Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

Thanks,
Stephen.

On 31/05/14 11:32, Stephen wrote:
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?


Need to have a mind to track things about other things.

Play this flow game...

http://moh97.us/flow/

(sorry, if there was something else that had to be done today)


--
Adrian C

In message , Stephen
writes
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

Thanks,
Stephen.


You mentioned pillar drills, try and find a decent one, it saves a lot
of time and broken drill bits.

http://s117.photobucket.com/user/G8I....html?sort=3&o
=11

I use acetates and a UV exposure box then etch them. Once etched the
holes in the copper pads are easy to drill as they act as a guide for
aligning the bit.
--
Bill

Well of course the answer is, it depends. If you are using no ICs and no
surface mount, and just wire ended bits, When I could see I used to do them
manually, but there were even programs that ran on the ZX Spectrum for all
of the stages of this back in the 80s, provided you could do the relevant
photo production, and had an Mpillar drill under numerical control.
It was a bit of a make do and mend life back then. However with the advent
of surface mount and multi layer pcb design, its far outside the
possibilities of home production.

Pass the Ferric Chloride someone!
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen wrote:
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

Briefly:
Design components (schematic symbol and PCB footprint)
Draw schematic (using above and library components)
Run electrical rules check (ERC) - look for mistakes (unconnected wires etc)
Extract netlist (connectivity) and send to PCB editor
Set up constraints (minimum track size, minimum distance from track to hole,
track to track etc)
Place components
Route PCB (by hand usually better than autoroute) - turn straight-line
'airwires' into routed copper traces
Run design rules check (don't violate any constraints)
Fix the problems (perhaps make changes in schematic and update PCB)
Export Gerber (artwork layers) and Excellon (drill files)
Send to PCB fab (or make yourself)

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

Eagle is popular, but the UI takes a bit of getting used to. It's free for
small boards.

Altium is nice, but it's a pro package with a pro price.

There's a variety of vaguely open source packages around that are
probably fine for simpler PCBs, I've not tried them.

Every company and their dog seem to have a commercial PCB package: I'd
suggest steering clear of the cheap and obscure ones. Generally the more
popular packages have better support and more library components.

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

I've used PCBTrain, which are a bit more 'pro' than you might want. There's
a collection of ultra-cheap send-it-to-china fabs such as:

http://www.seeedstudio.com/service/i...ite/pcbService
http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order

that look interesting, but I've not tried them.

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

I've used a CNC drilling machine. Hand drilling with a pillar drill is
doable too - you usually have a pad which is a good target for the drill.
The tricky bit is getting everything aligned if you have a double sided
board (on a CNC I did the drilling first, and then used that as alignment).

Depending on the application, a surface mount only board may be worth a
go. Surface mount is quicker to solder than through-hole IME. Or use as
many SMD parts as you can to cut down the drill holes.

Theo

On Sat, 31 May 2014 11:32:54 +0100, Stephen wrote:

Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

This isn't a bad intro; comes with the free version of Eagle as I recall.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/007142783X

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Stephen wrote:
Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

I'd first ask just how complicated they're going to be - and if it's
something you would enjoy, rather than just have, to do.

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I actually enjoy the design stage from a schematic. Others may prefer
crossword puzzles. So I can't help you with that.

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

I have the hole positions as part of the etching process and have a very
decent but old PCB drill press. Using tungsten bits, you can drill all the
holes very quickly.

The thing is that when using through hole stuff you're not going to be
making vastly complicated things - if you were you'd go surface mount
which in practice means factory made.

My stuff is generally single sided single layer - but I have made double
sided at home.

I basically just use a cad prog with my own library of things I use often.
DraftSight would be a free one that does much the same. You can do the
layout on one layer, and the PCB on another.

The only other bit of special equipment I have is a heated etch tank with
bubble pump. Cost under 100 quid.

But as I said, I enjoy the process. It's almost certainly not cost
effective, other than as a hobby.

Here's an example:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps3817cd0a.jpg

--
*Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Here's an example:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps3817cd0a.jpg

1) There seems to be an area at the lower right where some etching
should have occurred, but didn't - WTF?

No - it's correct. As designed. ;-)

2) Also many areas not connected to each other or anything. In the
context of the application, would that have mattered?

No point in etching for a the sake of it. Just wastes etching fluid.


I etched a PCB for something in the 6th form, can't remember what,
perhaps a bi-stable. All I recall is that I used a *****load* of ferric
chloride.

My trick is only to etch the minimum possible.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Here's an example:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps3817cd0a.jpg

1) There seems to be an area at the lower right where some etching
should have occurred, but didn't - WTF?

No - it's correct. As designed. ;-)

So why are all those tracks shorted together?

2) Also many areas not connected to each other or anything. In the
context of the application, would that have mattered?

No point in etching for a the sake of it. Just wastes etching fluid.

The only concern is if you have low-signal or RF circuits, where floating
tracks could pick up noise. Which may not matter in your application.

My trick is only to etch the minimum possible.

Good tip. In a PCB program you can use a 'polygon pour' to make a copper
shape where all the other tracks are cut out of it. Assign that pour to a
net (eg ground) to connect it as part of the circuit.

Surface mount isn't hard to do by hand BTW, it just means learning different
techniques. Doesn't need fancy tools to begin with either, beyond a supply
of flux.

Theo

On 31/05/2014 16:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Here's an example:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps3817cd0a.jpg

1) There seems to be an area at the lower right where some etching
should have occurred, but didn't - WTF?

No - it's correct. As designed. ;-)

Can you explain what you are trying to achieve in that area?

It doesn't look right to me.

