appears to be mold, but if you look carefully, it
doesn't "grow" in a radial pattern, as you would expect real mold to
grow. I've put the dust under a microscope to be sure. It's plastic
dust. Hit is with some heat, and watch it melt. I get this plastic
"mold" on most of my cheap plastic handle tools. The plastic breaks
down along the surface and sorta crumbles. It's probably caused by
exposure to something in the air, which condenses onto the surface
when wet. Washing the stuff off with any kind of kitchen cleaner
works, for a while.
(...)

The white rot is plastic, not mold. So it is written, so it must be.

I scraped some of the white stuff from the plastic handle and put it
under a x100 microscope.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/white-plastic-rot/
Not the best photos but I'll try again after yet another Friday night
customer crisis. The photos show absolutely no structure, self
simularity, or colonies characteristic of mold.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=mold
I also heated some of the white stuff on a microscope slide. It
melted like plastic (burning my fingers in the process). The white
stuff also disolved nicely in acetone.

Drivel: Besides the Mercedes fuel pump, todays repairs were a
Bernzomatic trigger start propane torch (cold flow PTFE igniter wire),
an iPhone 4 with a non-functional standby push button (I gave up), yet
another HP LaserJet 4250 printer with sticky relays (replace felt
pad), and helped mount the landlords bicycle rack on his SUV.
Sometimes, I wonder what business I'm in.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:47:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


The white rot is plastic, not mold. So it is written, so it must be.

I scraped some of the white stuff from the plastic handle and put it
under a x100 microscope.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/white-plastic-rot/
Not the best photos but I'll try again after yet another Friday night
customer crisis. The photos show absolutely no structure, self
simularity, or colonies characteristic of mold.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=mold

The nutdriver is yellow!!

I also heated some of the white stuff on a microscope slide. It
melted like plastic (burning my fingers in the process). The white
stuff also disolved nicely in acetone.

And so I gather will the nut driver handle.

Drivel: Besides the Mercedes fuel pump, todays repairs were a
Bernzomatic trigger start propane torch (cold flow PTFE igniter wire),
an iPhone 4 with a non-functional standby push button (I gave up), yet
another HP LaserJet 4250 printer with sticky relays (replace felt
pad), and helped mount the landlords bicycle rack on his SUV.
Sometimes, I wonder what business I'm in.

Yes, you certainly deal with a wide range of stuff. What business ARE
you in? :-)

-
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

For a while my home phone was broken and my cell phone was lost (in
the house) and I was using Skype to call out.

I didn't sign up for a Skype phone number yet, however. If someone
calls when I'm not there, can the caller leave a message, or at least
his phone number??

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 23:52:35 -0500, micky
wrote:

The nutdriver is yellow!!

Is this a problem? In my drawer of rarely used nut drivers, blue is
also affected.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/plastic-rot.jpg

Yes, you certainly deal with a wide range of stuff. What business ARE
you in? :-)

That's a tough question to answer. Basically, I separate my customers
from their money by providing a wide variety of services. It usually
involves some form of electronics, but also includes oddities such as
sewing machine repair.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Kenmore-sewing-machine.jpg
It is not unusual for me to repair appliances after fixing their
computers. As one business wanes (I was once in the calculator repair
biz), I expand into adjacent businesses. I find it helpful, but not
necessary, to know what I'm doing.

For a while my home phone was broken and my cell phone was lost (in
the house) and I was using Skype to call out.

Many cellular vendors allow you to activate a new phone, on an
existing number, via their web page, or via the phone. For example,
with Verizon, you dial *228. Buy a spare qualifying Verizon phone on
eBay for a few dollars and throw the spare where you can find it (i.e.
your vehicle). When you lose your phone, just activate the spare
until you find it. Also, make sure that the spare phone you purchase
is "clean".
http://checkesnfree.com

I didn't sign up for a Skype phone number yet, however. If someone
calls when I'm not there, can the caller leave a message, or at least
his phone number??

No. Incoming calls from the PSTN cannot be received without a Skype
account that includes an incoming phone number. Without a phone
number, there's no way for anyone to dial your computer from a POTS
phone. What I've done is purchase a minimal account for a few
dollars, and use it only for emergencies. I've had about $15 on my
account for several years, with no monthly charges.

Similarly, Skype also charges for voicemail storage. However, if the
incoming caller uses Skype to originate the call, the PSTN is not
involved and your Skype client will show that you've received a call
from some person. The catch is that if you allow anyone to call your
Skype account, you open the flood gates to getting spammed and
solicited at your account. I have mine set to only allow calls from
people in my Skype address book.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder what business I'm in.

That's pretty obvious to those that follow you here.

About three years ago you retired, but like a character in an M. Knight
Shamalan movie, you refuse to notice.

:-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
It's Spring here in Jerusalem!!!

On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 17:04:03 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder what business I'm in.

That's pretty obvious to those that follow you here.

Well, the standard answer is that I'm in business to do business. When
about 30% of my gross income is tangled up with taxes and 50% in
overhead, the business end of the repair biz is far more important
than the individual repair jobs.

Many years ago, when I was still pretending to listen to advice, I was
warned against over specialization. 40+ years later, I've noticed
that my classmates, that entered into overly specialized areas, have
either priced themselves out of the market, have had their specialty
simply disappear, or have been outsourced into oblivion. I'm not
suggesting that one should try to learn anything and everything, just
not to become overly dependent on one particular skill. Were I still
an RF engineer, designing various radios, I would either be
simultaneously doing 3 peoples jobs for a tolerable pay, or standing
in the unemployment line awaiting my government entitlement.

About three years ago you retired, but like a character in an M. Knight
Shamalan movie, you refuse to notice.

Not quite. I retired in 1983, but didn't know it. I had just been
laid off from an engineering position and decided that engineering
management and my abrasive personality were mutually exclusive. Since
then, I've experimented with numerous businesses and professions, with
the usual wide variations in success. Unfortunately, I'm getting
sufficient old and tired that such changes and product ideas are not
going to work well in the future.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/2/2013 2:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 17:04:03 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder what business I'm in.

That's pretty obvious to those that follow you here.

Well, the standard answer is that I'm in business to do business. When
about 30% of my gross income is tangled up with taxes and 50% in
overhead, the business end of the repair biz is far more important
than the individual repair jobs.

Many years ago, when I was still pretending to listen to advice, I was
warned against over specialization. 40+ years later, I've noticed
that my classmates, that entered into overly specialized areas, have
either priced themselves out of the market, have had their specialty
simply disappear, or have been outsourced into oblivion. I'm not
suggesting that one should try to learn anything and everything, just
not to become overly dependent on one particular skill. Were I still
an RF engineer, designing various radios, I would either be
simultaneously doing 3 peoples jobs for a tolerable pay, or standing
in the unemployment line awaiting my government entitlement.

About three years ago you retired, but like a character in an M. Knight
Shamalan movie, you refuse to notice.

Not quite. I retired in 1983, but didn't know it. I had just been
laid off from an engineering position and decided that engineering
management and my abrasive personality were mutually exclusive. Since
then, I've experimented with numerous businesses and professions, with
the usual wide variations in success. Unfortunately, I'm getting
sufficient old and tired that such changes and product ideas are not
going to work well in the future.


There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
independent contracting. ^_^

TDD

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 19:03:47 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 3/2/2013 2:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Not quite. I retired in 1983, but didn't know it. I had just been
laid off from an engineering position and decided that engineering
management and my abrasive personality were mutually exclusive. Since
then, I've experimented with numerous businesses and professions, with
the usual wide variations in success. Unfortunately, I'm getting
sufficient old and tired that such changes and product ideas are not
going to work well in the future.

There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
independent contracting. ^_^
TDD

Sorry, but I was somewhat ambiguous. My phrase "that engineering
management and my abrasive personality were mutually exclusive" refers
to me, not corporate management. At the time, I had been functioning
simultaneously as both an engineer and a manager. I soon realized
that I had to choose one or the other. Since my personality tends to
**** off everyone within range, I chose engineer, where prickly
personalities are common. In effect, I refused promotion, which was
at the time considered a capital crime. When the economy took a dive,
and the first round of layoffs occurred, I was one of the first to be
laid off.

I did the independent contractor, consultant, and hired gun thing for
a while, but didn't like all the travel that was required. I also
seemed to find situations and products that were beyond redemption or
salvage. In several cases, I was setup for a failure, and then
dutifully blamed when I failed. I had made a pile of money on stock
options and speculation, so I was able to loaf while I decided what to
do next.

I floundered around between 1983 and mid 1986, continuing to do
consulting but also building up the repair biz. I was about to setup
a local consultants exchange, when my father settled the issue by
having a severe stroke. I found myself running his lingerie
manufacturing business for several years until it could be sold and
commuting back and forth between Santa Cruz and Smog Angeles
approximately twice per month. I don't want to get into details here.
Incidentally, I am still on good terms with all of my former
employers. I had plenty of disagreements with them, but none of them
were ever allowed to become personal. It was quite common to engage
in heated technical arguments with them, followed by a calm lunch
discussion over politics, sports, or other non-work related interests.
After lunch, the arguments would resume.

I find it odd that you would pass judgment on your employers. It's
not nice to bite the hand that feeds you. I have worked for crooks,
liars, politicians, and marginal incompetents. I have been on good
relations with all of them. If you cannot get along with even your
worst enemy for the achievement of a common goal, you're doing
something wrong. Even the worst employer can be trained.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The Daring Dufas wrote:

There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
independent contracting. ^_^


You were only six when you did that. ;-)

On 3/2/2013 10:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
independent contracting. ^_^


You were only six when you did that. ;-)


That's when I was remanded to the Catholic Parochial Gulag back in the
50's and introduced to Sister Godzilla. Child care was based on sheer
terror back then. That's why I don't like folks who mistreat kids. When
I was six, I decided all adults were full of crap, the mistake I made
was letting the nuns know it. O_o

TDD

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 19:03:47 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant
of being in the employ of actinic sphincters...

Was "actinic" the word you wanted? If you meant "flaming"... It's not really a
synonym.


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

Since my personality tends to **** off everyone within range...

That's odd, because your postings are almost always good-humored.


I find it odd that you would pass judgment on your employers. It's
not nice to bite the hand that feeds you. I have worked for crooks,
liars, politicians, and marginal incompetents. I have been on good
relations with all of them. If you cannot get along with even your
worst enemy for the achievement of a common goal, you're doing
something wrong. Even the worst employer can be trained.

Your point is well-taken, but there are certain people one would not like to
work to, simply because we dislike them as human beings. I'm thinking
particularly of a certain person on "Gold Rush".

On 3/3/2013 7:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 19:03:47 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant
of being in the employ of actinic sphincters...

Was "actinic" the word you wanted? If you meant "flaming"... It's not
really a synonym.


I meant it to be a play on words since "actinic" is closer to "glowing"
than "flaming". Many unpleasant people are anything but brilliant and
full of light. ^_^

It appears you were responding to me and JL at the same time.

TDD

Jeff Liebermann wrote on Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:47:40 -0800:

I also heated some of the white stuff on a microscope slide. It melted
like plastic (burning my fingers in the process). The white stuff also
disolved nicely in acetone.

Hi Jeff,

Those were fantastic pictures. I always assumed it was mold, but, now,
I must rethink 'what' it is.

I don't remember trying acetone, but, my screwdrivers still have a
hint of the white stuff from years past, so I will try that to see.

Thank you very much for the wonderful experimental work. You're in
the top 1% of all people who THINK on this planet!

On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Al Schmidt
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote on Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:47:40 -0800:

I also heated some of the white stuff on a microscope slide. It melted
like plastic (burning my fingers in the process). The white stuff also
disolved nicely in acetone.

Those were fantastic pictures.

The microscope photos were awful, grainy, and somewhat otto focus but
sufficient to make a few observations:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/white-plastic-rot/
I left the microscope setup in my office and will try to take some
better pictures with better objective lenses and better lighting on
Monday night. Bottom lighting didn't work because the "plastic rot"
was too thick. It also wrecked the focus as my depth of field is very
limited at x100 and x400. Maybe lower power will help.

Ever wonder who makes the tool handles?
http://www.alhandles.com
Nothing on their site about the problem, or even what type of plastics
are used.

Typical acrylic extruded rods:
http://www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/plastic_rods_tubes_shapes/colored_acrylic_rod/148

I always assumed it was mold, but, now,
I must rethink 'what' it is.

It's not mold. It looks, acts, burns, melts, and disolves like
acrylic plastic. It's translucent, not white. It doesn't grow, has
no structure, doesn't creat colonies, and doesn't produce spores.

I don't remember trying acetone, but, my screwdrivers still have a
hint of the white stuff from years past, so I will try that to see.

Hold it. Don't try using acetone to clean your screwdriver. It will
attack and make a sticky mess of the good parts of the screwdriver
handle. Acetone will dissolve acrylic plastic which is what I guess
the handles are made from. Consult a chemical compatibilty chart for
plastics before using any solvents.
http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/acrylite_chem_resist.pdf
For cleaning, use anything that will scrape the stuff off, such as a
knife blade, scouring pad, or sandpaper. Use a buffing wheel to
retore the shine.

Thank you very much for the wonderful experimental work. You're in
the top 1% of all people who THINK on this planet!

Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 3/2/2013 10:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
?
? The Daring Dufas wrote:
??
?? There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
?? being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
?? prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
?? hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
?? risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
?? independent contracting. ^_^
?
?
? You were only six when you did that. ;-)
?

That's when I was remanded to the Catholic Parochial Gulag back in the
50's and introduced to Sister Godzilla. Child care was based on sheer
terror back then. That's why I don't like folks who mistreat kids. When
I was six, I decided all adults were full of crap, the mistake I made
was letting the nuns know it. O_o


Your next mistake was growing up. ;-)

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

Or in other words, another failure of the proper application of
Occam's Razor. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is that
it is mold.

The failure is that accepting the simplest explanation "it is mold"
limits the search for "all things" and some important facts are missed.

I see this all too often in computers, where people without a clue, fix
a broken system by replacing parts randomly.

If there are 5 componens in a system, replacing any one of them has a chance
of fixing the system, possibly as much as 20% and then declaring themselves
"experts".
:-)

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
It's Spring here in Jerusalem!!!

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
? Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
? version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
? "observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
? the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

Or in other words, another failure of the proper application of
Occam's Razor. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is that
it is mold.

The failure is that accepting the simplest explanation "it is mold"
limits the search for "all things" and some important facts are missed.

I see this all too often in computers, where people without a clue, fix
a broken system by replacing parts randomly.

If there are 5 componens in a system, replacing any one of them has a chance
of fixing the system, possibly as much as 20% and then declaring themselves
"experts".


Shotgunning is the true mark of a very poor tech. They don't want to
learn why things fail, or what parts are actually needed.

On 3/3/2013 2:02 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 3/2/2013 10:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
?
? The Daring Dufas wrote:
??
?? There comes a time in a mans life where he becomes so intolerant of
?? being in the employ of actinic sphincters that the he fears life in
?? prison for stomping the asshole until he quits twitching. I've had to
?? hide my crowbars whenever some of them got around me so I decided the
?? risk was too great and abandoned the corporate world for a life of
?? independent contracting. ^_^
?
?
? You were only six when you did that. ;-)
?

That's when I was remanded to the Catholic Parochial Gulag back in the
50's and introduced to Sister Godzilla. Child care was based on sheer
terror back then. That's why I don't like folks who mistreat kids. When
I was six, I decided all adults were full of crap, the mistake I made
was letting the nuns know it. O_o


Your next mistake was growing up. ;-)


I met a cute little 4 year old girl one day and because I flirt with
gals of all ages, I asked her if she would marry me when I grow up.
The tyke looked me up and down and said "You're already grown up." to
which I replied, "You're the first girl who's ever said that to me." ^_^

TDD

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
I see this all too often in computers, where people without a clue, fix
a broken system by replacing parts randomly.

If there are 5 componens in a system, replacing any one of them has a
chance
of fixing the system, possibly as much as 20% and then declaring
themselves
"experts".

Often it is the same component that fails 90% of the time. That makes the
'experts' have an even beter reputation if they know of this part.

I just fixed the dial light on a radio of mine that has a known failuer of a
driver transistor. It was a $ 2 part and about an hour of my time instead
of spending about $ 100 to ship it off and get it back. I did not trouble
shoot it, just tried the 'known' fix. The rado and where the part is
located at is past my ability to do actual trouble shooting, but not beyond
my ability to actually replace the part.

When I was working I would sometimes get a call while I was at home on
something at work was not working. By knowing some known problems, I could
tell the ones at work a thing or two to try,and many times that would fix
the problem.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

Or in other words, another failure of the proper application of
Occam's Razor. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is that
it is mold.

I can't believe this thread is still going on and people are still suggesting
mold. A few seconds with Google will explain the process.

Try "white powder screwdriver" and actually read a few of the posts.

Then maybe the OP will come back and report what he smells.

This was discussed here in alt.home.repair a few years ago.

--
Dan Espen

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Shotgunning is the true mark of a very poor tech. They don't
want to learn why things fail, or what parts are actually needed.

Might I respectfully semi-disagree?

I have always wanted to understand why something wasn't working correctly
before I fixed it. But as products have become more complex and harder to
troubleshoot, it seems increasingly necessary to, on some occasions, shotgun.
I don't like it, but if you're running a repair business, you have to get the
item out the door to stay in business.

If it's of any interest, I have never had a callback on anything I've
repaired. But that was in the days when virtually all electronics was composed
of discrete components you could unsolder and test, if need be.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"micky" wrote in message
...
My shop is in my basement, which has always seemed to be a very dry
floor. However, about 4% of my cords, my spare radio and tv knobs,
and the handles of my tools get a think layer of some sort of mold on
them. It's like a grey dust. (Or some other light color, I forget.)

I wasg them in the dishwasher and they come out clean, but once in the
basement again, after a few months, U notice that the same ones have
mold. And the rest never get mold.

I suppose I could just ignore this, since it doesn't spread, but I
wonder if any of you have ideas. No other part of my house is neat
or clean, but the shop is the most important place, and I'd like it to
be clean.

The plastic in some tool handles will break down over a period of time.
It is just bad quality plastic. Even some other wise good tools have this
problem.
If it only some tools and always the same ones, you just have to replace
the tools when the handles fall off.



Just use that dipping handle cover.
Here's one such product
http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
I have different tool boxes for different uses, such as electrical,
plumbing, carpentry, car, bicycle, motorbike, general, etc.
I get it in different colors, to identify which tool box or "application"
tool kit they belong to. It has really cut down on tool "evaporation". It
also has made enforcement of tool replacement to it's proper box far easier
with other family members.

Jeff Liebermann wrote on Sun, 03 Mar 2013 10:03:27 -0800:

Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

Hi Jeff,
I think it's a rare combination of both intelligence, wit, and
inquisitiveness, plus the rarest of all desire to help others
to answer the question, that makes you so valuable for us.

A few on alt.home.repair have that quality - but not very many
(probably a half dozen, e.g., Oren, krw,

Jeff Liebermann wrote on Sun, 03 Mar 2013 10:03:27 -0800:

Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

.... last post sent too soon by accident ... trying again ...

Hi Jeff,
I think it's a rare combination of both intelligence, wit, and
inquisitiveness, plus the rarest of all desire to help others
to answer the question, that makes you so valuable for us.

A few on alt.home.repair have that quality - but not very many
(probably a half dozen, e.g., Oren, Jim Elbrecht, SMS,
Trader4, Ed Pawlowski, & DerbyDad03, krw, etc.).

Plus, very few take the time and energy to post a photograph,
which, in my humble opinion, is just plain old COMMON COURTESY
when asking a question.

Some, but not all, make statements that aren't backed up
by URLs (when they should be).

And, most just drop off, without also writing up a SUMMARY
of lessons learned. Some do, but very few.

Lastly, some get downright acidic when they are confronted
with alternative information. They're the worst, of course,
because they're a cancer on the discussion.

Anyway, I, for one, greatly appreciate your efforts at figuring
this out. To my knowledge, it has never been figured out before
definitively (although I see a post that says it was discussed
in a.h.r but the poster didn't provide any URLs so we have to
look it up to see what the result was and the proof supplied).

Al Schmidt writes:

Jeff Liebermann wrote on Sun, 03 Mar 2013 10:03:27 -0800:

Thanks again. I'll spare you my lecture on the topic. The simple
version is from Sherlock Holmes, where Watson "sees" but does not
"observe". Plastic rot is similar in that we "see" mold, but few have
the time, abilities, and equipment to test if it's really mold.

... last post sent too soon by accident ... trying again ...

Hi Jeff,
I think it's a rare combination of both intelligence, wit, and
inquisitiveness, plus the rarest of all desire to help others
to answer the question, that makes you so valuable for us.

A few on alt.home.repair have that quality - but not very many
(probably a half dozen, e.g., Oren, Jim Elbrecht, SMS,
Trader4, Ed Pawlowski, & DerbyDad03, krw, etc.).

Plus, very few take the time and energy to post a photograph,
which, in my humble opinion, is just plain old COMMON COURTESY
when asking a question.

Some, but not all, make statements that aren't backed up
by URLs (when they should be).

And, most just drop off, without also writing up a SUMMARY
of lessons learned. Some do, but very few.

Lastly, some get downright acidic when they are confronted
with alternative information. They're the worst, of course,
because they're a cancer on the discussion.

Anyway, I, for one, greatly appreciate your efforts at figuring
this out. To my knowledge, it has never been figured out before
definitively (although I see a post that says it was discussed
in a.h.r but the poster didn't provide any URLs so we have to
look it up to see what the result was and the proof supplied).

Here you go:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.home.repair/screw$20driver$20handle/alt.home.repair/6F2DSkPIgM0/qe7WX3mCR7IJ

http://tinyurl.com/bwwkvgr


--
Dan Espen

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:31:47 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.home.repair/screw$20driver$20handle/alt.home.repair/6F2DSkPIgM0/qe7WX3mCR7IJ
http://tinyurl.com/bwwkvgr

That was a discussion over the Xcelite and Craftsman nutdrivers that
stink. There is nothing in that thread that I can find that even
mentions "mold" on the plastic handles. Please try to stay on topic.

There is also some wrong information in the thread.
1. It's not the plastic handles that stinks. It's the caesin (milk
based) plastic cases that reek. I have several of these and can
confirm that the drivers are fine and the cases are the source of the
smell.
2. The handles are made from acrylic and not vinyl as claimed. Vinyl
is quite flexible and very different from the hard acrylic. Hoewever,
I have NOT been able to definitively identify the type of plastic used
in my Vaco and Craftsman screwdrivers. My guess is acrylic, but I'm
not 100.0% sure. Maybe a burn test:
http://www.boedeker.com/burntest.htm

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:52:11 +0000 (UTC), Al Schmidt
wrote:

I think it's a rare combination of both intelligence, wit, and
inquisitiveness, plus the rarest of all desire to help others
to answer the question, that makes you so valuable for us.

Thanks. Hopefully that balances my previous screwups, errors, and bad
logic. It's impossible to write as much as I do, and not get
something wrong occasionally.

Lastly, some get downright acidic when they are confronted
with alternative information. They're the worst, of course,
because they're a cancer on the discussion.

That doesn't bother me much. I'm used to it. What bothers me are
one-line postings, that offer little thought and less information.
Unfortunately, many web forum pages have so many navigation aids and
so much advertising on their pages, that long and detailed replies
seem to be discouraged. The resultant one-liners are of little value.

To get a decent answer on usenet, one needs to provide:
1. What problem are you trying to solve or what are you
trying to accomplish? (Keep it simple)
2. What do you have to work with? (Make, model, version, etc)
3. What have you done so far and what happened?
4. Where are you stuck?
It is possible to get answers without all the aforementioned
information, but it is much more difficult and tends to attract vague
guesswork type answers. Besides, my crystal ball is being repaired by
my wizard, so I can't temporarily guess what someone is asking.

Anyway, I, for one, greatly appreciate your efforts at figuring
this out. To my knowledge, it has never been figured out before
definitively (although I see a post that says it was discussed
in a.h.r but the poster didn't provide any URLs so we have to
look it up to see what the result was and the proof supplied).

Thanks again. I did the usual Google searching for prior research
into the nature of the plastic "mold" and found little besides bad
guesses and vague assertions. I found plenty of complaints, but no
analysis. That's why I decided that it was time to dig in and analyze
the stuff. The convenient discovery of my drawer full of "moldy" nut
drivers also inspired the investigation.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann writes:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:31:47 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.home.repair/screw$20driver$20handle/alt.home.repair/6F2DSkPIgM0/qe7WX3mCR7IJ
http://tinyurl.com/bwwkvgr

That was a discussion over the Xcelite and Craftsman nutdrivers that
stink. There is nothing in that thread that I can find that even
mentions "mold" on the plastic handles. Please try to stay on topic.

The stink and the white powder are part of the same process.

Do some searches, I've already supplied working keywords.

--
Dan Espen

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:02:13 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann writes:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:31:47 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.home.repair/screw$20driver$20handle/alt.home.repair/6F2DSkPIgM0/qe7WX3mCR7IJ
http://tinyurl.com/bwwkvgr

That was a discussion over the Xcelite and Craftsman nutdrivers that
stink. There is nothing in that thread that I can find that even
mentions "mold" on the plastic handles. Please try to stay on topic.

The stink and the white powder are part of the same process.
Do some searches, I've already supplied working keywords.

Much as I appreciate your efforts, I don't consider myself responsible
for proving *your* point. If you believe that the white powder in the
handle, and the smell coming from the case, are one and the same,
methinks it is your responsibility to supply the relevant links which
demonstrate the connection and describes the process. The above URL
never even mentioned white powder or a similar problem. Got a better
URL?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I've been sniffing Xcelite (and similar) tools on and off for years, and I
always assumed the odor came from the handle, not the case.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:46:39 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I've been sniffing Xcelite (and similar) tools on and off for years, and I
always assumed the odor came from the handle, not the case.

It does. The ones without a case smell just as bad (just got a bunch
of screwdrivers at work last week).