Leon wrote:

I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax

Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory that
mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.

On 2/14/2016 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Leon wrote:

I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax

Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory that
mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.




HUH! and no I know! I did notice that Jet is really getting onto this
type machinery and even some of their sanders closely resemble the SuperMax.


Oh BTY I was not pointing fingers at you about the difficulty you were
having with the slides or indicate that you were incapable of figuring
things out. Initially I had problems with the up/down thing too. BUT I
also had problems with pronouncing certain words until I learned and I
did not request that the words be spelled differently so that I could
say them. ;~) My comments were aimed more at those that do not do any
woodworking and try to tell us the best way to do so.

In article ,
says...

On 2/13/2016 8:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.

So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.

Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
that price range I should consider?

I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.

I will chime in here since I have the Ridgid jointer.

In general, I am very happy with mine. It runs and cuts smoothly. The
bed is long enough that you can really create a straight edge on a
board. The bed height and the fence position adjustment are simple and
straight forward. It came out of the box with the infeed and outfeed
tables parallel. The tables are flat. (There is a minor 0.002 inch dip
on one far corner of the infeed table but that is definitely not a
problem since there is plenty of flat table before you get to the cutter
head.)

My only complaint is that the adjustment for the tilt of the fence seems
a little strange to me. (This is my first and only jointer so I do not
have any other data points for comparison.) The tilt adjustment
articulates at a couple of points so that the fence can move up and down
while adjusting the tilt. Since I wanted a small gap between the fence
and the table tops, I used a piece of card stock to position the fence
vertically while adjusting the tilt. I set it to 90 degrees when I first
got the jointer and I have not changed it since.

I bought the jointer is 2009. At that time it was listed at $428. I
decided to buy it when Home Depot was having a 1/2 price sale. (I think
that the reason for the sale was that this is when Home Deopt decided to
no longer stock the jointers in the store.) I thought that $214 was a
fair price. When I got to the store, the price that they charged me was
$107 plus tax. I asked and they checked and that was the price that they
had in their computer. The sales guy asked me if I wanted the second
unit that they had in stock. I did not have room for a second unit and
it was a good price but I declined.

You suck.

On 2/14/2016 3:22 PM, Dan Coby wrote:
On 2/13/2016 8:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.

So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.

Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
that price range I should consider?

I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.

I will chime in here since I have the Ridgid jointer.

In general, I am very happy with mine. It runs and cuts smoothly. The
bed is long enough that you can really create a straight edge on a
board. The bed height and the fence position adjustment are simple and
straight forward. It came out of the box with the infeed and outfeed
tables parallel. The tables are flat. (There is a minor 0.002 inch dip
on one far corner of the infeed table but that is definitely not a
problem since there is plenty of flat table before you get to the cutter
head.)

My only complaint is that the adjustment for the tilt of the fence seems
a little strange to me. (This is my first and only jointer so I do not
have any other data points for comparison.) The tilt adjustment
articulates at a couple of points so that the fence can move up and down
while adjusting the tilt. Since I wanted a small gap between the fence
and the table tops, I used a piece of card stock to position the fence
vertically while adjusting the tilt. I set it to 90 degrees when I first
got the jointer and I have not changed it since.

I bought the jointer is 2009. At that time it was listed at $428. I
decided to buy it when Home Depot was having a 1/2 price sale. (I think
that the reason for the sale was that this is when Home Deopt decided to
no longer stock the jointers in the store.) I thought that $214 was a
fair price. When I got to the store, the price that they charged me was
$107 plus tax. I asked and they checked and that was the price that they
had in their computer. The sales guy asked me if I wanted the second
unit that they had in stock. I did not have room for a second unit and
it was a good price but I declined.

Dan


Wholly crap, that's a great price.
No wonder they are hurting.. They halved, their half price..... :-O
That's your gain.

I would have bought the second one, come back and given it to a friend
for that price.


--
Jeff

Leon wrote:
On 2/14/2016 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Leon wrote:

I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax

Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory
that mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.




HUH! and no I know! I did notice that Jet is really getting onto this
type machinery and even some of their sanders closely resemble the
SuperMax.

Oh BTY I was not pointing fingers at you about the difficulty you were
having with the slides or indicate that you were incapable of figuring
things out. Initially I had problems with the up/down thing too.

NP. They make sense once one knows about it.

BUT I also had problems with pronouncing certain words until I
learned and I did not request that the words be spelled differently so
that I could
say them. ;~) My comments were aimed more at those that do not do
any woodworking and try to tell us the best way to do so.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach

On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:25:53 -0500
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Good thing you are keeping them reasons a secret too. If the general
public knew of them chaos would ensue.

i know

wait chaos has already ensued you are too late

On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 23:03:35 -0000 (UTC)
HerHusband wrote:

leary of Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but
definitely more cautious of the brand.

i would not buy grizzly and i have exactly one of them and like jet
they just have not put enough effort into the quality

On 2/15/2016 10:48 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 23:03:35 -0000 (UTC)
HerHusband wrote:

leary of Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but
definitely more cautious of the brand.

i would not buy grizzly and i have exactly one of them and like jet
they just have not put enough effort into the quality



Champagne on a beer budget?

On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in :

Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
do - get that with my drum sander.

OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
smooth but not flat.

Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better suited
than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face with his
drum sander.

But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do what a
planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a rum sander
has many advantages over a planer.

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood to
a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander is
fraught with disappointment.

If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.

If you use a planer (hopefully with a segmented spiral cutter head) you
probably need a jointer (hopefully with a segmented spiral cutter head)
Tis not easy to build fine furniture w/o a planer, as store bought
lumber is not always the correct thickness for proper esthetics, among
other things.

Jointing an edge is a luxury with a jointer, but can be done ok with a
TS. A Flat face, a requirement for use with a planer, is done on a
jointer. Generally speaking, 6" wide is enough, as (generally speaking)
wide boards should be made up of *less* than 6" wide pieces.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/13/2016 10:40 PM, woodchucker wrote:

That's mostly when you'll need the width. Right now I have about 70
board feet of 4/4 tiger maple mostly wider than 6"
and I have some 8/4 and 10/4 tiger maple that is 12 or more inches wide.
(leg stock). I will use the jointer to rough a bit, and wind up doing
the rest by hand. Wish I had 8", and wish I had carbide spiral cutter.
I think the tear out would be minimized.

You get about zero tear out with spiral cutter head, but that is only
one of the advantages. Others a no setup (always level knives).
Stay sharp 4 times longer (4 edges instead of one) Small chips (don't
clog dust collector pipes, quiet as a mouse (you can plane wide tiger
maple in your basement, late at night, in your underwear, and not wake
the neighbors. I would not buy a planer or jointer without the spiral,
segmented cutters.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in :

Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
do - get that with my drum sander.

OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
smooth but not flat.

Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better suited
than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face with his
drum sander.

But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do what a
planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a rum sander
has many advantages over a planer.

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood to
a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander is
fraught with disappointment.

True for the most part but with a sled, not just a panel so much as a
reinforced panel that remains flat, you can flatten a surface on a
planer, flip and make the opposite surface parallel with the other.

This is not an easy task and a jointer would better suited, but in a
pinch... The drum sander essentially works the same as a planer and can
do that of a planer but typically slower and with a smoother result.


If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.

On 02/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
....

If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.
....

The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.

--

Jack wrote:
On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in
:
Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
and do - get that with my drum sander.

OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
smooth but not flat.

Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better
suited than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face
with his drum sander.

But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do
what a planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a
rum sander has many advantages over a planer.

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood
to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander
is fraught with disappointment.

I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least 1000
brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.

On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 12:50:18 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.


Isn't that the truth. I have seen so many (especially hobbyists) paralyze themselves by waiting for a product that will make up for their lack of skills. Sometimes it isn't even a more expensive solution, just the simple promise that a new tool is coming out. With so many solutions out there for almost any woodworking challenge, unless you spot a tool that will be a backbone of your construction technique there isn't much of a reason to wait on a new product.

This is even more true when you stop and consider how many actual hours of usage said tool will face in a year's worth of work. To me it is almost always better to find an immediate solution and get to work on the product.

Robert

On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
...

If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.
...

The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.

