Hello all,

I was in a tool shop t'other day (Axminster) and noticed a lovely
display of Festool tools, so naturally I went over to have a sneaky
grope and see what all the fuss is about. They are clearly a cut above
the kind of power tool I am used to using (just hobby & DIY) but...
the prices! THE PRICES! Why are they so expensive? They are
undoubtedly nice units, but they seem to be inordinately expensive -
500 quid for a cordless driver, 120 quid for an LED work lamp, etc
etc... The most expensive thing I saw was a router for 700-and-
something pounds.

So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Thanks in advance,

David.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800, David Paste wrote:

o why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Do you believe the old saying that the last 15% of the project is 85% of
the cost? Or do you prefer the one that says sell the sizzle and not the
steak?

Take your pick :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 00:13:48 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800, David Paste wrote:

o why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Do you believe the old saying that the last 15% of the project is 85% of
the cost? Or do you prefer the one that says sell the sizzle and not the
steak?

Take your pick :-).

Let us know when you get around to an actual answer, LB.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On 2/1/2012 5:46 PM, David Paste wrote:
Hello all,

I was in a tool shop t'other day (Axminster) and noticed a lovely
display of Festool tools, so naturally I went over to have a sneaky
grope and see what all the fuss is about. They are clearly a cut above
the kind of power tool I am used to using (just hobby& DIY) but...
the prices! THE PRICES! Why are they so expensive? They are
undoubtedly nice units, but they seem to be inordinately expensive -
500 quid for a cordless driver, 120 quid for an LED work lamp, etc
etc... The most expensive thing I saw was a router for 700-and-
something pounds.

So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Thanks in advance,

David.

If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.

If you are a pro and or make a living with your tools you will find that
the price is reasonable.

Festool is one of a few manufacturers that has enough pride in what it
does to actually design and manufacture the product themselves.
Naturally they know what they are doing, know how to build a tool, and
that is going to cost more money than buying a "clone tool" made in China.

Where time is money, Festool delivers top quality results in less time.

Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine doing
them in less than an hour.

Imagine sanding with a belt sander. Now imagine sanding with a finish
sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
noise by comparison.

Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular
saw. Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table
saw, makes plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster than
a jointer, and contains 95% of the saw dust.

Imagine a shop vac. Now imagine a dust extractor that has a hepa
filter, so quiet that you cannot hear it running when working with a
connected power tool, and allows you to stack all of your power tools in
top.

Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply
stops turning and sounds a tone to indicate that you have reached the
desired torque setting and will not continue until you release and pull
the trigger again, one that has a right angle, eccentric, quick change
chuck for drivers, and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

On 2/1/2012 6:26 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

Not to mention that with the 30 day money back guarantee you can't be
fooled into buying something that does not live up to or beyond your
expectations.

Leon wrote:


If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.


A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying tools
that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do is
tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."

Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.

--

-Mike-

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 2/1/2012 5:46 PM, David Paste wrote:

If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.

If you are a pro and or make a living with your tools you will find that
the price is reasonable.

Festool is one of a few manufacturers that has enough pride in what it
does to actually design and manufacture the product themselves. Naturally
they know what they are doing, know how to build a tool, and that is going
to cost more money than buying a "clone tool" made in China.

Where time is money, Festool delivers top quality results in less time.

Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine doing
them in less than an hour.

Imagine sanding with a belt sander. Now imagine sanding with a finish
sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
noise by comparison.

Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular saw.
Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table saw, makes
plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster than a jointer,
and contains 95% of the saw dust.

Imagine a shop vac. Now imagine a dust extractor that has a hepa filter,
so quiet that you cannot hear it running when working with a connected
power tool, and allows you to stack all of your power tools in top.

Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply stops
turning and sounds a tone to indicate that you have reached the desired
torque setting and will not continue until you release and pull the
trigger again, one that has a right angle, eccentric, quick change chuck
for drivers, and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

Leon,

Sounds like you could be supplementing your income by being a copy writer
for Festool. ;~)

One of my local associates, whom has a commercial shop, has a shelf unit
full of Festool in his shop. I recently saw him sell off some Dewalt
tools... Seems he found the same things you did...

John

If it will make you feel better, they are expensive in
US dollars also.

They are also very nice tools.


On 2/1/2012 3:46 PM, David Paste wrote:
Hello all,

I was in a tool shop t'other day (Axminster) and noticed a lovely
display of Festool tools, so naturally I went over to have a sneaky
grope and see what all the fuss is about. They are clearly a cut above
the kind of power tool I am used to using (just hobby& DIY) but...
the prices! THE PRICES! Why are they so expensive? They are
undoubtedly nice units, but they seem to be inordinately expensive -
500 quid for a cordless driver, 120 quid for an LED work lamp, etc
etc... The most expensive thing I saw was a router for 700-and-
something pounds.

So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Thanks in advance,

David.

So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

Thanks in advance,

David.

Very nice tools. However you pay for not only for the quality but also
the reality of doing business in Europe.

On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.


A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying tools
that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do is
tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."

Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.


Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it
all meant.

I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in a
reasonably responsible way.

On 2/2/2012 8:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 2/1/2012 5:46 PM, David Paste wrote:

If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.

If you are a pro and or make a living with your tools you will find
that the price is reasonable.

Festool is one of a few manufacturers that has enough pride in what it
does to actually design and manufacture the product themselves.
Naturally they know what they are doing, know how to build a tool, and
that is going to cost more money than buying a "clone tool" made in
China.

Where time is money, Festool delivers top quality results in less time.

Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine
doing them in less than an hour.

Imagine sanding with a belt sander. Now imagine sanding with a finish
sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
noise by comparison.

Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular
saw. Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table
saw, makes plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster
than a jointer, and contains 95% of the saw dust.

Imagine a shop vac. Now imagine a dust extractor that has a hepa
filter, so quiet that you cannot hear it running when working with a
connected power tool, and allows you to stack all of your power tools
in top.

Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply
stops turning and sounds a tone to indicate that you have reached the
desired torque setting and will not continue until you release and
pull the trigger again, one that has a right angle, eccentric, quick
change chuck for drivers, and will continue to run if you drop it in a
bucket of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

Leon,

Sounds like you could be supplementing your income by being a copy
writer for Festool. ;~)

One of my local associates, whom has a commercial shop, has a shelf unit
full of Festool in his shop. I recently saw him sell off some Dewalt
tools... Seems he found the same things you did...

John

LOL I should send that in to Festool!

On a serious note though I was never really aware of Festool, not on the
radar.

Then one day many years ago, 6 or 7, Robatoy showed me a link to the
German Festool site, all in German, that showed a video of a tool for
creating mortises. And at that time he was going on and on and on about
this Rotex, feminine product sounding name, sander.

When the Domino was introduced here, in English but not yet available, I
decided I was going to buy one. Ah but you need to use a vac with it
and my days of listening to the inexpensive shop vac's were over so I
bought the Festool CT22 dust extractor and the Domino assortment. I
dropped major money on those three items.

Damn, the vac worked much better than expected and it was quiet. These
tools are great and fast!


A year later came the Rotex sander, several months later small finish
sander. No more dust!

Christmas two years ago Swingman got the bug and was "bad sick" with
Festool need. He bought the CT22 dust extractor, T75 Track saw,
accessory kit, other tracks, Rotex sander and finish sander.

I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

Last Christmas I added the T15-3 Festool Drill.

Dave writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

scott

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:

Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine doing
them in less than an hour.

Yes, I'd use my horizontal morticer, or benchtop morticer or if I had one,
a chain morticer. None of which cost as much as the Domino (well the chain
morticer would have to have been a used model, of course).


Imagine sanding with a belt sander.

Don't have one, never needed one. Now a wide-belt sander or good drum
sander on the other hand ...

Now imagine sanding with a finish
sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
noise by comparison.

How about a card scraper, #80, #81 or #112? Or a PC 7336 6" right-angle ROS
with dust collection kit if you must use power?


Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular
saw.

These two thoughts don't go together.

Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table
saw, makes plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster than
a jointer, and contains 95% of the saw dust.

But if I already have a jointer, cabinet saw, and a dust collector, why do I need this?



Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.


I witness this every time I use these tools.

That's nice, but still you've given me no reason to purchase the festool
stuff. I haven't seen it in the pro cabinet shops that I frequent,
either.

scott

On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

There are some things that you just have to experience to understand. ;~)



As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

Absolutely. I sell a majority of my work. In the last 4 years I have
used in excess of 1800 Domino tenons in just the 5mm thick size. That
works out to 3600 mortises. In a bed that I built this last summer with
under mount drawers I cut 112 precisely placed mortices in the upper
sections of the headboards. 56 of those mortices were in the ends of
1.5" wide slats. I did that in less than 1 hour. And no a Plate
joiner/biscuit jointer would not have worked. I needed these slats to
be stationary during glue up and assembly, I had 28 separate joints, 56
tennons all coming together at one time during glue up. With biscuits I
would have had parts falling out.
Using a mortiser I suspect that at best that would have been an all day
job so that saved me at least $315 of my time. That was 112 mortices
and I have cut well in excess of 3600 in the last 4 years.
You can do the math here but I am able to turn out higher quality work
much more quickly with the Domino.

If you are a hobbyist the savings will be significantly less unless you
are short on work shop time and you value your free time.


I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

Well to be fair and comparing apples to apples, the new Rolls is going
to cost 10 times more than the average new car.

A new Festool is only about 2.5 times more expensive than the average
new brand power tool.

And as I mentioned above you really have to work with the tool to
appreciate the difference. When you spend all day week in the shop week
after week Festool proves itself time and again.

On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:

Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine doing
them in less than an hour.

Yes, I'd use my horizontal morticer, or benchtop morticer or if I had one,
a chain morticer. None of which cost as much as the Domino (well the chain
morticer would have to have been a used model, of course).


Go time yourself and cut 200 1/4" by 1" by 1" mortices with any of the
tools that would cost less than a Domino.

Then how long will it take to cut the 100 tenons to fit precicely with
no play?

I am not buying it just considering cutting the mortises.




Imagine sanding with a belt sander.

Don't have one, never needed one. Now a wide-belt sander or good drum
sander on the other hand ...

Given enough time you can sand anything to conform with a block of wood
and sand paper.


Now imagine sanding with a finish
sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
noise by comparison.

How about a card scraper, #80, #81 or #112? Or a PC 7336 6" right-angle ROS
with dust collection kit if you must use power?

If you are into that kind of thing and have plenty of time. I have the
older version of the PC 7336 right angle sander. I used it from 1989
until about 3 years ago. It was a very good sander. The Rotex was the
first right angle sander that I saw that was significantly better.



Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular
saw.

These two thoughts don't go together.

Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table
saw, makes plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster than
a jointer, and contains 95% of the saw dust.

But if I already have a jointer, cabinet saw, and a dust collector, why do I need this?

I use mine to cut sheets of plywood to finish sizes by myself. I use
mine to cut odd angle and taper cuts that are difficult at best on a TS.
It makes life easier.



Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
quick drive change attachment?





I witness this every time I use these tools.

That's nice, but still you've given me no reason to purchase the festool
stuff. I haven't seen it in the pro cabinet shops that I frequent,
either.

scott


Well Scott I am not trying to sell you on buying Festool, I simply
stated why I bought Festool and how it is a benefit to me.

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if necessary.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.


A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying
tools
that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do
is
tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."

Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.


Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it all
meant.

I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in a
reasonably responsible way.

Three comments;

First; I know exactly what is meant about a crap tool that won't die. Why
is it when you have a tool you want to die, it lives forever? And a tool
you want to live, it dies? Sorta like some people I can think of...

Second; I had a couple of the PC sanders. After using them for a day or
two, may hand would go numb. Particularly that vertical finish sander.
They may have been state of the art at one time, but they did not like my
hands! Porter Cable became irrelevant years ago. Good Riddance!

Third; I can't help but wonder, where does the guy who buys Leon's tools at
a garage sale fit in the hierarchy of woodworkers? I know that Leon is at
the top of the pecking order. I guess this guy is about half way between
Festool and Sears Craftsman.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:47:12 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if necessary.

When I first got the Rotek sander it threw me for a loop. I was
used to judging how much had been done by the sawdust. I had to keep
checking to be sure it was sanding because there wasn't any sawdust.

Mike M

On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

scott

perfect analogy. I agree. I don't buy pioneer stereos or monster
cables either.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/2/2012 4:46 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

scott

perfect analogy. I agree. I don't buy pioneer stereos or monster cables
either.

It is a good analogy but is is not a good comparison.



Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people could
actually miss the teeney weeney looking uninsulated wire that protruded
out of the clear "MAGNIFYING" insulation.

On 2/2/2012 2:07 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
quality and a tool that will last.


A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying
tools
that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to
do is
tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."

Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to
die.


Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it
all meant.

I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in
a reasonably responsible way.

Three comments;

First; I know exactly what is meant about a crap tool that won't die.
Why is it when you have a tool you want to die, it lives forever? And a
tool you want to live, it dies? Sorta like some people I can think of...

It might be because we actually avoid using it and can clearly remember
the hell we had with it when we used it last.


Second; I had a couple of the PC sanders. After using them for a day or
two, may hand would go numb. Particularly that vertical finish sander.
They may have been state of the art at one time, but they did not like
my hands! Porter Cable became irrelevant years ago. Good Riddance!

I had the ones that worked. The Old SpeedBloc and the original right
angle ROS. The SpeedBloc did not vibrate too much but man that thing
would raise a cloud of dust. I remember going from the SpeedBloc to the
Festool Finish sander and thinking the Festool sander was not doing any
thing. I had to learn/remember that the vac was collecting all of the
dust. I used the dust as my indicator of progress when using the SpeedBloc





Third; I can't help but wonder, where does the guy who buys Leon's tools
at a garage sale fit in the hierarchy of woodworkers? I know that Leon
is at the top of the pecking order. I guess this guy is about half way
between Festool and Sears Craftsman.

That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
scooped up at once.

On 2/2/2012 4:00 PM, Mike M wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:47:12 -0600, wrote:

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if necessary.

When I first got the Rotek sander it threw me for a loop. I was
used to judging how much had been done by the sawdust. I had to keep
checking to be sure it was sanding because there wasn't any sawdust.

Mike M

LOL I just got through mentioning that about the Festool detail sander.

I did not have as much trouble with the Rotex which I got first as it is
relative easy to see the progress on the work. Going to a finish sander
where you are not reshaping so to speak really concerned me.

AND THE PAPER! It seldom looks worn out, I had to learn to give it a
finger feel on a regular basis.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 2/2/2012 2:07 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


Third; I can't help but wonder, where does the guy who buys Leon's tools
at a garage sale fit in the hierarchy of woodworkers? I know that Leon
is at the top of the pecking order. I guess this guy is about half way
between Festool and Sears Craftsman.

That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
scooped up at once.


I think all the stationary tools I've sold off have ended up with people who
basically never used them after buying them... They were decent tools for
what they were, e.g., Jet contractor saw with XActa fence and Biesemeyer
T-Splitter, Reliant 6" jointer, the original Dewalt thickness planer. I
think perhaps the purchasers thought woodworking sounded like a good idea
but never really followed through...

John

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
the street daily tool swap.

On 2/2/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
the street daily tool swap.

He let me touche it. Two times! ;~)

THE SAW!

On 02 Feb 2012 18:00:54 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

Admittedly, there's varying degrees of betterness when it comes to
certain Festool products. But then, I do own a DeWalt 18v drill and
don't yet own any Festool drills. For all I know, Festool is markedly
better, but I'll leave that to someone else to expound.

On 2/2/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
the street daily tool swap.

Yabbut, he won't let me toush his new drill, man!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
scooped up at once.

After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

On 2/2/2012 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 4:46 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

scott

perfect analogy. I agree. I don't buy pioneer stereos or monster cables
either.

It is a good analogy but is is not a good comparison.



Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people could
actually miss the teeney weeney looking uninsulated wire that protruded
out of the clear "MAGNIFYING" insulation.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.

On 02/02/2012 05:10 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 4:00 PM, Mike M wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:47:12 -0600, wrote:

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if
necessary.

When I first got the Rotek sander it threw me for a loop. I was
used to judging how much had been done by the sawdust. I had to keep
checking to be sure it was sanding because there wasn't any sawdust.

Mike M

LOL I just got through mentioning that about the Festool detail sander.

I did not have as much trouble with the Rotex which I got first as it is
relative easy to see the progress on the work. Going to a finish sander
where you are not reshaping so to speak really concerned me.

AND THE PAPER! It seldom looks worn out, I had to learn to give it a
finger feel on a regular basis.

Did you wear one of those festering proctologist gloves?


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article ,
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in water g

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article
,
David Paste wrote:
Hello all,

I was in a tool shop t'other day (Axminster) and noticed a lovely
display of Festool tools, so naturally I went over to have a sneaky
grope and see what all the fuss is about. They are clearly a cut above
the kind of power tool I am used to using (just hobby & DIY) but...
the prices! THE PRICES! Why are they so expensive? They are
undoubtedly nice units, but they seem to be inordinately expensive -
500 quid for a cordless driver, 120 quid for an LED work lamp, etc
etc... The most expensive thing I saw was a router for 700-and-
something pounds.

I too have seen then in my local Axminster (Nuneaton), the prices make me
fall about laughing.

They're made for bankers.

Who else could possibly have the money to spend so much on a tool to do
the same job I can do with my Trend and DeWalt tools

So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article ,
Scott Lurndal wrote:
I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

Indeed

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/2/2012 8:00 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.






So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

On 2/2/2012 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 4:46 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
money?

It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
less so is reasonably fine.

Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
unique tool.

If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
Festool owners.

I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
the price?

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

scott

perfect analogy. I agree. I don't buy pioneer stereos or monster cables
either.

It is a good analogy but is is not a good comparison.



Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people could
actually miss the teeney weeney looking uninsulated wire that protruded
out of the clear "MAGNIFYING" insulation.

On 2/2/2012 9:13 PM, Markem wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.

Buy heavier gauge lamp cord for better equipment. I am not sure Monster
cable makes cable as high of gauge as what you can buy in bulk although
I have not looked at monster cable fin a very long time.

I could certainly tell the difference between regular speaker wire and
14 gauge lamp cord. IIRC the highs were more crisp.

On 2/2/2012 7:39 PM, Dave wrote:
On 02 Feb 2012 18:00:54 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.

Admittedly, there's varying degrees of betterness when it comes to
certain Festool products. But then, I do own a DeWalt 18v drill and
don't yet own any Festool drills. For all I know, Festool is markedly
better, but I'll leave that to someone else to expound.

My original real cordless drill was a Panasonic, then a DeWalt followed
by another DeWalt and than I turned to a Makita.

Of those listed the Panasonic was a hands down winner, the electronics
and brake were far superior to any of others. The Panasonic would
actually apply the brake to the chuck when slowing down quickly, you
could here it engage just like you had let go of the trigger however it
would continue to spin at the lower speed. Basically the chuck did not
coast down to speed it instantly went to that speed.
My batteries for the 12 volt Makita had been replaced once and it was
time to get rebuild them again. It is 7 years old. Other than that I
was happy with it and the same age Makita impact driver.

For Christmas my wife bought me the T15-3 Festool drill. I have been
interested in that series since they had been introduced a few years ago.
The T15-3 Festool by far is the best quality, strongest, and most
versatile drill of all that I have owned. Its electronics and brake are
similar if not better than the one on the Panasonic. The clutch is far
superior with it being electronic vs. the slipping clutch. When the
desired clutch settin is reached the drill stops until you release and
pull the trigger again. The brushless motor design seems to perform
above average as advertised. I have yet to use my impact driver since
Christmas. In the past I have always drilled pocket holes with a corded
drill for speed. The Festool drill does this with greater ease and with
no bogging down even in oak
I have used the eccentric attachment 1 time and the right angle
attachment at least 4 times in the last month. The drill comes with 2,
3amp Lithium Ion batteries. They stay in a relatively warm garage so I
have not had any issues with them yet.
So I really really like the drill.

On 2/2/2012 9:55 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 02/02/2012 05:10 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 4:00 PM, Mike M wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:47:12 -0600, wrote:

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.

Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
$575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric
and
quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good
to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally
saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if
necessary.

When I first got the Rotek sander it threw me for a loop. I was
used to judging how much had been done by the sawdust. I had to keep
checking to be sure it was sanding because there wasn't any sawdust.

Mike M

LOL I just got through mentioning that about the Festool detail sander.

I did not have as much trouble with the Rotex which I got first as it is
relative easy to see the progress on the work. Going to a finish sander
where you are not reshaping so to speak really concerned me.

AND THE PAPER! It seldom looks worn out, I had to learn to give it a
finger feel on a regular basis.

Did you wear one of those festering proctologist gloves?


Noo000000ooooooo. I did not have to insert my finger, merely stroke it. ;~)

On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
In articlew8GdnTekSuLtF7fSnZ2dnUVZ5t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in waterg

No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it
submerged in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube