On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:43:48 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Well, that's accomodated by the number of strands and size/strand in
stranded vs solid wire of same gauge...

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

Many years ago, Stereo magazine did blind testing between various
brands of speaker wire and lamp cord. They used high end equipment and
changed wires for the listener. No one could tell the difference.

Max wrote:
What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate
my Festool TS75 will it sound better.

Max

It will ound sawsome!

On 2/3/2012 8:57 PM, Max wrote:
What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate
my Festool TS75 will it sound better.

Max

no, but it will cost more. Same as adding a monster cable to ANYthing.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/3/2012 11:33 AM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people...

Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. I use the upper
strata Monster interconnects in my system. These things are big bucks, well
into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea they
even exist. (Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) They're the product of choice in
my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
products. Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then there's
no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a bit of
similarity here. Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Festool,
although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.

Art


i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up is
some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
What a racket.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Have to completely disagree here but all the parameters need to be
measured that affect human hearing. Usual distortion measurements are
not enough.

One parameter that isn't usually discussed is the damping a good
amplifier output provides to a set of speakers.

When a speaker is hit with an electrical thump (high frequency edge)
it tends to resonate and reproduce it's natural frequency on ringing
basis. This produced an induced voltage of very low magnitude. If a
long or poor quality cable is used that isolates the absorption effect
of a good, low impedance, amplifier output from the speaker the
damping is lost and the sound gets muddy. This is equivalent of
removing all the acoustic damping material out of the back of the
speaker enclosure.

------------
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/3/2012 3:15 PM, dpb wrote:

For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly
equatable.

Once again: It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the
non-linear, physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument
signal analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply
does not _scientifically_ equate.

If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or
amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the
output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to
sound
by the same speaker.


"If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the
audio chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most
definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing
enjoyment."

Not at all difficult to comprehend.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Steve Barker wrote:
Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. I use
the upper strata Monster interconnects in my system. These things are
big
bucks, well into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't
have any
idea they even exist. (Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) They're the
product of
choice in my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch
of
other products. Of course, if you don't think cables sound different,
then there's no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's
quite a bit of similarity here. Have to say I enjoyed Leon's
justification for the
Festool, although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their
tools.

Art


i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up
is some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
What a racket.

I commend for your reading pleasure the response to Monster Cable's demand
for cease-and-desist or royalty payments sent to Blue Jeans Cable. The owner
of BJC sent a LONG and detailed response. Here's a sample:

" Your letter, received April Fools' Day

"Dear Monster Lawyers,

"Let me begin by stating, without equivocation, that I have no interest
whatsoever in infringing upon any intellectual property belonging to Monster
Cable. Indeed, the less my customers think my products resemble Monster's,
in form or in function, the better."

and

"...I say this because my observation has been that Monster Cable typically
operates in a hit-and-run fashion. Your client threatens litigation,
expecting the victim to panic and plead for mercy; and what follows is a
quickie negotiation session that ends with payment and a licensing
agreement. Your client then uses this collection of licensing agreements to
convince others under similar threat to accede to its demands. Let me be
clear about this: there are only two ways for you to get anything out of me.
You will either need to (1) convince me that I have infringed, or (2) obtain
a final judgment to that effect from a court of competent jurisdiction."

http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...s-strikes-back

On 2/3/2012 8:57 PM, Max wrote:
What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate
my Festool TS75 will it sound better.

If so quite you can't hear it running is what you're looking for, yes
.... it will be just the thing.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 4, 9:45*am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 8:57 PM, Max wrote:

What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate
my Festool TS75 will it sound better.

If so quite you can't hear it running is what you're looking for, yes
... it will be just the thing.

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Just make sure you get the polarity right.

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
at the same level as that sound within the flat response.

A look at the curves shows all.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
well set up, professional analog tape deck.

30ips produces a "useable" response to about 30kHz

There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!

Correct but you said "reproduced by /vinyl records/....."

The equalisation curve used for 30ips tape is IEC. At lower speeds there is
a plethora of standards including NAB.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/4/2012 1:40 PM, Stuart wrote:
In ,
wrote:

... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
at the same level as that sound within the flat response.

A look at the curves shows all.

Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
A look at the curves shows all.

Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.

Not at all. After a peak at about 10k the response is clearly heading
downwards at a rate of notts

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/4/2012 2:44 PM, Stuart wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
well set up, professional analog tape deck.

30ips produces a "useable" response to about 30kHz

Far above your original implication that there was nothing in that
frequency range ... but your sudden, Google acquired knowledge is
misleading you ... what machine, what head format, what tape
formulation, what did you bias for?

There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!

Correct but you said "reproduced by /vinyl records/....."

The equalisation curve used for 30ips tape is IEC. At lower speeds there is
a plethora of standards including NAB.

Irrelevant ... Google can indeed provide you with information and
terminology, but, unfortunately, can't provide you with the basic
understanding to properly use it.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/4/2012 3:01 PM, Stuart wrote:
In article29GdnTJzZZLiB7DSnZ2dnUVZ_hydnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
A look at the curves shows all.

Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.

Not at all. After a peak at about 10k the response is clearly heading
downwards at a rate of notts

Which microphone is Google confusing you about?

A "flat" response from 20Hz to 20 kHz is just that "flat" .. double your
figure "10k" above.

And "notts" being an audio engineering term from what planet?

You are out of your element and Google will do nothing but confuse you
further.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 10:27 PM, Steve Barker wrote:


i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up is
some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
What a racket.

Steve, folks who see the price of some upper end power tools might well
feel the same way. Gee, even some bleedin' HAND tools can drop
someone's jaw who thinks Craftsman is the best there is.

I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.

Art

On 2/4/2012 3:18 PM, Art Shapiro wrote:

I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.

While I've not spent that much on speaker cable, when I turned the
studio over to other hands about six years ago, I had upwards of $250k
invested in recording and outboard equipment ... and that was chump
change compared to many operations.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:31:26 -0600, Swingman wrote:
While I've not spent that much on speaker cable, when I turned the
studio over to other hands about six years ago, I had upwards of $250k
invested in recording and outboard equipment ... and that was chump
change compared to many operations.

Considering the advances in electronics that seem to happen with some
frequency, can I guess that equipment like you might have used become
outdated fairly rapidly?

Or does the audio equipment you are talking about not as subject to
becoming outdated?

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:40:04 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
wrote:

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
at the same level as that sound within the flat response.

A look at the curves shows all.

Having worked at Shure Brothers in R&D, I can assure you that the
published curves are cut off and do not show full range of response of
a microphone, just the human hearing range is referenced. 20hz to
20khz is where you make the mic flat as possible.

On 2/4/2012 3:41 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:31:26 -0600, wrote:
While I've not spent that much on speaker cable, when I turned the
studio over to other hands about six years ago, I had upwards of $250k
invested in recording and outboard equipment ... and that was chump
change compared to many operations.

Considering the advances in electronics that seem to happen with some
frequency, can I guess that equipment like you might have used become
outdated fairly rapidly?

Or does the audio equipment you are talking about not as subject to
becoming outdated?

Depends ... the old tube equipment typically appreciates, sometimes
beyond reason, while the solid state equipment (other than mics) tends
to depreciate.

Older microphones, like Neumann's in particular, have quadrupled, or
more, in price in the last ten years. I have a matched pair of Neumann
KM-84's condenser, not tube, that cost me $400 each 25 years ago that
are easily four times that, used, today. Tube mic's, multiply that by
three, or more.

I have an old $5k Lexicon digital reverb unit that is 16 bit, and that
probably wouldn't fetch $500 today ... although it made a ton of
commercial records in the late 70's, early 80' for me and paid for
itself hundreds of times over.

I don't really keep up with studio stuff much these days ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Art Shapiro wrote:
On 2/3/2012 10:27 PM, Steve Barker wrote:


i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up is
some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
What a racket.

Steve, folks who see the price of some upper end power tools might well
feel the same way. Gee, even some bleedin' HAND tools can drop someone's
jaw who thinks Craftsman is the best there is.

I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.

Art

For me, I think a better word is "unconsionable"--if intended for my
personal use. For a theatre, it may be quite reasonable. The "snob
appeal" seems to me part of the attraction to many--like fine jewelry.
My dad would said (to me), "Just don't come to me looking for any help
down the road!" : )

You say you are "not wealthy, by any strech of the imagination", so that
makes me concerned you might not pass Suzy Orman's "Can I afford it?"
segment! : ) If you would pass, then enjoy ! : )

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Which microphone is Google confusing you about?

Nothing to do with google, I'm quoting manufactures figures here.

A "flat" response from 20Hz to 20 kHz is just that "flat" .. double your
figure "10k" above.

Go look yourself at the curves for the microphone I mentioned. 4dB down at
20Hz, notionally flat between 5Hz and about 7K, rising to a peak of +4dB
at 10k then rapidly falling off from about 13k to be -6dB at 20k. I would
estimate without copying and drawing it out on graph paper (yes I have
the proper bode plot paper) it's about -30dB at 30kHz. At your fanciful
50kHz it's out of sight.

And "notts" being an audio engineering term from what planet?

Ah, of course, I forgot I'm talking to Americans with their poor education.

"Rate of Notts" - standard expression referring to speed in Nautical miles
per hour - Notts. Translation for your benefit - the output is falling
very rapidly with increasing frequency.

You are out of your element

Oh No sunshine, after nearly 40 years as an electronics engineer I know
exactly what I'm talking about but perhaps you'd better stick to woodwork.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
Irrelevant ... Google can indeed provide you with information and
terminology, but, unfortunately, can't provide you with the basic
understanding to properly use it.

Actually, I've been interested and involved in tape recording since my
parents bought a recorder back in the early 60's. Obviously that was a
low-end domestic machine but I've had a number of others, and built my
own, since. My current machine is a Ferrograph logic 7 but unfortunately
it now sits largely unused at the far end of the lounge. For a number of
reasons I no-longer have anything to record live and my microphones -
condensers and ribbons - have all gone up on ebay but I still have my
standard calibration tapes and the necessary test equipment to set
everything up.

Sure, I used google to check latest stuff such as current microphone
technology and specs but I /know/ at lot more than you think.

With microphone response dramatically falling off and machine response
also falling off, let alone your ears, it's largely academic as to whether
there is anything above 20k of any significance - or even lower
frequencies than that - unless you have the ears of a bat.

For all your ravings about psycho-acoustics you clearly have not
understood the work that has been done proving that at higher frequencies
(in particular) and below certain thresholds you can actually throw
information away without it being noticed by the human brain because of
msking effects.

We've drifted a long way from Festool so end of this particular discussion.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/4/2012 5:32 PM, Stuart wrote:

wrote:

You are out of your element

Oh No sunshine, after nearly 40 years as an electronics engineer I know
exactly what I'm talking about but perhaps you'd better stick to woodwork.

Well, exccccuuusssse me! LOL

Psssst:

Anytime you're ready to compare the number of music recordings you have
to your credit as a _recording engineer_, that are being downloaded from
iTunes, and being streamed by Spotify and Rhapsody to millions around
the world as we speak, among others, let me know.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/4/2012 5:32 PM, Stuart wrote:
In ,
wrote:
Irrelevant ... Google can indeed provide you with information and
terminology, but, unfortunately, can't provide you with the basic
understanding to properly use it.

Actually, I've been interested and involved in tape recording since my
parents bought a recorder back in the early 60's. Obviously that was a
low-end domestic machine but I've had a number of others, and built my
own, since. My current machine is a Ferrograph logic 7 but unfortunately
it now sits largely unused at the far end of the lounge. For a number of
reasons I no-longer have anything to record live and my microphones -
condensers and ribbons - have all gone up on ebay but I still have my
standard calibration tapes and the necessary test equipment to set
everything up.

Sure, I used google to check latest stuff such as current microphone
technology and specs but I /know/ at lot more than you think.

With microphone response dramatically falling off and machine response
also falling off, let alone your ears, it's largely academic as to whether
there is anything above 20k of any significance - or even lower
frequencies than that - unless you have the ears of a bat.

For all your ravings about psycho-acoustics you clearly have not
understood the work that has been done proving that at higher frequencies
(in particular) and below certain thresholds you can actually throw
information away without it being noticed by the human brain because of
msking effects.

We've drifted a long way from Festool so end of this particular discussion.

How convenient ... if you will address the specific points I have made,
and provide cites for where you take exception ... and not just general
terminology slinging like the above (including the introduction of
"nautical" terms into a discussion regarding acoustic principles and
their application to microphones and human hearing??) ... I will be
more than glad to defend those specific points for you.

But somehow I suspect that will not be the case ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon wrote:

Why did my wife buy me a Festool drill? She said she was going to buy
me a very nice tool ...

Are you sure she wasn't talking about something else Leon?

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/2/2012 8:00 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

HDMI cables, the likes of the ones BestBuy sells, make me laugh every time I
see them. $50 for a $3 cable? I think not! I wouldn't be surprised if they
made nothing on the electronics, counting on the gravy from cables (and, of
course, $5 warranties on $10 purchases).

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

I don't know about the sound levels of dust collectors. (if i had a
permanent shop, the collector would be outside and noise not an issue).

Rethink that. Dust collectors move a *lot* of air. Unless you don't mind
replacing that air (and heat), this might not be such a good idea. My
compressor lives in the garage, though.

BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Right. There is no money to made from over-estimating the intelligence of
audiophools, though.

"Art Shapiro" wrote in message ...

On 2/3/2012 10:27 PM, Steve Barker wrote:


i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up is
some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
What a racket.

Steve, folks who see the price of some upper end power tools might well
feel the same way. Gee, even some bleedin' HAND tools can drop
someone's jaw who thinks Craftsman is the best there is.

I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.
================================================== ===========
I'd be embarrassed to admit that I paid that much for wire.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:00:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/3/2012 9:43 AM, dpb wrote:

At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion
of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.

Ahh, but "human audible" frequencies are only part of the story.

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.

It may be "well known" but it isn't true.

AAMOF, a trained listener, like a recording engineer, relies on these
third order harmonics to make a distinction between good sound and
excellent sound.

Nonsense.

(It's one of the reasons why us old fart recording engineers, like Bruce
Swedien who did most of Michael Jackson's and Barbara Streisand's work,
among others, can still record and mix with the best at an advanced age.


... that is, we could before the Nyquist frequency limits of digital
sampling rates robbed us of anything above half the sampling frequency.

You can't be robbed of something that never existed.

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 00:19:02 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/3/2012 8:57 PM, Max wrote:
What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate
my Festool TS75 will it sound better.

Max

no, but it will cost more. Same as adding a monster cable to ANYthing.

Even Festool?

" wrote:

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.

It may be "well known" but it isn't true.

Cite

AAMOF, a trained listener, like a recording engineer, relies on these
third order harmonics to make a distinction between good sound and
excellent sound.

Nonsense.

Your ignorance is showing. Key words: harmonics and timbre ... Use them to
learn something.

(It's one of the reasons why us old fart recording engineers, like Bruce
Swedien who did most of Michael Jackson's and Barbara Streisand's work,
among others, can still record and mix with the best at an advanced age.


... that is, we could before the Nyquist frequency limits of digital
sampling rates robbed us of anything above half the sampling frequency.

You can't be robbed of something that never existed.

Your ignorance is either more profound than your above statements suggest,
are you're simply trolling.

Record any music containing an instrument(s) with harmonic content above
22050Hz onto a CD and anything above that frequency will be lost.

Keyword, Nyquist ... Inform yourself before you spout off.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

In article ,
Markem wrote:
Having worked at Shure Brothers in R&D, I can assure you that the
published curves are cut off and do not show full range of response of
a microphone, just the human hearing range is referenced. 20hz to
20khz is where you make the mic flat as possible.

Of course, its the only frequency range that matters unless you are
building mics for special purposes. Looking at curves, however, can give
an indication of "where things are going" and if the response has started
to fall by 20k its a pretty good sign that it's going to keep heading in
that direction. The only design effort put in outside that range is to
ensure that "funnies" at higher frequencise don't have any effect within
the audio band.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

"Stuart" wrote in message ...

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Which microphone is Google confusing you about?

Nothing to do with google, I'm quoting manufactures figures here.

A "flat" response from 20Hz to 20 kHz is just that "flat" .. double your
figure "10k" above.

Go look yourself at the curves for the microphone I mentioned. 4dB down at
20Hz, notionally flat between 5Hz and about 7K, rising to a peak of +4dB
at 10k then rapidly falling off from about 13k to be -6dB at 20k. I would
estimate without copying and drawing it out on graph paper (yes I have
the proper bode plot paper) it's about -30dB at 30kHz. At your fanciful
50kHz it's out of sight.

And "notts" being an audio engineering term from what planet?

Ah, of course, I forgot I'm talking to Americans with their poor education.
================================================== ===========
You forget that we do not speak the same language. It's spelled knot around
here.

"Rate of Notts" - standard expression referring to speed in Nautical miles
per hour - Notts. Translation for your benefit - the output is falling
very rapidly with increasing frequency.

You are out of your element

Oh No sunshine, after nearly 40 years as an electronics engineer I know
exactly what I'm talking about but perhaps you'd better stick to woodwork.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/4/2012 9:28 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Why did my wife buy me a Festool drill? She said she was going to buy
me a very nice tool ...

Are you sure she wasn't talking about something else Leon?


No man! She said I read her mind. LOL

On 2/4/2012 11:33 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

I don't know about the sound levels of dust collectors. (if i had a
permanent shop, the collector would be outside and noise not an issue).

Rethink that. Dust collectors move a *lot* of air. Unless you don't mind
replacing that air (and heat), this might not be such a good idea. My
compressor lives in the garage, though.

BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Right. There is no money to made from over-estimating the intelligence of
audiophools, though.


And the dust collectors are not really an annoying noise, typically
quieter than any of the machines that they are hooked up to.

One odd exception however is my dust collector and my stationary planer.
Neither are bad by them selves just running and not working but both
together seems to triple the noise at the planer.

In article ,
CW wrote:
You forget that we do not speak the same language. It's spelled knot
around here.

Aye, who was it said said "Two nations separated by a common language"?

Mind you, my spelling isn't always that good anyway, especially when I'm
feeling annoyed. It should be "knot" round here too and for that I must
eat humble pie.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/5/2012 9:24 AM, Stuart wrote:

Ah, of course, I forgot I'm talking to Americans with their
poor education.

"Rate of Notts" - standard expression referring to speed
in Nautical miles per hour - Notts. Translation for your benefit
the output is falling very rapidly with increasing frequency.

Mind you, my spelling isn't always that good anyway, especially when I'm
feeling annoyed. It should be "knot" round here too and for that I must
eat humble pie.

Use it once and it might be a misspelling ... use it three times, as you
did, and it is out of the realm of misspelling and indeed into the realm
of "poor education".

So much for Americans being the ones "with their poor education".

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/5/2012 3:15 AM, Stuart wrote:
In ,
wrote:
Having worked at Shure Brothers in R&D, I can assure you that the
published curves are cut off and do not show full range of response of
a microphone, just the human hearing range is referenced. 20hz to
20khz is where you make the mic flat as possible.

Of course, its the only frequency range that matters unless you are
building mics for special purposes. Looking at curves, however, can give
an indication of "where things are going" and if the response has started
to fall by 20k its a pretty good sign that it's going to keep heading in
that direction. The only design effort put in outside that range is to
ensure that "funnies" at higher frequencise don't have any effect within
the audio band.


LOL. We now have another new audio engineering term ... "funnies"?

Don't look now, but you just clearly stated that your "funnies" at
higher frequencies", do indeed have an effect "within the audio band".

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 00:27:18 -0600, Swingman wrote:

" wrote:

It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human
audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible
frequencies.

It may be "well known" but it isn't true.

Cite

*YOU* are making the claim.

AAMOF, a trained listener, like a recording engineer, relies on these
third order harmonics to make a distinction between good sound and
excellent sound.

Nonsense.

Your ignorance is showing. Key words: harmonics and timbre ... Use them to
learn something.

Utter audiophoolisms. Look up "Fourier Transform" and "Nyquist limit".

(It's one of the reasons why us old fart recording engineers, like Bruce
Swedien who did most of Michael Jackson's and Barbara Streisand's work,
among others, can still record and mix with the best at an advanced age.


... that is, we could before the Nyquist frequency limits of digital
sampling rates robbed us of anything above half the sampling frequency.

You can't be robbed of something that never existed.

Your ignorance is either more profound than your above statements suggest,
are you're simply trolling.

You've listened to too many audiophools.

Record any music containing an instrument(s) with harmonic content above
22050Hz onto a CD and anything above that frequency will be lost.

Wrong (worse than that). The world is not perfect but it doesn't matter. You
can't hear it.

Keyword, Nyquist ... Inform yourself before you spout off.

You're the one who needs to UNDERSTAND Nyquist. I deal with it every day.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:19:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/4/2012 11:33 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
money for the rest of us.

After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
(until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

I don't know about the sound levels of dust collectors. (if i had a
permanent shop, the collector would be outside and noise not an issue).

Rethink that. Dust collectors move a *lot* of air. Unless you don't mind
replacing that air (and heat), this might not be such a good idea. My
compressor lives in the garage, though.

BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Right. There is no money to made from over-estimating the intelligence of
audiophools, though.


And the dust collectors are not really an annoying noise, typically
quieter than any of the machines that they are hooked up to.

I don't find them so. Some do, apparently. Pehaps it has to do with the DC
itself?

One odd exception however is my dust collector and my stationary planer.
Neither are bad by them selves just running and not working but both
together seems to triple the noise at the planer.

I can't hear anything above the planer. The DC is just a woosh, by
comparison. ;-)