On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
take its toll on your body.
For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
English, I doubt they did that well.



You had the choice to hire them.
If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
getting paid market value and workers' comp.
Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
there were doing.


I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
"first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
"rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.


Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:59:12 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:

Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
I'm concerned.

A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.


Lew


You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
that is not helping.

Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.

Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
says that is good though.


California, where normal is upside down and backwards.

I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.

Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
when they post something that someone else disagrees with.

I think it all started in California and spread eastward...

At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0


Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
overseas at a much lower cost?

Agreed but US made stuff (appliances, anyway) do exist. It's usually
the people who bitch the most about exporting jobs are 1) the ones
buying foreign products when there is a US made alternative and 2)
vote for those who are causing companies to move jobs outside the US.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?

Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
That's where the left's policies lead.

full benefits and retirement for life. These people also want WalMart
prices for all the things they buy.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

On 3/22/2015 5:31 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
I'm concerned.

A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.

Lew
---------------------------------------------------
Leon wrote:

You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico
and
that is not helping.
------------------------------------------------
Max wrote:

Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners,
kitchen
ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.
---------------------------------------------------
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
Lew says that is good though.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sorry to see your company lost a valued customer; however, doubt your
labor costs were the only cause the loss.

Unless you are in a business where the only value you bring to the
table is low price, my guess is that somebody took their eye off the
ball and truly forgot why this now ex-customer became your customer
in the first place.

Just a guess.

And yes, if we are to loose a USA company to another country, then
Mexico is the least painful since hopefully the move will help relieve
the pressure on our entry level labor pool by creating jobs in Mexico.

Lew


Well that is some what of a self centered way to look at things. What
about our poor northern states having to deal with the Canadians coming
over here for jobs. LOL JUST KIDDING!

But seriously our poor USA actors are in earnest being replaced by their
Canadian counter parts. It is surprising how many of today's TV shows
pretty much have an all Canadian cast. Take Rookie Blue for example.
Scroll down to the cast names and click on the name beside the picture.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1442065/...s?ref_=tt_ql_1

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:47:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
unfair pay.
It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.

If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
every penny of it.

I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
today but not for all of the tomorrows.

No, people pay for what *THEY* value. No more.

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.


Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
worth and what some one is paid.

On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.

To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
safety equipment.
I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
being burned by the scorching hot shingles.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:16:21 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.


Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
worth and what some one is paid.

Not at all. If someone wasn't worth what they were paid, the
transaction wouldn't happen. That's the definition of worth.

Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
take its toll on your body.
For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
English, I doubt they did that well.



You had the choice to hire them.
If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
getting paid market value and workers' comp.
Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
there were doing.


I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
"first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
"rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.


Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.

I think they had one person who was in charge of the team, and that he
really knew who was who, based upon previous experience. And evidently,
if you weren't on time, you didn't work that day!

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:19:49 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.

To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
safety equipment.
I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
being burned by the scorching hot shingles.

It's the same here. I see the monkeys climbing all over 15:12 roofs,
with no safety equipment. I'm sure it's in the truck, though (and the
boss "thinks" it's being used).

On 3/22/2015 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.


And firefighters.... ;-)

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:55:42 -0500, Leon wrote:

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can
by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to
think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is
good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.

That's a pretty good summary. The problem lies in the "want to do"
part. I've known a lot of computer programmers who hate what they do but
got into it because it paid well. And since there are so few good ones
to go around, they get away with it.

As an aside, I started in the late '50s. Companies were trying to devise
tests to find people they could train to do programming.Never did get a
really good test, but the best they came up with was 3 questions:

1. Do you like to do crossword puzzles?
2. Do you like to take tests?
3. Do you like to do jigsaw puzzles?

If you said no to all 3, they showed you the door. If you said yes to
all 3 they offered you the corner office :-). It did weed out the ones
who were hopeless, but wasn't as good at finding only the excellent
ones. A lot of mediocre to just adequate passed the test.

On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/22/15 5:58 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 5:09 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will
take its toll on your body.
For what I paid to have my house re-shingled, the company could have
afforded to pay his employees $200/day. But since maybe only 1 spoke
English, I doubt they did that well.



You had the choice to hire them.
If I hired a roofing company to roof my house, they would have to
provide me with proof that all workers were here legally and they were
getting paid market value and workers' comp.
Oh, and I would want to inspect recent jobs to make sure they knew WTF
there were doing.


I went with a referral. But it was amazing the cultural difference
between the salesperson who came to speak with me, and the group who
arrived to do the work. I think the workers were working on some sort of
"first-come, first-served" basis, as there were at least a half-dozen
car and trucks on my street by 7:00 am. And since the first day was
"rained-out", the same thing happened the next day.


Kind'a sounds like your contractor went to HD to buy the materials and
hired several guys at the parking lot to to the job.


Kinda sounds like you're familiar with the roofing business. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
change. Even though their products are often inferior they
absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions
or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on
the assembly line, I just know
some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not
as over-payed as you think they are.


So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
deserved the pay they were getting.

It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
absolutely work as hard for their pay...
Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
and grab the garbage cans too.






They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.

Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
not some.



--
Jeff

On 3/22/15 6:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?

Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
That's where the left's policies lead.


Exactly.
If fun had anything at all to do with the equation, then Athletes DO
deserve to make millions. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.


Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
isn't any fun. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/22/15 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.


Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
worth and what some one is paid.


From an economics view, that is the very definition of worth.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/22/15 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.

To tell you the truth I think most roofers in Texas would not recognize
safety equipment.
I think they do however think of a ladder as a safety item for getting
down off of a roof. And they sit on big foam rubber blocks to keep from
being burned by the scorching hot shingles.


I think that foam grips the roof, too, and keeps them from sliding down.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
change. Even though their products are often inferior they
absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that
kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions
or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
work on
the assembly line, I just know
some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
but not
as over-payed as you think they are.


So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
deserved the pay they were getting.

It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
absolutely work as hard for their pay...
Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
and grab the garbage cans too.






They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.

Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
not some.

The problem getting that is that the agencies that accredit schools
aren't measuring vocational skills. Put welding on the list, and they
wood have welding at every school--and in short order!

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:28:15 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:55:42 -0500, Leon wrote:

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can
by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to
think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is
good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.

That's a pretty good summary. The problem lies in the "want to do"
part. I've known a lot of computer programmers who hate what they do but
got into it because it paid well. And since there are so few good ones
to go around, they get away with it.

As an aside, I started in the late '50s. Companies were trying to devise
tests to find people they could train to do programming.Never did get a
really good test, but the best they came up with was 3 questions:

1. Do you like to do crossword puzzles?
2. Do you like to take tests?
3. Do you like to do jigsaw puzzles?

If you said no to all 3, they showed you the door. If you said yes to
all 3 they offered you the corner office :-). It did weed out the ones
who were hopeless, but wasn't as good at finding only the excellent
ones. A lot of mediocre to just adequate passed the test.

In the late '70s and early '80s, IBM was retraining every technician
and secretary to become a programmer. The training was pretty intense
and there was no guarantee of a job if you failed the course but they
got a *lot* of programmers out of the deal.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)

Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
himself. Freedom is good.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:35:18 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.


Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
isn't any fun. :-)

But you can bet the boss supplies it.

On 3/22/2015 10:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:

Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
I'm concerned.

A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.


Lew


You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
that is not helping.

Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.

Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico. Lew
says that is good though.


California, where normal is upside down and backwards.

I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.

Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
when they post something that someone else disagrees with.

I think it all started in California and spread eastward...

At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0

--
Jeff

"People are losing jobs when they post something that someone else disagrees with"

That has been going on for as long as there have been people with authority over others.

Replace the word "post" with write, scribe, chisel, sing, dance or any other form of communication and you'll find examples of people being fired (or worse) for their opinions since the beginning of humanity.


Smoke signals, jungle drums? ;-)

On 3/22/2015 10:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/22/2015 12:10 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:59 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/21/2015 10:45 PM, Max wrote:

Given that files are an item that will probably never be built
again in the USA, Mexico is a pretty good choice as far as
I'm concerned.

A file manufacturing plant sure beats a drone monitored fence.


Lew


You might be surprised how many vehicles are assembled in Mexico and
that is not helping.

Not to mention water heaters, refrigerators, water softeners, kitchen
ranges, blenders, toasters, etc.

Yes, we lost a $1million customer when they moved from NJ to Mexico.
Lew
says that is good though.


California, where normal is upside down and backwards.

I agree, but I think a lot of things these days are that way.

Everyone wants everyone to think the same way. People are losing jobs
when they post something that someone else disagrees with.

I think it all started in California and spread eastward...

At least that's the way the wind blows...:-0


Much of it we bring on ourselves. We want to buy stuff cheaply and then
complain because it came from Mexico or China. How do you sell a US mae
appliance at a fair price when all your competitors have theirs made
overseas at a much lower cost?

Exactly.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:33:29 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 6:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:36:31 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they should earn
what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China and Mexico workers
have replaced American workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now see how our labor force
was way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than what we
can build here but that will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better value, you get what you
pay for. 50 years ago we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I
choose that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did an incredible service
to the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?

Perhaps not but the bread line isn't much fun, either. You have no
right to a cushy job. In fact, you have no right to a job at all.
That's where the left's policies lead.


Exactly.
If fun had anything at all to do with the equation, then Athletes DO
deserve to make millions. :-)

Then so do I! :-(

;-)

On 3/22/2015 4:36 PM, Bill wrote:

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


No, so I got an education and went in a different direction, though in
manufacturing. Kwityerbitchin and do the same if you don't like it.

You deserve a safe working place and a fair wage for the work you do.
Nothing more.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:24:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:36 PM, Bill wrote:

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy metal
things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


No, so I got an education and went in a different direction, though in
manufacturing. Kwityerbitchin and do the same if you don't like it.

You deserve a safe working place and a fair wage for the work you do.
Nothing more.

If you've accepted the wage, it's fair. It takes two to have a
contract.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:03:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:
Big Snip
It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
absolutely work as hard for their pay... Those guys have to be some
of the most physically fit workers in the country as a whole. At
least the ones that actually lift and empty the can by themselves.
And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our collectors keep
up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph, and grab the
garbage cans too.


Yet, they could train orangutans to do that job in a month and they'd
work for whatever they picked out of the cans to eat.


I think some of them are orangutans. ;~)

Our garbage man makes about 30 K a year, now mind you it is Southern
Illinois.

On 3/22/2015 7:45 PM, Bill wrote:
woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 5:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:32 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary way
beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why do
certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that they
should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter more than
our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why China
and Mexico workers have replaced American workers? Now that the
US and other countries became majorly involved in world trade we
now see how our labor force was way over paid for their
production. Yes China and Mexico built-products are on occasion
not of the same quality than what we can build here but that will
change. Even though their products are often inferior they
absolutely offer a better value, you get what you pay for. 50
years ago we imported way less quality products from Japan than
we do from China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose
that product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain and
simple the American automobile industry is in the shape it is in
because of workers with entitlement issues and the unions that
supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions, which
were needed at one time and did an incredible service to the labor
force, have now brainwashed people with high school educations and
little to no skilled training that they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to do
Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass licensing
exams, and had 10 years experience before she started making that
kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions
or her risk of being injured on the job, for instance. I don't
work on
the assembly line, I just know
some folks who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed,
but not
as over-payed as you think they are.


So where I grew up in Long Island NY the garbage men were making more
than the teachers 30 years ago. I don't know now, as I haven't lived
there since 78. While garbage men have a tough job, I personally think
it's because they are totally unskilled labor. I don't think they
deserved the pay they were getting.

It is shocking that the garbage men are not paid like athletes. They
absolutely work as hard for their pay...
Those guys have to be some of the most physically fit workers in the
country as a whole. At least the ones that actually lift and empty the
can by themselves. And run to the next house. I am amazed the pace our
collectors keep up. About as fast as I walk, I walk an average of 4mph,
and grab the garbage cans too.






They work hard, but lets not forget, they are totally unskilled labor,
and there are plenty of people that can fill those jobs.

Because we have kids that think they're too cool for school.
I wish that vocational training existed in Middle or Highschool (all)
not some.

The problem getting that is that the agencies that accredit schools
aren't measuring vocational skills. Put welding on the list, and they
wood have welding at every school--and in short order!

And the trade schools would be bitching that you're taking their income
away.

On 3/22/2015 5:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
unfair pay.
It's the free market.



The pay for athletes can be justified the same way. The owners are
often billionaires and the team evidently brings in the dollars.
Unfortunately, dad can't afford to take the kids to the game, but many
times they are sold out.

I guess as long as people pay the price and buy the beer it will continue.

Not to mention that the Kardashians truly deserve the big buck for their
contribution to our society.

On 3/22/2015 7:12 PM, wrote:


If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
every penny of it.


That is the part that can be difficult to quantify. Sure, people will
go because Clint Eastwood stars in a movie, but would it be just as good
with Bob Westwood who earns $20 an hour?

On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.


You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.
Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.

And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.
It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
bigger government.

On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:30:46 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)

Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for
himself. Freedom is good.

And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making
decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better
education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy
and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more
emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately
our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are
less important than other things.
Right now we are in an "ignorance is bliss" scenario.

On 3/22/2015 6:12 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:47:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not
unfair pay.
It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie
make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this
path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies.

If the actor makes the producers $500,000,000, I'd say he was worth
every penny of it.

And that falls true in a "It's all about me" society.


I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the
shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy
today but not for all of the tomorrows.

No, people pay for what *THEY* value. No more.

Missing it.