On 2/7/2012 1:27 PM, Robatoy wrote:

Ceros 68 dB. Nice and quiet. A tool that cannot be described with
words alone. So small, so powerful, so modern. Absolutely state of the
art.

Have certainly heard a lot of good things about it, and with your seal
of approval with all that counter top experience, I can imagine what a
top notch tool it indeed is.

But with three Festool sanders already, I will have pass ... for the
time being.

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
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On 2/7/2012 1:24 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:19 pm, wrote:

In my way of thinking, the XL would be hard to justify. (Unless I had a
ton of work for it, of course.)

Other than that, what am I missing?

Doors, gates, large tables, pure ass tool envy.


LMAO... PATE, eh? How does the PATE rating of the XL compare to the
MR? *ducking*

With a Multi-Router in the shop I may never know (or should that be "may
I never know"?)

When working in the closet I'm in now I do like the idea of bringing the
tool to the material, instead of vice versa.

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On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:41:12 -0600, Swingman wrote:
But with three Festool sanders already, I will have pass ... for the
time being.

Trade em to Leon. Then you can afford the Ceros. After that, you can
borrow during the street swap

On 2/7/2012 1:47 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:41:12 -0600, wrote:
But with three Festool sanders already, I will have pass ... for the
time being.

Trade em to Leon. Then you can afford the Ceros. After that, you can
borrow during the street swap

I don't know, gotta keep my options open.

As a buyer, every horse I ever negotiated a sale on was a worn out,
spavined, cribbing, wind broke, sway back, lame old nag; later, when
selling that same animal, it was the absolute picture of sound equine
perfection.

Gotta keep your perspective too.

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On Feb 7, 2:41*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 1:27 PM, Robatoy wrote:

Ceros 68 dB. Nice and quiet. A tool that cannot be described with
words alone. So small, so powerful, so modern. Absolutely state of the
art.

Have certainly heard a lot of good things about it, and with your seal
of approval with all that counter top experience, I can imagine what a
top notch tool it indeed is.

But with three Festool sanders already, I will have pass ... for the
time being.

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I sold most of my Festoool sanders when I sold the company. I kept one
Rotex, but it is/was in need of a complete overhaul. Quoted overhaul
around $ 150.00, which would have returned to basically new status.
So I looked at a $ 150 discount on the Ceros if I opted not to fix the
Festool (Yes, tool-junkie math)
Neither you nor Leon will ever wear your Rotex sanders out like mine
did in a countertop shop, so to think upgrade to Ceros wouldn't be
rational.

Whatever you do, don't ever handle a Ceros (like at a trade show or
somesuch), because 'rational' may become hard to come by...LOL
That remote DC power-supply technology is not going to go unnoticed by
the Festool gang either, so expect an answer from them soon.

Interesting point, the Ceros dust port, is 100% compatible with 1.1/4
Festool. I do not know if the powersupply will trigger the autostart
on the CT's

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:07:28 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
Interesting point, the Ceros dust port, is 100% compatible with 1.1/4
Festool. I do not know if the powersupply will trigger the autostart
on the CT's

I use my CT22 with my Micro-Mark mini tablesaw, so no reason why a
Ceros shouldn't work with it. Just as long as the amperage
requirements and the mating plugs are compatible.

On 2/7/2012 9:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 7:43 AM, Leon wrote:


The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.


Are you going to switch to the XL when it comes out?


Switch NOoooooo. Your turn to buy one. We can to that middle of the
street swap every one is referring to all the time, should the need come
up. :~)

On 2/7/2012 12:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 12:34 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:23:41 -0600, wrote:
Are you going to switch to the XL when it comes out?

That's been discussed frequently on the FOG. The general consensus is
that the XL will not replace the original version because of the great
size differences in the dominos biscuits themselves.


Shhh ... don't let Leon hear that. I was trying to set up a deal on his
old, POS, overused, wornout, soon to be obsolete, Domino!


$800 and it is yours! These things appreciate in value.

No, and seriously it is yours to borrow any time you ask.

On 2/7/2012 1:05 PM, Robatoy wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 2/7/2012 12:34 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:23:41 -0600, wrote:
Are you going to switch to the XL when it comes out?

That's been discussed frequently on the FOG. The general consensus is
that the XL will not replace the original version because of the great
size differences in the dominos biscuits themselves.


Shhh ... don't let Leon hear that. I was trying to set up a deal on his
old, POS, overused, wornout, soon to be obsolete, Domino!

I have been watching a few European videos about the XL and it would
appear to me that one wouldn't want to get rid of the 'old' Domino.
That XL would work well in boat building, outdoor furniture and other
big projects. If I had to pick just one, it would still be the old style
Domino.
In my way of thinking, the XL would be hard to justify. (Unless I had a
ton of work for it, of course.)

Other than that, what am I missing?

I think I would use it for fence building, maybe timber frame
construction. ;~)

On 2/7/2012 1:47 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:41:12 -0600, wrote:
But with three Festool sanders already, I will have pass ... for the
time being.

Trade em to Leon. Then you can afford the Ceros. After that, you can
borrow during the street swap

I don't need 2 of everything. LOL

On 2/7/2012 11:47 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:39 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

gotcha! ordering one now. Oh wait! i don't have any neighbors and i
don't drink. what to do now?

Put your order in anyway ... you will soon have neighbors, and the beer
drinking will follow.

Just ask Leon if that is not how that works.


my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out how
to join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red oak
approx 1x3's. (it's a large frame).


Domino of course. LOL Actually pocket hole screws will work if they
are flat backed.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:30:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I think I would use it for fence building, maybe timber frame
construction. ;~)

Have you done many for lack of a better name, "high end fence
contracts"? That's what I'd call fence constructions that dispensed
with nails or screws and used Domino biscuits.

On 2/7/2012 3:01 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:30:50 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I think I would use it for fence building, maybe timber frame
construction. ;~)

Have you done many for lack of a better name, "high end fence
contracts"? That's what I'd call fence constructions that dispensed
with nails or screws and used Domino biscuits.

When you have a hammer, everything looks lik......

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Last update: 4/15/2010
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On 2/7/2012 1:00 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 11:47:27 -0600, Steve Barker
my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out
how to join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red
oak approx 1x3's. (it's a large frame).

And, if you're looking for easy, you might try one of these. I bought
one and it works a treat, even with larger mitered edges. You just
insert several of the V-nails.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...13&cat=1,43293



even in oak? I can't imagine driving something like that into red oak.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/7/2012 2:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:47 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:39 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

gotcha! ordering one now. Oh wait! i don't have any neighbors and i
don't drink. what to do now?

Put your order in anyway ... you will soon have neighbors, and the beer
drinking will follow.

Just ask Leon if that is not how that works.


my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out how
to join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red oak
approx 1x3's. (it's a large frame).


Domino of course. LOL Actually pocket hole screws will work if they are
flat backed.


If i wanted to buy a domino, i'd buy a damn picture frame. LOL!! I
thought about screws at first, but now leaning towards dowels. About 3
in each corner.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/7/2012 12:09 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:47 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:39 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

gotcha! ordering one now. Oh wait! i don't have any neighbors and i
don't drink. what to do now?

Put your order in anyway ... you will soon have neighbors, and the beer
drinking will follow.

Just ask Leon if that is not how that works.


my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out how
to join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red oak
approx 1x3's. (it's a large frame).

Just some options:

Biscuits are the fastest, simplest, and cheapest (providing you already
own a plate joiner). This large frame was done with biscuits:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...tiveEffort2011


As was this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...60428478601266


Splines are also very easy to do on a table saw with a simple jig and do
a fairly effective job of strengthening an inherently weak joint.

http://e-woodshop.net/images/SplineJig.jpg

And here is a result of a one type of spline in these trivet miter joints:

http://e-woodshop.net/images/Trivets6.jpg

A Domino works well also, and is arguably stronger that the above methods.

Half lapped miter joints gives you much more glue surface area, but are
pretty tricky to do without a lot of trial and error if you haven't done
it before. Here is our very own wRec'er, Brian Grella, of Garage
Woodworks with a video on how to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7MBWrrE-2k



thanks for all the info!

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:19:12 -0600, Steve Barker
even in oak? I can't imagine driving something like that into red oak.

I can't answer that since I've only used it on pine. However, the LV
website says they can be used on softwood and *most* hardwoods. I
venture a guess that they would work on oak.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:26:19 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Agreed. AAMOF, there is no equipment in the current "state of the art"
that has brought us any closer to faithfully recording/reproducing
content as experienced by the human ear.

And _the removal of frequency content inherent in the source material_ ,
in an effort to do, so has arguably gotten us further from that ultimate
goal.

(BTW, your keyboard types as bad as mine)

PEBKBAC

On 2/7/2012 11:47 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:39 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

gotcha! ordering one now. Oh wait! i don't have any neighbors and i
don't drink. what to do now?

Put your order in anyway ... you will soon have neighbors, and the beer
drinking will follow.

Just ask Leon if that is not how that works.


my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out how to
join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red oak approx
1x3's. (it's a large frame).

I like this kind of joint:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...in/photostream

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 2/7/2012 3:01 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:30:50 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I think I would use it for fence building, maybe timber frame
construction. ;~)

Have you done many for lack of a better name, "high end fence
contracts"? That's what I'd call fence constructions that dispensed
with nails or screws and used Domino biscuits.

I build a better than average fence. The Dominoes would be in addition
to metal fasteners.

On 2/7/2012 6:51 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:47 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2012 11:39 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

gotcha! ordering one now. Oh wait! i don't have any neighbors and i
don't drink. what to do now?

Put your order in anyway ... you will soon have neighbors, and the beer
drinking will follow.

Just ask Leon if that is not how that works.


my woodworking is in it's infancy. I'm still working on figuring out
how to
join the mitered corners of a picture frame i built out of red oak approx
1x3's. (it's a large frame).

I like this kind of joint:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...in/photostream


Yeah... that would be a simple one, or not...LOL...Maybe not as hard as
it looks.

On 2/7/2012 1:09 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:07 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:37:47 -0600, wrote:
Shhh ... don't let Leon hear that. I was trying to set up a deal on his
old, POS, overused, wornout, soon to be obsolete, Domino!

Why? You two meet in the middle of the street every morning for the
daily tool swap anyway. Has Leon been holding out on you lately?

Now I'm wondering what other nifty tools he's been hoarding in his
workshop?

I won't be lending this one out:
http://www.woodessence.com/Mirka-CER...r-P186C59.aspx

Interesting. When I first saw the picture I thought it operated similar to a
Dremel or a Foredom with a cable and remote motor. The Mirka has mass and
ergonomics that are similar to the pneumatic Dynabrade sanders, and I can
attest to that being a very good thing:

http://www.abrasivesupply.com/Dynabr...ers_ s/61.htm

I really like the Dynabrades, but I'd be interested to see how the Mirka
compares. One thing I don't like about the Mirka is that you only have a
single (3/16") orbital pattern to choose from; Dynabrade offers 3/32", 3/16",
and 3/8" models. I use 3/32" Dynabrades extensively when making my rocking
chairs, and I do NOT like the models with the 3/16" orbital pattern; they can
"bang" up against perpendicular surfaces rather violently. Nor does Mirka
make a 3-1/2" model, which is a heavenly little machine to use. I'd imagine
that the Mirka would be cheaper to operate, because the Dynabrades gobble up
quite a bit of air and require a pretty hefty (and noisy!) air compressor.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

That would be "capacitive" load.

-----------
"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
an **inductive** load (however small) which will affect that complex
impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
wires.

You knew him when you were designing thankless water heaters, too?

LOL
-----------
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Yep, ol' Fletch even managed to get his own button on almost every consumer
amplifier.
--
www.ewoodshop.com

I have always used "zip" cord (never heard that term before) 'cause it's the
cheapest conductor for the buck. The impedance is known and constant unlike
single conductors that vary with their placement and cost monster dollars.
Mind you the gauge has to be heavy for low connection impedance.

When dealing with an 8 Ohm impedance speaker system (3.2 Ohms resistance) a
few milliohms is not a factor in the sound quality of the audio. This has
been proven in lab tests I have seen reports from over the last many
decades.

Next will be the gold plated 1m HDMI cables for $100...LOL The scam artists
always take advantage of the uneducated by mass hype and shills to convince
them of the importance of their engineering accidents. It's called good
"marketing".

On Feb 7, 9:11*pm, "Josepi" wrote:
That would be "capacitive" load.

-----------"Robatoy" *wrote in message

...
Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
an **inductive** load (however small) which will affect that complex
impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
wires.

Wrong, cupcake. An EMF from one conductor setting up an EMF in a
nearby conductor is through induction. (The word 'induce' mean
anything to you?)

Han wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:45 am, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:37 am, Dave wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

Our hearing goes for a crap with age, regardless. That hearing loss
can/will be accelerated when exposed to damaging sound sources of
high level, pitchm duration, etc. A jack-hammer, for instance, won't
cause as much damage as a bitching woman.

LOL!!

Had to go to google to see this. Something wrong on usenet.

Nope - nothing wrong with usenet. Must be your news provider. It was funny
though, wasn't it?

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:25:13 -0600, Swingman wrote:

" wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 00:44:32 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
wrote:

In article ,
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Which is why I said they would have to be specially designed.

If they *could* be. Indeed, if they could be, someone would have done
it.

Just find the money (lots of it probably) and ask B&K

Physics can be a bitch.

Certainly has you confused.

It's you who has been is totally befuddled by Audiophools' bull****.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:23:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/7/2012 7:43 AM, Leon wrote:


The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.

Are you going to switch to the XL when it comes out?

Thinking to catch him at a weak moment and grab that old, worn-out
puppy for a cheap price, ain'tcha, Swingy?

--
Energy and persistence alter all things.
--Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:30:06 -0500, "
It's you who has been is totally befuddled by Audiophools' bull****.

As usual, you can't offer a substantive reply so instead you latch
onto some derogatory insult.

On 2/7/2012 1:09 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:07 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:37:47 -0600, wrote:
Shhh ... don't let Leon hear that. I was trying to set up a deal on his
old, POS, overused, wornout, soon to be obsolete, Domino!

Why? You two meet in the middle of the street every morning for the
daily tool swap anyway. Has Leon been holding out on you lately?

Now I'm wondering what other nifty tools he's been hoarding in his
workshop?

I won't be lending this one out:
http://www.woodessence.com/Mirka-CER...r-P186C59.aspx

Really no worse pricing that the 6" Rotex, so totally doable. ;~)

BUT O.M.G. now it comes with a cap, "which I need", and a tape measure
to apparently measure progress!

On 2/7/2012 9:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

It's you who has been is totally befuddled by Audiophools' bull****.

It was _you_ who didn't even recognize that he was arguing with the
written Red Book audio CD specifications! LOL

Good luck with those self-delusions, Bubba ...

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman admits defeat by the insults technique, once again.


--------------
"Swingman" wrote in message
news
On 2/7/2012 9:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

It's you who has been is totally befuddled by Audiophools' bull****.

It was _you_ who didn't even recognize that he was arguing with the
written Red Book audio CD specifications! LOL

Good luck with those self-delusions, Bubba ...

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:23:09 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/7/2012 9:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

It's you who has been is totally befuddled by Audiophools' bull****.

It was _you_ who didn't even recognize that he was arguing with the
written Red Book audio CD specifications! LOL

You don't read well. The issue isn't the technical specs, rather your
insistence that humans can "sense" above their ability to hear. "Color", and
all that audiophool bull****.

Good luck with those self-delusions, Bubba ...

You're the one who has deluded himself.

On 2/8/2012 7:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:23:09 -0600, wrote:

It was _you_ who didn't even recognize that he was arguing with the
written Red Book audio CD specifications! LOL

You don't read well. The issue isn't the technical specs

All your yammering will never cover up the reality that you were
actively arguing with the _actual wording_ of the Red Book audio CD spec's.

You stepped on your dick with that one, Dude. the Internet will remember
forever, so you might want to let it die.

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:25:12 -0600, Swingman wrote:

" wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:30:07 -0600, Markem wrote:

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 18:44:06 -0500, "
wrote:

Where "represent" == "perfectly reproduce"

I have yet to see the audio equitment either analog or digital that
pefectly reproduces any recorded sounds.

Because the components aren't perfect (or perfectible). The math is.

Nope. Not when you advocate, as you have, removing much of the material
needed for "math" to be used to effect a solution.

Good grief, you're the one who threw around Nyquist, without even
understanding what you were saying. ...and now you're complaining about me
bringing up math? Without understanding the transform from the time domain to
the frequency domain (Fourier), there isn't much point in discussing your
audiophoolery. You're not making *any* sense.

Cutesy little one liners, though ... even if more than a bit shallow.

Dumbass. How's that?

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:11:32 -0600, Swingman wrote:

" wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 16:30:58 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2012 3:19 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:


You obviously wouldn't understand Nyquist if I explained it to you, or you
wouldn't have posted a reference to a site that shows my point.

Let me say it once again:

"An audio CD can represent frequencies up to 22.05 kHz, the Nyquist
frequency of the 44.1 kHz sample rate."

At best, sure. ...as long as your "represent" means *perfectly* reproduce. So
far, so good.

Wrong again ... "represent" is not my term. It is in fact part of the
actual technical definition of the Red Book audio CD standard:

Ok, as long as the "Red Book" means *perfectly* reproducing... The fact
remains.

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users...standard).html

Making your total ignorance of the basics of the issue even more apparent.

You're a liar.

And so now you agree ... meaning you were wrong to begin with and have
publicly admitted it.

No, I'm saying that you can't read. I'm saying that the frequencies above the
"audio range" (20kHz is the nominal value usually taken) don't matter. There
is no "coloring" caused by what you can't hear. *THAT* is audiophoolery.
There is no issue with Nyquist (other than sampling above 40kHz is
unnecessary, if one could make a perfect filter - the reason for 44.1kHz (room
for a filter), and indeed the reason for "oversampling" (cheaper filters).

How much better than *perfect* does a waveform need to be for an audiophool?
IOW, you're arguing my point. Thanks.

It's you that's pwned, Dude.

Again, you can't read what's right in front of you.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:09:37 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/8/2012 7:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:23:09 -0600, wrote:

It was _you_ who didn't even recognize that he was arguing with the
written Red Book audio CD specifications! LOL

You don't read well. The issue isn't the technical specs

All your yammering will never cover up the reality that you were
actively arguing with the _actual wording_ of the Red Book audio CD spec's.

You're a liar.

You stepped on your dick with that one, Dude. the Internet will remember
forever, so you might want to let it die.

No, you can't read.

Dont let'em wind you up with his innocent, you're the villain passive
aggressive nonsense.

------------

wrote in message ...
Again, you can't read what's right in front of you.

On Feb 8, 10:05*pm, "
wrote:

*I'm saying that the frequencies above the
"audio range" (20kHz is the nominal value usually taken) don't matter. *There
is no "coloring" caused by what you can't hear. **THAT* is audiophoolery.

You listen to a sultry flute solo from whatever sound source you
please. *I* will inject 120dB worth of 30KHz sinewave in to the signal
path. 120dB too much? How about 110 dB? Aiming to please here.
If you can't hear that, then you don't need to know anything about
psychoacoustics because you're deaf.