On 11/20/2015 3:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 2:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in
each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!


Bill, he was trying to demonstrate playing in 5/4 time which is 5 beats
per measure. Most modern music is in 4/4 time, four beat per measure,
which it is commonly referred to as.... wait for it.... "common time"
designated my a C in place of a fractional 4/4 at the head of a bar of
sheet music. Probably the most famous 5/4 song is "Take Five" by Dave
Brubeck. Another pop song that everyone knows is the theme song from
Mission Impossible. These are both examples of a 5/4 song that sound
like odd time. They sound natural and "danceable" to the average
listener. Great modern composers like Sting make odd time songs like
these the fact that they are in odd time doesn't even enter one's mind,
until one tries to clap along. :-)

Hearing great odd time songs that flow so easily and groove so
intrinsically can often cruelly lead a musician into thinking they are
easy to play and easy to create.

Which leads us to the guy in this video. He thought it was easy and
it's so deceptive that it fooled him even while he was attempting to
play it. :-) The whole deal with the video, the funny part, is that
he's playing what he *thinks* is a 5/4 groove, but he's playing it in
4/4 time and he can't seem to grasp that fact. It's akin to laying out
studs on a wall on the half meter (19.2") marks on your tape measure
instead of the 16" marks. You may have laid out 7 studs for an 8'
plate, but that last stud is going to end up on the next 8 footer.

Basically when this 'expert' is playing his "5/4 groove" he's playing it
in 4/4 time, but keeps messing up his counting. He keeps trying to
count to 5, but his pattern repeats after beat 4. You can hear when his
brain finally stops fighting his hands and he starts counting "2-3-4-5,
2-3-4-5, 2-3-4-5." His brain thinks, "Hey I got it now, I'm playing in
5 because my count is getting to 5 every time." :-D

https://vimeo.com/6971656

Classic "Nuff said" ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:39:49 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 11:11 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood



we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
craftsman level :-)
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-8, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill

hah, just wait until you start getting welding or metal machining, that's a black hole you never come out of.

been, there, hell, still there now.

Al

On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, wrote:
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.


Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
it home.

I'm stealing that.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John

woodchucker wrote in
:

I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I
won't mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to
keep the program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked
outside of the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of
everything, but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from
thing to thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any
of the disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make
it better.
I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
and learning the ropes.

I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work
for the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They
were not practical.

I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for
other basic reasons.

Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not
well grounded.



That's why I say formal education is not the path to true intelligence,
merely one of the steps along the way.

I also believe that after a certain point, formal education holds you
back.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, wrote:
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.


Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
it home.

I'm stealing that.
No need to steal it - I placed it in the public domain a few years
ago.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, wrote:
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.


Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
it home.

I'm stealing that.
Just preface it with "a smart guy I met on the internet said"

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
not necessarily give correct dimensions.

If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
tool you use to make it.

You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
with the dimensions you want.

If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.

There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
to create the drawing.

When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
bother making it to scale.

I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
poor measuring, not the drawing.

John

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:39:49 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
craftsman level :-)

with this addition

when you learn to fix them so no one can even tell you have reached
craftsman

i have heard an expert is one that has no more mistakes left to make
experts have made them all

On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

was heard to mutter:

The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.

A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that
mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams

On 11/21/2015 9:45 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
not necessarily give correct dimensions.

If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
tool you use to make it.

Well if the drawing is not to scale, the drawing is not right. You did
say you did not do true scale. Or do you consider true scale to be full
scale?




You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
with the dimensions you want.

If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.

I may not be making myself clear about the advantages to using a drawing
program vs. pencil and paper drawing. The advantage to a drawing
program is that it shows 3D at any angle and can show whether the
internal parts fit together correctly. That is not often possible with
a hand drawn drawing, especially if you are not visualizing how the
pieces fit together when you draw it.
Additionally I use a program to import my pieces from a computer drawing
into an optimization program. It is a huge time saver and increases
accuracy dramatically.




There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
to create the drawing.

That is correct and in fact I could not tell you what scale my printed
drawing are when they print but they are precisely to "some" scale. The
scale does not matter as long as everything is to the same scale. But if
you are not drawing to scale the drawing can easily be deceiving and
dimensions put in by you may not show a problem. With a drawing program
the dimensions are automatically calculated between the points you
choose and will immediately tell you if the part is the correct size.
If you don't use a CAD or drawing program this is very hard to appreciate.




When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
bother making it to scale.

Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in the
drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up what the
dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations can be
entered.



I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
poor measuring, not the drawing.

No doubt.

John

On 11/21/2015 9:46 AM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.


Big time I do the joinery in the drawings. I draw every thing precisely
as it will be built "except" where I put in Domino tenons. Because
those can be accurately placed after the pieces are cut there is no need
to draw them in place, at least the way I do them.
Adding Dominos in a drawing does not change how the pieces will be cut,
let me put that another way. I know exactly what size the Domino is and
when I draw I make an allowance for the room it needs on the component.
Adding Dominos to a drawing along with two mortises for each is very
tedious. Now having said that perhaps Sketchup Pro will more quickly
draw those mortises using the "Solid Tools". You don't get full use of
Solid Tools with the free version.

On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.


;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
can be entered.

I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
size, so they can take accurate measurements).

I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.

John

On 11/21/2015 10:55 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
can be entered.

I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
size, so they can take accurate measurements).

Screw boat builders. ;~) Think Empire state building and bigger.
FWIW in my formal drafting classes, mechanical and architectural the
drawings had damn well better measure to scale to the dimensions drawn.

If you get buy with sketches and that works for you that is great. I'll
dare say that all drawings for building on a professional level are
drawn to scale.




I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.

John


No, you don't get it, but unless you use drawing programs you probably
will not. That is OK.

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.

John McCoy wrote:

I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.

I pretty much get what you are saying as I did the same thing for
years...make a rough sketch, add dimensions. If, eg, I wanted to make a box
24" x 10" x 3" it made no difference if the long side was 8x the shortest in
my sketch, what counted were the dimensions.

I still do that sometimes but I also use SketchUp. It does, of course, give
me an accurate drawing but just as importantly (to me, at least) is the fact
that it gives me an accurate idea of how things are going to look. It also
lets me easily play with variations or modify. And, using my drawing, I can
do a material takeoff and and a cutting list. It's handy

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:04:23 -0500, Casper
wrote:

was heard to mutter:

The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.

A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that
mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams


True that, too.

In article , says...

-MIKE- writes:


Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
as well as teach.

In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
alike.

Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.

I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
I did in four years at Georgia Tech.

Academia has long since gone off in its own direction that has little to
do with life outside of academia.

You haven't seen a new hire with a computer science degree from a highly
regarded university struggling to write a simple program.

On 11/21/15 3:31 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
I did in four years at Georgia Tech.


Either way, if you graduated from GT in engineering, you have my respect.
Not exactly a basket weaving school.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article ,
says...

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

I was an "expert" on one of those sites for a while. Didn't want to be,
wasn't my idea, my boss got invited to be the "expert" and didn't have
time to do it so he told me to do it. Aero engineering or programming
I'd be fine with--been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Art,
antiques, and jewelry, not a clue, and that's what he had me doing. I
told him I didn't have a clue, he didn't care, then he was surprised
when they figured out that I didn't have a clue and pulled his account.

On 11/21/2015 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill


Being a little slow, I finally realized that BS did not mean BS. ;~)

I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)

On 11/21/2015 2:23 PM, dadiOH wrote:
John McCoy wrote:

I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.

I pretty much get what you are saying as I did the same thing for
years...make a rough sketch, add dimensions. If, eg, I wanted to make a box
24" x 10" x 3" it made no difference if the long side was 8x the shortest in
my sketch, what counted were the dimensions.

I still do that sometimes but I also use SketchUp. It does, of course, give
me an accurate drawing but just as importantly (to me, at least) is the fact
that it gives me an accurate idea of how things are going to look. It also
lets me easily play with variations or modify. And, using my drawing, I can
do a material takeoff and and a cutting list. It's handy





And I will add, I don't do drawings to cut a board to length. ;~)

Simple stuff no need. Hundreds of parts with dado's that interlock in
the x,y,z axis I better have detailed drawings to insure the dado's,
rabbet, and half laps get cut correctly and in the right place.

On 11/21/2015 2:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.



I'll call you on using only your brain to keep up with hundreds of parts
on a project.

Leon wrote:
On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.


;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.



I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with
a carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E
drawing set.

--
GW Ross

Why isn't 'phonetically' spelled that
way? --Steven Wright

On 11/21/2015 3:49 PM, G. Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check
your
thoughts.

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.


;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.



I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with a
carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E drawing set.



Yeah! We were fancy though, we used the mechanical pencil with the
rotary desk sharpener. We only used the India ink for the borders. Our
drawings failed if the pencil lines did not shine.

I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early 70's.

I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
for a loooong time. ;!)

OH! I still have my electric eraser too!

Leon wrote:
On 11/21/2015 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill


Being a little slow, I finally realized that BS did not mean BS. ;~)

I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)
Yes, I was thinking of you!

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:14:36 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.

For trivial projects, perhaps.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:45:31 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/21/2015 2:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.



I'll call you on using only your brain to keep up with hundreds of parts
on a project.

Each with half a dozen cuts.

On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill

I just built, I had it in my head.
Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.

I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings and
sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material loss.
And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or get
to a feature.

--
Jeff

On 11/21/2015 5:22 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/21/2015 3:49 PM, G. Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not
necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check
your
thoughts.

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from
different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.


;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.



I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with a
carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E drawing
set.



Yeah! We were fancy though, we used the mechanical pencil with the
rotary desk sharpener. We only used the India ink for the borders. Our
drawings failed if the pencil lines did not shine.

You talking about the pencil sharpener that you put the pencil in, and
move the pencil around and it sharpens it? I have one of those. I like
the old style pencils for layouts When I can't see my knife lines, I'll
switch to one of those and put a new point on my pencil.

I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early
70's.

I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
for a loooong time. ;!)

OH! I still have my electric eraser too!



--
Jeff

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 11/21/2015 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and
materials (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does
not imply that the drawing created needs to be complete, not at
all--just adequate for its purpose...you don't get paid for the
drawing (unless you do, and that's a different discussion).

Bill


Being a little slow, I finally realized that BS did not mean BS. ;~)

I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)

I does sorta work for BS, though. It's a common problem with track plan
dreaming. A curve looks absolutely beautiful on the track plan, then
you build it to scale and find out it's actually 12" radius and you need
an absolute minimum of 18"!

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

woodchucker wrote:
On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill

I just built, I had it in my head.
Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
The "design phase" we're talking about is designed to keep just
that (expensive thing) from occurring!


I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings
and sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material
loss.
And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or
get to a feature.
Yes, last time I did drywall work, I drew pencil lines on the walls and
divided it up into 30 numbered parts, so I could keep track of how much
mud I had on each part of the walls, my tape defects, etc. I recall how
thankful I was in the spring when, I resumed my work, that I had my
"list" (because, covered with mud, they all looked the same!)

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:37:19 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:14:36 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John



I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.

For trivial projects, perhaps.
And exactly what did the craftsmen of yesteryear do, before computers
and CAD??? They did the calculations in their heads, and drew
"diagrams" showing how it was to go together. A lot looked like
leonardo Davinci's drawings 0 dimensioned but not accurately scaled.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:41:36 -0500, Bill
wrote:

woodchucker wrote:
On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).

Bill

I just built, I had it in my head.
Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
The "design phase" we're talking about is designed to keep just
that (expensive thing) from occurring!


I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings
and sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material
loss.
And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or
get to a feature.
Yes, last time I did drywall work, I drew pencil lines on the walls and
divided it up into 30 numbered parts, so I could keep track of how much
mud I had on each part of the walls, my tape defects, etc. I recall how
thankful I was in the spring when, I resumed my work, that I had my
"list" (because, covered with mud, they all looked the same!)

Why didn't you just write the information on the walls? ;-)/2