On 2/21/2016 11:24 PM, Leon wrote:

Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.

The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.

There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
half of the joint.

Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.

Just saying.

All good reasons for buying the Domino I'd think. Assuming you are
right about the Lamello, I wouldn't be comfortable joining legs and
rails and such with a 1/4" biscuit depth. I don't *need* anything like
that for edge gluing table tops and such, not needed imo. Pocket joints
are fine for FF, but any where you would need/use a mortising machine, a
Domino would seem the way to go. Your experience bears that out and if
I were making my first cabinets, I'd be buying or saving up for one.
Since I'm on closer to my last cabinet, I'll just get a drool cup and
save my money for something more appropriate.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/21/2016 2:40 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.

OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.

It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
a health standpoint.

Yeah, I hear/read that all the time. I've done woodwork with no dust
collection or dust masks for going on 60 years. When younger, I've done
a ton of body work, sanding tons of body filler, not to mention dry wall
w/o dust masks, (usually with a smoke hanging from my lips) and painting
numerous cars and trucks with just a dust mask. If my lungs could talk
they would be mostly cursing. Not recommending anyone do that, but I'm
closing in on the end of my run and my lungs still work fine.

A side note, we bought a new sweeper a few years ago, and it has a HEPA
filter on it. Absolutely worthless imo. Just another filter to clean.
70 years of sweeping rugs w/o one and no ill effects convinces me a
lot of this stuff is salesman hype.

For me, I can use my shop vac and immediately stain/varnish with no
effects, so whatever invisible fine particles are spewing forth means
about nothing to me.

Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
cut it in that environment.

The EPA can kiss my dusty little butt. Too many little people with big
government power forcing people to do things their way. I'm glad I'm
not beginning my life where these little tyrants are controlling
everything you do.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

W/ $30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
you'd best not be waiting...

I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
concerned much about the little.

But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
pea-green and white.

--

On 02/22/2016 8:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/21/2016 2:40 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.

OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.

It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
a health standpoint.

Yeah, I hear/read that all the time. I've done woodwork with no dust
collection or dust masks for going on 60 years. When younger, I've done
a ton of body work, sanding tons of body filler, not to mention dry wall
w/o dust masks, (usually with a smoke hanging from my lips) and painting
numerous cars and trucks with just a dust mask. If my lungs could talk
they would be mostly cursing. Not recommending anyone do that, but I'm
closing in on the end of my run and my lungs still work fine.
....

What one individual gets lucky getting by with, many others get and die
early from lung cancer or other ailments...

Other diatribes snipped for brevity...

While I'm no fan of the RPP, that wasn't the point so much as that the
comparison drawn was to two markedly different product specifications
and target markets explains much of the significant price differential;
not that one is simply the same product as the other but over-priced.

--

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
Jack wrote in :


Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
about the same.


I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
difference, IIRC.

I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.

FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
FWIW also with a quiet vac you are more likely to use the vac with all of
your tools that work with a vac. I own 5 Festool power tools, not counting
the Festool vac. I never operate any of them with out the vac except for
the drill. So when ever I operate any of my corded Festool tools, the vac
automatically comes on.
Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
or high volume suction, and clean air exhaust. Clean air exhaust is
important for your lungs and for your finishes. I have no second thoughts
about sanding in close proximity to freshly stained or varnished pieces.

To sum it up, if you want to buy a vac that you will probably use more
because of these features buy better quality. If none of the above is
important to you then there are the ones they you find cheaply priced.
You do have the option of having a better vac.





(FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)

Puckdropper

On 02/22/2016 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:
....

FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
....
Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
or high volume suction, ...
....

Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
manual, Leon?

--

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
Jack wrote in :

On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.


Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
vacuum seals pretty well.

Puckdropper


If the vac is not HEPA certified the filter is not guaranteed to prevent
the particles that you are wanting to capture from escaping. The HEPA
filters in my vac remain almost spotless, even after 8 years of use. The
vast majority of the fine particles are captured by the primary disposable
filter bag. As a result I never have to clean those final HEPA filters, or
any filters. I take that back, about 9 months ago one of the bags broke
and the HEPA filters did all of the work and and yo be cleaned that 1 time.

dpb wrote:
On 02/22/2016 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
...
Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
or high volume suction, ...
...

Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
manual, Leon?

--



Suction strength is manually regulated. If you are sanding something like
face frames or the edge of a board you want to increase suction as the
sander pad extends over the edge of the work and dust can fall over the
edge and there will be a big suction leak.

On 02/22/2016 9:23 AM, Leon wrote:
wrote:
....

Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
manual, Leon?

....

Suction strength is manually regulated. ...

