I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill


That describes a great number here.

On 11/20/2015 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill


That describes a great number here.
I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one thing,
but buying materials is another.

When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
wood, finish, handles, etc. He then see something similar for the same
price at a local store.

His choice is, buy the similar item, or try to build it himself.
Because he is unsure of his skill, he is most likely to buy the similar
item, rather the messing up it up and have a couple of hundred dollars
worth of expensive firewood, or an unfinished piece of furniture sitting
in his garage forever and still buying the similar piece.

I have been there done that.

Keith Nuttle wrote in
:

I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
thing, but buying materials is another.

When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
wood, finish, handles, etc.

That is certainly a big part of it in our hobby, maybe
not so much so in others.

But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.

Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.

John

On 11/20/2015 8:34 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote in
:

I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
thing, but buying materials is another.

When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
wood, finish, handles, etc.

That is certainly a big part of it in our hobby, maybe
not so much so in others.

But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.

Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.

John


FWIW I began my serious woodworking when I was 25, in 1979 I used
common 2x4, 2x6, 1x8 pine. CHEAP! I did mill the 2x's to have square
corners.
Once I got better I moved up to the hard woods about 2 years later.
We still actually have a small pine shelf unit that I built way back when.
That said I have never seen furniture, that I could buy cheaper than I
could build, that I would want in my house.

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; )

Yep, not just poetic that the initials are also descriptive of its
manifestation.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:20:27 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill

And then for us the awesome sight of cheap woodworking tools at rummage sales.

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood

Electric Comet wrote in news:n2ngjg$dns$1
@dont-email.me:

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood

My favorite concept in building model railroads is that of the "chainsaw
layout." It's a model railroad that you build with no other purpose than
to be a learning experience. Go, screw up, make mistakes. Make ugly
holes in the table if that's what it takes.

When you get to the point you've learned what you need to, take a
chainsaw to it and cut it out. Start fresh.

You can apply that concept to just about anything. I do it often,
sometimes I call it "iteration 1" and repeat the process 3-4 times until
I have something I'm happy with.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/19/15 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's
wrote that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should
say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
little with the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of
hovering over the new Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog,
that I just received, like I usually do (they are rather out of my
budget anyway), I scanned it more quickly without hovering,
determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people,
in various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from
"Beginners Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might
possibly know someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer
and a nail and ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it!
When one has work that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble
excuse!), it's all too easy to fall into the BS trap! I think I need
to learn how to cut a pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6
slices...okay.

Bill

I think I still have a box full of woodworking books, from our move.
Whenever I'd get a new tool (lathe!) I would get books and read up on
techniques and safety, etc. There's a healthy amount to it, but yes,
one can get immersed in reading and learning about it so much that they
never end up doing it.

Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
instead of reading about it.

Nothing wrong with learning by reading/watching. But learning by doing
seems to be a much more fruitful and enjoyable endeavor.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Well... I think we all have things we intend to do, and just don't get around to doing them. For many, buy the accoutrements is the most fun, learning to use them, not so much.

I think too, how long it took me to develop fluency with the tools I use all the time, and honestly, to use them well took years. So I sympathize with the guy that dreams of being a cabinet builder, gets inspired by watching Krenov video, looks at Karl or Leon's work, or looks at a magazine and says to himself "hey, I think I could do that". Sadly, they don't understand that it isn't the tools that make the craftsman, but the years spent using them to gain proficiency.

Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year. Sometimes a keepsake box for good measure. Second, I am surprised by the industrious few that do great work with very inexpensive tools and at that, damn few of them. Hand me down saws used with homemade guides, chisels that need to be sharpened every 20 minutes of use, no pneumatic guns (not even a brad nailer), just a few clamps, no drill/driver, etc., and yet they have a ball. And as mentioned, some really turn out some nice work. Their only downfall is that it takes them months of their spare time to do what it takes a pro to do in a day.

I think is like the guy that likes to play golf that reads a ton of magazines, puts thousands into clubs, cleats, gloves, and occasional lesson, balls, etc., but only plays once a month. Never goes to the driving range, but thinks he can learn by simply playing more often.

