On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 6:45:14 AM UTC-6, wrote:

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=welding+apron
Can't buy the leather for that price to make one

Craigslist find: 4-5 yrs ago, I bought out most of a retiring upholsterer's supplies, a sewing machine and 25 full size hides for $1200. That amounts to the hides costing about $20 a piece. Haven't used all of them, yet, but they are too nice to use as aprons.

Sonny

On 11/26/2015 9:42 AM, Jack wrote:

Aprons keep most of the sawdust off but they also hold the tools a
cabinet maker needs with him all the time. Besides holding your pencil
so you don't misplace it, I keep my safety glasses in one pocket, tape
in another, small tri-square in another, Still have one left for my
remote dust control when Santa comes, and my calculator and note pad
in the larger chest pocket.

This Rockler apron is the first one I had that can do all that
comfortably. This has cut my old age woodworking time by at least a
factor of 3, because most of my shop time lately has been spent looking
for each of those "misplaced items".

Now, first thing I do is put on my apron, and I can spend my time more
usefully searching for other misplaced items I just laid down somewhere.


Ditto ... always wear a Rockler Apron in the shop (have worn three out
so far), less often on a job site.

My paternal grandfather gave me one when I was five years old and
_helping_ him in his shop. Old habits are hard to break (used a fold up
rule, just like him, until I was in my forties).


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/26/15 11:50 AM, Swingman wrote:
I carry my pencil behind my ear as I have since I started out.

I was issued ears that are the non-hold variety, so I carry a pencil
above my ear, stuck up underneath my hat brim ... just don't take
off the hat for any reason during the day.


The ear worked for me until glasses entered the equation.
Now, it gets tucked up into the cap right in front of the ear.
I'd like a more foolproof pencil holder. Perhaps one of those magnets
that clip on your shirt for holding reading glasses... maybe that would
hold a steel mechanical pencil.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

krw wrote in
:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have
only used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on
these wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.


I consider a pencil sharpener an essential shop tool. They cost no more
than $20, and I love the manual "school" style (Based on the Boston L)
myself. I often use it when the pencil gets dull, just a quick little
twist or 3 and the pencil's ready to use again.

That's also the lathe. I wonder if there's a pointy stick compendium
somewhere on the Internet?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

As my dad grew teeth on these pencils, as did I - the clay that binds
the graphite within ages. As it gets old, the pencils tend to crack
the leads. Drop one and just maybe never get a point on it again.

Moisture - keeps them going. Not water, just 30-50%.

Martin

On 11/26/2015 10:01 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/26/2015 9:19 AM, Jack wrote:
On 11/25/2015 1:37 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:21:12 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:

I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)

Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a
box
of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the
shop.

I buy 10/$1 .7mm or .9mm mechanical pencils and scatter so many around
the house there is always at least one within sight. ;-)

That's what most everyone does I suspect. Standard pencils are hard to
keep sharp, hard to keep a point on w/o breaking. I've only had the
Rockler for a month or so and it is great. I've tried lots of different
pencils, including mechanical ones, for the shop, and this is a winner I
think. It feels really substantial in your hand, has cross hatching
where your finger grips it. The lead is think and the point stays pointy
longer than other pencils. That sort of stuff that makes it nice. I've
read that the tip breaks easily if dropped, but it sure doesn't feel
like it would.



I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils that
last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those free
pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have only
used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on these
wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point for
certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

I have a 'monster' Blue school one in the workroom next to my office.
In the shop I have a low cost plug in gear grinder, but it works.

Pencils started to change when plastic was introduced into the clay.
The clay % determines the hardness and binds.

The big blue one sharpens the thumb size to normal pencil size.

Martin

On 11/26/2015 1:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
krw wrote in
:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have
only used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on
these wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.


I consider a pencil sharpener an essential shop tool. They cost no more
than $20, and I love the manual "school" style (Based on the Boston L)
myself. I often use it when the pencil gets dull, just a quick little
twist or 3 and the pencil's ready to use again.

That's also the lathe. I wonder if there's a pointy stick compendium
somewhere on the Internet?

Puckdropper

On 11/26/2015 1:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
krw wrote in
:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have
only used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on
these wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.


I consider a pencil sharpener an essential shop tool. They cost no more
than $20, and I love the manual "school" style (Based on the Boston L)
myself. I often use it when the pencil gets dull, just a quick little
twist or 3 and the pencil's ready to use again.

I have an old electric Panasonic sharpener in the shop.

krw wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/26/2015 9:19 AM, Jack wrote:
On 11/25/2015 1:37 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:21:12 -0500, Jack
wrote:

On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:

I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I
don't want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)

Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes
with a box of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really
nice for the shop.

I buy 10/$1 .7mm or .9mm mechanical pencils and scatter so many
around the house there is always at least one within sight. ;-)

That's what most everyone does I suspect. Standard pencils are
hard to keep sharp, hard to keep a point on w/o breaking. I've
only had the Rockler for a month or so and it is great. I've tried
lots of different pencils, including mechanical ones, for the shop,
and this is a winner I think. It feels really substantial in your
hand, has cross hatching where your finger grips it. The lead is
think and the point stays pointy longer than other pencils. That
sort of stuff that makes it nice. I've read that the tip breaks
easily if dropped, but it sure doesn't feel
like it would.



I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free
pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have only
used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on these
wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.

The way to get a really fime point on a pencil, either mechanical or wood,
is to do as old time negative retouchers did...

1. get about 1/2" or more of lead out

2. fold over a small piece of fine - #320, say - wet or dry paper

3. insert lead at fold, press down on paper at either side of the lead

4. move lead in and out of the paper, turning from time to time

A bit of a pain but you will wind up with a point like a needle. Fragile
though

In article , says...

krw wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/26/2015 9:19 AM, Jack wrote:
On 11/25/2015 1:37 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:21:12 -0500, Jack
wrote:

On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:

I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I
don't want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)

Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes
with a box of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really
nice for the shop.

I buy 10/$1 .7mm or .9mm mechanical pencils and scatter so many
around the house there is always at least one within sight. ;-)

That's what most everyone does I suspect. Standard pencils are
hard to keep sharp, hard to keep a point on w/o breaking. I've
only had the Rockler for a month or so and it is great. I've tried
lots of different pencils, including mechanical ones, for the shop,
and this is a winner I think. It feels really substantial in your
hand, has cross hatching where your finger grips it. The lead is
think and the point stays pointy longer than other pencils. That
sort of stuff that makes it nice. I've read that the tip breaks
easily if dropped, but it sure doesn't feel
like it would.



I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free
pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have only
used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on these
wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.

The way to get a really fime point on a pencil, either mechanical or wood,
is to do as old time negative retouchers did...

1. get about 1/2" or more of lead out

2. fold over a small piece of fine - #320, say - wet or dry paper

3. insert lead at fold, press down on paper at either side of the lead

4. move lead in and out of the paper, turning from time to time

A bit of a pain but you will wind up with a point like a needle. Fragile
though

Draftsmans' lead pointer works in a similar manner, only more
convenient.

Is the Panasonic a mechanical pencil sharpener ? wow.

I have a nice eraser motor drive system. Great in the shop.

Martin

On 11/27/2015 8:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/26/2015 1:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
krw wrote in
:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have
only used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on
these wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.


I consider a pencil sharpener an essential shop tool. They cost no more
than $20, and I love the manual "school" style (Based on the Boston L)
myself. I often use it when the pencil gets dull, just a quick little
twist or 3 and the pencil's ready to use again.

I have an old electric Panasonic sharpener in the shop.

On 11/27/2015 9:35 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Is the Panasonic a mechanical pencil sharpener ? wow.

No, standard electric.


I have a nice eraser motor drive system. Great in the shop.

I have an electric eraser from my drawing days. I keep a plastic eraser
on hand for the shop.




Martin

On 11/27/2015 8:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/26/2015 1:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
krw wrote in
:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:01:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils
that last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those
free pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have
only used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on
these wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point
for certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

Use an xacto knife.


I consider a pencil sharpener an essential shop tool. They cost no more
than $20, and I love the manual "school" style (Based on the Boston L)
myself. I often use it when the pencil gets dull, just a quick little
twist or 3 and the pencil's ready to use again.

I have an old electric Panasonic sharpener in the shop.

On 11/26/2015 12:56 PM, Swingman wrote:

Ditto ... always wear a Rockler Apron in the shop (have worn three out
so far), less often on a job site.

I've always worn an apron in my shop, but out side, doing carpentry
work, I always used a tool belt that holds nails, hammers, and other
stuff I rarely use in the shop.

This Rockler design is the best I've had, the pockets are just right,
and it has the wide, over the shoulder cross back harness instead of the
over the neck one that digs into your neck. This makes it much more
comfy, but a bit harder to put on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/26/2015 11:01 AM, Leon wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils that
last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those free
pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have only
used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on these
wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point for
certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

The Rockler Cabinet makers mechanical pencil comes with a sharpener.
The sharpener only sharpens the lead. It has a little hole that the
lead just fits in, and a twist or two and the point is needle sharp.

Also, when I said I've read people complain that the point breaks when
you drop the pencil, I didn't mean the lead. Of course the lead will
break if you drop it on the point, I meant they are saying the screw on
nib, or whatever you call it, will break. I haven't dropped mine yet,
and will try to make a _point_ not to drop it, for whatever good that
will do. I still highly recommend this pencil to any woodworker,
particularly in a cabinet making environment.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

In article , says...

On 11/26/2015 11:01 AM, Leon wrote:

I would probably switch out to one of my drafting pencils but my wood
supplier gives me wooden pencils, these are actually great pencils that
last a long time. Apparently there is such a demand for those free
pencils that they now sell them. I have 37 unsharpened and have only
used about 4 in the past 3~5 years. The leads don't break on these
wooden pencils. ;~)
IMHO if you can't sharpen a pencil you cant get a fine enough point for
certain marks, .7mm is not fine enough for me much of the time.

The Rockler Cabinet makers mechanical pencil comes with a sharpener.
The sharpener only sharpens the lead. It has a little hole that the
lead just fits in, and a twist or two and the point is needle sharp.

Also, when I said I've read people complain that the point breaks when
you drop the pencil, I didn't mean the lead. Of course the lead will
break if you drop it on the point, I meant they are saying the screw on
nib, or whatever you call it, will break. I haven't dropped mine yet,
and will try to make a _point_ not to drop it, for whatever good that
will do. I still highly recommend this pencil to any woodworker,
particularly in a cabinet making environment.

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 11:56:50 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Ditto ... always wear a Rockler Apron in the shop (have worn three out
so far), less often on a job site.

My paternal grandfather gave me one when I was five years old and
_helping_ him in his shop. Old habits are hard to break (used a fold up
rule, just like him, until I was in my forties).

They are indeed hard to break. When I was finally allowed to use tools, I was advised to purchase a heavy duty canvas waist type apron. It held my tape, a ton of nails, had a pencil slot, and room for my tri square. My hammer was slipped in behind one of the ties, and then later, one of the guys showed me how to make a hanger from heavy wire.

Leather tool bags followed, and my "teacher" advised me that if I didn't have my bags on (with tools at the ready) then I must be a laborer, so he would make me sweep or carry wood. So I wore my bags ALL the time.

Now I have two sets of bags I wear. One for trim work to hold the necessaries for that work, and another set for demo/framing/siding/cornice.

Never became one with a baker style apron, and have tried more than once. Creature of habit, I guess.

Robert

On 11/28/2015 8:28 PM, wrote:

Leather tool bags followed, and my "teacher" advised me that if I didn't have my bags on (with tools at the ready) then I must be a laborer, so he would make me sweep or carry wood. So I wore my bags ALL the time.

Now I have two sets of bags I wear. One for trim work to hold the necessaries for that work, and another set for demo/framing/siding/cornice.

Never became one with a baker style apron, and have tried more than once. Creature of habit, I guess.

Leather tool bags you wear are what carpenters, electricians and whatnot
wear working on a construction site. Cabinetmakers working inside in a
cabinet shop generally wear "baker style" aprons, designed specifically
for the wood shop. I reckon some are cross-dressers, but it would be
somewhat rare I'd think to see the roles reversed. Perhaps a carpenter
building built-ins on site might wear a cabinet makers apron,
particularly if that was his main job.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
..9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 15:43:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.

I'm betting David Rees would vehemently disagree :-/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VkSmaFAuaH4

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)

To kind of get back to the subject, an apron for that tool buyer made
of kevlar of course.

On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.

--
Jeff

On 11/29/2015 5:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.

I say smaller than the rockler since my memory had those at 3mm last
time I looked, not 2mm.

--
Jeff

In article , says...

On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

Don't look for "pencil". Look for "lead holder".

http://www.dickblick.com/products/koh-i-noor-toison-dor-lead-holder/

http://www.staples.com/Staedtler-Mar...d-Holder-2-mm-
Pack-of-2-/product_1722242

Leads available (note--"Turquoise" is the brand name, not the color):
http://www.dickblick.com/products/prismacolor-turquoise-leads/

Sharpener:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/staedtler-mars-lead-pointer/
http://www.dickblick.com/products/st...andpaper-lead-
pointer/

This is all old-school pre-CAD drafting equipment.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.

On 11/29/2015 2:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


At a drafting supply store 2mm mechanical pencils are pretty common,
basically a regular sized wood pencil led.

With the right feel they are pretty hard to beat when using one all day
long and using up a lead or two each week.

In the shop I only make slight 1/4" marks with an occasional line for a
jigsaw or bandsaw cut so free wooden ones are what I use. I have 5~6
2mm mechanical pencils somewhere in my drafting equipment box.

On 11/29/2015 4:32 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 15:43:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.

I'm betting David Rees would vehemently disagree :-/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VkSmaFAuaH4

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)



LOL, I had forgotten about that video.

On 11/29/2015 4:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.


That is my sharpener! and a few of the pencils look like some of mine too.

In article ,
says...

On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.

You suck g.

They don't make those all-metal lead pointers anymore. The plastic ones
aren't heavy enough to stay put without being hand-held or clamped and
when you clamp them they tend to warp and drag. You've got well over a
hundred bucks worth of stuff there.

Spalted Walt wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 15:43:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.
I'm betting David Rees would vehemently disagree :-/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VkSmaFAuaH4

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)



That's a great video for this thread. As a matter of coincidence
(perhaps seeded by my recent rediscovery of some old rusty chisels from
an auction), I was considering how some (beginner) folks might be
well-advised to concentrate on how "metal cuts wood". If one learns how
to sharpen and the properties of wood, I think that this will go a long
way. For instance, to my mind, a functional shoulder plane could be
constructed on the cheap (whereas a set of 3 from LV might run $600..).
All this being said, this does not imply that learning how "metal cuts
wood" can be learned without some effort...

Bill wrote in news:n3g27q01a89
@news6.newsguy.com:


That's a great video for this thread. As a matter of coincidence
(perhaps seeded by my recent rediscovery of some old rusty chisels from
an auction), I was considering how some (beginner) folks might be
well-advised to concentrate on how "metal cuts wood". If one learns how
to sharpen and the properties of wood, I think that this will go a long
way. For instance, to my mind, a functional shoulder plane could be
constructed on the cheap (whereas a set of 3 from LV might run $600..).
All this being said, this does not imply that learning how "metal cuts
wood" can be learned without some effort...


Have you read "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee? That's
basically how he handled things.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/29/2015 6:31 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think
.9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but
sharpens to a needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.

You suck g.

They don't make those all-metal lead pointers anymore. The plastic ones
aren't heavy enough to stay put without being hand-held or clamped and
when you clamp them they tend to warp and drag. You've got well over a
hundred bucks worth of stuff there.



Thanks :-)
I didn't know how much it was worth, but I like them. The sharpener is
the rolls royce of sharpeners for sure. It is sooooo smooth, and a
pleasure to use.

--
Jeff

Puckdropper wrote:
Bill wrote in news:n3g27q01a89
@news6.newsguy.com:

That's a great video for this thread. As a matter of coincidence
(perhaps seeded by my recent rediscovery of some old rusty chisels from
an auction), I was considering how some (beginner) folks might be
well-advised to concentrate on how "metal cuts wood". If one learns how
to sharpen and the properties of wood, I think that this will go a long
way. For instance, to my mind, a functional shoulder plane could be
constructed on the cheap (whereas a set of 3 from LV might run $600..).
All this being said, this does not imply that learning how "metal cuts
wood" can be learned without some effort...

Have you read "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee?
I read it as a library book about 12 years back. I just recently read
Chris Pye's book, "Materials,..." which did an excellent job of teaching
me more about sharpening (it has more emphasis on carving gouges, I
expect). Both books probably have a lot in common, but I was probably
paying much more attention to the subtleties this time around--maybe
because I own alot more gouges and planes now, and at this point I have
a bit more experience. I think everyone who is "afraid" of sharpening
should read Lee's book that you recommended.

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

Bill


That's
basically how he handled things.

Puckdropper

Bill wrote:


I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack
of silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun,
if it works out.


You'll enjoy that effort Bill. It's rewarding to see it clean up as you go,
but mostly so when you see the primary bevel cleaned up and sharpened enough
to almost be a mirror.

--

-Mike-

On 11/29/2015 5:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and
these.
http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR
The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to
circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is
made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years
ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but
they are great.

These are not smaller, Rockler is also 2mm lead, although the pen size
looks thinner. The Rockler "looks" a bit more substantial, and the
sharpener is way smaller, about a square inch in size, and only the lead
goes in the sharping hole. You extend the lead out of the pen a bit to
sharpen it, then extract it back to working length. Otherwise, those
also look like a good mechanical pencil for a wood worker.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/29/2015 6:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Don't look for "pencil". Look for "lead holder".

Aha, never thought of that one. This is more like it, I like the 2m
lead, that is a good size for a woodworker. The koh-i-noor lead holder
looks OK, but more designed for the draftsman than a cabinet maker, as
it appears thinner, doesn't have the cross hatched metal finger grip.
Also, it is $8, the sharpener is $8, and the lead is $11. That's $27
for what Rockwell sells you for $9.

One more thing, while I'm not a fan of Rockler because they seem
overpriced for a lot of stuff, I do recognize they are the only
woodworkers shop in my area, that I can walk in and put hands on stuff I
want, and they carry lots of specialty stuff you can't get locally.
Because of this, I do buy stuff from them, as long as it is good
quality, which most of their stuff is, and is not so overpriced I'd be
stupid to buy it. Usually I buy there when a 20% sale gets the prices
down to a reasonable amount. This cabinetmakers pencil, specifically
made for cabinetmakers is a good example of something you can't find
anywhere else.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
http://www.dickblick.com/products/koh-i-noor-toison-dor-lead-holder/

http://www.staples.com/Staedtler-Mar...d-Holder-2-mm-
Pack-of-2-/product_1722242

Leads available (note--"Turquoise" is the brand name, not the color):
http://www.dickblick.com/products/prismacolor-turquoise-leads/

Sharpener:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/staedtler-mars-lead-pointer/
http://www.dickblick.com/products/st...andpaper-lead-
pointer/

This is all old-school pre-CAD drafting equipment.

On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/29/2015 5:32 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 15:43:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy
duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly
the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that
reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.

I'm betting David Rees would vehemently disagree :-/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VkSmaFAuaH4

Good catch. That guy used to be on one of my cable stations, I'd
forgotten about him.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/30/2015 8:50 AM, Jack wrote:
On 11/29/2015 6:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Don't look for "pencil". Look for "lead holder".

Aha, never thought of that one. This is more like it, I like the 2m
lead, that is a good size for a woodworker.

Exactly, the 2mm leads are thicker until they get down to the point.
With .5 and .7mm leads the lead breaks more easily.

Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:32:33 +0000
Spalted Walt wrote:

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)

shop looks too clean
i do not trust it


i think he is wasting time on hb or #2 and should be using hh

hh requires more forcee and usually means that you get a lighter mark
that is easier to sand offf

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 3:43 PM Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Subject:
Beginners Syndrome

On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good
ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh-
I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at
Staples.

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and
Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got.
At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at
Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think .9mm
lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but sharpens to a
needle point.

The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy duty,
and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly the
purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that reviewed it,
they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.


Yes, the 2mm leads are useful...

I still use my drafting board with parallel straight edge, triangles, etc.,
and have no problem finding 2 mm leads... a local store stockes them. Here
are a few sources I found via Google:

http://www.cutting-mats.net/alvin-2mm-pencil-lead.html
http://www.amazon.com/SAN3073-Prisma.../dp/B0017LROAA
http://www.utrechtart.com/Prismacolo...010974.utrecht

John

"Electric Comet" wrote in message ...

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:32:33 +0000
Spalted Walt wrote:

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)

shop looks too clean
i do not trust it

i think he is wasting time on hb or #2 and should be using hh

hh requires more forcee and usually means that you get a lighter mark
that is easier to sand offf

For me, its more difficult to sand off the impression of a visible 2H mark
than to erase a visible #1 or 2B mark.
In drafting (preCAD), we were taught to use the darker #1 or B for reliable
blueprinting.

HB or #2 were acceptable, but HH or #3 risked tearing the cheap paper to get
a decent line.

I also just want to point out this woodworking "Beginners Syndrome" thread
has evolved into the finer points of drafting pencils.

Scott in Dunedin FL