I agree if you are talking about a $600 Festool shop vac vs a $100
Ridged. I don't agree if you are talking about a jointer or a planer.
The difference is not slight, it is major, and the results are not the
same. And, you don't have to buy the most expensive one, you can buy
Grizzly instead. In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
planer/jointer.

As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
(I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:
....

The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.

I agree if you are talking about a $600 Festool shop vac vs a $100
Ridged. I don't agree if you are talking about a jointer or a planer.
The difference is not slight, it is major, and the results are not the
same. And, you don't have to buy the most expensive one, you can buy
Grizzly instead. In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
planer/jointer.

That's not the same argument as not buying anything unless...

As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
(I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.

Mine is also (old Rockwell Delta 8") and I've used ones with both
helical solid knives and the segmented heads as well and just don't see
_that_ much difference, sorry. In fact, the segmented heads I've
seen/used left telltale marks behind...easy enough to remove, sure, but...

--

On 2/18/2016 2:26 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack wrote:

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood
to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander
is fraught with disappointment.

I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least 1000
brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.

How many brd.ft of 1 1/8" or 5/4" or 1/2" stock have you made with your
sander? Not much I imagine. How long would it take you to sand a 2x6x8
to 1 1/8" thickness?

Also, flattening twisted stock on a drum sander or a planer is a royal
pia, which is why jointers exist. Can you sand a hunk of black walnut
firewood flat? Simple with a jointer. If you don't do any of this
stuff, maybe a jointer/planer is not needed. If you do, then a drum
sander may be useful at some point, but it is not the right tool for
this stuff.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/19/2016 9:27 AM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
....

... In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
planer/jointer.

That's not the same argument as not buying anything unless...

As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
(I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.
....

The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well...

But, I hadn't realized the price differential had come down to that
level; just looked up a couple. Thought was still closer to 2X that...

Still I'd never tell somebody they _had_ to spend that extra $400-500 or
the rest was a mistake.

--

On 2/18/2016 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 12:50:18 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.


Isn't that the truth. I have seen so many (especially hobbyists) paralyze themselves by waiting
for a product that will make up for their lack of skills.

Just as common is a hobbyists buying the first cheap tool they see and
ending up replacing it with one that does the job, paying twice, or
quitting because their tools weren't up to the task. At any rate, the
tool is a helical spiral cutter head. Grizzly makes cheap ones, or you
can splurge and spend a ton on an industrial high dollar one. If you are
hard up for cash, get the grizzly rather than wait for the industrial one.

Sometimes it isn't even a more expensivesolution, just the simple promise that a new tool is
coming out. With so many solutions out therefor almost any woodworking challenge, unless you
spot a tool that will be a backbone of yourconstruction technique there isn't much of a
reason to wait on a new product.

In this case, it's not waiting for a new product, spiral cutter heads
have been around a long time.

This is even more true when you stop and consider how many actual hours of usage said tool will
face in a year's worth of work. To me it is almost always better to find an immediate solution and
get to work on the product.

Often true, but in a planer/jointer, if buying one, you probably will be
using it a lot for many years. Much better to save up a few dollars and
buy one that does the job really well than buy a so-so one that you will
be stuck with for 40 years. If you are not going to use it long enough,
or often enough to justify the extra cost, you probably should re-think
buying it to begin with. Jointers and planers are not the first tool
woodworkers (particularly hobbyist) buy.

My recommendation is not to go Harbor Freight on this purchase, this is
not a throwaway purchase like a HF air stapler, and no need to sell the
wife and kids and go Festool, but at least go spiral, you will be happy
you did.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2016 10:27 AM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:

Mine is also (old Rockwell Delta 8") and I've used ones with both
helical solid knives and the segmented heads as well and just don't see
_that_ much difference, sorry. In fact, the segmented heads I've
seen/used left telltale marks behind...easy enough to remove, sure, but...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)

BTW, I've read that segmented knives leave knife marks, but I don't see
them. My long blade jointer doesn't either, although I've read they do,
and are harder to sand out than the segmented knives. I'm sure they
both do if you look with a magnifying glass, but they are of no
consequence, ie, a non issue to me.

What is an issue to me is I should have replaced my flat bladed jointer
with a spiral cutter head a long time ago. Now, I'm too old, and don't
do enough woodwork to justify it. I thought about getting a replacement
cutter head years ago but didn't, now I still think about it every time
I use it, can't justify it. They say it's not what you did that you
regret, but what you didn't do... That's what I'm talking about, and
why I say spend the extra on this.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:
On 2/18/2016 2:26 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack wrote:

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get
wood to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or
sander is fraught with disappointment.

I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least
1000 brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.

How many brd.ft of 1 1/8" or 5/4" or 1/2" stock have you made with
your sander? Not much I imagine.

Add 1/4, 3/8, 7/16, 3/4, 13/16, 7/8 and 15/16 and it is at least 1000.
Probably considerably more as I always buy rough stock.

How long would it take you to sand a 2x6x8 to 1 1/8" thickness?

If it is actually 2" thick I would first rip down to 1 1/4 or a bit more.
After that, 4-5 passes...4-5 minutes.

Also, flattening twisted stock on a drum sander or a planer is a royal
pia, which is why jointers exist. Can you sand a hunk of black walnut
firewood flat?

Sure, as long as it is no more than 3" thick.

Simple with a jointer. If you don't do any of this
stuff, maybe a jointer/planer is not needed. If you do, then a drum
sander may be useful at some point, but it is not the right tool for
this stuff.

You have your preference, I have mine. There is no doubt that a planer is
useful and faster but budgetary and space considerations are a
consideration. As I've said before, I would get rid of ANY other tool
before the sander.

On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
....

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)
....

A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
enough as to not bother me...
C) Eh?
D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
they've commented they're on a budget.

--

On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)
...

A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
enough as to not bother me...
C) Eh?
D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
they've commented they're on a budget.

--


Seems to be a lot of conjecture and speculation as to what the OP should
buy. We really need to get this right. To do it properly, the OP
should submit the following:
Income records for the past five years
Liabilities, mortgage, credit card statements.
List of woodworking projects from the past three years.
Projected projects for the next three years. Plans should be included
if available.
Inventory of wood and materials.

Once those materials are submitted the Equipment Committee will review
and recommend the right equipment.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:20:17 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)
...

A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
enough as to not bother me...
C) Eh?
D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
they've commented they're on a budget.

--


Seems to be a lot of conjecture and speculation as to what the OP should
buy. We really need to get this right. To do it properly, the OP
should submit the following:
Income records for the past five years
Liabilities, mortgage, credit card statements.
List of woodworking projects from the past three years.
Projected projects for the next three years. Plans should be included
if available.
Inventory of wood and materials.

Once those materials are submitted the Equipment Committee will review
and recommend the right equipment.

I can recommend a tool without marrying the guy! ;-)

On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)

D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

They may last as long, but once they get dull, that's it, and
sharpening/set up is not fun. A segmented cutter can simply be rotated
so you have 4 times the usage before sharpening/replacement, and set up
is automatic. Also a nick in a blade is simple to fix just by rotating
one cutter, and again, alignment is automatic.

I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
they've commented they're on a budget.

I guess it comes down to how long it would take you to save up a few
hundred bucks. My experience is it is well worth the wait, the
advantages are rather large. It's not like it cost 5-6 times as much,
it's just a bit more money. A Festool shop vac cost 5-6 times as much
as a normal shop vac, and the advantages are not really much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)

D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

They may last as long, but once they get dull, that's it, and
sharpening/set up is not fun. A segmented cutter can simply be rotated
so you have 4 times the usage before sharpening/replacement, and set up
is automatic. Also a nick in a blade is simple to fix just by rotating
one cutter, and again, alignment is automatic.
....

No, set up is _not_ much of an issue with a knife-setting jig. Does
your cutterhead have the back-pressure springs? If not, it can indeed
be a nuisance, but if have them to work against, it's quite a routine
exercise. I suppose it helps to have done enough to have developed both
a setup method and a little dexterity in the process over the 30+ years...

As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this spring.

That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.

--

On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:
....

I guess it comes down to how long it would take you to save up a few
hundred bucks. My experience is it is well worth the wait, the
advantages are rather large. ...

I thought you above were rueing the fact you hadn't done so? If not,
what's the advantage other than pure hypothesis of which you speak?

I hadn't priced replacements so used Grizz...turns out they're basically
a wash for replacement as far as initial cost...the 8" head has 40
inserts that are roughly $40/10 so $40*4 = $160 per set or, dividing out
the four sides, $40/one edge. That's about the cost of their set of
straight knives. Of course, you've got 4X the cost outlay at one time
to counter that a little so there is more pain up front although one may
manage to stagger replacement such that never do buy a full new set at once.

OTOH, while the carbide solid knives were more up front, I've had these
sets for approaching 20 years and they'll outlast me with just a few
sharpenings as they're still wide enough for at least several more times
as long as they don't get deeply knicked...

Anyway, if I were in the market for a new one, I'd consider it but it
wouldn't be the primary reason for a go/no-go decision by any stretch
if, as OP notes, were on a budget and for a smaller machine to start with.

If I were back at the time I bought the PM Model 66, I'd probably be on
the same side of the fence -- I did, in fact, suffer along with an old
DeWalt RAS as the only thing for years until I could finally feel could
afford the 66 that I had lusted for for years...but I was _much_ younger
and full of plans at the time, then!!!

But, I don't get that's OP's position now and I'm counseling him, not
making my own decision here.

--

On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well...

Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
the same.

But, I hadn't realized the price differential had come down to that
level; just looked up a couple. Thought was still closer to 2X that...

Still I'd never tell somebody they _had_ to spend that extra $400-500 or
the rest was a mistake.

Obviously I'm not telling anyone what they _had_ to do. I'm also not
telling them to buy an expensive planer. They can buy a cheap Grizzly
segmented helical planer for not a whole lot more than a cheap long
blade Grizzly planer. If money is not an issue, they can buy a better
Laguna, or similar spiral cutter head planer for 2x as much money. Both
tools will do the same job, and depending on your finances, and usage,
either will perform much better than a long blade planer. If you are a
hobbyist, or a small custom shop, either might work ok, if you're A huge
furniture manufacturer, then that little Laguna might look like a piece
of junk.

I don't recommend buying junk though. Harbor Freight sells a 12" planer
for under $300. That might suit some, but not me. If you need a planer
today, and only have $300 to spend, that could be your only choice I
guess, otherwise, I'd recommend against it. If you already own a decent
long blade planer or jointer, no need to sell them and buy ones with
helical segmented cutter heads, but if you did, you would _not_ be unhappy.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote in :


Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
about the same.


I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
difference, IIRC.

I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.

(FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)

Puckdropper

On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well...

Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
the same.

Not really they don't, no...they're two toally different class of
machines besides the premium for the

Rigid Festool
Drum Size 6 Gallons (US) 6.9 (6.3 filter bag capacity)
Peak HP 3.5 Nonsense spec
Air Watts 124
Voltage 120 120
CFM 62 137 CFM (Over double note)
Amps 5.8 2.9-10
Filter 1-Layer Standard HEPA(*)
pleated paper

(*) US DOE HEPA Definition--Must capture 99.997% of all particulates
=0.3 microns.

Plus, the Festool has automatic switching of the associated tools
plugged into it and many other amenities/features. Just not the same
beasties at all to compare to each other.

....

--

On 20 Feb 2016 18:25:06 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Jack wrote in :


Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
about the same.


I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
difference, IIRC.

I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.

(FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)

Puckdropper

The Goretex filters for a Shopvac will give you a good approximation
of a hepa filtered one.

On 02/20/2016 3:35 PM, Markem wrote:
....

The Goretex filters for a Shopvac will give you a good approximation
of a hepa filtered one.

Thru the filter itself, maybe; most non-HEPA-qualified vac's have quite
a lot of bypass leakage, however, which pretty much defeats the purpose...

--

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-6, HerHusband wrote:
I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.


There's a used 6" powermatic in Portland for $475. Check it out.... Make an offer?... if it's still available.
https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/tls/5455011649.html

A 6" Jet in Vancouver for $450. Make an offer if still available.
https://portland.craigslist.org/clk/tls/5456569023.html

Sonny

On 2/20/2016 9:37 AM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:

As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this spring.

That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.

I hear that. I'm not recommending anyone "switch", just not to go there
in the first place. I myself have not switched my long blade jointer.
I'm certain however, if I was 40 years younger and buying my first
jointer/planer, they would have the segmented spiral cutter heads.

I also would buy a Domino or similar tool rather than an el cheapo Delta
mortise machine. I'd have to look into whether the extra 300 for the
Festool was worth it vs say a Lamello, but I know I'd not be buying a
dedicated mortiser, even though we lived many years w/o the Domino. This
is based on owning a cheap delta mortiser, and Leon's comments on the
Domino as well as watching them in use and seeing the advantages.

This is just my opinion of course. Those just starting out can take it
or leave it, it's just one guys opinion.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

Standard 2.5" hoses fit it, along with their attachments, so my old shop
vac stuff works fine. It doesn't go on automatically when I plug a tool
into it, but I don't care there either, because all my tools are on a
dust collector system. I have no problem flicking the switch on my Long
Ranger.

My main reason for getting rid of the shop vac, which I've had for 40
years, and it still works same as it did the day I got it, was
noise.(damn things you want to break never do)

The ridged sucks harder, a plus, but mainly it is quiet enough it
doesn't bother me in the least. The old Shop Vac was the only tool I
needed ear muffs with, and that includes chainsaws and routers, although
routers are nasty noise wise. That shop vac made my ears bleed.

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well...
Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
the same.

Not really they don't, no...they're two toally different class of
machines besides the premium for the

Rigid Festool
Drum Size 6 Gallons (US) 6.9 (6.3 filter bag capacity)
Peak HP 3.5 Nonsense spec
Air Watts 124
Voltage 120 120
CFM 62 137 CFM (Over double note)
Amps 5.8 2.9-10
Filter 1-Layer Standard HEPA(*)
pleated paper

(*) US DOE HEPA Definition--Must capture 99.997% of all particulates
=0.3 microns.

Plus, the Festool has automatic switching of the associated tools
plugged into it and many other amenities/features. Just not the same
beasties at all to compare to each other.

...

--

On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:
On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.

OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.

It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
a health standpoint.

Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
cut it in that environment.

....

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

W/ $30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
you'd best not be waiting...

I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
concerned much about the little.

But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
pea-green and white.

--

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:34:56 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

6HP??? giggle

Standard 2.5" hoses fit it, along with their attachments, so my old shop
vac stuff works fine. It doesn't go on automatically when I plug a tool
into it, but I don't care there either, because all my tools are on a
dust collector system. I have no problem flicking the switch on my Long
Ranger.

My main reason for getting rid of the shop vac, which I've had for 40
years, and it still works same as it did the day I got it, was
noise.(damn things you want to break never do)

The ridged sucks harder, a plus, but mainly it is quiet enough it
doesn't bother me in the least. The old Shop Vac was the only tool I
needed ear muffs with, and that includes chainsaws and routers, although
routers are nasty noise wise. That shop vac made my ears bleed.

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

Jack wrote in :

On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.


Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
vacuum seals pretty well.

Puckdropper

On 2/21/2016 1:40 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:
On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.

OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.

It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
a health standpoint.

Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
cut it in that environment.

...

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

W/ $30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
you'd best not be waiting...

I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
concerned much about the little.

But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
pea-green and white.



I prefer to think regular green and black. No white. LOL

On 2/21/2016 11:51 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/20/2016 9:37 AM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:

As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this
spring.

That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.

I hear that. I'm not recommending anyone "switch", just not to go there
in the first place. I myself have not switched my long blade jointer.
I'm certain however, if I was 40 years younger and buying my first
jointer/planer, they would have the segmented spiral cutter heads.

I also would buy a Domino or similar tool rather than an el cheapo Delta
mortise machine. I'd have to look into whether the extra 300 for the
Festool was worth it vs say a Lamello, but I know I'd not be buying a
dedicated mortiser, even though we lived many years w/o the Domino. This
is based on owning a cheap delta mortiser, and Leon's comments on the
Domino as well as watching them in use and seeing the advantages.

This is just my opinion of course. Those just starting out can take it
or leave it, it's just one guys opinion.


Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.

The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.

There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
half of the joint.

Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.

Just saying.