I figured as much or would be balleyhooed feature...

"Inquiring minds..."

--

On 2/22/2016 10:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 02/22/2016 9:23 AM, Leon wrote:
wrote:
...

Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
manual, Leon?

...

Suction strength is manually regulated. ...

I figured as much or would be balleyhooed feature...

"Inquiring minds..."

--



LOL

Jack wrote:
On 2/21/2016 11:24 PM, Leon wrote:

Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.

The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.

There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
half of the joint.

Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.

Just saying.

All good reasons for buying the Domino I'd think. Assuming you are
right about the Lamello, I wouldn't be comfortable joining legs and
rails and such with a 1/4" biscuit depth. I don't *need* anything like
that for edge gluing table tops and such, not needed imo. Pocket joints
are fine for FF, but any where you would need/use a mortising machine, a
Domino would seem the way to go. Your experience bears that out and if
I were making my first cabinets, I'd be buying or saving up for one.
Since I'm on closer to my last cabinet, I'll just get a drool cup and
save my money for something more appropriate.



I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use them
for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I suspect
the plate joiners will disappear.

On 2/22/2016 10:18 AM, Leon wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
vacuum seals pretty well.
Puckdropper

If the vac is not HEPA certified the filter is not guaranteed to prevent
the particles that you are wanting to capture from escaping. The HEPA
filters in my vac remain almost spotless, even after 8 years of use. The
vast majority of the fine particles are captured by the primary disposable
filter bag. As a result I never have to clean those final HEPA filters, or
any filters. I take that back, about 9 months ago one of the bags broke
and the HEPA filters did all of the work and and yo be cleaned that 1 time.

Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally cleaning
the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon tank. My
vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it because of the
noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop Vac I hated to use
because it required ear muffs or your ears would bleed. The main thing
with the old shop vac was the high pitched scream. That is completely
gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it makes, it's simply not a
problem at all.

The only small tool I attach a vac is my sander. The small hose to my
sander has an air port that I can open if the vac works too hard, so two
speeds isn't needed. I can't recall ever wanting to slow down a vac.

My recommendation remains spend the extra money on the spiral cutterhead
planer or jointer rather than a Festool shop vac. I guess if your prime
reason for buying a shop vac is keeping dust over 1 micron out of your
lungs, get a Festool vac, or even better, look for work in a silicon
valley clean room making computer chips or hard drives. Woodwork might
be a little too risky for you.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use them
for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I suspect
the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
pretty neat videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs

Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/23/2016 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use
them
for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I
suspect
the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
pretty neat videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs

Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...


Just a guess here, the Domino is unique and I'm sure it probably has
another 8~10 years of patent protection.

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a Domino an
plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2 holes for dowels.

On 2/23/2016 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use
them
for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I
suspect
the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
pretty neat videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs

Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...


I grinned through that and another of his video's. Took me back to
building furniture with construction grade lumber. I was amused at the
effort that went in to mounting the drawer slides too. ;~)

Jack wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino
for panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and
the ridged floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work
better with alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating
tenons work so well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what
all I would use them for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and
they certainly will, I suspect the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone.

Lots of people are making their own, numerous videos on Youtube.

Jack wrote in :


Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally
cleaning the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon
tank. My vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it
because of the noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop
Vac I hated to use because it required ear muffs or your ears would
bleed. The main thing with the old shop vac was the high pitched
scream. That is completely gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it
makes, it's simply not a problem at all.

*Snip*

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
don't have to clean the big filter.

I did put the dust diffuser/muffler on mine, and while it does help it's
only a marginal muffling. The diffuser is more important, as that vacuum
is set up with a marketing checkbox "can be used as leaf blower".

Puckdropper

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a Domino an
plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2 holes for dowels.

You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.

But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.

http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600

or

http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in Germany, and all tools made there)

The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.

No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of the Domino's performance.

That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned, now...

Robert

On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
holes for dowels.

You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.

But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.

http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600

or

http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
Germany, and all tools made there)

The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.

No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
the Domino's performance.

That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
on the mating side of the joint.

And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.


The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
later. Is that clear at a all? LOL


Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
now...



Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
the self centering one. ;~)

I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.

In article , says...

Jack wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino
for panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and
the ridged floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work
better with alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating
tenons work so well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what
all I would use them for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and
they certainly will, I suspect the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone.

Lots of people are making their own, numerous videos on Youtube.

Not really. Lots of people making jigs of one kind or another.
Something that does what the Domino does as conveniently and
efficiently, not so much.

Some guy with engineering talent and a well equipped machine shop might
have made an actual clone for his own use, but that's not something that
the average hobbyist is going to pull off.

On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in :


Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally
cleaning the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon
tank. My vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it
because of the noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop
Vac I hated to use because it required ear muffs or your ears would
bleed. The main thing with the old shop vac was the high pitched
scream. That is completely gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it
makes, it's simply not a problem at all.

*Snip*

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
don't have to clean the big filter.

I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
these things work?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Excellent post Leon, with a lot of great info. I'm not a dowel fan
myself, and also have the same dowel jig you have that I inherited.
Used it a few times, not accurate enough for dowels. A prime attraction
of the Domino, among many, is the joints can adjust a bit, so perfect
precision is not needed. Dowels must be absolutely perfect, something
that is incompatible with custom woodwork, imo.

On 2/24/2016 9:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
holes for dowels.

You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.

But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.

http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600

or

http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
Germany, and all tools made there)

The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.

No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
the Domino's performance.

That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
on the mating side of the joint.

And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.


The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
later. Is that clear at a all? LOL


Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
now...



Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
the self centering one. ;~)

I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.




--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote in :

On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags
for the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you
only have to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally
clean, as removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered
about but you don't have to clean the big filter.

I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
these things work?


These went up in price since I ordered... um I guess it was 3 years ago.
Still, at $6.50 a bag it's still not bad.

http://www.vacuumbags.com/rihiefwdmian.html

These attach to the suction inlet and trap the dust in the bag. It's
not like the shop vac paper filter that goes over the foam. The
original filter stays in place.

Puckdropper

Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in :

On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags
for the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you
only have to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally
clean, as removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered
about but you don't have to clean the big filter.

I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
these things work?


These went up in price since I ordered... um I guess it was 3 years
ago. Still, at $6.50 a bag it's still not bad.

http://www.vacuumbags.com/rihiefwdmian.html

I'd say that depends on what you are using them for. I pretty much stopped
using my canister vac because the corrugated paper filter clogs up almoat
immediately if you are sucking fine dust. The ones like you linked work
well but my drum sander fills them in a very short time, at least one, maybe
two per hour. Shame they can't be (easily) emptied and reused. Since they
can't, I'll stick with my dust collector.

Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
filters.

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
don't have to clean the big filter.

I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use?

I use the Ridgid brand filter bags from my local Home Depot. They end up
costing about $9 a piece, but each bag lasts a long time:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-Hi...for-RIDGID-12-
Gal-16-Gal-Vacuum-VF3502/100390230

Since I started using the filter bags I haven't changed the pleated filter
in years. The filter bags work great for fine dust like that from a sander,
drywall dust, and even COLD ash from the wood stove.

If you change the bag before it gets completely full, you can usually get
the bag out without spilling the dust all over. If you wait too long it
gets too big to remove from the tank without tearing. Don't ask me how I
know.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 8:14:04 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

OK... no kidding... that makes perfect sense. I always thought that the mortises had to be nearly perfect for the actual Domino biscuit to work. Now I understand. This is kind of an "AHA!!" moment for me as I couldn't figure out how anyone could get multiple dominoes places on the same surface without the kind of accuracy that would make Krenov blush. Makes more sense, now.



Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
their machines as much as I do.

I have no doubt. I have never heard of that little "fudge factor" that would make the tool imminently more usable. Doubtful most Domino owners have either.

I don't expect the tool to always
perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
later. Is that clear at a all? LOL

Read it a couple of times, but once I got the squirrel moving, my brain caught up with it. Makes perfect sense.


Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
the self centering one. ;~)

I used a clamp on model of the dowel drilling guide, one that had a long flange on it so that it could be secured to the work with a squeeze clamp. It was a nice shop fixture, but undoubtedly we had alignment problems as you described. My solution (so kill me already...) was about the same as your Domino work around. One side of a glue up was drilled with the manufacturer's intended 1/4" dowels. The other I drilled with a slightly bigger hole to get that same fudge factor.

Not all that elegant, but it worked.

Robert

Jack wrote:

Excellent post Leon, with a lot of great info. I'm not a dowel fan
myself, and also have the same dowel jig you have that I inherited.
Used it a few times, not accurate enough for dowels. A prime attraction
of the Domino, among many, is the joints can adjust a bit, so perfect
precision is not needed. Dowels must be absolutely perfect, something
that is incompatible with custom woodwork, imo.

You got it Jack! :-).







On 2/24/2016 9:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
holes for dowels.

You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.

But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.

http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600

or

http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
Germany, and all tools made there)

The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.

No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
the Domino's performance.

That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
on the mating side of the joint.

And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.


The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
later. Is that clear at a all? LOL


Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
now...



Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
the self centering one. ;~)

I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.