On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:39:52 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:25 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:16:21 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:13:35 -0400, Bill
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.
I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

Why do *you* believe that you know more about what other's work is
worth than those who are paying them? No one is forcing you to watch
sports and you can surely pay double what the contractor asks next
time you have your house roofed.


Every one is entitled to an opinion. But there is a difference between
worth and what some one is paid.

Not at all. If someone wasn't worth what they were paid, the
transaction wouldn't happen. That's the definition of worth.

Which is worth more to you, A person that helps you or entertains you?

Which is more important, water or air? IOW, it's a false choice.

Both charge you nothing.

Huh? Someone is feeding them.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:44:54 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 9:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:35:18 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:03:24 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I'd bet those roofers have safety equipment that goes unused because
it slows them down.


Just like the safety equipment on the assembly line on the job he says
isn't any fun. :-)

But you can bet the boss supplies it.

Not when the boss and his crew has only been in the country for a few weeks.

Haven't seen that. The boss is a gringo.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:20:31 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/23/2015 08:51 AM, Leon wrote:

that might be debatable. ;~) they do have to train to swinging the can
up in to the truck with out hurting themselves. Much like guy on the
assembly line mounting tires/wheel assemblies and attaching lug nuts. I
think an assembly line worker would might be easier to replace, you have
to actually build up your physical strength and stamina to run along
side a garbage truck all day and in all kinds of weather and tossing
trash into the back of the trucks. Our trash cans are 75 gallon sized,
provided by the waste collection company, and they are often full.



Our G men just drive the truck and deploy the power can grabber to
collect the trash without ever getting out of the truck. The recycle
guys do run down the street, but the recycle boxes are relatively small.

Our recycle people use the same equipment and the same cans (green
rather than black). Well, we don't recycle but if we did...

On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.


You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.

(Not believing it)

Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.

Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.

Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
anything but more debt and dumber students.

If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
money.





And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.

That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
your wallet.

And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.




It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
bigger government.

Some professions are *worth* more than others.

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

On 3/23/2015 6:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/23/2015 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


It's nice to know that I am not the only one here that thinks this
way and just to be clear, I am not a liberal.

Just so everyone is aware, Leon has been shown to be a big
contributor to the Liberal Gay And Lesbian Coalition in Support of
Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies, To Include Gun Control and
Other Liberal Thoughts and Ideologies. It's been said that he even
built a coffee table for their lobby...


,,,,,,,,,, Had I not had an in with these organizations through the
president, YOU, it never wood'a happened.


Shhhhhh - I told you, my role is supposed to be secret...


Cat's out'a the bag. ;~)

Who knew that this simple post would generate a thread with 128
responses and still counting?

Lew

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.


You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.

(Not believing it)

Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.

Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.

Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
anything but more debt and dumber students.

If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
money.

Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
needed. Much less, in fact.


And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.

That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
your wallet.

And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.

Yer kiddin', right?

Because the government is stealing more money from some and giving it
to others (after taking a huge cut to feed itself). Because
government is micro managing the economy. Because government is
picking winners and losers. Because government is forcing you to buy
what you don't want. There are about a thousand more reasons.

No, the voters are smart enough to vote themselves a piece of the
treasury.

It does not bother me that anyone makes what they want for a living so
much as the value the consumer puts on some professions compared to
others. You know if the government actually cared about education it
would make things better but the dumber and more dependent the
population is the easier it is to get the population to go along with
bigger government.

Some professions are *worth* more than others.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

On 3/24/2015 7:54 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.


You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.

(Not believing it)

Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.

Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.

Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
anything but more debt and dumber students.

If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
money.

Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
needed. Much less, in fact.

Brilliant.
Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.




And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.

That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
your wallet.

And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.

Yer kiddin', right?

I can see that I am waiting my time trying to point out the obvious.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:54 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:50:21 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 7:30 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be
paid a salary way beyond what he actually
brings to the work force? Why do certain
laborers, factory workers for instance, feel
that they should earn what some doctors earn,
of for that matter more than our educators?
Entitlement. Is it even a small wonder why
China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries
became majorly involved in world trade we now
see how our labor force was way over paid for
their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same
quality than what we can build here but that
will change. Even though their products are
often inferior they absolutely offer a better
value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago
we imported way less quality products from
Japan than we do from China and Mexico. Now if
it is made in Japan I choose that product
rather than, over priced and lesser quality
American made. Just look at the American
automobile industry. Plain and simple the
American automobile industry is in the shape it
is in because of workers with entitlement
issues and the unions that supposedly
represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time.
The unions, which were needed at one time and did
an incredible service to the labor force, have
now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that
they are worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with
big, sharp, heavy metal things swinging by you all
day sounds like a "fun" job to do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees,
went through internships, training and continuing
education, had to pass licensing exams, and had 10
years experience before she started making that kind
of money. I've never heard her once describe her job
as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask
her about her working conditions or her risk of being
injured on the job, for instance. I don't work on the
assembly line, I just know some folks who have. I
agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there
are dozens and dozens of safety procedures and devices in
place on every assembly line in this country. If there
some that aren't safe, they should be made safer. But
what does that have to do with employee pay? Are you
saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have
safety gear like harnesses? Because I can guarantee
their jobs are way more dangerous than any auto assembly
line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr plus
benefits and retirement just because they have a
dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The
job will take its toll on your body. I have more of a
problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries
will come into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with
the inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than
income), and how it can't last. I certainly don't have all
of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays
it's entertainers more than its health care workers and
educators.


If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then
it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.


You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the
movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our
society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to
the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand
why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in
things that make us happy today but not for all of the
tomorrows.


So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid
well?

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society
the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do
something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a
game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay.
I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes.
I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that
benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a
person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more
important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a
necessity.



If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be
paid well.

If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not
deserve that money?



Here is how I am looking at it.

You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25
million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to
rid their home of vermin.

You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of
10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.

You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps
and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the
traps.

Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most
therefore being the most deserved?

Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either
pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from
now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but
forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you
have done?

"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for
more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of
what you earn.

And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they
can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been
conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while
the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the
problem.


Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for
mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant.
Bald Eagle trap. :-)

Well substitute any of those and I feel that with varying degrees all
provide more of a service to society than than very highly paid game
players and entertainers.


You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying
some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market.
You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you
better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your
ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)


I totally understand and agree. And I don't condemn those that pursue
those goals. We probably have the best system in that it lets us go in
the direction that we want to go. BUT it is not the perfect system.
Think about this, in all actuality entertainers/game players are getting
paid more each year and the educators teaching our children are being
paid less.

(Not believing it)

Consider this, though. The entertainer/game player is making more
money for is boss every year. The average educator is *not* teaching.

Do we really want to give more recognition and pay to those that
entertain and don't educate our children? I think it is pretty obvious
that kids education and aptitude today are farther behind than kids 40
years ago. Not all of them but the percentages are growing. We seem to
have a snow ball effect going on.

Yes. Recent history shows that paying teachers more doesn't produce
anything but more debt and dumber students.

If you put 2 stiches on a wound that requires plastic surgery to correct
you still have a severe problem. Basically if you increase pay to the
educational system but fall far short of what is needed it is a waste of
money.

Utter nonsense. There is FAR too much money being spent on education
now. More is not always more. Unless you fix the real problems, more
money is wasted. Once you fix those problems, more money isn't
needed. Much less, in fact.

Brilliant.
Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.

1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).

2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.

3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.

4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.

5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.

6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".

I'm sure there are many others.




And anything socialism is out the door. Actually anything that any
government does to guide our thoughts is out the door. I just think
that we as "consumers" should rethink what we are spending our money on.

That's the beauty. You can choose to spend your money on anything you
want. Well, after the socialistic government takes it's hand out of
your wallet.

And what reason do you think that the the government has turned more
socialistic? Could it be ill educated voters? If our population was
smarter it would have a smaller government if it is not too late now.

Yer kiddin', right?

I can see that I am waiting my time trying to point out the obvious.

It should be pretty plain. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul is a big
part of it, but see the other post.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:32:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

....snip...

Brilliant.
Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.

The following are all good ideas. I just have a few questions.

1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.

- Who will be responsible for this task?

- Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?

4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.

- What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?

- What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?

- Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)

- Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."


6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".

I'm sure there are many others.

....snip...

On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.



I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 18:25:30 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:32:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:47:12 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

...snip...

Brilliant.
Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.

The following are all good ideas. I just have a few questions.

1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

Walker did a decent job in WI. Teacher's unions aren't all-powerful
here (right to work).

2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

The federal government requires tons of bull**** from schools. Without
this interference, the need for administrators goes down. But the big
thing is to not feed the beast more. Starve it.

3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.

- Who will be responsible for this task?

Huh? The federal government (congress) invented the DoE, it's
obviously the only one that can kill it.

- Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?

Huh? That makes no sense at all.

4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

The states and local governments control the school systems. It's
rather obvious...

5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.

- What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?

I didn't say no cost. I said cut costs. You think all of the above
is free? Administration costs as much as teachers, usually
significantly more.

- What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?

They don't participate, their little darling doesn't go to that
school. They get warehoused just as everyone (including those who
want to learn) is now.

- Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)

Oh, good ****ing Christ. Think.

- Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."

You're bull****ing.

6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".

I'm sure there are many others.

...snip...

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.

Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
though.


I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

So you admit that it's possible. ;-)

On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.

Not to worry though, you're in good company...

... so was Einstein.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:34:31 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.

Not to worry though, you're in good company...

... so was Einstein.


"consummately autodidactic"

umm...that's *two* words. You needs to learn you some more math. ;-)

On 3/25/2015 9:45 PM, Leon wrote:




I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

Formal education is good. Common sense and logic are better. You've
proved it.

On 3/25/2015 8:32 PM, wrote:

Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.

1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).

2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.

3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.

4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.

5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.

6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".

I'm sure there are many others.

Won't work. I can work, but the teacher union and politicians won't let
it happen.

My high school in Philadelphia had 3200 students and 4 or 5 people in
the office. Where I live now, he don't have that many pupils in the
entire school system, yet we have a full school board and many
administrators in each of the schools and the assistants have
assistants. .

On 3/25/2015 9:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

- Who will be responsible for this task?

- Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)


- What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?

- What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?

- Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)

- Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."


Going back a number of years, schools were run like that. They have
become bloated with top level administrators that add nothing to the
education. Too many regulations.

To implement, just set the clock back about 50 years and use the old
playbook on how to run a school. It worked. It was much cheaper.

On 3/26/2015 9:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:34:31 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.

Not to worry though, you're in good company...

... so was Einstein.


"consummately autodidactic"

umm...that's *two* words. You needs to learn you some more math. ;-)

One of the privileges of being autodidactic ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


--

-Mike-

On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


Yep!
On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
honest labor are....

On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.

Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
though.


I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

So you admit that it's possible. ;-)


LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
computer in 1986.
I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
30 year mortgage.

I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
not thought of this himself.

Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
and then paying extra with each payment.

So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
This needs to be taught.
I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.

On 3/26/2015 8:34 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/25/2015 8:45 PM, Leon wrote:
I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

You are my friend, in a word, consummately autodidactic.

Not to worry though, you're in good company...

... so was Einstein.



I try to hang out with smart people, it rubs off on me ;~)

On 3/26/2015 10:48 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2015 9:45 PM, Leon wrote:




I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

Formal education is good. Common sense and logic are better. You've
proved it.


Yeah, but I think if this were taught, in a way people could understand,
it would give more people some idea's. The problem is the bombardment
of advertizing ultimately showing you that you are not keeping up with
the Jones'. There are few things as rewarding as not having a rent or
mortgage payment.

My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
long before he started college.

I often introduce my son as my retirement plan. ;~) I got a big kick
out of an introduction a couple of weeks ago. My wife and I and my son
were visiting my father, in a memory care center, and met an older
couple, he was a resident of the center and his wife was there to visit.
She asked my son what grade he was in...;~)

Yeah we are darn proud of that kid, we picked a good one when we brought
him home from the hospital 27 years ago.

Sorry for the bragging, it just pops out. ;~)

On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.




I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
they were never taught. To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
then they have kids and then they teach.....

On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


Yep!
On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
honest labor are....

One thing very observable ... it gets worse with each succeeding generation.

The real tragedy is that those without a certain age based perspective
don't even see the problem.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


Yep!
On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
honest labor are....

Exactly, stupidity breeds stupidity.
I realize that our educational system has serious problems, mostly
teachers not being able to teach and they are mostly there to baby sit.
If we started handling problem students like we should, let the teachers
teach, and reward the teachers for turning out productive and
responsible students, with higher pay, we would attract more capable
teachers. As it is now good teachers leave for better paying jobs and
less stress.

On 3/26/2015 1:19 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/26/2015 12:45 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/26/2015 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


Yep!
On the other hand when you have 3 and 4 generations of parents who have
never learned what deferred satisfaction, conservation of assets and
honest labor are....

One thing very observable ... it gets worse with each succeeding
generation.

The real tragedy is that those without a certain age based perspective
don't even see the problem.


That in a nut shell is it. Give their kids a trophy!

On 3/26/2015 12:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.




I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
they were never taught.

I think I know what you meant but you might want to re-word that. ;-)

To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
then they have kids and then they teach.....

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:00:05 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/25/2015 9:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)

- Who will be responsible for this task?

- Once this task is completed, who will be responsible for your items 1, 2, 4 & 5?

- Who will be responsible for this task? (See your item #3)


- What methods do you suggest to take kids out of failing schools and put them in charter schools at no cost?

- What means do you suggest for forcing parents to participate?

- Who will be responsible for these tasks? (See your item #3)

- Please define "Warehouse the rest of the kids."


Going back a number of years, schools were run like that. They have
become bloated with top level administrators that add nothing to the
education. Too many regulations.

To implement, just set the clock back about 50 years and use the old
playbook on how to run a school. It worked. It was much cheaper.

Exactly right. All I did is list some of the changes.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:55:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/25/2015 8:32 PM, wrote:

Explain to me how to fix what needs to be fixed with out spending money.

1) Start by getting rid of teacher's unions, then get rid of teachers
who aren't pulling their weight (just as every other business does).

2) Fire 90% of all administrators and use that money to improve
facilities.

3) Get rid of the Department of Education. They're a drag on the
whole process. More useless (and *expensive*) overhead certainly
isn't needed.

4) Give parents, particularly in inner cities, portable vouchers to
take their kids where they want.

5) Unfortunately there isn't a lot that you can do with parents but
you can take children who want to excel out of failing schools and put
them in charter schools. Force parents to participate in these
schools. Warehouse the rest of the kids.

6) Teach RRRs, civics, history, and such. Forget "Heather has two
mommies".

I'm sure there are many others.

Won't work. I can work, but the teacher union and politicians won't let
it happen.

It happened in WI. It *can* happen elsewhere. It *will* happen but
it might take a major crash first.

My high school in Philadelphia had 3200 students and 4 or 5 people in
the office. Where I live now, he don't have that many pupils in the
entire school system, yet we have a full school board and many
administrators in each of the schools and the assistants have
assistants. .

I found a report on VT schools, a couple of years ago (which was
quickly taken down). Basically, statewide, they had a classroom
teacher for every 13 students. For every two classroom teacher, they
had not only a teacher's aid but a non-classroom teacher. That's a
student to teacher ratio of 6.5:1. That doesn't even count
administration, which was equally absurd. Yeah, there's a lot of
places to cut without even touching the students but they're
irrelevant.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:49:43 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/25/2015 9:13 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:45:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/25/2015 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:43:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 7:56 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:55:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 8:58 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:14:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 6:08 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:30:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/22/2015 4:13 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:53 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 3:36 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/22/15 1:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Why does a common laborer feel entitled to be paid a salary
way beyond what he actually brings to the work force? Why
do certain laborers, factory workers for instance, feel that
they should earn what some doctors earn, of for that matter
more than our educators? Entitlement. Is it even a small
wonder why China and Mexico workers have replaced American
workers? Now that the US and other countries became majorly
involved in world trade we now see how our labor force was
way over paid for their production. Yes China and Mexico
built-products are on occasion not of the same quality than
what we can build here but that will change. Even though
their products are often inferior they absolutely offer a
better value, you get what you pay for. 50 years ago we
imported way less quality products from Japan than we do from
China and Mexico. Now if it is made in Japan I choose that
product rather than, over priced and lesser quality American
made. Just look at the American automobile industry. Plain
and simple the American automobile industry is in the shape
it is in because of workers with entitlement issues and the
unions that supposedly represented them.


That has been my contention for the longest time. The unions,
which were needed at one time and did an incredible service to
the labor force, have now brainwashed people with high school
educations and little to no skilled training that they are
worth $50k +

Do you think standing on an assembly line with big, sharp, heavy
metal things swinging by you all day sounds like a "fun" job to
do Everyday?


WTF does fun have to do with anything!?

My wife went to school for years to earn 3 degrees, went through
internships, training and continuing education, had to pass
licensing exams, and had 10 years experience before she started
making that kind of money. I've never heard her once describe her
job as "fun."

Relatively speaking, I'll bet her job is "fun". Ask her about her
working conditions or her risk of being injured on the job, for
instance. I don't work on the assembly line, I just know some folks
who have. I agree with you that they are over-payed, but not as
over-payed as you think they are.


I though we had OSHA for that. I'm pretty sure there are dozens and
dozens of safety procedures and devices in place on every assembly line
in this country. If there some that aren't safe, they should be made
safer. But what does that have to do with employee pay?
Are you saying you'd rather have higher pay than a safe working
environment?

How about all the roofers around here who don't have safety gear like
harnesses? Because I can guarantee their jobs are way more dangerous
than any auto assembly line job. Are these roofers entitled to $50k/yr
plus benefits and retirement just because they have a dangerous job?

I don't have a problem with the $50,000 + benefits. The job will take
its toll on your body.
I have more of a problem with what professional athletes get.
Income-inequity is a problem.

Well stop buying the advertized products and their salaries will come
into line...

I was just reading about a new organization concerned with the
inquitable distribution of wealth (more so than income), and how it
can't last. I certainly don't have all of the answers.

There is certainly something wrong with a society that pays it's
entertainers more than its health care workers and educators.

I don't think so, at all. There are only a handful of people with the
skills those entertainers have. *MANY* people are willing to pay to
see them do their thing. OTOH, there are *MANY* health care workers
and educators and many people who have to pay their salary. In the
end, people (and things) are worth exactly what someone is willing to
pay (for) them.

And you have just described how our society works and why it is where it
is at today as far as the economy goes.

No, I really haven't. In my world there would be no minimum wage,
unions, or about 99% of the government regulations.



But our society is not like "in your world". It is exactly how it is
now, screwed up.

That is *NOT* why it's screwed up. It's screwed up because people
won't take care of their own. Forget what the other guy makes. It's
irrelevant.

Exactly, spending less money on education and more on entertainment is a
make me feel good NOW habit. I'll let the government take care of me
after I have spent my rainy day money.

Nonsense. I have plenty of money to do both and choose to save for
the future, to boot. The problem is that government makes a golden
hammock out of the safety net.

And every one spends exactly like you.

Learn to take care of yourself or suffer the consequences. It really
is that simple.


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.

Usually, one makes some mistakes and fixes them. One has to care,
though. With the golden hammock, the motivation is greatly reduced,
though.


I will admit that I did not get a thorough education but I have been
very comfortably retired for 20 years since age 40 and have been totally
debt free since 1997.

So you admit that it's possible. ;-)


LOL, but only with the help of a spread sheet program and my first
computer in 1986.

Spreadsheets just make more complicated messes. If you can't solve a
problem without one, you can't solve it with one.

I painted a picture on a spread sheet of what refinancing and adding
extra money with each payment would save me and for me it saved me 14
years off of an original 30 year mortgage. That was 6 years into that
30 year mortgage.

Interest tables will do the same thing.

I showed this spread sheet to 5 relatives, friends, and my boss.
All but one began the process of paying their homes off early almost
immediately after I showed them how to do this. Shockingly, my boss/the
owner of the company, accelerated payments to the tune of 10K per month
and paid his house of within the year. I could not believe that he had
not thought of this himself.

Really! Owners tend to be quite conservative, financially, and know
the time value of money.

Anyway, 2 years after I retired my wife and I paid our house off after
16 total years. We originally had a 30 year mortgage and began working
to accelerate payments, 6 years later, by first refinancing to 15 years
and then paying extra with each payment.

We paid our AL home from a $150K mortgage down to $30K in the three
years we lived there. We could have paid this one off when that sold
but bought two cars with cash, instead. Our mortgage is less than
$30K now and it will be paid off shortly.

So if you spend your money wisely you get to keep more of it. But our
society does not promote this way of thinking. I think better educators
that don't have to play baby sitters could teach this.
This needs to be taught.

Good idea. There are many things that need to be taught but it's not
going to happen in the schools.

I was once described by a home salesman as un-American when I paid cash
for my next home. He was kidding of course but that comment told me a lot.

He was kidding. It's not unusual, at all, for people to pay cash for
homes. A quick search finds an article that states that 42% of
purchases were cash transactions in Nov '13.

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/nea...ash-2013-08-29

On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:


My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
long before he started college.


In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
to live your daily life with the house paid off.

On 03/26/2015 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And how do you learn to take care of your self???, sometimes it needs
to be taught in your education.


I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this
kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.




I can agree but is shocking how damn few parents don't know this because
they were never taught. To learn, it is helpful if the teacher knows
more than you. Unfortunately dumb educators breed dumb students, and
then they have kids and then they teach.....

1. Teaching Math In 1950s

A logger sells a

truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production

is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?



2. Teaching Math In 1970s


A logger sells a

truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production

is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?



3. Teaching Math In 1980s


A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit ?

Yes or No





4. Teaching Math In 1990s


A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is $80 and his profit is

$20

Your assignment: Underline the number 20.


5. Teaching Math In 2000s


A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and

inconsiderate and cares nothing

for the habitat of animals or the

preservation of our woodlands.

He does this so he can make a profit of

$20. What do you think of this

way of making a living? Topic for

class participation after

answering the question: How did the birds

and squirrels feel as the logger

cut down their homes? (There are no

wrong answers, and if you feel

like crying, it's ok).



6. Teaching Math In 2050


هاتشيرو تبيع كارلواد من نهاب 100
دولار . تكل�ة الإنتاج هو 80
دولاراً . كي� الكثيرمن المال ولم؟





--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 9:57:20 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/26/2015 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:


My son graduated with his masters degree in accounting when he was 22.
In the next 5 months he passed all 4 of his CPA exams with a 92 average,
all before having his first real full time job. He had been picked out
a year earlier to come to work for a big 4 accounting firm. He bought
our home from us at market value in Oct 2010. To save paying PMI he put
enough cash down to skip that expense. By the summer of 2013 he paid
that mortgage off. At age 25 he was debt free and a home owner. He was
very successful in college but I think he knew how to handle his money
long before he started college.


In recent years there have been many problems with home values,
mortgages, etc. Anyone watching the news know what I mean. What gets
me is the 65 year old couple with a big mortgage problem. WTF? Why do
they still have a mortgage at that age? It does not take a lot of brain
power to know your income will go down when you retire and it is easier
to live your daily life with the house paid off.

It is not a given that a person's income will go down when they retire. With proper planning a person can have as much, or even more income, when they retire. I see it all the time.

In addition, if you can make more money by investing your money when mortgage rates are low, retaining the mortgage makes sense. Is there more risk? Possibly, but with a properly designed portfolio, one that allows you ride out the rough times, a lot of that risk can be mitigated. Do some people want the peace of mind that the house is paid of? Yes. If it helps you sleep better knowing that it is paid off, then by all means get rid of the mortgage, even if you are paying 3% and making 5%.

Even extremely rich people take out mortgages when they can get a rate that is lower than they can make with the same money. Why tie up millions in a home when they can invest it in a profitable business? That strategy works on smaller scales also.

On 3/26/2015 12:25 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

I'm of the school of thought that this is one of the fundamental problem
points. It should not the be obligation of a school to teach this kind of
thing - that is the job of parents and family. I believe it is when we
delegate this kind of upbringing to governments, schools and social
institutions, that everything starts to go to hell.


After all, teaching our children how to think puts our government at risk.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)