Ah yes.

Ad hominem and strawmen, as always. I merely corrected YOUR
misapprehension about the presumption of innocence, which means whether
caught in flagrante or not, you are not a thief until convicted.

"There are other ways of stopping a thief, assuming
the person really is a thief, that do no include harming him physically.
But, hey, we have to remember. He stole property. Or MAYBE he stole
property. That's much more important than any injury that might be
suffered."

Unfortunately, as indicated, there are NO legal ways for citizens to stop an
innocent individual, a fact which even the shoplifters know well. That's
why they keep walking. A police officer is somewhat protected by probable
cause, which includes accusation by a citizen. From that point on, there is
a criminal and tort system which asserts the obligation of the authorities,
not the citizenry, to abide by the law.


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
George writes:

The _law_ is liberal, Charlie. Stick that chip over to the side
somewhere
beyond your shoulder.

No, there is NOT a way of restraining someone who wants to walk away
except
to restrain them by applying greater and opposite force. Makes me laugh
when I see cop shows where the perp is held at gunpoint. Unless he's an
idiot, he knows that the officer is not allowed to shoot. He can keep
walking away until, of course, he's tackled. Oh yes, presumption of
innocence goes beyond arrest; guilt's a matter for the courts to decide,
so
your MAYBE is always a maybe, even when they're wearing six pairs of
designer jeans

Yup, I guess you're right. Correct, that is. Obviously right. The
Constitution
is all screwed up, according to you, because the presumption of innocence
comes
from that source.

There must be a lot of idiots around, by the way. They keep getting
caught.
Legally enough so that we have something like 1 person in 140 in jail in
this
country.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary