On Oct 18, 5:44 pm, Maxwell Lol wrote:
I think you should has said "alignment when received by the customer."

In Frank's case, the poor alignment was not the fault of the factory,
which Frank was personally involved with. Yet your phrase appears to
place the blame squarely on the factory.

Hmmm... I suppose I can see your point...sort-of. I have been using
"factory alignment" interchangably with "out of the box". I didn't
think that there would be any confusion - especially since I explained
in great detail how the factory alignment gets disturbed. And, since
I also explained why factory alignment is important (to properly test
the machine) I'm still left wondering how he could have taken offense
- especially since he's made it pretty clear that he thinks alignment
is not worth bothering with.

I pretty much want to stick to the statement that Frank quoted and
find out why he felt that it was so "insulting and misleading". It
was a commentary about people who do a poor job evaluating the quality
of a machine, not on the company or the employees that produce the
machine. Would he prefer that I conclude that my Unisaw, and the saws
of 99% of my customers are low quality just because they didn't arrive
with good alignment? I think that would be much more misleading and
insulting (not to mention ignorant).

There really was no insult intended in my statement. I cannot imagine
the connection between Frank and reviewers who judge a machine's
quality by it's "as arrived" alignment. If he does take it as an
insult to his work and the company that he works for, then maybe he
should consider how his intentionally insulting comments have affected
others.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Ed Bennett wrote:
On Oct 18, 5:44 pm, Maxwell Lol wrote:
I think you should has said "alignment when received by the customer."

In Frank's case, the poor alignment was not the fault of the factory,
which Frank was personally involved with. Yet your phrase appears to
place the blame squarely on the factory.

Hmmm... I suppose I can see your point...sort-of. ...
I pretty much want to stick to the statement that Frank quoted and
find out why he felt that it was so "insulting and misleading". ...

Clearly, because he interpreted as a dig at the manufacturer and has a
long past with one which unfortunately, ended up quite badly.
Nevertheless, he has a lot invested and can't let that go...

Just let it be, please...

--

"dpb" wrote in message

Just let it be, please...

The "Reality Distortion Machine", once started, must obfuscate, and insult
with innuendo, ad infinitum. Thunderbird has a "blocked sender" feature ...
use it and do us all a favor.

Thanks ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/17/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

The "Reality Distortion Machine", once started, must obfuscate, and insult
with innuendo, ad infinitum.

Ahhhh, smear politics.

--
NuWave Dave in Houston

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:37:26 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

...

The "Reality Distortion Machine", once started, must obfuscate, and insult
with innuendo, ad infinitum.

Succinct, but remarkably insightful.

Frank

Leon wrote:
Where is there to go Frank? I was only pointing out that a
manufacturers responsibility is and the "Fact" that Delta had
problems with broken trunions. Why they had problems is beside the
point as far as their target audience is concerned.

Not particularly true......as a consumer if a product has a particular
design flaw or simply suffers from inept shipping it is of note. Even
significant if down the road one must move the saw to another location one
might need to know shipping precautions. On the other hand if said expensive
product has a particular design flaw a replacement part may still leave you
with a soon to expire machine just past warrantee......why does indeed
matter.

Rod


..

On Oct 19, 7:05 am, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Ed Bennett writes:
I'm still left wondering how he could have taken offense
- especially since he's made it pretty clear that he thinks alignment
is not worth bothering with.

No no no! That's not what I understand.

In another thread ("Trouble setting up new table saw") a guy named Dan
was trying to resolve an alignment problem. Frank advised him that it
wasn't worth bothering over. "lock it down" and "just make sawdust".
Don't you remember, you happened to disagree with that particular
advice:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...0bf3217a65a571

His company was responsible for the alignment, and it was done right
and "WAS worth bothering over."

Ya, that's the rub. Do you now see the contradiction? While Frank
was arguing "just make sawdust" in the "Trouble setting up new table
saw" thread, he knew full well how important alignment really is. To
Dan he says "just make sawdust" but in his job he insists that the
alignment is done right. He gets all bent out of shape if someone
says anything that could possibly be misconstrued as a vague
implication that the factory alignment isn't accurate.

Well, you basicly said the factory alignment should not be trusted.
Essentially you said that a reviewer should assume all factories screw
up. That is a good idea for reviewers, however look at it from
Frank's perspective.

I didn't say or even imply that the factory had done it wrong. In my
followup I made it abundantly clear why I thought it was folly to
judge a saw's quality based on it's "out of the box" alignment. I'm
sorry that Frank has put himself through this torture over his
misunderstanding of my statement. It was not meant to disparage his
company or any other company. It was meant to disparage clueless
reviewers. They should first make sure the machine is properly
aligned and then start to pass judgement on its quality, accuracy, and
performance. Unfortunately, you don't see this too often because it
requires the reviewer to possess some knowledge and expertise.

Frank's company's goal was to product high quality tools and maintain
their reputation. By lumping Frank's company in the same category as
the Harbor Freight class of tools, you essentially told him his
company, and therefore Frank, was incompetent.

Woah there just a minute Max. I never lumped any companies in with
any other companies. I made no comparisons between brands or makes of
any machines. I never said anything about the competence of Frank,
his company, or anybody making any machinery. This is some major leap
that your are making here that just doesn't jive with reality.

No wonder he got insulted.

Actually, I have his "explanation" for why he got "insulted". We've
exchanged some email (not that it accomplished anything). I'll do my
best to try and explain it in an even handed manner.

Frank feels that I'm a charlatan, a phony. He even went so far as to
call me a liar. In his opinion, I give "erroneous information about
all manufacturers". According to his email, he finds me "misleading
and despicable" and this is why he thinks my statement was
"insulting". Every time he responds to my messages with what he
considers factual information, it gives me "another opportunity to
drop another thousand words of erroneous information, followed by [my]
spam link." He says that I prey on the "uninformed".

Frank honestly believes that the factory alignment survives the
shipping process 100% of the time. Everyone who buys a new saw should
expect it to be accurately aligned right out of the box. Shipping
can't cause it to go out of whack - even on machines that are returned
with freight damage. And, according to Frank's email, neither can
usage. He's got a box full of "marketing research data" that proves
this to be true. He has never and will never check the alignment on
his table saw because he firmly believes that there is no need. To
say anything different is to disparage a manufacturer's reputation for
quality.

I'm not sure where that puts Dan and the misalignment that I helped
him to correct. Or the thousands of other customers of mine who
proclaim how much better their saw works since they have been able to
align it properly. Where does that put all the other manufacturers of
alignment tools? How about all those authors of books and magazine
articles which talk about table saw alignment. These people must all
be charlatans and phonies too. Hmmmm.....at least I'm in good
company!

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:17:38 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:


We've
exchanged some email (not that it accomplished anything).

We have exchanged emails. I responded offline because I felt that
anything I had to say in response to thread posts on the matter would
not do Ed's business any good, and might cause harm. It was a
collossal mistake to do so. A normal person would assume that an
offline communication was not for publication. Ed has chosen to
take excerpts of my emails and provide his own context. I find that
repulsive.

A couple of paragraphs from those emails for clarification:

From my the original email:

"On the thread I offered only anecdotal information and my personal
opinion as an individual woodworker, just a member of the "corner
tavern" that is the "wreck". I purposely did not bring up any of the
information mentioned above.that would be information derived as head
operations individual for Delta I have no interest in possibly
having a negative impact, however small it might be, on your business
by going into that. While not personally experienced with your
product, it is my understanding that it is well respected in the
industry".



From an email sent just before reading this most recent post:

"While I appreciate any attempt to add to my education, you may be
somewhat presumptuous in that regard. And my position is clear.
Nothing I have in my data base would be helpful in increasing the
demand for your product. But as stated before, I have no intention of
posting any information that would cause harm either. My choice to
not respond on the NG is in your best interest......balance deleted,
might cause harm


Back to the present, so there it is, I've learned my lesson. I will
not respond in any thread that has a post by Ed Bennett nor will we
continue to be pen pals offline.

Frank

"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
...


Not particularly true......as a consumer if a product has a particular
design flaw or simply suffers from inept shipping it is of note. Even
significant if down the road one must move the saw to another location one
might need to know shipping precautions.


Well, you simply pack the tool the same way it was shipped. If it shipped
successfully 1 time it should ship sucessfully another time providing you
use a good shipper.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:


We have exchanged emails. I responded offline because I felt that
anything I had to say in response to thread posts on the matter would
not do Ed's business any good, and might cause harm. It was a
collossal mistake to do so. A normal person would assume that an
offline communication was not for publication. Ed has chosen to
take excerpts of my emails and provide his own context. I find that
repulsive.

You're beginning to see why he has been in my bit bucket for some time.

Lew

in an ideal world all shipping variables can be taken into account. in
the real world, shipments get tossed around by storms at sea, pallets
get left out in the rain and boxes get dropped. the higher degree of
precision the factory setup the more susceptible it is to change- any
change, even temperature swings. now, generally woodworking equipment
isn't the most precise stuff around, and I'm sure the manufacturers do
cost- benefit analyses of precision factory setup among other things
and find a happy medium. then we as users tweak the machines to our
individual requirements, even using aftermarket parts and devices. no
prob (TM Joat) everybody gets what they need and a thriving economy
exists based on table saw alignment devices.

very few precision machines arrive from the manufacturer plug and play
at their optimum performance, and the ones that *must* do so come with
a tech from the factory to do the setup.

On Oct 20, 7:36 am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
snip

Well, what can I do?

I still stand by my original statement as it was intended. Any
reviewer who judges the quality of a machine (like a table saw) based
on its factory ("out of the box") alignment (like fence and blade
alignment) is demonstrating his ignorance and doing a great disservice
to his readers and the company that produced that machine. I say this
because I believe that it's rare for machinery to retain its original
factory alignment during the shipping process. I do not believe that
it's valid to judge the quality of workmanship for a machine until it
is properly assembled and accurately aligned.

It's Frank's choice to misinterpret this statement as "insulting and
misleading". He has decided to believe that it was meant as a
"misleading and despicable" "lie" designed to "take in the mostly
uninformed". He insists that it is a derogatory statement aimed at
machinery manufacturers (his, in particular). And, he continues to do
this after having been corrected multiple times both publicly and
privately. His eagerness to take offense where none was intended (or
even remotely inferred) and refusal to acknowledge correction leads me
to believe that his professed concern for my business is very
disingenuous.

In my defense, and to characterize just how ludicrous Frank's
misinterpretation is, I would ask people to recall the number of times
I've suggested the use a dial indicator on a stick rather than
purchase one of my products if only blade and fence alignment is
needed. I have even acknowledged the validity of traditional "feel
the rub" alignment techniques (with the caveat that I find them to be
tedious and time consuming). My products are designed to do much more
than that and are a big overkill (i.e. waste of money) for such a
limited application. If you're not going to tilt your blade, cut
miters, change jointer knives, setup a miter saw, drill press, shaper,
band saw, etc. then don't get a TS-Aligner. Not only have I said this
many times in the newsgroup, but it's on my web site too.

I have never intentionally misled anybody in the newsgroup or shared
information that I did not believe to be true and accurate. There
have been occasions where I have been mistaken. But, when corrected I
have always acknowledged the truth and offered sincere public
apologies when appropriate. I know for a fact that I have
successfully helped many people in the group without selling them
anything. I have done my best to adhere to the Usenet guidelines for
commercial activity in newsgroups (which specifically mentions the use
of a web site link in the signature).

There are individuals in the group who feel compelled to denigrate
those who want to develop their machinery skills and make the most of
their investment. They are quick to follow up messages with their
derogatory comments and imagined insults characterizing me and anybody
who would listen to me as something less than a real woodworker (e.g.:
"wood machinist", etc.). When that doesn't work, then they start
trying to embarrass me directly with references to the "Bennett wars"
and other such nonsense. When all else fails they often flaunt their
ignorance as a virtue. Somehow, they can never bring themselves to
see things from a different perspective and allow people to pursue
their own interests in peace. And, they can never admit when they've
gone too far. Well, there's only so much stupidity I can take. The
morons win. "Just make sawdust!"

One last thing: On the topic of "market research studies"...we've all
heard about the market research that led Detroit auto makers to ignore
foreign competition and keep making big ugly cars in the '70s. And,
we've all heard how market research studies said that "New Coke" would
be a big hit. Well, when I get together with my old friends from a
previous job, we laugh over multitudes of similar stories that have
never seen the light of day. I think I can share one that will make a
point:

It seems that the Marketing folks did a study that led them to believe
that a particular product would sell like hotcakes if there was a
version with black "skins" (that's what they call the outside plastic
covers). So, they asked me to run the numbers and report the impact
to warranty cost as a percentage of revenue. Well, the new parts
would need to be stocked in every distribution center, every repair
center, and every dealer repair depot worldwide - a huge inventory.
And, all the service manuals would need to be updated to reflect the
new part numbers. Technicians, warehouse personnel, and call center
agents would all need to be trained. Allowances would need to be made
for the exchange of parts when the wrong color was ordered. And,
there would be the increase in call center traffic from people who
don't get all the updates and need help getting the right parts.

The increase in warranty cost was big enough to shut down the whole
idea. In response, a new market research study concluded that the
black skins would be so popular that people would be willing to pay
extra for the product - so much extra that the increased warranty
costs were completely offset. So, with management's blessing the
project went ahead.

Separate tooling was made (it's tough to flush out a mold after
running black resin), repair part inventories were stocked, personnel
were trained, manuals were updated, notices went out, etc. The new
black skin version was finally introduced and nothing happened. For a
product that was projected to sell about 75 million units, the black
skin version ended up selling between 30-40 thousand units. There
were more spares in the worldwide repair parts inventory than units in
customer hands.

Next thing I know, I'm sitting in yet another Marketing presentation
where the project is being lauded as a big success. Awards were being
given out and people were saying that they should do it again. The
moral of this story is: there is no task that cannot be justified, or
idea that cannot be proven with a Market Research Study. It's the
best evidence that money can buy!

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Oct 15, 10:10 am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"RayV" wrote in message

Is 0.001" alignment close enough?
Is 0.003" blade runout too much?
Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be
taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg?
(as seen here, but not my site)
http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg

When I get home I'm going to make some popcorn and ice my favorite adult
beverage to sustain me while the results come in on this one.

You're right Ed, very interesting (entertaining?) thread this has
turned out to be...

On Oct 22, 9:47 am, RayV wrote:
On Oct 15, 10:10 am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"RayV" wrote in message

Is 0.001" alignment close enough?
Is 0.003" blade runout too much?
Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be
taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg?
(as seen here, but not my site)
http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg

When I get home I'm going to make some popcorn and ice my favorite adult
beverage to sustain me while the results come in on this one.

You're right Ed, very interesting (entertaining?) thread this has
turned out to be...

Yep, Ed's been around long enough to see this happen dozens of times.
From what you said in response, it would appear that my comments
helped you. That's all I wanted to do - lend some of my expertise to
help you out. I didn't try to sell you anything. I didn't say
anything that I didn't believe to be absolutely true. I didn't say
anything with the intent to insult anybody. But, this happens in
virtually every single thread that I offer technical advice in. And,
it's usually instigated by the same group of people (at one point or
another, most of them chimed in on this thread).

I hope you find your dial indicator useful and a lot easier than a
bevel blade attached to the miter bar ;-). Don't let the ignorant
hecklers discourage you from using your brain. Thinking people can be
real woodworkers - they just have to endure a lot of taunting and
heckling.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner