On 2/2/2012 7:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
the street daily tool swap.

Yabbut, he won't let me toush his new drill, man!


You den says you wan'ed to toush it.

On Feb 2, 10:13*pm, Markem wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC..

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.

MonsterCable products are 90% bunk designed and decorated to appeal to
the insecurities of the basic audiophile.
In blind-fold listening tests, conducted by several institutions have
proven with high statistical accuracy that the ears don't give a fark
how much you spent on a frikkin' wire.

Case in point: Ever look at the massive displays of fishing lures at
sporting-type stores.... do you really think fish give a fark? When
fishie is hungry, curious, and something happens to wiggle in front of
it, it'll hit it. It won't check the catalogue first.

Festool, on the other hand, don't subscribe to that type of marketing.
They simply build the best they know how and for that expect to get
paid. Period. So what do the cheap knock-off sunsabiatches do? They
put a little green trim on their tools to lure away the idiots into
thinking that they're getting a 'little Festool' in their purchase.

Don't get me started........

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:36:45 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
wrote:

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

Indeed

Of course Stuart, never in your life have you shown off a new tool to
a friend. Besides that, most of us are using these tools alone in a
workshop. There's really not much showing off.

Who else could possibly have the money to spend so much on a tool to do
the same job I can do with my Trend and DeWalt tools

And by saying that, you've completely missed the point of what many of
us are trying to tell you. That's the fact that you can't do the same
job with your Trend or DeWalt. When you add up the dust collection,
the ease of use and the added capability, those other tools don't
compare.

I know what you naysayers are really thinking. You're afraid that if
you go to one of the free demo days that Festool dealers put on,
you'll like a Festool so much you'll end up buying it. Admit it guys.
You're afraid of joining the club and being razzed for spending so
much.

It's either that or we current Festool owners are so embarrassed by
our spending so much money that we want to draw you guys in to so we
don't feel so bad. Is that it? You think we're a bunch of misery loves
company tool owners?

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:52:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
For Christmas my wife bought me the T15-3 Festool drill.

Nice wife. Does she have an unmarried twin sister?

So I really really like the drill.

Well it's true about what I said to another person who thinks that
Festool is some type of gimmick. I'm afraid I'll like a Festool drill
so much that I'll be forced to buy it. That's why I haven't actually
gone to look at any. If I did, my three other drills would get lonely.
Right now, I refuse to diss my current trusted companion drills.

On Feb 3, 8:37*am, Dave wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

Our hearing goes for a crap with age, regardless. That hearing loss
can/will be accelerated when exposed to damaging sound sources of high
level, pitchm duration, etc. A jack-hammer, for instance, won't cause
as much damage as a bitching woman.

On 2/3/2012 7:31 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:36:45 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
wrote:

I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
showing off than functionality.

Indeed

Of course Stuart, never in your life have you shown off a new tool to
a friend. Besides that, most of us are using these tools alone in a
workshop. There's really not much showing off.

Every thing is relative. You can not understand what you don't know.


Who else could possibly have the money to spend so much on a tool to do
the same job I can do with my Trend and DeWalt tools

And by saying that, you've completely missed the point of what many of
us are trying to tell you. That's the fact that you can't do the same
job with your Trend or DeWalt. When you add up the dust collection,
the ease of use and the added capability, those other tools don't
compare.

I certainly would not buy a DeWalt if I only needed to drill ONE hole.
That would be showing off. Again it is all relative. You buy the tools
that suite your needs.


I know what you naysayers are really thinking. You're afraid that if
you go to one of the free demo days that Festool dealers put on,
you'll like a Festool so much you'll end up buying it. Admit it guys.
You're afraid of joining the club and being razzed for spending so
much.

And Larry will never let you hear the end of it. He who rubs two sticks
together to start his fires. :~)


It's either that or we current Festool owners are so embarrassed by
our spending so much money that we want to draw you guys in to so we
don't feel so bad. Is that it? You think we're a bunch of misery loves
company tool owners?

No, it is not that, it is lonely at the top. LOL

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

I bought new front speakers from an upper end dealer, one that's prices
include delivery and installation and wiring. The wiring was Monster
Cable. I change locations of the speakers and used 14" gauge lamp cord,
actually heavier gauge wire, and noticed an improvement in sound
instantly. The powered sub woofer still has the Monster cable.

On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:
In article
,
David wrote:


So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
it's all in the name, eh?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 7:44 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:52:41 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
For Christmas my wife bought me the T15-3 Festool drill.

Nice wife. Does she have an unmarried twin sister?

Not that I know of. LOL


So I really really like the drill.

Well it's true about what I said to another person who thinks that
Festool is some type of gimmick. I'm afraid I'll like a Festool drill
so much that I'll be forced to buy it. That's why I haven't actually
gone to look at any. If I did, my three other drills would get lonely.
Right now, I refuse to diss my current trusted companion drills.

Well here I am with a 12 volt Makita, a 12v Makita impact driver, a 18v
Bosch impact driver that I apparently won but it is still a secret who
the contest or drawing was with, and my new Festool. I absolutely
forgot to mention the Bosch in my list, I absolutely don't often use it.
The Bosch is probably 4 years old and I have not recharged the batteries
more than 1 or 2 times. So I guess I would place the Bosch impact drive
behind the 7 year old 12v Makita impact. Might be a feel or balance
thing. I do know that Bosch has changed the design several times since
I was awarded mine. The Makita seems to have remained the same basic
design for the last 7 years.

Why did my wife buy me a Festool drill? She said she was going to buy
me a very nice tool when I told her that I did not want any thing in
particular. I wanted to be sure I was going to like/want that very nice
tool that she chose so I gave her a hint and she said that I read her
mind.... ;~)

I did not want her her spending $500 on something I was not going to
use, after all, fifty bucks is fifty bucks! Right Swingman? LOL

On 2/3/2012 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:
In article
,
David wrote:


So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
it's all in the name, eh?


Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?

On 2/3/2012 8:49 AM, Leon wrote:

Why did my wife buy me a Festool drill? She said she was going to buy me
a very nice tool when I told her that I did not want any thing in
particular. I wanted to be sure I was going to like/want that very nice
tool that she chose so I gave her a hint and she said that I read her
mind.... ;~)

I did not want her her spending $500 on something I was not going to
use, after all, fifty bucks is fifty bucks! Right Swingman? LOL

Two times!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:
In article
,
David wrote:


So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
it's all in the name, eh?


pretty much. like pioneer or sony can be added to the list.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

I don't know about the sound levels of dust collectors. (if i had a
permanent shop, the collector would be outside and noise not an issue).
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/3/2012 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
In articlew8GdnTekSuLtF7fSnZ2dnUVZ5t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in waterg

No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it submerged
in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube

any tool will do that. Electric items are not nearly as sensitive to
water as people would like to think. My dewalts (and my cheap skil circ
saw) have spent many a rain storm in the back of the truck.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

On Feb 2, 7:49*pm, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
scooped up at once.

After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.

Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
want slip tenons to edge joint boards.

On 2/3/2012 9:25 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2012 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:

So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
it's all in the name, eh?


pretty much. like pioneer or sony can be added to the list.

A man who has never driven a Bugatti, or owned a Festool, is a man who
unarguably has no frame of reference whatsoever to make a distinction.

... particularly obvious when he mentions Pioneer or Sony in the same
breath.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable....

Not in a human-audible region frequency region, no...

--

On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

what you heard about stranded wire and electrons is correct. I wasn't
suggesting using romex for speakers (although i doubt a difference could
be detected) but 18, 16, or 14 ga. zip cord from the hardware store is
just as finely stranded as any hi dollar cable and will do just fine.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Well, that's accomodated by the number of strands and size/strand in
stranded vs solid wire of same gauge...

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

--

On 2/3/2012 9:29 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money spent
on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Sure it will, particularly, as with most "brand name" audio cabling,
when gauge and length of run are taken into consideration and matched to
the components ... something not necessarily taken into account with
cheaper speaker wire.

That is an inarguable, scientific fact.

Only extreme arrogance would automatically assume that since they can't
hear the difference, others can't.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 3, 10:40*am, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. *I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable....

Not in a human-audible region frequency region, no...

--

One can set up harmonic disturbances in super audible frequencies
which will be detectable at lower sub-harmonics in the audible
regions. Amplifier feed-back circuitry is often a culprit in that
arena. Feedback circuitry can create odd-order, non-fundamental
harmonics which are easily detected at minimal quantities, as opposed
to the lush even order harmonics we love to hear in large doses up to
10%. After all, how else do we tell a Bb from a Baritone sax from a Bb
from an alto? Even order harmonic distortion tells us the difference.
The expression THD totally destroys all credibility of the number
Total Contamination 20% cream, 1% sand= 21 TC useless number. But I
digress.

On 2/3/2012 9:43 AM, dpb wrote:

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

Ahh, but "human audible" frequencies are only part of the story.

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.

AAMOF, a trained listener, like a recording engineer, relies on these
third order harmonics to make a distinction between good sound and
excellent sound.

(It's one of the reasons why us old fart recording engineers, like Bruce
Swedien who did most of Michael Jackson's and Barbara Streisand's work,
among others, can still record and mix with the best at an advanced age.


.... that is, we could before the Nyquist frequency limits of digital
sampling rates robbed us of anything above half the sampling frequency.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 3, 10:48*am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 9:29 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money spent
on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Sure it will, particularly, as with most "brand name" audio cabling,
when gauge and length of run are taken into consideration and matched to
the components ... something not necessarily taken into account with
cheaper speaker wire.

That is an inarguable, scientific fact.

Only extreme arrogance would automatically assume that since they can't
hear the difference, others can't.

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Or worse... if you can't measure it...or if you can...? LOL
Then *IF* you can hear a difference, is it more accurate to the
original sound source or just a pleasant aberration?

*trying to put lid back on this can-o-worms*

tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com writes:
Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

12-2 NM or AWG 12 zipcord at Home Depot. Copper is pricy now, but
nothing fancier is required for speakers.

scott

Dave writes:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable.

I call bologny.

There is no measurable electrical difference (unless the cables are
designed to alter the sound via added passive (RC) circuitry, in which
case you're hearing sound that has been degraded by the cables which
confirmation bias makes you think "sounds better").


scott

On 2/3/2012 10:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable.

I call bologny.

There is no measurable electrical difference (unless the cables are
designed to alter the sound via added passive (RC) circuitry, in which
case you're hearing sound that has been degraded by the cables which
confirmation bias makes you think "sounds better").

In order to say that you must make a distinction in cable composition,
cable thickness, length of run, and possible need for shielding,
otherwise you are indeed spouting "bologny" (sic).

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people...

Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. I use the upper
strata Monster interconnects in my system. These things are big bucks, well
into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea they
even exist. (Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) They're the product of choice in
my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
products. Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then there's
no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a bit of
similarity here. Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Festool,
although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.

Art

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?


The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

:-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Dave,
True for frequencies much, much higher than audio.
Kerry

On 2/3/2012 10:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.


Do you regard that as a rigorous argument? Supportive data would make
all the difference.

On 2/3/2012 10:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 9:43 AM, dpb wrote:

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

Ahh, but "human audible" frequencies are only part of the story.

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.
....

If they're a measurable component, it's because they've been generated
somewhere else than in the cable, though, and modulated into the human
range of hearing.

The cable by and of itself, won't be doing that.

--

On 2/3/2012 9:34 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2012 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
In articlew8GdnTekSuLtF7fSnZ2dnUVZ5t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in waterg

No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it submerged
in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube

any tool will do that. Electric items are not nearly as sensitive to
water as people would like to think. My dewalts (and my cheap skil circ
saw) have spent many a rain storm in the back of the truck.


My tools have been wet from rain and not that I make that a habit but
this experiment was with the drill totally submerged in water and
immediately operated.

Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.

On 2/3/2012 11:41 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?


The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

:-)

Puckdropper

Now I am going to have to clean my screen!

On 2/3/2012 11:53 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 10:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 9:43 AM, dpb wrote:

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

Ahh, but "human audible" frequencies are only part of the story.

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.
...

If they're a measurable component, it's because they've been generated
somewhere else than in the cable, though, and modulated into the human
range of hearing.

The cable by and of itself, won't be doing that.

My point, once again ... your remark "there simply isn't any signal
distortion of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly" is
not the entire story of what can be "discerned audibly".

No argument that the content getting to your ear was indeed generated
elsewhere, but one of the paths to your ear of the reproduced content
is, under discussion ... a cable.

What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can
definitely be degraded by that cable.

Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?

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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
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On 2/3/2012 11:42 AM, Kerry Montgomery wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Dave,
True for frequencies much, much higher than audio.

As noted previously, frequencies "much higher than audio" (which should
be more accurately stated as frequencies above the audible range of the
average human ear) can indeed color/effect the sound within the audible
range of human hearing.

These "partials" (overtones, or harmonics, whatever you wish to call
them) are well known examples of this phenomenon of human hearing.

If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment.

One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ... mostly noticed by
an increase in the qualities of depth, clarity and definition in a side
by side comparison ... than digitally recorded/reproduced audio.

These qualities are most definitely not as subjective as they seem to an
untrained ear.

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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 11:41 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?


The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

What!?? No built-in laser on them there drills??

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 03 Feb 2012 17:41:51 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:


Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?


The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

Yabbut, that Fester-Gaudy Green flashes itself at the project as
brightly as any LEDs ever could.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On 2/3/2012 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
....

What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can
definitely be degraded by that cable.

Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?

No.

I'm saying that in the audible range there's not going to be enough
degradation owing to the wire chosen for audio cable that one is going
to be able to measure it, what more hear it audibly. The range at which
such effects of attenuation, reflection, etc., etc., is simply only an
issue at the MHz and higher frequencies; far, far beyond the audio.

Anything higher than that in the signal path that are modulated into the
audio range to form "color" are, of course, audible (that is, in fact a
tautology ) but even third/fifth/and higher overtones are still way
below the point at which those effects are significant owing to gold or
"extra-pure Cu" or whatever marketing BS they want to dream up.

Microwave, ultrasonics, highspeed digital, yes. Audio, no.

--