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#1
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How much runout on TS is too much
My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to
check blade alignment. I cobbled together a jig similar to this http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my blade http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/sto...l&catref=wd146 (whoever came up with that technique is a genius) The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site) http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg |
#2
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How much runout on TS is too much
"RayV" wrote in message Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site) http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg When I get home I'm going to make some popcorn and ice my favorite adult beverage to sustain me while the results come in on this one. |
#3
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How much runout on TS is too much
RayV wrote:
Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? How do test rips look? |
#4
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 10:38 am, B A R R Y wrote:
RayV wrote: Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? How do test rips look? Hard to tell, I went looking for a decent combination blade over the weekend but couldn't find one. The Avanti (50T $30) blade cuts right through Maple but leaves hatchet marks. I will stop at the Lumberyard today and see what they have, I will probably end up ordering one of these: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.co...worker_II.html |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
"RayV" wrote in message
ps.com... My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to check blade alignment. I cobbled together a jig similar to this http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my blade http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/sto...l&catref=wd146 (whoever came up with that technique is a genius) The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site) http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg Not being an avid woodworker or someone with much time using a table saw... I'm guessing that unless this adversely affects the chances of a kickback, it shouldn't cause any real problems... Just thinking out loud - How many people do you know that measure wood to ..001" or so? But I'm here to learn so I'll wait for the experts to answer. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com V8013-R |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
"RayV" wrote in message The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Your measurements are only as accurate as the instrument you used to do the measuring. Is 0.001" alignment close enough? If you mean the blade aligned to the miter slot, that real good. + .005 and it's generally considered that you have problems that need to be addressed Are you sure that indeed measured "blade runout"/warp/flatness, and your measurement does not arbor or flange runout also? There is a specific procedure for checking the flatness of a blade with that type of instrument: With the instrument, find and mark the high spot on the blade; loosen the nut and turn the blade 1/2 turn on the arbor; re-tighten the nut check for the high spot again; if the high spot coincides with the marked spot, then the it's due to blade warp, if not, then it's arbor or flange runout. Arbor and flange runout on a good table saw should be less than .001" I'm sure you'll get a lot more responses ... -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 9/30/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#7
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How much runout on TS is too much
RayV wrote:
The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Personally, I'd consider that just fine. Before you judge any test rip cuts, you should also ensure that your fence is parallel to the blade and the mitre slot. Chris |
#8
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How much runout on TS is too much
RayV wrote:
On Oct 15, 10:38 am, B A R R Y wrote: RayV wrote: Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? How do test rips look? Hard to tell, I went looking for a decent combination blade over the weekend but couldn't find one. The Avanti (50T $30) blade cuts right through Maple but leaves hatchet marks. I will stop at the Lumberyard today and see what they have, I will probably end up ordering one of these: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.co...worker_II.html I love my WWII's, but a 24T rip blade is easier to use on thicker stock. When I have more than a few rips to do, I take the time to install the rip blade. I've had Freud, CMT, and Ridge Carbide rip blades that I liked. |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
"RayV" wrote in message ps.com... The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site) http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg Regardless of the slight differences you see now, how does the cut look? Happy with the results? Stop fiddling. A typical Forrest blade when new is with in .001". The arbor run out on my saw when new was .0005". When I check my fence alignment I make a test cut. If there were tooth marks on the keeper side I would slightly adjust the fence on the back side away from the blade. Tooth marks on the waste side, move the back side of the fence slightly towards the blade. Yeah, you waste "a" scrap piece of wood doing this and if your saw is decent you only have to do this once every 3 or 4 years, maybe. Regardless of what kind of measuring equipment you use to set the saw up, you have no control over the fact that most wood does not remain dead flat or straight to the extent that those tiny measurements that you tweak you saw to come in to effect. They help but often wood can warp as you cut it. Wood often will move during the cut much more than the tolerances that you are looking at and then every thing becomes a moot point. Or wait a little while and Ed will try to sell you an aligner that may or may not help with the results of your cut. |
#10
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How much runout on TS is too much
"RayV" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 15, 10:38 am, B A R R Y wrote: RayV wrote: Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? How do test rips look? Hard to tell, I went looking for a decent combination blade over the weekend but couldn't find one. The Avanti (50T $30) blade cuts right through Maple but leaves hatchet marks. I will stop at the Lumberyard today and see what they have, I will probably end up ordering one of these: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.co...worker_II.html You can typically rule the blade out with that one but be sure to get the "regular kerf" blade. |
#11
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How much runout on TS is too much
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message news:TFLQi.5768$2o1.4756@trnddc03... "RayV" wrote in message Not being an avid woodworker or someone with much time using a table saw... I'm guessing that unless this adversely affects the chances of a kickback, it shouldn't cause any real problems... Just thinking out loud - How many people do you know that measure wood to .001" or so? Good point, but to answer the question, NO ONE does that. However the closer to perfect you get the blade to being parallel to the fence or perpendicular to the miter slot the less sanding you have to do. Typically I NEVER have to sand a ripped or mitered cut. You do not need fancy measuring equipment to set the saw up to make cuts like that. For some the measuring equipment makes it easier. For some it is an extra and unnecessary step. Results will tell you if the saw is set up right or not. |
#12
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How much runout on TS is too much
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Just thinking out loud - How many people do you know that measure wood to .001" or so? When fitting joints with a hand plane, it's fairly easy to take off a thou or two at a time. It's not so much measured as felt though...your fingertips can feel .003" fairly easily, it's roughly the thickness of a piece of paper. Chris |
#13
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 7:36 am, RayV wrote:
My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to check blade alignment. Good idea. Like cherry, maple is prone to show scorch marks and any closed grain wood will make blade marks more obvious. I cobbled together a jig similar to thishttp://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup That will do the trick for blade and fence alignment. My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my bladehttp://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jsp?storyid=/templatedata/wood... (whoever came up with that technique is a genius) I'm wondering why you think the alignment is this close. See my comments below. Is the "Ray Vojtash" of the Wood Mag article the same as "RayV" of this posted message? I'm not sure why you think the technique is special or better than any other "feel the rub" technique. It doesn't matter if you hold the stick (or bevel gauge blade) against the miter gauge or screw it onto the bar, it's the exact same technique. The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. It is a bit high, but not outrageous. It's probably not the silver coating on the blade (unless this coating is thick paint). This brings up the alignment question I mentioned above. How can you be sure of your alignment accuracy when the blade runout is three times higher? Did you mark a spot on the blade and make all your measurements on that spot (rotating the blade)? Or did you just run the indicator stylus along the surface of the blade? Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Yes. In general, anything less than 0.005" is good enough. I've done a lot of testing with various blades and woods. Even with magnification, I could not detect any improvement in the quality of the cut surface for alignment error below 0.005" Is 0.003" blade runout too much? It means that your cut surface will have ripples in it that are 0.003" deep. The size and shape of these ripples will depend on how high you raise the blade and how fast you feed the stock. This sort of defect can easily be seen and felt on exposed surfaces so expect it to require some extra cleanup. Good quality modern glues don't generally have any trouble filling 0.003" gaps between mating surfaces. You need to determine if this runout is due to blade warp or an arbor/ flange problem. You can easily use your setup to check both the arbor and the flange. You will want to tilt the arbor so that the dial indicator can meet the surface of the flange at 90 degrees. You will want to leave the arbor at 0 degrees to check arbor runout. Hopefully there is a spot along the surface of the arbor where you can avoid the threads. You should see less than 0.001" runout on both of these. Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? The best practice is to keep the dial indicator plunger at 90 degrees to the surface being measured (zero degrees tilt). When the dial indicator is tilted at an angle it introduces error into the reading. The error is going to make the reading look higher than actual changes in the surface being measured. It will also exaggerate any instability in your dial indicator fixturing. (as seen here, but not my site)http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg You can calculate the actual geometry from the dial indicator reading. It is equal to the dial indicator reading times the cosine of the tilt (away from 90). The cosine of zero degrees is 1 (best situation). If you are tilting your indicator by 30 degrees, then multiply your readings by 0.86 to see what it would read if there were no tilt. Tilting the indicator is a better alternative than using one of those flat blade replacement plates. Apart from the monetary savings ($40 or more), and the time you save not needing to swap out your blade, you won't be introducing a reference surface with unknown errors. The specs on one popular plate seen in catalogs and online are +/-0.003". You could think that you've aligned your saw properly when all you actually did was align it to match the warp in the blade replacement plate. Feel free to ask questions. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#14
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 2:09 pm, Ed Bennett wrote:
My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my bladehttp://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jsp?storyid=/templatedata/wood... (whoever came up with that technique is a genius) I'm wondering why you think the alignment is this close. See my comments below. Is the "Ray Vojtash" of the Wood Mag article the same as "RayV" of this posted message? sure is. How can you be sure of your alignment accuracy when the blade runout is three times higher? Did you mark a spot on the blade and make all your measurements on that spot (rotating the blade)? yes Is 0.003" blade runout too much? It means that your cut surface will have ripples in it that are 0.003" deep. The size and shape of these ripples will depend on how high you raise the blade and how fast you feed the stock. This sort of defect can easily be seen and felt on exposed surfaces so expect it to require some extra cleanup. That makes sense. You need to determine if this runout is due to blade warp or an arbor/ flange problem. I'm going to check it by rotating the blade and then checking the arbor and flange. I suspect that this $30 blade is warped because when I've ripped with a good 80T blade I've nearly finish ready surfaces. Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? The best practice is to keep the dial indicator plunger at 90 degrees to the surface being measured (zero degrees tilt). When the dial indicator is tilted at an angle it introduces error into the reading. The error is going to make the reading look higher than actual changes in the surface being measured. It will also exaggerate any instability in your dial indicator fixturing. You can calculate the actual geometry from the dial indicator reading. It is equal to the dial indicator reading times the cosine of the tilt (away from 90). The cosine of zero degrees is 1 (best situation). If you are tilting your indicator by 30 degrees, then multiply your readings by 0.86 to see what it would read if there were no tilt. Thanks. I'll see if I can modify my jig to get it closer to 90deg so I don't need to look for my calculator. The indicator I have does have a pin 180 from the working end but I would have to grind the lug off of the back to make using that worthwhile. I might be able to get the back lug to go below the table if I measure from the left side of the blade. Your point about the blade runout equaling depth of hash marks on the wood makes sense to me so I will investigate that further. Thanks Ed. Tilting the indicator is a better alternative than using one of those flat blade replacement plates. Apart from the monetary savings ($40 or more), and the time you save not needing to swap out your blade, you won't be introducing a reference surface with unknown errors. The specs on one popular plate seen in catalogs and online are +/-0.003". You could think that you've aligned your saw properly when all you actually did was align it to match the warp in the blade replacement plate. Feel free to ask questions. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#15
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 2:09 pm, Ed Bennett wrote:
On Oct 15, 7:36 am, RayV wrote: snip Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? The best practice is to keep the dial indicator plunger at 90 degrees to the surface being measured (zero degrees tilt). snip Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner Looking at your site just made me realize that I don't need the indicator near the table to check blade runout. I can do that up high. I just need to get it close to 90deg near the table to check my alignment. Thanks again. |
#16
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 9:47 am, "Leon" wrote:
Regardless of what kind of measuring equipment you use to set the saw up, you have no control over the fact that most wood does not remain dead flat or straight to the extent that those tiny measurements that you tweak you saw to come in to effect. They help but often wood can warp as you cut it. Wood often will move during the cut much more than the tolerances that you are looking at and then every thing becomes a moot point. This is very true. Most wood just can't hold these sorts of tolerances. Even the heat generated by cutting will cause dimensional changes on the order of 0.001". But, like you said previously, we're not talking about working wood to within a few thousandths of an inch. We're talking about aligning a machine. The goal here is to make sure that the machine doesn't introduce additional problems (beyond those inherent in the wood). You want to avoid having to clean-up or re-work something that the machine could have done correctly to begin with. Wood does change dimensionally over time. So, the wise and skillful woodworker will not to allow a lot of time between cutting and fitting parts together. In other words, don't cut out all the parts one day and then try to assemble them on another day - especially if you expect the weather to change. Also, if you notice a board warping or twisting during a rip cut, it's a very significant sign that the particular piece of wood doesn't belong in your project. It was improperly dried ("case hardened") and will be nothing but trouble if you use it (reminds me of an armoire my brother made). Or wait a little while and Ed will try to sell you an aligner that may or may not help with the results of your cut. There's a "definite maybe" if I've ever seen one! Spoken with true conviction. Hey! What's that sharp steel thing hanging out of my mouth? What the?!?!? Heck Leon, are you fishing again? Geez! Can't a guy offer some helpful assistance without getting trolled? I didn't suggest that he buy anything. With regard to his setup I said: "That will do the trick...". Is that what you Texas boys call the "hard sell"? Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#17
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How much runout on TS is too much
"Ed Bennett" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 15, 9:47 am, "Leon" wrote: .. This is very true. Most wood just can't hold these sorts of tolerances. Even the heat generated by cutting will cause dimensional changes on the order of 0.001". But, like you said previously, we're not talking about working wood to within a few thousandths of an inch. We're talking about aligning a machine. The goal here is to make sure that the machine doesn't introduce additional problems (beyond those inherent in the wood). You want to avoid having to clean-up or re-work something that the machine could have done correctly to begin with. Exactly and as I mention in another post, I seldom need to address cut edges other than to bring them to the same smoothness as the other project when sanding. Snip There's a "definite maybe" if I've ever seen one! Spoken with true conviction. LOL, "definate maybe", the earliest that I recall using that comment was in the Fall of 1972 when speaking to the store district manager. I was in my first year of college and the "definate maybe" answer to his question brought a "College Kid Answer" from him. ;~) Hey! What's that sharp steel thing hanging out of my mouth? What the?!?!? Heck Leon, are you fishing again? Geez! Can't a guy offer some helpful assistance without getting trolled? I didn't suggest that he buy anything. With regard to his setup I said: "That will do the trick...". Is that what you Texas boys call the "hard sell"? LOL, Ed I was just seeing if you were paying attention. ;~) |
#18
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How much runout on TS is too much
Leon,
Why do you recommend "regular kerf"? (I presume this is rather than "thin" kerf.) I have been told that one should not use a thin kerf blade on a 3hp cabinet saw but don't know if this is bs or what. Best, David "Leon" wrote in message . net... "RayV" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 15, 10:38 am, B A R R Y wrote: RayV wrote: Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? How do test rips look? Hard to tell, I went looking for a decent combination blade over the weekend but couldn't find one. The Avanti (50T $30) blade cuts right through Maple but leaves hatchet marks. I will stop at the Lumberyard today and see what they have, I will probably end up ordering one of these: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.co...worker_II.html You can typically rule the blade out with that one but be sure to get the "regular kerf" blade. |
#19
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How much runout on TS is too much
"David Todtman" wrote in message news:aYSQi.66141$th2.25985@pd7urf3no... Leon, Why do you recommend "regular kerf"? (I presume this is rather than "thin" kerf.) I have been told that one should not use a thin kerf blade on a 3hp cabinet saw but don't know if this is bs or what. Best, David I used thin kerf for years because they cut so "fast". I was not happy with the cuts. They were never quite true enough for me and even with a stiffener which limited the depth of cut I was not happy. In 1989 I talked to my local tool dealer and blade sharpener. They still sharpen blades but do not sell tools. I asked what he recommended for a good combination blade. He recommended a Systematic combo "Regular Kerf". He told me, and I agree with that statement to this day that a "good quality and sharp" regular kerf blade will cut just as smoothly and effortlessly as any thin kerf blade. Plus you get flat bevels, miters, and compound bevel cuts. At the time I was using a 1 hp Craftsman TS and never again put a thin kerf blade on my saw. About 8 years ago I up graded to a 3 hp cabinet saw and immediately upgraded to the Forrest WWII regular kerf 40 tooth blade. A few years ago I bought another Forrest WWII to have on hand while Forrest resharpens the other. I also strongly recommend Forrest for resharpening. They can retune the blade if necessary when they resharpen it. If you are buying a cheap blade, a thin kerf may be the better choice but if you have your sat properly set up and want dead flat cuts a "Quality" regular kerf blade is the way to go. Thin kerf makes it easier for a low powered saw cut through hard woods. A sharp good quality regular kerf blade can do this also. As for why you should not use a thin kerf blade on a 3hp saw, probably because the blade will not deliver the precision that a better quality saw is capable of delivering. |
#20
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How much runout on TS is too much
"Leon" wrote in message . net... "Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message news:TFLQi.5768$2o1.4756@trnddc03... "RayV" wrote in message Not being an avid woodworker or someone with much time using a table saw... I'm guessing that unless this adversely affects the chances of a kickback, it shouldn't cause any real problems... Just thinking out loud - How many people do you know that measure wood to .001" or so? Good point, but to answer the question, NO ONE does that. (raising hand in a grade school manner...) I do. I will be the first to admit that I go overboard, but since I work to .0001 or so during the day, going to a .001 or so, doesn't seem like that big of a stretch. However the closer to perfect you get the blade to being parallel to the fence or perpendicular to the miter slot the less sanding you have to do. Typically I NEVER have to sand a ripped or mitered cut. Absolutely...if you don't get the machine accurate, the part can NOT be accurate without fiddling with something somewhere....easier to do it on the first operation, I think. You do not need fancy measuring equipment to set the saw up to make cuts like that. For some the measuring equipment makes it easier. For some it is an extra and unnecessary step. Results will tell you if the saw is set up right or not. Also very right...the finish of the ripped board is what counts...assuming that you'll make an adjustment if the size is off, if the finish is there, that's most of the battle. Mike |
#21
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:36:54 -0700, RayV
wrote: My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to check blade alignment. I cobbled together a jig similar to this http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my blade http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/sto...l&catref=wd146 (whoever came up with that technique is a genius) The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought. Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site) http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg I also check the blade for parrallism to the miter slot with the blade all the way out ( but not on the stop) and down as far as you can and still get a measurement. The main thing is to not have the blade cut wood on the back side at any depth of cut . |
#22
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How much runout on TS is too much-followup
Followup:
Returned the 'Silver' coated Avanti blade and ordered a 50T Frued Diablo. Probably not as good as a WWII but half the price. I am also very happy with the 80T Diablo I have, cuts great and will easily rip 3/4" Maple even though it is not made to do so. Checked the runout on my arbor, barely perceptible ~0.00015. Good. Checked the runout on the flange and at first it was ~0.0015! Then I noticed that even touching the belt caused the needle to jump (contractor saw). So I took the belt off and the flange runout is ~0.0003 after a little touch up with emery cloth, good enough for me. Put the original 28T Jet blade on that made maybe three cuts in its life and the blade runout was 0.005! WTF? Spun it 180 and now the runout was 0.001. Spun it back and runout was 0.002? Took the blade off to see that it was scratched/smutzed up. Emery clothed it and now the runout is around 0.001 in any position (without the belt). I'm satisfied the saw is OK and the Avanti blade was a POS. OK, so is all this checking worth it? I think it is, it takes maybe five minutes to check the runout of a newly mounted blade. Well worth it to find out that an errant wood chip got stuck between the blade and the flange making a smooth cut nearly impossible. I plan to keep the dial indicator in a much handier spot. That way I can check a blade that has been lying around for a year with an Allen wrech under one side and a stacked dado set sitting on top of it ;-). Enough measuring, I need sleep so I can make some sawdust tomorrow. |
#23
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 9:36 am, RayV wrote:
My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to check blade alignment. I cobbled together a jig similar to thishttp://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup Do any PM 66 owners here know the tolerances of their saws? I aligned my humble Delta contractor's saw with that jig, and it cuts easier than any 66 I've ever seen. I think I got the blade parallel to the slot to within 0.002". |
#24
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 8:47 pm, klaatu wrote:
Verata Nictu? Necktie? |
#25
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How much runout on TS is too much
"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... Good point, but to answer the question, NO ONE does that. (raising hand in a grade school manner...) I do. I think Jow was refering to ripping a board to width 3" +, - .001" If you are doing "that", don't remeasure today's rip tomorrow. :~) |
#26
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 16, 12:20 am, "Leon" wrote:
"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... Good point, but to answer the question, NO ONE does that. (raising hand in a grade school manner...) I do. I think Jow was refering to ripping a board to width 3" +, - .001" If you are doing "that", don't remeasure today's rip tomorrow. :~) Yeah, rilly. |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 15, 10:13 pm, Ferd Farkel wrote:
Do any PM 66 owners here know the tolerances of their saws? I aligned my humble Delta contractor's saw with that jig, and it cuts easier than any 66 I've ever seen. I think I got the blade parallel to the slot to within 0.002". I don't happen to have a PM66 handy right now, but I'm very familiar with it. It's a fine machine. I wouldn't mind trading in my Unisaw for one. I wouldn't trade one for any contractor's saw. If it isn't aligned properly, the best table saw can perform much worse than an everyday humble contractor's saw. I know for a fact that there are a lot of real cheap junkers out there outperforming high end cabinet saws. Alignment does make a difference. When I look at comparative reviews of machinery, the first thing I look for is a description of how the machine was prepared. Most reviewers ignore alignment completely. Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. I don't think I've seen a reviewer pay attention to setup and alignment since Kelly Mehler's table saw review in the April 2003 edition of Woodworker's Journal. You can't make valid comparisons between two machines until they are both properly setup and aligned. Glad to see that Kelly understood this - wish more did. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 16, 1:29 pm, Ed Bennett wrote:
On Oct 15, 10:13 pm, Ferd Farkel wrote: Do any PM 66 owners here know the tolerances of their saws? I aligned my humble Delta contractor's saw with that jig, and it cuts easier than any 66 I've ever seen. I think I got the blade parallel to the slot to within 0.002". I don't happen to have a PM66 handy right now, but I'm very familiar with it. It's a fine machine. I wouldn't mind trading in my Unisaw for one. I wouldn't trade one for any contractor's saw. If it isn't aligned properly, the best table saw can perform much worse than an everyday humble contractor's saw. I know for a fact that there are a lot of real cheap junkers out there outperforming high end cabinet saws. Alignment does make a difference. The 66 is a great machine, made for shops that turn it on at 8 AM and off at 5. When I look at comparative reviews of machinery, the first thing I look for is a description of how the machine was prepared. Most reviewers ignore alignment completely. Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. I don't think I've seen a reviewer pay attention to setup and alignment since Kelly Mehler's table saw review in the April 2003 edition of Woodworker's Journal. You can't make valid comparisons between two machines until they are both properly setup and aligned. Glad to see that Kelly understood this - wish more did. I aligned my Delta for safety, with the rear trunnion bolts upgraded to PALS brackets. Improved cut quality is a welcome side benefit. |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:29:16 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote: Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner An insulting and misleading statement. Leads the reader to consider that there is no basis for quality judgement and comparison from the alignment done on the assembly line by the manufacturer. The truth is unless the component parts are just terrible, all saws can be "set" to very close to zero at 90 degrees and I suspect that most manufacturers have assembly procedures that achieve that using rather sophisticated set up tools. I know one does at least. As the blade is tilted, it is exactly the "quality of the workmanship" of the component parts that determines the reading at 45 degrees and the difference between the two figures is an excellent indicator of the quality of workmanship when comparing different units. The flatter the table, the more parallel the boss plane to the top, the flatter the cabinet top plate plane, the more accurate the trunnion/brackets, yoke assembly and arbor assembly, the closer that 45 degree figure will stay to zero out of the box. While there are certain things you can do to offset the tolerance stackup of some of those parts if others are bad "you got what you got". Frank |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
When I look at comparative reviews of machinery, the first thing I look for is a description of how the machine was prepared. Most reviewers ignore alignment completely. Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. I don't think I've seen a reviewer pay attention to setup and alignment since Kelly Mehler's table saw review in the April 2003 edition of Woodworker's Journal. You can't make valid comparisons between two machines until they are both properly setup and aligned. Glad to see that Kelly understood this - wish more did. factory setup is a relevant data point, in that it indicates how much care the Mfr. puts into final stage QC., less shipping jostling. the shipping is the real bugger for factory setup... you're always gonna have to do some alignment to a machine that has been moved. a good argument can be made that the consumer benefits more from the effort and QC. going somewhere other than into factory alignment, but it also can be argued that the production line that aligns each and every saw will have a better handle on and more interest in all of the upstream precision machining processes. me, I mostly buy old machines anyway, so factory alignment is kinda a moot point in my shop. |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
wrote in message oups.com... factory setup is a relevant data point, in that it indicates how much care the Mfr. puts into final stage QC., less shipping jostling. the shipping is the real bugger for factory setup... you're always gonna have to do some alignment to a machine that has been moved. I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. A company that does not take measures to insure that a product is delivered in the same shape it leaves the factory has no "real" QC as far as the customer is concerned. What really matters is that the sale is completed with a product that is delivered in the same shape that it leaves the factory. Blaming the shipping company is a pittyful excuse and is simply dropping the ball where the customer is concerned. If the manufacturer does not package, package properly for shipping, and monitor the shipper to insure delivery of undamaged products it may as well nave no QC at all. Ignoring those facts is what has gotten many of them in the jam that they are in today. Sorry to mention this again Frank, Delta had a problem with broken trunions on their Unisaws some 10 years ago. Does it really matter why the trunion arrived broken? The consumer saw a product that was broken. That was the #1 reason I chose the Jet over the Delta when I bought 7-8 years ago. The Delta setting on the show room floor with the "broken tag" attached to the top was not inviting. The saw looked fine. My Jet cabinet saw was delivered with no adjustment needed after factory alignment, that goes for my Laguna BS, and Delta stationary planer. |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:02:01 -0500, "Leon"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... factory setup is a relevant data point, in that it indicates how much care the Mfr. puts into final stage QC., less shipping jostling. the shipping is the real bugger for factory setup... you're always gonna have to do some alignment to a machine that has been moved. I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. A company that does not take measures to insure that a product is delivered in the same shape it leaves the factory has no "real" QC as far as the customer is concerned. What really matters is that the sale is completed with a product that is delivered in the same shape that it leaves the factory. Blaming the shipping company is a pittyful excuse and is simply dropping the ball where the customer is concerned. If the manufacturer does not package, package properly for shipping, and monitor the shipper to insure delivery of undamaged products it may as well nave no QC at all. Ignoring those facts is what has gotten many of them in the jam that they are in today. Sorry to mention this again Frank, Delta had a problem with broken trunions on their Unisaws some 10 years ago. Does it really matter why the trunion arrived broken? The consumer saw a product that was broken. That was the #1 reason I chose the Jet over the Delta when I bought 7-8 years ago. The Delta setting on the show room floor with the "broken tag" attached to the top was not inviting. The saw looked fine. And since you mentioned it again I'll reiterate the facts. As a percentage of units shipped a small number of units were damaged in shipment in a way that caused trunions to break. Extensivel testing determined that what caused the breakage was a full running tipover where the unit was slammed over on a concrete dock or tipped out of a warehouse rack. I seriously doubt that any "packaging" would have stopped that from happening, but in any event, you as a consumer would not want to pay for it. When a rather expensive improper handling device was added to the packaging, the problem went away. Your distributor, who left a broken unit on his floor did not have to. Delta was allowing immediate freight allowed RMA's and replacement units for any damaged units as they did for any type of damage. Why your distributor chose to keep the saw is a mystery to me. No end user customer was ever "stuck" with a unit that had broken trunions. If the distributor had used the RMA process, you as a consumer, would not have had the opportunity to see the broken tag. Your comment about "may as well have no QC at all" is insulting to those involved with it and is, of course, your opinion with full right to express it on an open forum Frank My Jet cabinet saw was delivered with no adjustment needed after factory alignment, that goes for my Laguna BS, and Delta stationary planer. |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Boettcher" And since you mentioned it again I'll reiterate the facts. As a percentage of units shipped a small number of units were damaged in shipment in a way that caused trunions to break. Extensivel testing determined that what caused the breakage was a full running tipover where the unit was slammed over on a concrete dock or tipped out of a warehouse rack. I seriously doubt that any "packaging" would have stopped that from happening, but in any event, you as a consumer would not want to pay for it. When a rather expensive improper handling device was added to the packaging, the problem went away. Exactly, Delta recognised the problem and provided a fix rather than let it continue. Your distributor, who left a broken unit on his floor did not have to. Delta was allowing immediate freight allowed RMA's and replacement units for any damaged units as they did for any type of damage. Why your distributor chose to keep the saw is a mystery to me. No end user customer was ever "stuck" with a unit that had broken trunions. If the distributor had used the RMA process, you as a consumer, would not have had the opportunity to see the broken tag. I don't know the details however the distrubutor did indicate that they had been waiting for Delta to send a replacement trunion. The saw looked factory freah and IIRC the distributor has 20+ stores in Texas. Perhaps the unit was damaged during delivery to the store vs perhaps from a warehouse. I do recall mentioning the problem with the saw way back when and was actually contacted by a Delta rep inquiring where this saw was located so that the parts could be delivered. He did not mention that the saw would be exchanged. Time may have been a decising factor. Your comment about "may as well have no QC at all" is insulting to those involved with it and is, of course, your opinion with full right to express it on an open forum Well Frank, a comment that may be perceived as an insult to some is often perceived as a unique opportunity to fix a problem by others. Excuses do not fix problems. Those that act on that valuable information tend to stay in business and or not get sold every few years. You should absolutely not take offense if you were not responsible. It can be said that it is equally insulting to the buyer when the manufacturer defends a product and or its manufacturing and delivery by blaiming how the product was handled. WHO chooses the shipping company? The dealer/consumer does not care, as the fact remains that the equipment is in no condition to be used. No one but the manufacturer is responsable for its merchandise and how it arrives because they are the only ones that can do something different to remedy the problem. Ultimately the manufacturer needs to eat a slice of humble pie and get with the program, catch up with the competition, and deliver what the buyer expects to get. Imagine going to a new car dealership with 1% of the vehicles coming off of the deliveries trucks being wrecked badly enough that it cannot be sold. For the average dealership in Houston that would be 1 to 2 vehicles every week. It probably happens but in the 10 years that I worked for an automobile dealership I never saw it happen. GM used to have a terrible problem with damaged parts deliveries. They switched to a dedicated carrier with equipment specifically designed to deliver auto parts and sheet metal with out damage. They may have considered it an insult when we dealership managers complained about the quality of the packaging and delivery process however we never heard complaints from GM. |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:53:59 GMT, "Leon"
wrote: Please excuse my top post,no offense is intended, but I've been down this road with you many times over about a five year period. Not going there again. Any one interested can google away. I will always just single post respond when you bring it up, provide a brief outline of the facts, let anyone who reads make up their minds. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Boettcher" And since you mentioned it again I'll reiterate the facts. As a percentage of units shipped a small number of units were damaged in shipment in a way that caused trunions to break. Extensivel testing determined that what caused the breakage was a full running tipover where the unit was slammed over on a concrete dock or tipped out of a warehouse rack. I seriously doubt that any "packaging" would have stopped that from happening, but in any event, you as a consumer would not want to pay for it. When a rather expensive improper handling device was added to the packaging, the problem went away. Exactly, Delta recognised the problem and provided a fix rather than let it continue. Your distributor, who left a broken unit on his floor did not have to. Delta was allowing immediate freight allowed RMA's and replacement units for any damaged units as they did for any type of damage. Why your distributor chose to keep the saw is a mystery to me. No end user customer was ever "stuck" with a unit that had broken trunions. If the distributor had used the RMA process, you as a consumer, would not have had the opportunity to see the broken tag. I don't know the details however the distrubutor did indicate that they had been waiting for Delta to send a replacement trunion. The saw looked factory freah and IIRC the distributor has 20+ stores in Texas. Perhaps the unit was damaged during delivery to the store vs perhaps from a warehouse. I do recall mentioning the problem with the saw way back when and was actually contacted by a Delta rep inquiring where this saw was located so that the parts could be delivered. He did not mention that the saw would be exchanged. Time may have been a decising factor. Your comment about "may as well have no QC at all" is insulting to those involved with it and is, of course, your opinion with full right to express it on an open forum Well Frank, a comment that may be perceived as an insult to some is often perceived as a unique opportunity to fix a problem by others. Excuses do not fix problems. Those that act on that valuable information tend to stay in business and or not get sold every few years. You should absolutely not take offense if you were not responsible. It can be said that it is equally insulting to the buyer when the manufacturer defends a product and or its manufacturing and delivery by blaiming how the product was handled. WHO chooses the shipping company? The dealer/consumer does not care, as the fact remains that the equipment is in no condition to be used. No one but the manufacturer is responsable for its merchandise and how it arrives because they are the only ones that can do something different to remedy the problem. Ultimately the manufacturer needs to eat a slice of humble pie and get with the program, catch up with the competition, and deliver what the buyer expects to get. Imagine going to a new car dealership with 1% of the vehicles coming off of the deliveries trucks being wrecked badly enough that it cannot be sold. For the average dealership in Houston that would be 1 to 2 vehicles every week. It probably happens but in the 10 years that I worked for an automobile dealership I never saw it happen. GM used to have a terrible problem with damaged parts deliveries. They switched to a dedicated carrier with equipment specifically designed to deliver auto parts and sheet metal with out damage. They may have considered it an insult when we dealership managers complained about the quality of the packaging and delivery process however we never heard complaints from GM. |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 17, 8:34 pm, wrote:
factory setup is a relevant data point, in that it indicates how much care the Mfr. puts into final stage QC., less shipping jostling. the shipping is the real bugger for factory setup... you're always gonna have to do some alignment to a machine that has been moved. a good argument can be made that the consumer benefits more from the effort and QC. going somewhere other than into factory alignment, but it also can be argued that the production line that aligns each and every saw will have a better handle on and more interest in all of the upstream precision machining processes. me, I mostly buy old machines anyway, so factory alignment is kinda a moot point in my shop. I think it's important for the factory to test machinery before it ships. And, you can't tell if a machine is operating properly (accurately) unless it's aligned. Aligning it at the factory also proves that it can be aligned. You would be amazed at the number of customers who call me to say that they cannot move the trunnions enough to obtain proper blade alignment because the castings are so far out of whack. My own unisaw was incapable of blade tilt all the way to 45 degrees as delivered. I had to go after the castings with a file (as recommended by the tech support guy) before it worked properly. It's not very reasonable to expect that a machine can maintain proper alignment after riding around on fork lifts, in trucks, and on rail cars. The amount of vibration and thermal variation that it receives would challenge the skills of even the best engineers to come up with ways to maintain alignment. It would be a waste of time and money to implement such countermeasures to ensure that factory alignment was maintained during shipping. If a manufacturer really wants to ensure the best customer experience, then they should sell through dealers who provide accurate setup and alignment at no extra charge. But, in this "big box" retail world, it's not a very practical option. In the 16 years that I've been making TS-Aligners (many thousands of units), I think I've heard from only 3-4 customers who said that their machine was accurately aligned from the factory. I chalk it up to pure luck. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 17, 3:46 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:29:16 -0700, Ed Bennett wrote: Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner An insulting and misleading statement. Leads the reader to consider that there is no basis for quality judgement and comparison from the alignment done on the assembly line by the manufacturer. I don't know why anybody would take offense Frank. I really don't think it's reasonable to expect a machine to maintain proper alignment after riding around on forklifts, trucks, and rail cars. The vibrations and thermal changes virtually guarantee that alignment will be lost during shipping. If I were personally responsible for aligning and testing table saws at the end of a production line I would not be surprised or offended to learn that 99.9% of the machines that I so carefully aligned arrived completely out of whack. It's just physics. My Unisaw needed alignment, and it came with a bunch of "shock watch" tags on it. I think a manufacturer cannot verify that a machine is defect free until they properly align and test it. And, the quality can be clearly judged inferior if a machine cannot be properly aligned. But, the state of alignment as delivered "out of the box" is pretty much irrelevant. The truth is unless the component parts are just terrible, all saws can be "set" to very close to zero at 90 degrees and I suspect that most manufacturers have assembly procedures that achieve that using rather sophisticated set up tools. I know one does at least. As the blade is tilted, it is exactly the "quality of the workmanship" of the component parts that determines the reading at 45 degrees and the difference between the two figures is an excellent indicator of the quality of workmanship when comparing different units. The flatter the table, the more parallel the boss plane to the top, the flatter the cabinet top plate plane, the more accurate the trunnion/brackets, yoke assembly and arbor assembly, the closer that 45 degree figure will stay to zero out of the box. I agree, there are certain aspects of alignment (like the tilt axis parallelism to the table top that you mention here) that are dependent on quality of manufacture. It would be incredibly easy (and inexpensive) to implement in-process 100% inspection of every single casting that gets machined. And, the use of the Meehanite casting process would significantly reduce (eliminate) post machining warpage. I suspect that only an exceptional manufacturer would do such things. And, if they really did, then I would expect that none of their saws would require shimming under the trunnions or between the base and the table (or, such a small number that you would just never hear about it). Having heard of this problem from owners of all the most popular brands, I suspect that they really aren't doing anything substantial in this area. My 80's vintage "Proudly made in the USA" Unisaw needed shimming (among things) before it would operate properly. So, whatever Delta did before shipping my machine, it didn't help much. While there are certain things you can do to offset the tolerance stackup of some of those parts if others are bad "you got what you got". This might be how I "got what I got" with my Unisaw. If the tolerances stack up so that the product (when fully assembled) can not be properly aligned (without shimming, filing, or other modifications), then any mechanical engineer will tell you that the manufacturing process is poorly designed. Tolerances are *supposed* to define the range of variability for which no defect can occur. Unfortunately, too many manufacturers define their tolerances as the range of variability for which an affordable amount of warranty expense occurs. I'm in the "zero defect" camp, not the "acceptable warranty liability" camp - which never made me very popular with the bean-counter types. They were always glad that I only did the numbers, not the decisions. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:15:02 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote: all snipped My mistake Ed. I should have assumed you would not see the offense. But the mistake was mine. I should never have reacted. It offered you another chance to extend your not so subtle spam campaign. Won't happen again. Frank |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:53:59 GMT, "Leon" wrote: Please excuse my top post,no offense is intended, but I've been down this road with you many times over about a five year period. Not going there again. Any one interested can google away. I will always just single post respond when you bring it up, provide a brief outline of the facts, let anyone who reads make up their minds. Frank Where is there to go Frank? I was only pointing out that a manufacturers responsibility is and the "Fact" that Delta had problems with broken trunions. Why they had problems is beside the point as far as their target audience is concerned. Ultimately Delta made changes to lessen the problem, right? And to be fair, Delta was not the only company that had shipping problems. Grizzly had a tremendous problem with their shipper several years back. Apparently they too have taken steps to correct the problem. |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
On Oct 18, 1:43 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:15:02 -0700, Ed Bennett wrote: all snipped My mistake Ed. I should have assumed you would not see the offense. But the mistake was mine. I should never have reacted. It offered you another chance to extend your not so subtle spam campaign. Won't happen again. Frank I still don't see it Frank. Why don't you explain it? The comment wasn't directed at any particular person, company, or machine. It was a comment about some who do machinery reviews without any technical expertise. Did you author such a review article? Why does a guy who proudly declares that he has never checked the alignment of his saw get offended when someone says that it's pretty ignorant to judge the quality of a machine by the accuracy of it's factory alignment? Why does a guy who says "just make sawdust" to someone who wants to correct misalignment in their saw get so offended when someone says that it's pretty ignorant to judge the quality of a machine by the accuracy of it's factory alignment? I think my Unisaw is a great machine. I have been real hard on it for about 20 years and it's still amazingly accurate. I didn't expect it to be well aligned "right out of the box" and it wasn't. If I had been so misguided, I might have concluded that it was a poor quality machine. That would have been a big mistake on my part. Ya, it took some filing and some shimming to get it fully aligned but It was a one- time event so I didn't make such a big deal out of it. I share that info here with the hope that I can steer others clear of making such an ignorant misjudgement of quality. If there's real cause for offense, then you know that I will appologize - and it won't be one of those backhanded "...if there was something I said.." BS appologies. And I'll do it without any expectation of reciprocation (in spite of the "spam campaign" comment, which was intended as an insult). Just explain why you are personally insulted when someone says that the quality of a machine should not be judged by the accuracy of its factory alignment. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner.com |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much runout on TS is too much
Ed Bennett wrote:
: Just explain why you are personally insulted when someone says that : the quality of a machine should not be judged by the accuracy of its : factory alignment. And more to the point, the accuracy of its factory alignment as affected by its post-factory experiences being shipped across the ocean and loaded/unloaded on any number of conveyances. Then hauled into a shop, uncrated, and possibly rolled around out of its crate during assembly. -- Andy Barss |
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