BUB 209 wrote:

This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to
read it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little
higher at Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for
help, but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their
backs to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in
for something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was
seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of
the Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton
crew of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for
punching themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they
aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to
your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.
The sears hardwares here were pretty nice for a while but still never
carried any lumber. They they changed to Orchard hardware and kind of died
out. The big new mall near my office the sears store is huge and there are
usually a dozen employees always stocking shelves but 1 out of 10 actually
knows where something is and its usually the same old guy at the register
who knows me by name.

This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to read
it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little higher at
Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.

Bub 209 notes:

I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs to
the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season

Not the clerk's job to catch the kid, anyway. That calls for a store security
person who knows the ins and outs of messing with people and finding zilch when
a search is underway...zilch except for the cell phone already set to dial his
lawyer.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

"BUB 209" wrote in message
...
This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to
read
it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little higher at
Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for
help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs
to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in
for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing
was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of
the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton
crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to
your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.

You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:22:39 GMT, "Bob Schmall" wrote:


"BUB 209" wrote in message
...
This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to
read
it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little higher at
Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for
help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs
to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in
for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing
was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of
the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton
crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to
your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.

You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?


Seemed pretty clear that he was not advocating theft but rather making
commentary upon an overly-permissive society that affords perpetrators more
rights than victims, prosecutes those who defend themselves more vigorously
than those who commit the assaults, and willingly bends to cries of
"racism!" whenever a member of a favored minority is inconvenienced, even
if with probable cause. Probably also sprinkled with a bit of approbation
for a company that barely staffs a store with enough staff to sell things
and fails to provide adequate security capability, assuming that "we can
raise prices to make up for the high vapor pressure of our products".

This is nothing new, you simply noticed what goes on daily and has been
going on daily for decades. Back in the mid 70's I ran a tire store that
also sold do it your self parts and accessories. About once a month a guy
would come in and try to steal 12 to 15 sets of spark plugs. Other managers
of the same stores in town would alert the other managers to be expecting
the guy to show up and he always did.
The store is foolishly allowing this if they do not employ outside security.

This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to
read
it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little higher at
Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs to
the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.

Sounds familiar. In the tool department of the local Sears (we had a killer
Sears hardware, but it was closed) all the employees are either under 20 or
over 60. The young guys give you blank stares, the old guys talk about where
stuff was in the '70s, but can't find anything now.

I still shop Sears for many hand tools, so it pains me to see this in this
condition. I wish for the good old days again, where you could buy outboard
motors, metal-turning lathes, car parts, and guns.

GTO(John)

GTO(John)

"BUB 209" wrote in message
...
You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?

Brilliant! You guessed it!

Do I win a tool?

And poor Mark started frothing about our permissive society when all you
were doing was encouraging crime. What a pity.

Do I win a tool?


No, but you win first-in-line status at the
audition for our new reality show, "Match
THIS Price."

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:17:07 -0500, "Bob Schmall"
wrote:


"BUB 209" wrote in message
...
You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?

Brilliant! You guessed it!

Do I win a tool?

And poor Mark started frothing about our permissive society when all you
were doing was encouraging crime. What a pity.


I suspect Bub209 was pulling your leg there (especially since he prefaced
his comments with "you might find this depressing"): i.e. engaging in a
bit of sarcasm. But even if he was advocating the commission of crime,
that further reinforces my comments -- that is, his engaging in public
advocacy of the commission of criminal activity with no fear of
consequences.

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:17:07 -0500, "Bob Schmall"
wrote:

"BUB 209" wrote in message
...

You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?

Brilliant! You guessed it!

Do I win a tool?

And poor Mark started frothing about our permissive society
when all you were doing was encouraging crime. What a pity.

I suspect Bub209 was pulling your leg there (especially since
he prefaced his comments with "you might find this
depressing"): i.e. engaging in a bit of sarcasm. But even if
he was advocating the commission of crime, that further
reinforces my comments -- that is, his engaging in public
advocacy of the commission of criminal activity with no fear
of consequences.

Oh oh, here we go --

Fear not - the black helicopters are on their way to collect him
even as we speak...

(Good thing I was already wearing my tinfoil hat!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

On 16 Aug 2004 19:31:35 GMT, BUB 209 wrote:

One of the older male employees called for help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis.

Sounds like the store manager needs to be notified that his store
is being robbed with the benign assistance of his employees.
Also, are there no police in this town?

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:06:03 +0000, Dave Hinz wrote:

Sounds like the store manager needs to be notified that his store is being
robbed with the benign assistance of his employees. Also, are there no
police in this town?

Sometimes it's more than just trying to avoid the confrontation - there be
law-yers out there ready to take you for a lot more than the cost of lost
inventory if'n they can get an employee to make a "false" accusation of
theft.

Any business has to use all the tech stuff they can to help in their
defense - cameras/vcr's and whatever...

I worked in the Phoenix Woodcraft where we lost several months profits
through theft because a herd of these sleazes would decend on the store
and outnumber the employees 4 to 1. You just can't keep eyeballs on all
of 'em at once. That store BTW is history.

-Doug

--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw

Sears has an asset protection department. There sole purpose is to stop
inventory loss. I'm surprised that this store is allowing this to happen.
It's a quick way to get the AP manager replaced.
I work part time in a Sears stock room (gotta love that employee discount), and
in my 2 years there I've seen them nab plenty of shoplifters, tools aren't
usually what they're after. Watches, jewelry, electric razors and clothes are
their favorite targets.

Kevin Daly
http://hometown.aol.com/kdaly10475/page1.html

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:17:07 -0500, "Bob Schmall"
wrote:


"BUB 209" wrote in message
...
You're not actually encouraging theft, are you?

Brilliant! You guessed it!

Do I win a tool?

And poor Mark started frothing about our permissive society when all you
were doing was encouraging crime. What a pity.


I suspect Bub209 was pulling your leg there (especially since he
prefaced
his comments with "you might find this depressing"): i.e. engaging in a
bit of sarcasm. But even if he was advocating the commission of crime,
that further reinforces my comments -- that is, his engaging in public
advocacy of the commission of criminal activity with no fear of
consequences.

He was pulling your leg too.

"Kevin Daly" wrote in message
...
Sears has an asset protection department. There sole purpose is to stop
inventory loss. I'm surprised that this store is allowing this to happen.
It's a quick way to get the AP manager replaced.
I work part time in a Sears stock room (gotta love that employee
discount), and
in my 2 years there I've seen them nab plenty of shoplifters, tools aren't
usually what they're after. Watches, jewelry, electric razors and clothes
are
their favorite targets.

Kevin Daly
http://hometown.aol.com/kdaly10475/page1.html
I retired from a full line Sears store with Asset Protection personnel in
place. They were actually pretty good at catching the shoplifters. Now
work part time at a Sears Hardware store in another state and there are no
Asset Protection personnel. We do occasionally get the "snatch and run" guy
and policy is to not chase them. Get a license plate number if we can but
no personal contact or tackling, etc. It isn't worth someone getting hurt
and I suspect the cost of an Asset Protection staff on hand all the time
would be much more than the little we lose to shoplifting. On the other
hand, twice in the last month, I've been almost knocked down by aggressive
staff at WalMart as they chased a shoplifter out of their store and tackled
them right in front of me. The last shoplifter was screaming in pain that
they had broken some part of his body. And a third time, the emt's were
attaching a body board to a young lady on the tarmac as I approached the
store. I suspect another tackling had taken place. This particular store
seems to be on a revenge streak since a shoplifter shot a couple of
employees (not fatally) before the cops shot her (fatally) as she was being
interviewed in the security office a couple of years ago.

Tom responds:

n the other
hand, twice in the last month, I've been almost knocked down by aggressive
staff at WalMart as they chased a shoplifter out of their store and tackled
them right in front of me. The last shoplifter was screaming in pain that
they had broken some part of his body. And a third time, the emt's were
attaching a body board to a young lady on the tarmac as I approached the
store. I suspect another tackling had taken place. This particular store
seems to be on a revenge streak since a shoplifter shot a couple of
employees (not fatally) before the cops shot her (fatally) as she was being
interviewed in the security office a couple of years ago.

Revenge streak or not, those employees had better be damned sure those people
they are injuring can be proved to be thieves. If there's the slightest doubt,
they open themselves and WalMart to a case of which lawyer's dream, especially
with personal injury added to false accusations.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

I could only hope they mistake me for a thief :-) May God have mercy on
their souls because their wallet will belong to me :-)

ok back to the shadows ...

Clif
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Tom responds:

n the other
hand, twice in the last month, I've been almost knocked down by
aggressive
staff at WalMart as they chased a shoplifter out of their store and
tackled
them right in front of me. The last shoplifter was screaming in pain
that
they had broken some part of his body. And a third time, the emt's were
attaching a body board to a young lady on the tarmac as I approached the
store. I suspect another tackling had taken place. This particular
store
seems to be on a revenge streak since a shoplifter shot a couple of
employees (not fatally) before the cops shot her (fatally) as she was
being
interviewed in the security office a couple of years ago.

Revenge streak or not, those employees had better be damned sure those
people
they are injuring can be proved to be thieves. If there's the slightest
doubt,
they open themselves and WalMart to a case of which lawyer's dream,
especially
with personal injury added to false accusations.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Revenge streak or not, those employees had better be damned sure those
people
they are injuring can be proved to be thieves. If there's the slightest
doubt,
they open themselves and WalMart to a case of which lawyer's dream,
especially
with personal injury added to false accusations.

I suspect if the person being caught is a thief or not, he has a case if he
is badly injured. There are way too many liberal laws that go too far to
protect the guilty.

Leon writes:

I suspect if the person being caught is a thief or not, he has a case if he
is badly injured. There are way too many liberal laws that go too far to
protect the guilty

Oh, come on. Liberal laws. If some asshole comes diving on a person from a
store doorway, and causes harm, then where is the political stance of the
person who gets to sue? There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming the
person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.

But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole property.
That's much more important than any injury that might be suffered.

Pfui.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Oh, come on. Liberal laws. If some asshole comes diving on a person from a
store doorway, and causes harm, then where is the political stance of the
person who gets to sue? There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming
the
person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.

But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole
property.
That's much more important than any injury that might be suffered.


IMHO, if you steal, you deserve what happens to you. The simple solution is
to simply not steal.
If you are injured and are found innocent, then you have a legitimate reason
to file against the store or security. Its the lax laws that do not
discourage crime.

The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side somewhere
beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force. Makes me laugh
when I see cop shows where the perp is held at gunpoint. Unless he's an
idiot, he knows that the officer is not allowed to shoot. He can keep
walking away until, of course, he's tackled. Oh yes, presumption of
innocence goes beyond arrest; guilt's a matter for the courts to decide, so
your MAYBE is always a maybe, even when they're wearing six pairs of
designer jeans.

Then there's the car chase controversy....

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Leon writes:

I suspect if the person being caught is a thief or not, he has a case if
he
is badly injured. There are way too many liberal laws that go too far to
protect the guilty

Oh, come on. Liberal laws. If some asshole comes diving on a person from a
store doorway, and causes harm, then where is the political stance of the
person who gets to sue? There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming
the
person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.

But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole
property.
That's much more important than any injury that might be suffered.

Pfui.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

George writes:

The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side somewhere
beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force. Makes me laugh
when I see cop shows where the perp is held at gunpoint. Unless he's an
idiot, he knows that the officer is not allowed to shoot. He can keep
walking away until, of course, he's tackled. Oh yes, presumption of
innocence goes beyond arrest; guilt's a matter for the courts to decide, so
your MAYBE is always a maybe, even when they're wearing six pairs of
designer jeans

Yup, I guess you're right. Correct, that is. Obviously right. The Constitution
is all screwed up, according to you, because the presumption of innocence comes
from that source.

There must be a lot of idiots around, by the way. They keep getting caught.
Legally enough so that we have something like 1 person in 140 in jail in this
country.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side
somewhere
beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force.

Being a former security officer, I can tell you there is more than one way
someone, unfortunately it generally takes physical force to do it. I can
also tell you that depending on the state, firm you work for, local laws,
and store, that there are times when you are NOT ALLOWED BY LAW to touch a
person unless you are willing to personally "citizens arrest" that
individual and then take full reprecussion if that person is found innocent
of charges. Furthermore if you do hold that person against their will YOU
can be charged with False Imprisonment/holding someone against their will.
I believe, and this is MY opinion, that the laws are way too lax and that
too many people get away with too much junk because of lawyers (not all)
that want to make a quick buck. For example

- somoene broke into a house, and cut their leg on the glass that THEY
broke and sued the homeowner and won.
- someones family filed a wrongful death suit against a homeowner who shot
and killed a person who broke into their home.
- someone was awarded a large sum of money for spilling HOT COFFEE from a
popular restaurant drive through

Damn, someone has been busy, and we are paying for it

stepping off the soapbox, breathing in fresh air while I still can for free


Clif

Totally unfair to profile this poor kid that wears a winter parka in
the middle of summer!



(BUB 209) wrote in message ...
This post will be a little depressing to some of you, so you might want to read
it with a friend - and then wonder why prices might be a little higher at
Sears.
I was at the Sears Hardware in Alsip, IL last week, checking out at the
register.
This big kid in a winter parka sauntered in and started crusing the tool
aisles,
up and down, up and down. One of the older male employees called for help,
but all they would do was stand a couple of aisles away with their backs to the
kid. It was pretty obvious what was happening. The next day I went in for
something or other and asked the old guy if what I thought I was seeing was
what was really happening, and he said, yeah, on a daily basis. Many of the
Sears Hardware stores are going under. They're staffed with a skeleton crew
of mimimum wage employees whose only self-defense training is for punching
themselves in the chest to get the pacemaker going again, so they aren't
going to run out the door to tackle the guys. So if you want to add to your
tool collection, come over to Sears Hardware. It's open season.

"Citizens' Arrest" applies only to a felony in most states. Retail fraud
(Shoplifting) is a misdemeanor until a specified value is passed. That's
why most stores take the hit rather than the risk.

"Clif" wrote in message
news

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force.

Being a former security officer, I can tell you there is more than one way
someone, unfortunately it generally takes physical force to do it. I can
also tell you that depending on the state, firm you work for, local laws,
and store, that there are times when you are NOT ALLOWED BY LAW to touch a
person unless you are willing to personally "citizens arrest" that
individual and then take full reprecussion if that person is found
innocent
of charges. Furthermore if you do hold that person against their will YOU
can be charged with False Imprisonment/holding someone against their will.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

And who appointed a minimum wage clerk judge, jury and executioner?

It could be a policeman doing the chasing and tackeling and with the liberal
laws he could be in trouble even if he told the suspect to stop.

If I were attacked by someone like that, I'd feel thoroughly justified in
trying to recall what I learned at Parris Island and later, and applying
it.

If you were inocent, you would have every right to take action against the
person chasing you. If you were seen taking something and not paying,
"stealing", don't **** on my shoe and tell me it is raining.

Even the cops are not allowed to assault suspected criminals, as some find
out
to their surprise from time to time.

Which IMHO is part of the problem. Ir law breakers had the fear of being
punished, they may not break so many laws. If some one is seen stealing, he
is not a suspect in the eyes of most people, he is truely guilty of
stealing. But, unfortunately, the liberal laws protect the criminal.
Again, don't let the criminal **** on your shoe and tell you is raining.

Leon writes:

Which IMHO is part of the problem. Ir law breakers had the fear of being
punished, they may not break so many laws. If some one is seen stealing, he
is not a suspect in the eyes of most people, he is truely guilty of
stealing. But, unfortunately, the liberal laws protect the criminal.
Again, don't let the criminal **** on your shoe and tell you is raining.

Oh, bull****. What you are recommending is basically vigilante justice, with
the cops doing all the deciding of who is and isn't guilty.

Given, our legal system is in need of repair. Given, too many people get away
with too much. Given, something has to be done. Not given: cops with the right
to do as the damned well please on any or no evidence at all.

If we could be absolutely sure ever cop, especially rent-a-cops though, had
perfect judgment, then quite possibly allowing them to manhandle prisoners, or
about-to-be prisoners, might be justified. Unfortunately, no one has perfect
judgment, and double unfortunately, the Consitution gives us particular rights
around arrest and incarceration.