No matter what it is, when you are doing anything that requires processes of some sort, motor skills of some sort, and the confidence to use both of those skills, you don't learn without a lot of perseverance and practice. I know a lot of folks that have the money and the desire to do certain things, but as one of my amigos says, "then life gets in the way" and they never get to do the things they want.

But they can still read that magazine while sitting on the hopper first thing in the morning and keep their dreams alive.

Robert

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 11/20/2015 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's
wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little
with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the
new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received,
like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from
"Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too
easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill


That describes a great number here.
I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
thing, but buying materials is another.

When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
wood, finish, handles, etc. He then see something similar for the
same price at a local store.

His choice is, buy the similar item, or try to build it himself.
Because he is unsure of his skill, he is most likely to buy the
similar item, rather the messing up it up and have a couple of hundred
dollars worth of expensive firewood, or an unfinished piece of
furniture sitting in his garage forever and still buying the similar
piece.
He could/should start with something smaller. The quality of
the "lesson" does not really increase with the size of the piece. I am
being systematic about choosing my lessons. Hopefully, I'll create my
second BBQ grill handle soon, this time using my (auction found, Stanley
#51) spokeshave. I need to sharpen it first (small hurdle). Yes, the
first handle I made, designed much like the original one, that it
replaced, only worked right for a year, but it is/was not an expensive
piece of firewood. And, I've since figured out a way to do better than
the original, and my "duplicate". I will be adding a "set screw" (as
the manufacturer should have used)! Hopefully, once this admittedly-tiny
and cheap project is complete, I'll have some confidence with a
spokeshave! Besides that, it sounds "fun"! FWIW, vegetable oil finish
worked fine.

Bill


I have been there done that.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood

Yes, I agree with you. I think it may not be "fear of making mistakes"
as much as "fear of the unknown". Who knows, "avoiding the unknown" may
be part of human nature? Then we read to make it "less unknown"? To a
point, knowing what we're up against is a good thing.

Bill

On 11/20/2015 12:26 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/19/15 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's
wrote that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should
say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
little with the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of
hovering over the new Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog,
that I just received, like I usually do (they are rather out of my
budget anyway), I scanned it more quickly without hovering,
determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people,
in various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from
"Beginners Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might
possibly know someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer
and a nail and ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it!
When one has work that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble
excuse!), it's all too easy to fall into the BS trap! I think I need
to learn how to cut a pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6
slices...okay.

Bill

I think I still have a box full of woodworking books, from our move.
Whenever I'd get a new tool (lathe!) I would get books and read up on
techniques and safety, etc. There's a healthy amount to it, but yes,
one can get immersed in reading and learning about it so much that they
never end up doing it.

Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
instead of reading about it.

Nothing wrong with learning by reading/watching. But learning by doing
seems to be a much more fruitful and enjoyable endeavor.



What is scary is those people who have the advanced degrees and no
practical experience think the world should run as it says in the book
and the way academia thinks it should.

When they are forced into practical situations, they are not only
useless, but can become dangerous to others when trying to make the
practical world comply to the books and academia's ideas.

We have many examples of these people trying to run things in the US today.

-MIKE- writes:


Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
as well as teach.

In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
alike.

Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.

John McCoy wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote in
:

I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
thing, but buying materials is another.

When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to
buy the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred
dollars. wood, finish, handles, etc.

That is certainly a big part of it in our hobby, maybe
not so much so in others.

But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.

Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.

Yep, and it - AKA frugality - can be learned.

When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in pawn
shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started being more
frugal.

Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts, some
knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots of swirly
grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from "scrap".

I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet hanging
rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made all our
passage doors.

I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood

The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.

On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, wrote:
Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year.

Leon might remember this:

Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.

A shop loaded with every large tool (high dollar, 3ph commercial grade
tools/machinery, too big for any shop I've ever owned), and every hand
tool that could be bought from Rockler, WoodCraft and LV; a dust
collector that would suffice for a lumber yard, a forklift, a spray
booth larger than my current shop, and office space bigger than the
ground floor in my home, among other things.

And it was well documented that the ONLY, and I mean ONLY, thing ever
made with those tools were a half dozen pens put together with blanks
from Rockler.

All the equipment was new, and, except for the small lathe used for the
pens, had never been used when it was sold.

And no, I availed myself of none of it, except for some expendables ...
simply refused to profit in any way whatsoever from our good friend's
misfortune.

But, I do occasionally dream about what I could have done with all that
space and all those tools. Oh well ...

Que sera, sera ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and bath
space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should be
a criminal offense to have published it.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/20/15 12:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:


Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I
called them "professional students," because many of them never had
any actual, real world, work experience. They went from high
school to college, to grad school, to being a doctoral candidate,
to teaching and never did anything else in their lives. (Think:
the professor from "Back To School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do as
well as teach.

In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding
'tenured professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors
are not alike.


Oh lighten up. Did I touch a nerve? :-)
It wasn't a blanket statement concerning all college professors. If you
notice, I wrote "the tenured professors where I used to work" which is a
pretty narrow focus. And even then any reasonable person could assume i
was talking about some and not all.


Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.


That's called an illustration to help to help make a point. I got
plenty of " real-world knowledge" from working in academia for 15 years
which is solely what I based my opinion on.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"dadiOH" wrote in :

The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.

There's much truth to that - but if you make a mistake,
don't understand how it happened, how to fix it, and how
to avoid making the mistake next time, then you're not
learning, you're just stuck.

Places like this newsgroup are a good way to avoid that.

John

On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.

On 11/20/2015 3:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

First he was simply playing in 4/4 time - the most common time signature
that practically every pop song is in- but *counting* to five instead,
running over into the next measure. Then it went completely off the
rails. He was playing in something like the square root of 7 over Pi.

I almost didn't survive the video that YouTube put up as a natural segue
from that one: "Expert Village Fails". I could scarcely breathe it was
so hilarious.

My favorites were the drum instructor and the very last guy, who was
somehow trying to show us how to build a recording studio. I couldn't
figure out what part of recording studio building he was trying to show
us, but he managed to squeeze in a spectacular number of errors using
just a cinder block, a drill, anchors, furring strips and glue.

On 11/20/2015 3:32 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 3:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in
each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

First he was simply playing in 4/4 time - the most common time signature
that practically every pop song is in- but *counting* to five instead,
running over into the next measure. Then it went completely off the
rails. He was playing in something like the square root of 7 over Pi.

I almost didn't survive the video that YouTube put up as a natural segue
from that one: "Expert Village Fails". I could scarcely breathe it was
so hilarious.

My favorites were the drum instructor and the very last guy, who was
somehow trying to show us how to build a recording studio. I couldn't
figure out what part of recording studio building he was trying to show
us, but he managed to squeeze in a spectacular number of errors using
just a cinder block, a drill, anchors, furring strips and glue.

Sorry, here's the link:

https://youtu.be/jvAAycrwyIA

On 11/20/15 2:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
"wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
simply doing it instead of reading about it.

Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.

Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
be a criminal offense to have published it.


There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0


It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!


Bill, he was trying to demonstrate playing in 5/4 time which is 5 beats
per measure. Most modern music is in 4/4 time, four beat per measure,
which it is commonly referred to as.... wait for it.... "common time"
designated my a C in place of a fractional 4/4 at the head of a bar of
sheet music. Probably the most famous 5/4 song is "Take Five" by Dave
Brubeck. Another pop song that everyone knows is the theme song from
Mission Impossible. These are both examples of a 5/4 song that sound
like odd time. They sound natural and "danceable" to the average
listener. Great modern composers like Sting make odd time songs like
these the fact that they are in odd time doesn't even enter one's mind,
until one tries to clap along. :-)

Hearing great odd time songs that flow so easily and groove so
intrinsically can often cruelly lead a musician into thinking they are
easy to play and easy to create.

Which leads us to the guy in this video. He thought it was easy and
it's so deceptive that it fooled him even while he was attempting to
play it. :-) The whole deal with the video, the funny part, is that
he's playing what he *thinks* is a 5/4 groove, but he's playing it in
4/4 time and he can't seem to grasp that fact. It's akin to laying out
studs on a wall on the half meter (19.2") marks on your tape measure
instead of the 16" marks. You may have laid out 7 studs for an 8'
plate, but that last stud is going to end up on the next 8 footer.

Basically when this 'expert' is playing his "5/4 groove" he's playing it
in 4/4 time, but keeps messing up his counting. He keeps trying to
count to 5, but his pattern repeats after beat 4. You can hear when his
brain finally stops fighting his hands and he starts counting "2-3-4-5,
2-3-4-5, 2-3-4-5." His brain thinks, "Hey I got it now, I'm playing in
5 because my count is getting to 5 every time." :-D


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/20/15 2:22 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.


HA!
Reminds me of the old joke about counting in 3/4 time.
"One, two, threefour, one, two, threefour."
It's better when you hear it. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote in :

There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

What a weird website.

"How to prepare your pet for rain"
"What panties are best for a small butt"
"How to draw bats"

These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...

John

On 11/20/15 3:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in :

There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

What a weird website.

"How to prepare your pet for rain"
"What panties are best for a small butt"
"How to draw bats"

These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...

John


LOL, yes, you're correct. But thank God there are experts for that.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"dadiOH" wrote in :


Yep, and it - AKA frugality - can be learned.

When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in
pawn shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started
being more frugal.

Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts,
some knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots
of swirly grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from
"scrap".

I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet
hanging rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made
all our passage doors.

I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.



I made a habit of building entire high school shop projects out of the
off-cuts and scraps saved from other's projects. First day of building,
I'd be the one in the classroom, piece of paper on the desk finalizing
(or starting ;-)) my plans... and generally avoiding the material
gathering rush.

It's harder to do that now, despite all the variety of pieces I have I
never seem to have the one I want. Things get complicated when you get
beyond 1x12 pine boards.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

John McCoy wrote in
:


What a weird website.

"How to prepare your pet for rain"

It's important to prepare your fish for rain. Go to the local
party/drinks store and buy some little umbrellas for drinks. The fish
love those, and it will keep them from getting wet.

"What panties are best for a small butt"

Take your boyfriend along and ask his opinion. He'll make sure you look
awesome, so long as he doesn't trip over his tongue.

"How to draw bats"

It's like drawing straws, only you pick up bats instead.

These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...

John

Do I qualify as an expert?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/20/2015 11:11 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood



we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
craftsman level :-)




--
Jeff

On 11/20/2015 1:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:


Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
as well as teach.

In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
alike.

Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.


I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I won't
mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to keep the
program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked outside of
the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of everything,
but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from thing to
thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any of the
disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make it better.
I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
and learning the ropes.

I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work for
the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They were not
practical.

I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for other
basic reasons.

Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not well
grounded.


--
Jeff

On 11/20/2015 12:35 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, wrote:
Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am
surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many
folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a
coffee table or a night stand once a year.

Leon might remember this:

Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.
Snip



Yes I remember well.

On 11/20/2015 12:29 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a


they described some symptoms but not the real problem

the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors

definitely not limited to working with wood

The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.



Exactly and you are not good until you can masterfully hide those
mistakes because they continue to happen. :~)

On 11/20/2015 2:22 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.



His lyrics suck

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).

It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.

Bill


And just to add a bit more.
Tools, not the ones you use to cut wood, the ones you use to design with.

I used tp build furniture long before I got my first computer and it
took me forever to build something.
It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

And until Sketchup I was not terribly fast even using AutoCAD LT.
I suspect that Sketchup is as revolutionary to wood workers as the
SawStop and Festool Domino...

If you are not using that program yet you should be.

On 11/20/15 6:53 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/20/2015 2:22 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!

Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.



His lyrics suck

You win!

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply