On 2/3/2012 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
...

What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can
definitely be degraded by that cable.

Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?

No.

Yes

I'm saying that in the audible range there's not going to be enough
degradation owing to the wire chosen for audio cable that one is going
to be able to measure it, what more hear it audibly.

I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric
extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good
set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained
one, will not hear the difference.

My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still
accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar
environment.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 11:33 AM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people...

Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. I use the upper
strata Monster interconnects in my system. These things are big bucks, well
into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea they
even exist. (Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) They're the product of choice in
my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
products. Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then there's
no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a bit of
similarity here. Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Festool,
although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.

+1
Like


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 12:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
...

What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can
definitely be degraded by that cable.

Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?

No.

Yes

I'm saying that in the audible range there's not going to be enough
degradation owing to the wire chosen for audio cable that one is going
to be able to measure it, what more hear it audibly.

I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric
extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good
set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained
one, will not hear the difference.

My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still
accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar
environment.

Well, to be fair, compare 10-ft of each but I'll bet you can't in a
truly blind test w/ the identical inputs and non-faulty connections.

I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a
coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there
simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal. You can't (and
no one else can) hear what isn't there and there isn't material
attenuation or reflection at those frequencies which are audible to be
significant (unless, of course, somebody doctors the connectors to add
attenuators or other such shenanigans.

At that time (mid-70s) I recall there was at least one uncovering of one
how the patch cords at an audio outlet had been so modified and it was
how they were convincing folks they could hear the difference. In that
case, of course, they could. When a straight plug was used, all of a
sudden the difference went away for some reason...

--

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:23:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/3/2012 11:42 AM, Kerry Montgomery wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Dave,
True for frequencies much, much higher than audio.

As noted previously, frequencies "much higher than audio" (which should
be more accurately stated as frequencies above the audible range of the
average human ear) can indeed color/effect the sound within the audible
range of human hearing.

These "partials" (overtones, or harmonics, whatever you wish to call
them) are well known examples of this phenomenon of human hearing.

They are very real. I used to notice them. sigh


If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment.

One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ... mostly noticed by
an increase in the qualities of depth, clarity and definition in a side
by side comparison ... than digitally recorded/reproduced audio.

I prefer CDs today due to the absense of clicks, pops, and scratches I
used to hear, even on nearly new vinyl records.


These qualities are most definitely not as subjective as they seem to an
untrained ear.

Or to older, battered ears, especially after the Acid Rock years. I've
given up my audiophile ways for

lj--Ask me about my Tinnitus!

Oh, THIS JUST I: Pass it on to Lew's 1-year anniversary "And The
Creek Keeps Ris'n" thread, will ya?

--snip--
On a bitterly cold winter's morning a husband and wife in Minnesota
were listening to the radio during breakfast. They heard the announcer
say, "We are going to have 8 to 10 inches of snow today. You must park
your car on the even-numbered side of the street, so the Snowploughs
can get through." So the wife went out and moved her car.

A week later while they are eating breakfast again, the radio
announcer said, "We are expecting 10 to 12 inches of snow today. You
must park your car on the odd-numbered side of the street, so the
snowploughs can get through."

The wife went out and moved her car again.

The next week they are again having breakfast, when the radio
announcer says, "We are expecting 12 to 14 inches of snow today. You
must park...." Then the electric power went out.

The wife was very upset, and with a worried look on her face she said,
"I don't know what to do". "Which side of the street do I need to park
on so the snowploughs can get through?"

Then with the love and understanding in his voice that all men who are
married to blondes exhibit, the husband replied,

"Why don't you just leave the car in the garage this time."
--snip--

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
Markem wrote:
So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.

I remember a while ago, an article in the magazine "Wireless world" (now
Electronics World), in which Douglas Self, a highly regarded amplifier
designer, explained why he used "Woolworths Mains cable" for his speaker
leads. Tables of measurements were provided to support his view!

As Barry Fox, in a later edition of the same journal said, "There is no
doubt that most people who pay hard-earned cash for mumbo-jumbo witchcraft
will rather hear the difference than admit they were taken for a ride"

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

"Markem" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.
================================================== ========
It's not discernable period. Copper is copper.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 2/3/2012 9:34 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2012 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
In articlew8GdnTekSuLtF7fSnZ2dnUVZ5t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in waterg

No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it submerged
in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube

any tool will do that. Electric items are not nearly as sensitive to
water as people would like to think. My dewalts (and my cheap skil circ
saw) have spent many a rain storm in the back of the truck.


My tools have been wet from rain and not that I make that a habit but
this experiment was with the drill totally submerged in water and
immediately operated.

Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.
================================================== ==========
Done it with a Black & Decker. No problem. When my kid raced electric RC off
road cars, it was standard practice to drop the motor into a bucket of water
and run it submerged for a minute to seat the brushes.

On 2/3/2012 1:10 PM, dpb wrote:

I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a
coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there
simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal.

Laughable folly to any acoustic engineer.

It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear,
physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal
analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not
_scientifically_ equate.

You can't (and no
one else can) hear what isn't there

Wanna bet?

A very common (due to psychoacoustic properties of the human ear)
phenomenon in the studio is a "ghost sound" on a recording; a sound not
actually physically recorded, but heard very clearly when two or more
tracks are combined to excite partials and overtones ...

.... IOW, you are indeed "hearing what isn't there".



isn't material attenuation
or reflection at those frequencies which are audible to be significant
(unless, of course, somebody doctors the connectors to add attenuators
or other such shenanigans.

Totally besides the point in our discussion.


At that time (mid-70s) I recall there was at least one uncovering of one
how the patch cords at an audio outlet had been so modified and it was
how they were convincing folks they could hear the difference. In that
case, of course, they could. When a straight plug was used, all of a
sudden the difference went away for some reason...

Again, nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

As another poster said succinctly stated, if you can't hear the
difference, it is pointless to even discuss it.

That pretty well sums it up.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article ,
tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote:
Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Friend of mine was an amateur blacksmith. The guy next to him at a craft
fair was selling home made pottery and wasn't doing very well. On the
final day of the fair he doubled his prices and sold the lot!

People believe that if something is more expensive it has to be better.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:36:41 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
means better sound.

Primarly how dc current flows not an alternating one. Other wise the
green movement would have you replace your house wiring to be more
green.

There you go Monster house wires.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:57:17 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/3/2012 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
...

What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can
definitely be degraded by that cable.

Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?

No.

Yes

I'm saying that in the audible range there's not going to be enough
degradation owing to the wire chosen for audio cable that one is going
to be able to measure it, what more hear it audibly.

I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric
extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good
set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained
one, will not hear the difference.

Having watched people in stores do audio comparisons many times
before, I'll bet the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to tell
a nasty (10% THD) signal from a clean (0.01% THD) signal thru good or
bad speakers with either cable. /cynicism


My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still
accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar
environment.

Good for you.
Point: Most people don't -care- to discern even if they could do so.

Listen to the levels and distortions of car audio every time you're on
the street. It will tell you a lot. That people allow themselves to be
bombarded by Muzak in elevators and beeps from computer games all
these years should tell you some more. (Egad!)

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
I bought new front speakers from an upper end dealer, one that's prices
include delivery and installation and wiring. The wiring was Monster
Cable. I change locations of the speakers and used 14" gauge lamp cord,
actually heavier gauge wire, and noticed an improvement in sound
instantly. The powered sub woofer still has the Monster cable.

Just keep the cross-sectional area up and the resistance down, theat's all
there is to it.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/3/2012 11:33 AM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Monster cables crack me up. I never could understand how people...

Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. I use the upper
strata Monster interconnects in my system. These things are big bucks, well
into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea they
even exist. (Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) They're the product of choice in
my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
products. Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then there's
no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a bit of
similarity here. Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Festool,
although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.

Art

Now I am going to say that Monster Cables may in fact be better than I
thought and especially in extreme high end stuff.

BUT You have to think that when the clear insulation is 1/2" wide by
1/4" thick and the magnified cable inside that insulation indeed looks
Monster sized and then you see 2, 14 gauge wires poking out of the ends
there is marketing going on. Am I wrong or does the appearance of a
large cable inside the clear insulation actually do something?

On 2/3/2012 2:14 PM, CW wrote:


"Markem" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
beliefs.
================================================== ========
It's not discernable period. Copper is copper.

There must be a category of monster cable previously mentioned by Arthur
that most people never see. I don't think that Best Buys sells anything
that would require an extremely high quality cable.

In article ,
Dave wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
electrons travel on the outside surface of wire.

You're thinking of "skin effect"

In that case, there would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than
there would be on solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better
conduction and that means better sound.

Only becomes noticeable at /high/ frequencies. There is a formula but not
suitable for a plain-test news post.

With 13A copper mains cable at frequencies below 13kHz the skin depth is
greater than the cable radius. At 20kHz the skin depth is 0.47mm and the
conductor radius radius is 0.6. The conductor resistance increase from
152mOhm to 160mOhm per meter which will have no appreciable consequences.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/3/2012 2:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 1:10 PM, dpb wrote:

I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a
coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there
simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal.

Laughable folly to any acoustic engineer.

It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear,
physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal
analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not
_scientifically_ equate.

You can't (and no
one else can) hear what isn't there

Wanna bet?

A very common (due to psychoacoustic properties of the human ear)
phenomenon in the studio is a "ghost sound" on a recording; a sound not
actually physically recorded, but heard very clearly when two or more
tracks are combined to excite partials and overtones ...

.... IOW, you are indeed "hearing what isn't there".


....

Last, first...

But then it is there, but it's generated past the wire in the air and
that can, indeed, be measured.

For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly
equatable. If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or
amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the
output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to sound
by the same speaker.

Whatever is generated owing to distortion, harmonics, etc., etc., in the
speaker and the environment is there, certainly, but it had nothing to
do w/ the two wires over which the output of the amplifier was
transmitted to the speaker.

--

In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Now I am going to say that Monster Cables may in fact be better than I
thought and especially in extreme high end stuff.

BUT You have to think that when the clear insulation is 1/2" wide by
1/4" thick and the magnified cable inside that insulation indeed looks
Monster sized and then you see 2

I don't have any familiarity with the company's top-o'-the-line speaker
cables. (I use a different company's product.) But the Sigma interconnects
look pretty much like other good cables - a lot more substantial than the
flimsy little grey things that come with Best Buy sorts of components, but
nothing that will cause much of a visual reaction. It's fairly obvious that
the connectors are substantial, but that's about it. I believe the
corresponding speaker cable is similar - a black-jacketed product, not the
relatively heavy transparent look you're citing.

Now I'm sure there's a huge profit margin in the Monster cables I use, but
nevertheless they seem to be a really fine match for this particular set of
equipment. I just hate to see the company blasted because of their
proletarian stuff that is heavily marketed in mass market stores.

Art

On 2/3/2012 2:42 PM, Stuart wrote:
In ,
tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com wrote:
Monster cables **** me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Friend of mine was an amateur blacksmith. The guy next to him at a craft
fair was selling home made pottery and wasn't doing very well. On the
final day of the fair he doubled his prices and sold the lot!

People believe that if something is more expensive it has to be better.


And those people are the ones that may have been looking for a long time
and it would cost more in time and money to continue to search for a
better price. But just because it is higher priced does not mean it is
not worth every penny that you pay for it.

If an item is expensive and sells well enough that it continues to sell
at an expensive price then it is not over priced. Obviously people see
the value in the product that may be beyond what your particular needs are.

So for you maybe Festool is too expensive you don't require the better
of the products offered. For me I produce more and at a faster pace and
make more money using the Festool products.

And if you think it is a situation where some one buys a Festool tool,
has buyers remorse, and will say that it was not worth the price then
certainly they should be returning the product during the 30 day trial
period. And because these tool are expensive it is rare that anyone
buys a whole pile of Festool at one time like the so many cordless tool
kits that are offered by Ryobi, Craftsman, DeWalt, Skil, etc. So if
they were did not see the value in the product they probably would not
be buying additional Festool pieces. It is not uncommon at all for a
Festool owner to have several pieces over a few years. I personally
have 6 different Festool power tools that I have bought over the past
4~5 years and it took me that long to collect them and I have bought no
other brand if Festool offered the same product. Not saying I would not
but in every case the value was there for me. Top that off that I will
be the first to say that I do not believe in brand loyalty but with
Festool all of their power tools seem to be of equal quality and
versatility which is very rare. Most all tool manufacturers have a darn
good bread and butter product that brings in the sales and then most the
rest of their product line may be run of the mill.

On 2/3/2012 3:23 PM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Now I am going to say that Monster Cables may in fact be better than I
thought and especially in extreme high end stuff.

BUT You have to think that when the clear insulation is 1/2" wide by
1/4" thick and the magnified cable inside that insulation indeed looks
Monster sized and then you see 2

I don't have any familiarity with the company's top-o'-the-line speaker
cables. (I use a different company's product.) But the Sigma interconnects
look pretty much like other good cables - a lot more substantial than the
flimsy little grey things that come with Best Buy sorts of components, but
nothing that will cause much of a visual reaction. It's fairly obvious that
the connectors are substantial, but that's about it. I believe the
corresponding speaker cable is similar - a black-jacketed product, not the
relatively heavy transparent look you're citing.

Now I'm sure there's a huge profit margin in the Monster cables I use, but
nevertheless they seem to be a really fine match for this particular set of
equipment. I just hate to see the company blasted because of their
proletarian stuff that is heavily marketed in mass market stores.

Art


Art it has been quite some time and IIRC I recall when Monster Cables
appeared in the Best Buy stores. Those speaker cables were as I
described in size but had no connectors. They simply had the clear
insulation removed about 3/4" on both ends. Inside the insulation the
wire appeared to be about 6 gauge and no apparent extra shielding.

I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
cable. Does/would thick clear insulation help the sound quality of some
thing you would buy at Best Buy?

On 2/3/2012 2:22 PM, CW wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 2/3/2012 9:34 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2012 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
In articlew8GdnTekSuLtF7fSnZ2dnUVZ5t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
of water.

I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in waterg

No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it submerged
in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube

any tool will do that. Electric items are not nearly as sensitive to
water as people would like to think. My dewalts (and my cheap skil circ
saw) have spent many a rain storm in the back of the truck.


My tools have been wet from rain and not that I make that a habit but
this experiment was with the drill totally submerged in water and
immediately operated.

Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.
================================================== ==========
Done it with a Black & Decker. No problem. When my kid raced electric RC
off road cars, it was standard practice to drop the motor into a bucket
of water and run it submerged for a minute to seat the brushes.

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ...

They actually prefer the phase shifts and other effects introduced by the
RIAA equalisers?

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:

I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
cable. Does/would thick clear insulation help the sound quality of some
thing you would buy at Best Buy?

Clear insulation lets you look at the pretty copper.

I don't know why, but clear insulation is pretty common on speaker
wire. The stuff on my stereo (spools from Home Depot, as I recall)
is clear, except for the polarity stripe.

I don't dislike the look, though I try to run it where it isn't seen.

--
Drew Lawson Some men's dreams
for others turn to nightmares.
I never would have thought this
in my wildest dreams.

In article ,
dpb wrote:
At that time (mid-70s) I recall there was at least one uncovering of one
how the patch cords at an audio outlet had been so modified and it was
how they were convincing folks they could hear the difference. In that
case, of course, they could. When a straight plug was used, all of a
sudden the difference went away for some reason...

And it would not surprise me one iota if by employing odd construction in
some of these fancy cables they were modifying, say, the frequency
response of the cable to make it sound "better" - well - different anyway

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric
extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good
set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained
one, will not hear the difference.

My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still
accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar
environment.

Yeh but which one is the accurate transmission of what is leaving the
amplifier terminals

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
cable.

Who knows? Probably at that level it's marketing, an activity by which I'm
personally repulsed. I don't think you can fault them for expending effort to
make something look appealing or to otherwise distinguish the stuff from the
other 50 companies making similar merchandise. I surely wouldn't purchase
something that didn't have heavy connectors firmly attached to the ends; do
they expect folks to be using those binding posts with holes in them to stick
the wire and smush it down???

Probably the best (?) example of this mentality are those mini stereo systems
that look like a stacked bunch of separate components in a vertical array -
amp, preamp, tuner, tape deck, CD player, etc. And you open up the unit and
you see it's all a facade like the movie studio westerns, and there's just one
little circuit board sitting at the bottom of the otherwise empty interior!

Have to say I recently bought a low-level Monster product. The tiny desktop
computer I built last summer didn't have two DVI outputs on the motherboard,
unlike the old computer. It has a DVI and a HDMI output. Thus I couldn't
drive both monitors. So I purchased a Monster DVI---HDMI cable. It seemed
to be well-constructed, had heavy connectors well-attached to the cable at
both ends, and certainly gave the impression that it would hold up to use over
time. What more could one ask? It has worked out well.

Art

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
chain (including the cable),

Or the microphone!

Even Neuman only quote a 20kHz upper limit on their M149 which, at three
grand (pounds) is probably the microphone equivalent of Festool.

Saw a chart in a book once which showed the frequency ranges of various
instruments, microphones, amplifiers, speakers etc. The limiting factor
was the microphone and if the microphone doesn't pick it up you aint gonna
hear it unless it's generated elsewhere.

the lack thereof will most definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing
enjoyment.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

On 2/3/2012 4:15 PM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
In article88GdncTj3fN1zrHSnZ2dnUVZ5tSdnZ2d@giganews. com, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
cable.

Who knows? Probably at that level it's marketing, an activity by which I'm
personally repulsed. I don't think you can fault them for expending effort to
make something look appealing or to otherwise distinguish the stuff from the
other 50 companies making similar merchandise. I surely wouldn't purchase
something that didn't have heavy connectors firmly attached to the ends; do
they expect folks to be using those binding posts with holes in them to stick
the wire and smush it down???

LOL Well I am going for marketing then, I seriously wondered if I was
missing something. No kidding this cables insulation was 1/2" wide and
1/4" thick and the exposed wires in the ends was no more than 14 gauge.
I swear they derived the name after they developed the look. The
cable looked exactly like what you would imagine "monster lamp cord"
would look like. My first thoughts when I saw the cable many years ago
was how are you going to hide that stuff and or get it to lay flat.
Comparing them to a set of automobile jumper cables is a stretch but not
much. and then I noticed the ends of the cable with the insulation
stripped away and I almost laughed. The clear insulation literally
looked full of cable. Think of a pig, his insulation, and then his
tail, his wire. ;~)






Probably the best (?) example of this mentality are those mini stereo systems
that look like a stacked bunch of separate components in a vertical array -
amp, preamp, tuner, tape deck, CD player, etc. And you open up the unit and
you see it's all a facade like the movie studio westerns, and there's just one
little circuit board sitting at the bottom of the otherwise empty interior!

Exactly! That is what the old Monster speaker wired looked like.


Have to say I recently bought a low-level Monster product. The tiny desktop
computer I built last summer didn't have two DVI outputs on the motherboard,
unlike the old computer. It has a DVI and a HDMI output. Thus I couldn't
drive both monitors. So I purchased a Monster DVI---HDMI cable. It seemed
to be well-constructed, had heavy connectors well-attached to the cable at
both ends, and certainly gave the impression that it would hold up to use over
time. What more could one ask? It has worked out well.

Art

It sounds like their features have improved.

On Feb 3, 6:23*pm, Swingman wrote:

One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ... mostly noticed by
an increase in the qualities of depth, clarity and definition in a side
by side comparison ... than digitally recorded/reproduced audio.

I'd argue with that - I have recordings of vinyl on minidisc and CD
which sound every bit as good as from the record itself. My own
personal view is that it is likely the mildly compressed nature of the
vinyl audio signal, and the (possible) low bass rumble of the vinyl
will make the music more pleasing - there is a notion that dynamic
compression is a bad thing in audio recording, and when it is over
done, it is. But used properly, it isn't, and vinyl has a lower
dynamic range than CD.

Things to consider:

1. Source.

What is the source material?
What is the capacity of this source material to contain frequencies
beyond the 'normal' reproduction values i.e. if records DO produce
higher-frequency sonics, how are these processed through the
associated electronics?
For CDs, how well can the DAC circuitry deal with the higher freqs.?

2. Amplifier.

What is the bandwidth of the amplifier?
What are the characteristics of the amp? i.e. does it amplify the
ultrasound in the same manner as the audible stuff?

3. Loudspeakers.

Are the LS actually capable of reproducing these ultrasonics?

4. Ears.

Are you capable of hearing the ultrasonics?
Many tests of people 'hearing' ultrasonics are conducted with a
transducer against the skull - if they were reproduced by a
conventional loudspeaker, would they be produced loud enough to have a
discernible effect? What is the attenuation of ultrasonics like?

There are many, MANY variables to look at, and by-and-large albums are
not produced with anything like the care needed to get your nerd on
about very very technical aspects of audio technology - it is NOT
about music. A few years ago a chap named Jose Gonzales released an
album called Veneer to much critical acclaim, and indeed it contained
a number of lovely songs, but the technical aspect of the quality of
the sound was, frankly, dreadful. But it did not matter, as the
technical aspect is a small part of that album. Not to say that it
wouldn't have improved the album - it would, but listening to a ****ty
copy of Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits on cassette is still
enjoyable, it's just DIFFERENT from the CD releases.

No vinyl or CD can come close to a 24 bit, 192Khz digital file for
*potential accuracy* though, and nothing EVER lives up to your MEMORY
of the sound!

To paraphrase a nuclear physicist who is also an avid music enthusiast
I once asked about this, cables make bugger-all difference in a home
setting, so long as they are of the minimum or greater electrical
specification.

Please don't think I am trying to flat-out say "Ah, you're wrong!", I
am not, rather, I am trying to convey that everyone is different,
everyone has different preferences for how what they listen to is
reproduced (I like a good bit of bass, and find treble that many
others would find OK to be oppressive and tiring, for example) and
there are so many technical aspects to the electronics used that it is
akin to tilting at windmills to say "this is definite" - I have no
religion, and if I did, I wouldn't choose audio!

On Feb 3, 12:33*pm, (Arthur Shapiro) wrote:
In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
Monster cables crack me up. *I never could understand how people...

Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. *I use the upper
strata Monster interconnects in my system. *These things are big bucks, well
into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea they
even exist. *(Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) *They're the product of choice in
my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
products. *Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then there's
no point discussing the issue.

I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a bit of
similarity here. *Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Festool,
although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.

Art

I could set up an accurate AB comparison test, properly attenuated to
eliminate any soundpressure differences and I will be very surprised
if you'd be able to tell the difference between your rip-off wires and
a proper ordinary conductor. But then again, you qualified your
position about us being out of our element when you don't have a clue
who you're talking to.
If you think you can out-spend common sense, then go for it....and no,
Festool does NOT operate on those Monster principles. Their tools MUST
perform for them to maintain their reputation, they will not be able
to 'fool' expert craftsmen unlike Monster being able to pull money out
of your ignorant pocket. Monster= there's sucker born every minute.

On Feb 3, 4:15*pm, dpb wrote:
On 2/3/2012 2:27 PM, Swingman wrote:







On 2/3/2012 1:10 PM, dpb wrote:

I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a
coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there
simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal.

Laughable folly to any acoustic engineer.

It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear,
physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal
analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not
_scientifically_ equate.

You can't (and no
one else can) hear what isn't there

Wanna bet?

A very common (due to psychoacoustic properties of the human ear)
phenomenon in the studio is a "ghost sound" on a recording; a sound not
actually physically recorded, but heard very clearly when two or more
tracks are combined to excite partials and overtones ...

.... IOW, you are indeed "hearing what isn't there".



...

Last, first...

But then it is there, but it's generated past the wire in the air and
that can, indeed, be measured.

For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly
equatable. *If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or
amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the
output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to sound
by the same speaker.

Whatever is generated owing to distortion, harmonics, etc., etc., in the
speaker and the environment is there, certainly, but it had nothing to
do w/ the two wires over which the output of the amplifier was
transmitted to the speaker.

--

People here have yet to touch on how the complex impedance of a cross-
over network presents itself to an amplifier and how it affects its
linearity. Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
an inductive load (however small) which will affect that complex
impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
wires. A proper spectrum analyzer, one that can show a waterfall of
complex impedance, will not necessarily show an amplitude linearity
problem, but phase can be out of step over the spectrum. Speaker wires
can create different loads to an amplifier, which WILL make them sound
different.

On 2/3/2012 3:46 PM, Stuart wrote:
In article4dKdneJx7qWtu7HSnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ...

They actually prefer the phase shifts and other effects introduced by the
RIAA equalisers?

Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
well set up, professional analog tape deck.

There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 3, 5:59*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2012 3:46 PM, Stuart wrote:

In article4dKdneJx7qWtu7HSnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews. com,
* * *wrote:
One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ...

They actually prefer the phase shifts and other effects introduced by the
RIAA equalisers?

Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
well set up, professional analog tape deck.

There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I once convinced a audiophile that there was this guy who calibrated
all RIAA eq's by ear. His name? Fletcher Munson of course G

On 2/3/2012 4:24 PM, Stuart wrote:
In article4dKdneJx7qWtu7HSnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
chain (including the cable),

Or the microphone!

Even Neuman only quote a 20kHz upper limit on their M149 which, at three
grand (pounds) is probably the microphone equivalent of Festool.

Saw a chart in a book once which showed the frequency ranges of various
instruments, microphones, amplifiers, speakers etc. The limiting factor
was the microphone and if the microphone doesn't pick it up you aint gonna
hear it unless it's generated elsewhere.

Where you err your assunmption in the above is that the spec'ed
frequency range of a high quality mic is what is known as it's "flat"
frequency response, usually quoted as between two numbers, say 20 Hz to
to 20kHz.

... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
at the same level as that sound within the flat response.

The "frequency response" of a mic, and its relative flatness at certain
frequencies, is the main characteristic a knowledgeable audio engineer
uses to determine mic choice for a particular sound, instrument or vocal.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 3, 5:57*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 3, 4:15*pm, dpb wrote:









On 2/3/2012 2:27 PM, Swingman wrote:

On 2/3/2012 1:10 PM, dpb wrote:

I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a
coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there
simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal.

Laughable folly to any acoustic engineer.

It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear,
physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal
analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not
_scientifically_ equate.

You can't (and no
one else can) hear what isn't there

Wanna bet?

A very common (due to psychoacoustic properties of the human ear)
phenomenon in the studio is a "ghost sound" on a recording; a sound not
actually physically recorded, but heard very clearly when two or more
tracks are combined to excite partials and overtones ...

.... IOW, you are indeed "hearing what isn't there".



...

Last, first...

But then it is there, but it's generated past the wire in the air and
that can, indeed, be measured.

For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly
equatable. *If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or
amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the
output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to sound
by the same speaker.

Whatever is generated owing to distortion, harmonics, etc., etc., in the
speaker and the environment is there, certainly, but it had nothing to
do w/ the two wires over which the output of the amplifier was
transmitted to the speaker.

--

People here have yet to touch on how the complex impedance of a cross-
over network presents itself to an amplifier and how it affects its
linearity. Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
an inductive load (however small) which will affect that complex
impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
wires. A proper spectrum analyzer, one that can show a waterfall of
complex impedance, will not necessarily show an amplitude linearity
problem, but phase can be out of step over the spectrum. Speaker wires
can create different loads to an amplifier, which WILL make them sound
different.

always somebody stirring up the pot...

On 2/3/2012 3:15 PM, dpb wrote:

For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly
equatable.

Once again: It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the
non-linear, physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument
signal analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply
does not _scientifically_ equate.

If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or
amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the
output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to sound
by the same speaker.


"If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the
audio chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment."

Not at all difficult to comprehend.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Dave" wrote in message ...

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable.
================================================== ===
Bull.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:59:02 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.

Suggest it's grounded and he's not touching the drill when it starts
up

On 2/3/2012 6:44 PM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:59:02 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.

Suggest it's grounded and he's not touching the drill when it starts
up

Naaaaw!

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:59:46 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

Is that what those lights are on my impact driver? *Real* LED's? Damn,
now I *will* have to go out and buy the whole line.

I'm kind of short on cash right now, so I guess I'll have to sell my
Domino and HL850. Just gotta have those LED DeWalts.

What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate my
Festool TS75 will it sound better.

Max