On Saturday, 31 May 2014 11:32:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
Hello,

I've been having a look at low-cost/no-cost/freeware PCB design packages recently. There are 3 that are widely used:

Eagle (http://www.cadsoftusa.com) - free for small designs
Kicad (http://www.kicad-pcb.org) - fully free and open source
DipTrace (http://diptrace.com) - free for small designs

There are others - but they have a smaller number of users.

I spent a fair bit of time evaluating both Kicad and DipTrace, and a lesser amount of time with Eagle.

I have in the past used a whole spectrum of packages professionally (including the really high end stuff) - but haven't needed to do board design myself for a few years (instead working with a professional electronics engineer when needed).

I would really strongly recommend DipTrace over the others.

I found Kicad to be 4 separate tools stitched together (and not that well) for schematic capture, back-annotation and footprint association, library part design and PCB layout. It's necessary to be meticulously careful to follow several non-intuitive steps in the correct order.

In my brief look at Eagle it seemed similar.

DipTrace OTOH is delightfully obvious in use, and I found that for all the common operations I could just try stuff - and it would do what I wanted first time. I particularly liked the always-on mouse wheel zoom, and spacebar object rotation (wheel mouse, or any mouse, not essential - but nice).

For people familiar with a particular package, there's strong incentives to stick with the tools and a process they know - but if you're starting out - go for DipTrace and work through their tutorial.

As far as PCB manufacturing goes, the only one I've used is PCBTrain (http://pcbtrain.co.uk/) - and I've found them faultless. There's also a lot of info about PCB design and manufacture (incl home manufacture) and CAD packages, on their website.

Stephen used his keyboard to write :
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

Thanks,
Stephen.

It all really depends upon the complexity and density of the PCB's you
intend to design. Single and double sided PCB's are possible DIY. You
can get free software which autoroutes, take a look at Eagle. You need
to be aware that autorouting may not always work and may need some
help. The actual etching again, can be done, but needs some practice on
simpler boards first.

Drilling poses no great problems, if you have the equiment to do it,
because etching leaves a hole in the copper to act as a guide.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
No - it's correct. As designed. ;-)

So why are all those tracks shorted together?

Star grounds.

--
*Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
Surface mount isn't hard to do by hand BTW, it just means learning
different techniques. Doesn't need fancy tools to begin with either,
beyond a supply of flux.

It's simply too fiddly for my old eyes and hands. ;-)

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Stephen wrote:
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

How complex, how many layers, what size?

For small hobby based stuff, Fritzing is reasonable and I've used it to
make many small PCBs, some for my own use, some to sell.

With Fristing - its schematic capture is rubbish. Essentially, it lets
you take a design from breadboard to PCB. You'll see it used a lot on
Arduino and now Raspberry Pi applications. They have their own prorotype
service, but it's stupidly expensive.

So it's far from perfect, but the learning curve is not that steep at all.

Eagle is good too - but stupidly expensive for an individual who wants to
make a small number of commercial boards. Free for hobby use though. Kicad
is next on my list.

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?

I gave up on home etching, drilling, etc. and just foot the cost for
protptypes - not cheap at all, but for me its been more than worth it. I
get a double sided board back in 5 days with solder mask, silkscreen,
plated through, etc. and they fit as many of my boards on a panel as they
can. e.g. this one: http://unicorn.drogon.net/drobert-test-2.jpg they
got 8 on the panel and it cost me about £90. (I said it wasn't cheap,
but my time costs more)

I use a different company for production who're much cheaper for bigger
numbers, but also take longer - you pay for time more than anything else
with PCB manufacture.

http://www.pcbpanel.co.uk/ is the prototyping place I use.

Gordon

In article , Adrian C
scribeth thus
On 31/05/14 11:32, Stephen wrote:
Hello,

Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?


Need to have a mind to track things about other things.

Play this flow game...

http://moh97.us/flow/

(sorry, if there was something else that had to be done today)


Easy gave up after a 2000 score...
--
Tony Sayer

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:32:54 AM UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
Hello,
Are there any web sites you recommend for teaching someone (me) about
pcb design or can you describe the process here?
What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?
I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?
If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?
Thanks,
Stephen.


The questions have been answered pretty well. I'll just look at a few outlier options occasionally useful.

30 mins in sunlight can expose photoresist pcb.
The very simplest of boards can use paint as the etch resist, drawn freehand.
Set your laser printer to densest and you can print onto acetate for use with photoresist board.

Finally pcb alternatives are occasionally useful, such as hard wired, ugly bug, manhattan etc. Even stripboard is adequate for simple stuff, and pads only board for slightly more complex through-hole stuff.


NT

On 31/05/2014 11:32, Stephen wrote:

What software is easy to learn for designing pcbs?

I know you can send your pcb design away and someone posts it back to
you; which companies do you recommend for this?

If you tried to make your own pcb by etching or uv, how do you go
about getting all the holes in the right places? Is it just a matter
of being very patient and careful with a pillar drill? That sounds
like a very monotonous job and the most tedious part of the process?


With some through hole components you can bend the legs and treat them
as surface mount components and do away with so many holes to drill.

PCBs using junk snail mail and a laser printer
http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm

Software - try a free version of Eagle
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/freeware/

Tips for soldering surface mount components
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiroWBkdFY
often the trick is lots of flux.

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

On 03/06/2014 20:42, alan wrote:

Tips for soldering surface mount components
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiroWBkdFY
often the trick is lots of flux.



On a DIY job for home NEVER use lead free solder.

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

In article ,
wrote:
Set your laser printer to densest and you can print onto acetate for use
with photoresist board.

You can use a inkjet too with a suitable transparency. I've found it more
reliable than a cheap laser.

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.