Law breakers should have the fear of the law drummed into them. But I don't
want clerks in stores decided that I shoved something in my pocket because they
didn't see me put it back on the shelf. Or, rather, I don't want them following
me out of the store and jumping on me, or anyone else, over such things. I'm
too old and fat to retaliate as I once might have, but I could sure as hell
remove some teeth and part of an ear, maybe all of it, before going down.

And then call the lawyers.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Yup, I guess you're right. Correct, that is. Obviously right. The
Constitution
is all screwed up, according to you, because the presumption of innocence
comes
from that source.

I understand your thinking here but the constitution is not perfect and
todays thief has had 200+ years to learn how to get around the law.
Presumption of innocense should not be applicable when there is no doubt
that some one is stealing and you tell them to stop.

There must be a lot of idiots around, by the way. They keep getting
caught.

And they keep getting out and continuing a life of crime.

Legally enough so that we have something like 1 person in 140 in jail in
this
country.

Now imagine if getting caught was not a good thing. I wonder how many
people would look for alternatives to stealing if they knew that their odds
of being hurt when running away from a crime were greater. I'm am not
saying that everyone shoud be tackeled and hurt, just those that have not
learned to stop when being chased by the police.

Liberal laws help keep the good people honest but only protect the criminal.

Ah yes.

Ad hominem and strawmen, as always. I merely corrected YOUR
misapprehension about the presumption of innocence, which means whether
caught in flagrante or not, you are not a thief until convicted.

"There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming
the person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.
But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole
property. That's much more important than any injury that might be
suffered."

Unfortunately, as indicated, there are NO legal ways for citizens to stop an
innocent individual, a fact which even the shoplifters know well. That's
why they keep walking. A police officer is somewhat protected by probable
cause, which includes accusation by a citizen. From that point on, there is
a criminal and tort system which asserts the obligation of the authorities,
not the citizenry, to abide by the law.


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
George writes:

The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side
somewhere
beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force. Makes me laugh
when I see cop shows where the perp is held at gunpoint. Unless he's an
idiot, he knows that the officer is not allowed to shoot. He can keep
walking away until, of course, he's tackled. Oh yes, presumption of
innocence goes beyond arrest; guilt's a matter for the courts to decide,
so
your MAYBE is always a maybe, even when they're wearing six pairs of
designer jeans

Yup, I guess you're right. Correct, that is. Obviously right. The
Constitution
is all screwed up, according to you, because the presumption of innocence
comes
from that source.

There must be a lot of idiots around, by the way. They keep getting
caught.
Legally enough so that we have something like 1 person in 140 in jail in
this
country.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

Last year at a grocery store near where I live, the male suspect died.

He was stealing diapers I believe. He suffocated. The security guards
held him on the ground with their knees on his chest. He couldn't
breath. Suffocation by chest compression, should be covered in training
courses.

John

Leon wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Oh, come on. Liberal laws. If some asshole comes diving on a person from a
store doorway, and causes harm, then where is the political stance of the
person who gets to sue? There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming

the

person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.

But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole

property.

That's much more important than any injury that might be suffered.



IMHO, if you steal, you deserve what happens to you. The simple solution is
to simply not steal.
If you are injured and are found innocent, then you have a legitimate reason
to file against the store or security. Its the lax laws that do not
discourage crime.

Clif wrote:

their wallet will belong to me :-)


Don't go willingly. Make sure you get falsly detained. And be sure it is
an embarrassing scene with them dragging you off.
You have to cover all the angles.

John

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Oh, bull****. What you are recommending is basically vigilante justice,
with
the cops doing all the deciding of who is and isn't guilty.

No, simply that the suspect stop running when a police officer is chasing
him. If the officer breaks a law then he will have to deal with that
problem. But If you run from a policeman and he tells you to stop and you
don't, you are just asking for problems as well you should be.

Given, our legal system is in need of repair. Given, too many people get
away
with too much. Given, something has to be done. Not given: cops with the
right
to do as the damned well please on any or no evidence at all.

You are blowing this out of proportion. I beleive the original idea was
someond being hurt when stealing. Cops do have the legal right to order
anyone to stop and to stop that person.

If we could be absolutely sure ever cop, especially rent-a-cops though,
had
perfect judgment, then quite possibly allowing them to manhandle
prisoners, or
about-to-be prisoners, might be justified. Unfortunately, no one has
perfect
judgment, and double unfortunately, the Consitution gives us particular
rights
around arrest and incarceration.

It is not a perfect world and never will be as long as we allow criminals to
rule our lives and get away with breaking the law. Still I believe that a
policeman should work within the law but a policeman is only human and if
you **** him off you should expect the consequenses. When people stop
respecting the policemans athority they should not expect to be treated like
royalty.

Law breakers should have the fear of the law drummed into them.

But the liberal laws protect them. It has to be up to the police officers
to put this fear into the criminals. Jail time obviousely does not work.
The only thing most criminals fear is being beaten up.

want clerks in stores decided that I shoved something in my pocket because
they
didn't see me put it back on the shelf. Or, rather, I don't want them
following
me out of the store and jumping on me, or anyone else, over such things.

Criminals do not want this to happen either. I seriousely doubt that you
will be jumped if you simply cooperate and show them that you don't have
something that you have not paid for.

I'm too old and fat to retaliate as I once might have, but I could sure as
hell
remove some teeth and part of an ear, maybe all of it, before going down.

And then call the lawyers.

And if you had actually stolen something while being treated this way, the
liberal laws have failed again. When did the the citizens loose the right
to protect their property?

Citizens arrest applies to any crime, misdemeanor or felony as long as the
citizen is willing to see it through, cases in point :

A delivery driver ran me and my wife off the road, misdemeanor because no
physical damage was done, arrested by me after getting license plate,
investigating, and finally arresting

A drunk driver, arrested by me, because when I called it in the cops said
since they didnt see they couldnt pull him unless he was driving funny,
nevermind he knocked over a mailbox, but since I was the one who saw it,
only I could prove it with my word, arrested by me, convicted

Assisting an officer who was pushed down by a "bystander" because his
brother was being arrested, cop didnt see it, but guess what, I did, ok the
cop got to arrest that one :-)

Point being, anyone can have someone arrested on *ANY* charge provided they
are willing to see it through

Clif

**NOT A COP, TEMPER NOT GOOD ENOUG**


"George" george@least wrote in message
...
"Citizens' Arrest" applies only to a felony in most states. Retail fraud
(Shoplifting) is a misdemeanor until a specified value is passed. That's
why most stores take the hit rather than the risk.

"Clif" wrote in message
news

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force.

Being a former security officer, I can tell you there is more than one
way
someone, unfortunately it generally takes physical force to do it. I
can
also tell you that depending on the state, firm you work for, local
laws,
and store, that there are times when you are NOT ALLOWED BY LAW to touch
a
person unless you are willing to personally "citizens arrest" that
individual and then take full reprecussion if that person is found
innocent
of charges. Furthermore if you do hold that person against their will
YOU
can be charged with False Imprisonment/holding someone against their
will.

"Eddie Munster" wrote in message
...
Last year at a grocery store near where I live, the male suspect died.

He was stealing diapers I believe. He suffocated. The security guards
held him on the ground with their knees on his chest. He couldn't
breath. Suffocation by chest compression, should be covered in training
courses.

John

That is the chance the guy took, He lost this one.

Believe me, I have no problem embarrasing people in public, ask my neices
and nephews lol


Clif
"Eddie Munster" wrote in message
...


Clif wrote:

their wallet will belong to me :-)


Don't go willingly. Make sure you get falsly detained. And be sure it is
an embarrassing scene with them dragging you off.
You have to cover all the angles.

John

I am gonna show my age, and perversness, A long time ago I saw on the back
of a mag, believe it was , well nevermind what it was lol, but a cop covered
in soot carrying out a child from a fire, with the caption "And you still
call him a pig"

There are some people out there who will only respect a
policeman/fireman/paramedic only when they are helping them. And if they
are not helping them, they dont care

Clif


"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Oh, bull****. What you are recommending is basically vigilante justice,
with
the cops doing all the deciding of who is and isn't guilty.

No, simply that the suspect stop running when a police officer is chasing
him. If the officer breaks a law then he will have to deal with that
problem. But If you run from a policeman and he tells you to stop and you
don't, you are just asking for problems as well you should be.

Given, our legal system is in need of repair. Given, too many people
get
away
with too much. Given, something has to be done. Not given: cops with the
right
to do as the damned well please on any or no evidence at all.

You are blowing this out of proportion. I beleive the original idea was
someond being hurt when stealing. Cops do have the legal right to order
anyone to stop and to stop that person.

If we could be absolutely sure ever cop, especially rent-a-cops though,
had
perfect judgment, then quite possibly allowing them to manhandle
prisoners, or
about-to-be prisoners, might be justified. Unfortunately, no one has
perfect
judgment, and double unfortunately, the Consitution gives us particular
rights
around arrest and incarceration.

It is not a perfect world and never will be as long as we allow criminals
to
rule our lives and get away with breaking the law. Still I believe that a
policeman should work within the law but a policeman is only human and if
you **** him off you should expect the consequenses. When people stop
respecting the policemans athority they should not expect to be treated
like
royalty.

Law breakers should have the fear of the law drummed into them.

But the liberal laws protect them. It has to be up to the police officers
to put this fear into the criminals. Jail time obviousely does not work.
The only thing most criminals fear is being beaten up.

want clerks in stores decided that I shoved something in my pocket
because
they
didn't see me put it back on the shelf. Or, rather, I don't want them
following
me out of the store and jumping on me, or anyone else, over such things.

Criminals do not want this to happen either. I seriousely doubt that you
will be jumped if you simply cooperate and show them that you don't have
something that you have not paid for.

I'm too old and fat to retaliate as I once might have, but I could sure
as
hell
remove some teeth and part of an ear, maybe all of it, before going
down.

And then call the lawyers.

And if you had actually stolen something while being treated this way, the
liberal laws have failed again. When did the the citizens loose the right
to protect their property?

"Clif" wrote in message
link.net...
I am gonna show my age, and perversness, A long time ago I saw on the back
of a mag, believe it was , well nevermind what it was lol, but a cop
covered
in soot carrying out a child from a fire, with the caption "And you still
call him a pig"

There are some people out there who will only respect a
policeman/fireman/paramedic only when they are helping them. And if they
are not helping them, they dont care

Clif


EXACTLY... Next thing you know our soldiers will loose our respect...
Ah.. seems like this happened to our admiral soldiers during the Viet Nam
war.

Charlie Self wrote:

George writes:

The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side
somewhere beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force. Makes me laugh
when I see cop shows where the perp is held at gunpoint. Unless he's an
idiot, he knows that the officer is not allowed to shoot. He can keep
walking away until, of course, he's tackled. Oh yes, presumption of
innocence goes beyond arrest; guilt's a matter for the courts to decide,
so your MAYBE is always a maybe, even when they're wearing six pairs of
designer jeans

Yup, I guess you're right. Correct, that is. Obviously right. The
Constitution is all screwed up, according to you, because the presumption
of innocence comes from that source.

Would you care to tell us where, exactly, in the Constitution this principle
is established?

There must be a lot of idiots around, by the way. They keep getting
caught. Legally enough so that we have something like 1 person in 140 in
jail in this country.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

What do you mean next thing you know? I had the fine pleasure of working
with our soldiers for 3 years at fort bragg. I was disgusted by the amount
of disrespect they face everyday. And whats worse is I saw it go on at a
military installation. Granted there was usually a fight within a few
minutes lol, but I cant believe I saw it at all.

Thank you to all that have served to protect me, I wish I had, but I didnt,
so I did the next best thing. I helped train our soldiers as a civilian
contractor

GOD BLESS THE USA

Clif
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..

"Clif" wrote in message
link.net...
I am gonna show my age, and perversness, A long time ago I saw on the
back
of a mag, believe it was , well nevermind what it was lol, but a cop
covered
in soot carrying out a child from a fire, with the caption "And you
still
call him a pig"

There are some people out there who will only respect a
policeman/fireman/paramedic only when they are helping them. And if
they
are not helping them, they dont care

Clif


EXACTLY... Next thing you know our soldiers will loose our respect...
Ah.. seems like this happened to our admiral soldiers during the Viet Nam
war.