I thought it was 50.... Gee s are you bored... Ha...

No, I am not making a crusade at all.... I blows me away to think that my
very own thoughts on the subject are so threatening to every one. Am I
really presenting that good of an argument in my beliefs that most every one
is so damn scared that it will happen? I really do not have any monetary
interest in the Saw Stop. Dont kill the messenger.....

Unfortunately I have to stay away from the TS, I tried to tilt the blade
without taking out the zero clearance insert and well, that blade is on its
way to Forrest and an new one is on its way to its new home. Tick Tock....
Every one does have their opinion and right to voice it.. Its that freedom
of speech thing.... Cracks me up the with all the name calling....



"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
...
I just quickly counted how many posts to this thread you have already
made--over 44! You are making this a full time crusade, I take it?? g
Go
have a beer and stay away from sharp tools for a while. Everyone has their
opinion on this SawStop thing.

dave

Leon wrote:

snip

In article , "Leon" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article m, "Leon"
wrote:
Give up my freedom... No. That is a very broad term. I am only talking
about adding 1 more to the thousands of already government mandated
requirements.

So because the government has already overstepped its Constitutional
authority
a thousand times, it's OK for it to do so again? I think not.

Doug, I of course realise as well as you do that this is not the first
instance and certainly not the last. But I have come to terms with this and
realize there are far greater powers than me that rule and govern. I simply
try to get along as best I can and life has acceptably fair to me and my
family.


So if I may put it in a nutshell... because everything is going smoothly for
you personally, erosion of everyone's personal freedom doesn't worry you in
the least.

You are contemptible.




This certainly is not the first of or the last of these type proposals.
I
just happen to go along with it. You on the other hand choose not to go
along with it. That is OK with me.

Trouble is, you're advocating that government *remove* that freedom of
choice
from me.

I dont defend the actions of the government if they get involved in this
situation nor do I defend the the SawStop ethics, But they are doing this
legally and they have every right to. I simply advocate my right to my
voice my views.

Contradicting yourself again, I see.

This thread begain with Gary Milliorn's post describing $aw$top's action. Your
first post in the thread was an immediate, one-word followup: "Cool."







Yes. I would voluntarily give up my freedom to choose a TS with or with
out this feature.

Then go buy one. But don't demand that the rest of us give up our freedom
to
make the same choice.

I make no demands of anyone any more. Why do you think that I have the
power to control your freedom of choice. I am only 1 of millions.

You continue to argue that this device should be made mandatory, a position
equivalent to demanding that others give up their freedom to choose whether to
buy it or not.



That's it in a nut shell. If I have to sacrifice having a choice for
what I
would consider a better out come, I have no problem with that. I guess
this
is the beauty of living in the US. You have the freedom to voice your
preferences most of the time.


You don't have to sacrifice having a choice. Go buy one. Now. Then shut
up,
and let the rest of us decide _for_ourselves_ whether we want one too.

LOL....Now you are making decisions for me. If you truely feel this
strongly about this, start a petition against the SawStop and its tactics.
Don't just send in a form letter petition with your single name on it. Mail
it out to every one you know and get as many copies ans signatures as you
can and send them to the governmant. This is your right and I back you up
on your rights. Don't complain to me.

No, I'm not trying to make your decisions for you -- just pointing out the
logical consequences of your position, which you apparently haven't taken the
time to think through very carefully.


Now, changing the subject a bit and to give you an example of some thing
you
may or may not be aware of. My professional career was in the Automotive
industry. I was in upper management and successfully retired at age 40.
If
you recall back in the 80's the Freon used in automotive air conditioning
systems was called R-12. There was a big deal about this freon damaging
the
environment so a new type refrigerent was Mandated by the government so
that
the R-12 would be phased out. That is what the manufacturers wanted you
to
know.
Actually the patent for R-12 ran out for the manufacturer and every one
was
able to make it and sell it. The manufacturer lobbied and convinced that
govermant that the R-12 was damaging the environment and should be phased
out and replaced with a more friendly refrigerant which they already had
a
new patent on. Then the new refrigerant was introduced under a new
patent
and that company is all warm and fuzzy again. One problem with this is
that
while the new refrigerant is more friendly to the environmant, it is more
dangerous to be around if you are a human being. If you will notice,
with
the new refrigerent, mechanics are required if possible to recapture the
freon gas if he has to open up the AC system. This is mostly for his
long
term health. If the new Freon gas is so much friendlier, why not let it
excape into the atmosphere like the old freon gas was allowed to do.

Now this is a great example of a manufacturer making up a reason to
require
the government to become involved. No one really benefits from this
mandate
expept the manufacturer.




Yeah, it would be a great example if it were true, but it's not. This
account
is absolute nonsense.

Humm I read several doccuments and articles in the mid 80's backing up my

Mid-80s is a decade late. Concerns were raised about the effects of CFCs on
the ozone layer as early as 1974.

comments from the Automotive Business News priodicals that out business

There's a reliable source of scientific information, I'm sure...

suscribed to... Kinda backed up why the thousands of bottles of R-12 we
were wholesaling was not being manufactured in the US any more.

Unfortunately this all happened before anyone realized it..and it was too
late.

Not true at all. The ecologists and chemists knew what was going on. It took
ten or fifteen years before any of the politicians would listen to them.

The initiative to ban chlorofluorocarbons started with ecologists and
organic chemists, not with refrigerant manufacturers.

That is absolutely correct but it gave the original patent holder a reason
to change formulas and get a new patent.

And
that's what it was at the beginnig, too -- an attempt to ban *all* CFCs,
not
just one or two specific refrigerants, because they *do* destroy the ozone
layer. Recapture of the new refrigerants is required by law for protection
of
the atmosphere, not mechanics.

Seems odd that our Oldsmobile dealership never had to recapture the R-12,
only the new refrigerant.

That's because the law didn't require recovery of *any* refrigerant at the
time that R-12 was in use. AFAIK, there _never_was_ a time during which the
law required recovery of the new refrigerants but allowed release of R-12. The
law which requires refrigerant recovery does not distinguish between types.


You can believe what you want but the new refrigerent introduced in the mid
to late 80's was harmful to humans.

So's Freon.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

"Charlie Spitzer" wrote in message
...

that top speed is limited to: what the driver can do with installed tires
on
some specific track, aerodynamic forces relating to the frontal area and
drag of the body, size of the engine installed, size of cojones of the
driver, or other factors. it almost isn't ever a speed limiter on the
engine.

That too. But Mercedes and BMW and my 97 Chev PU have governed top
speeds. This is done through RPM restrictions in top gear in particular.
My 97 and my friends 96 ChevPU would only go strongly to about 95 mph and
then stall out until the vehicle speed reached about 90. Change out the
PROM and that limit can be defeated.

"JackD" wrote in message ...

Well Chris if you loose the choice to buy a new saw with the
modifications
or not, you will still have the choice to voice you openion.

Why the false choice? Can't the item be purchased with or without the
government mandating it?

I hope so... I would rather have the choise but I'll take it either way.

If the petition is rejected it doesn't mean that the device will be
outlawed. You can still buy it.

Hopefully the company will survive.

Granted it is at a high price. Their saw with it included is around $2300
for a saw which appears equivalent to an $800 grizzly.

Or a $2200. Powermatic....



-Jack

Leon wrote:
"Charlie Spitzer" wrote in message


and how are you going to find, then hit, that moving hole? also, won't you
have to wait for at least 50% blade to rotate past (on average)?


If I am going to have to splain and figure all this out I might as well
petition the government to go with my ideas...;~)
Imagine... a hole every 5 or 10 degrees along the perameter of the
blade.. This just popped into my head...
Oh and the pin should be pointed so that it will go right in ...

How about the table tip simply jumps up 4 inches with hydraulics. The blade
has not moved or stopped but the table simply raised instantly above the
blades cutting capacity.



Imagine if some one spent a year thinking about a better saw stop...



If the table jumped that high, fast enough to make a difference, you'd
have two to five hundred pounds of cast iron flying up and hitting you
in the face, which would be just about as bad as shaking hands with
the blade.

Not a great idea.

CJ

"Charlie Spitzer" wrote in message

and how are you going to find, then hit, that moving hole? also, won't you
have to wait for at least 50% blade to rotate past (on average)?

If I am going to have to splain and figure all this out I might as well
petition the government to go with my ideas...;~)
Imagine... a hole every 5 or 10 degrees along the perameter of the
blade.. This just popped into my head...
Oh and the pin should be pointed so that it will go right in ...

How about the table tip simply jumps up 4 inches with hydraulics. The blade
has not moved or stopped but the table simply raised instantly above the
blades cutting capacity.



Imagine if some one spent a year thinking about a better saw stop...

"
Well Leon, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. If you think
that
free peoples in a free society making their own decisions in a free market
is somehow "arrogant" (at least that's what I can gather from the parts of
your post that aren't self-contradictory), that's fine. You don't really
_have_ to make any decisions, just please don't be so cavalier about
giving
away other people's ability to do so.



Geees Jim,, I have NOOOOOOO control over any of this...Just my opinion.....I
can give away nothing of yours and visa versa.... I really had no idea that
I was so threatening

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:19:47 +0000, Leon wrote:

Probably works similar to the sensor on my neighbors
Excursion that beeps when you back up too close to an object.

I bought that _option_ for SWMBO's Windstar.

-Doug

In article m,
says...
Thats your decision Chris.

It makes no sense to me but you are you and only you can satisfy your wants
and needs.



If Saw Stop gets their way, it will be the CPSC and Saw Stop dictating
what contstitute his wants and needs.

Leon wrote:
"I really hate spam." wrote in message
...

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:47:56 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Leon, you don't seem to see a very important distinction between these
things and Sawstop. All of these government mandates, along with
required auto liability insurance, act to prevent other people from
hurting me. Water quality mandates prevent my city from mishandling
water and making me sick, electrical codes prevent the electrician
from doing substandard work in my home and burning down my house, and
liability insurance prevents everybody from legally driving without
making sure that they have some way to compensate me if they hurt me
while driving improperly. Sawstop is not at all similar...it is a
device meant to save me only from me.


Try to think not only of your self in this instance and think of a fellow
wood worker that works for a living in a company owned small shop using a
TS.... Long hours of working with the saw.... the Saw Stop prevents an
injury. I assure you he will be happy that the government mandated this
feature because It was not his saw or his equipment. I assure you the
company is also happy that they have this type of saw in their shop after
the first incident.




That's fine. He can damned well buy the device if he wants to.

But if he has no choice, then it's the government going Nanny State
that's causing that.

I can tell you what sort of governments require people to do certain
mandatory things that free people would balk at, and they're socialist
governments.

I don't want to see us go there.


As for thinking of ourselves, we all do, all the time. Everybody
else is of secondary importance to each of us, with the possible
exceptions of our own closest family members.

I won't sacrifice any freedoms for security.

CJ

In article ,
says...
"I really hate spam." wrote in message
...


You're not in the market for a saw right now. But, you want saw stop
badly enough that you want anybody who wishes to buy a brand new
tablesaw to be forced to include it at a significant price, just to be
sure that it is available when you do want it. The real question,
then, is why you don't put yourself in the market for a new saw now,
while it is guaranteed to be available?

Good gosh, get a grip here. My openions are not going to steer the
governmant one way or the other.

No, but this kind of opinion, expressded in conjunction with many
others (probably not a majority, but a large enough group to be loud) is
responsible for the implementation of a significant number of laws and
regulations that continue to erode our liberties by mandating, at the
point of a gun, some "desired" behavior on the part of US citizens.


Damn ,can't I put in a wish list like any
one else.

The problem is that too @#$#% many people *are* putting together wish
lists and getting the statists in our government to mandate the contents
of those lists.

Just because I don't mind the government getting involved in this
instance and don't care what tactics were used to bring the product to
market does not mean that you or my openion is not a valid one.


Ben Franklin's application was slightly different, but his words are
applicable: "Those who would give up a little liberty for security,
deserver neither liberty nor security"

IIRC it's on the device, i.e. stop sign, measures the rate of approach, and
signals the car if it detects it's not going slow enough to stop. Must be
something along the same lines, sonar/radar.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
IIRC the Toyota Avalon and or one of the Lexus vehicles currently have an
option for automatic breaking if you come too close to the car in front of
you on the freeway. Probably works similar to the sensor on my neighbors
Excursion that beeps when you back up too close to an object.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:tImPa.7542
Bad examples.

Water quality is clearly a public health issue (e.g.
http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/pubs/snow/snow.html). AFAIK, table saw injuries
are
not contagious, and thus do not pose the sort of threat to public health
that
justifies government intervention.

Oh so you are going to decide for all of us what is to be considered a
threat to public safety and what is not...
Public high school shop class TS....they dont need it... hell they are just
learning and they are our kids that do not provide much income. Small shop
employees that buy none of the eauipment but get hurt way too often...


The National Electrical Code was developed by the National Fire Protection
Association (www.nfpa.org), a nonprofit group founded by insurance
industry
representatives. It has *no* connection to any governmental agencies
except in
an advisory capacity.

Well I don't know where you live but the city building inspectors do inspect
for correct wiring that conforms to code. That does not happen where you
live?


confounds me, is that while they seem to think their freedom will be lost
if
the SawStop company get its way and those same people seem to think that
I
don't have the freedom to voice my openion on the matter.

Obviously the freedom to choose a table saw that is not equipped with
$aw$top
*will* be lost if the company gets its way. DUH.

With the exception of what saw you buy, I doube you will notice any loss of
freedom... Loss of freedom is a broad and sweeping term. You will of
course loose the choice to buy a new saw with out this feature if the
petition goes through.




And nobody here has said that you don't (or shouldn't) have the freedom to
voice your opinion on the matter. We're telling you you're wrong, and we
think
you should shut up. I would never dream of asking the government to
*force*
you to.


Lets see Doug were you the one or the other Doug that likes to use the term
Hypocrite. In the same paragraph...aw. just reread the above paragraph.

Apologies accepted and absolutely not necessary... This is all just
lively discussion and tempers get a bit out of whack now and then... It has
been a long long time since I have been the target.. Ha.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Why wait?


Why? because they are not shipping the saws? good enough reason? You keep
harping on the same "buy one now" but no matter how much you want one, they
are not on the market, they are not available, they are not in the stores.

I'd consider one on my nest saw also. Why next? I have no idea when, if
ever, I'll buy another saw and I don't know when they will ship so I cannot
plan on getting one just yet.

Until they start manufacturing and shipping, you should find a real
argument. You just sound silly asking the same question when the answer is
so obvious. THEY DON'T EXIST YET.
Ed

Doug,

I think this ****in contest has run its course and I cant see how far either
of us has ****ed as it is dark out side. My wife is ****ed because I have
spent the better half of my day in here and I'm getting tired..


If I have offended you in any way please accept my appoligies as we both
have been in this news group way too long and I would hate to have
alenanated myself or anyone.

We both have different views on this subject but when we are both back on
other topics I think we agree more than not. That is the way that I would
like for this to remain and I do value your thoughts and openions.

Thak you for a not so boreing afternoon uh er night... day/.

Leon

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Good gosh, get a grip here. My openions are not going to steer the
governmant one way or the other.

No, but this kind of opinion, expressded in conjunction with many
others (probably not a majority, but a large enough group to be loud) is
responsible for the implementation of a significant number of laws and
regulations that continue to erode our liberties by mandating, at the
point of a gun, some "desired" behavior on the part of US citizens.

Boy... so yours is the openion that should be observed and not mine...
Living in a free country entitles the citizens to voice their views... I
value yours and mine.


Damn ,can't I put in a wish list like any
one else.

The problem is that too @#$#% many people *are* putting together wish
lists and getting the statists in our government to mandate the contents
of those lists.

That is the American way .... I believe.. Perhaps if those people that are
sick and tired of those people that are getting things passes by the
government were to push back a little harder, things might be more to your
liking.

In article ,
Sam Chambers wrote:
"JackD" wrote in message ...
Did you read the "performance specification" that was submitted? It states
a
number of requirements which are clearly tailored to a specific
implementation - the very same implementation that is patented by those
submitting the petition.

Well of course it is, since their product is the only one on the market that
detects human flesh and stops a spinning blade. I did read the petition,

But did you also read the PATENT CLAIMS ?

I am not really sure any more Rob... ;~) I have been in here for so long
today that I think that I am answering my self... LOL
Good night and thanks for the lively conversation.....

Be careful..
Leon



"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
s.com...
Leon? Is that you? g!

Rob

While we are on a slightly different OT subject... ;~)

As I have to a couple of others, and at lease the other Doug, ;~)

I also wish to extend to you my apologies if I have offended you in any way
during this lively SawStop discussion. While we don't see eye to eye on
this subject, thank God that we live in a country where this is OK. You do
live in the USA don't you... ;~) Yeah,,, you do...

Any way we have both been on this news group way to long to let a simple
discussion create a cold atmosphere among ourselves.

It would probably be a good idea for some one to copy past this entire
thread to the government and to SawStop and let them see how the group views
this issue.. I think it would send a stronger message than other forms of
voicing ones views. I probably should not be the one to speak for those
against the issue.. ;~)

Any way.. good night and be careful

Leon

Think about it.

You'd need to move a cast iron table top four inches in maybe ONE
millisecond?

That's a foot every three milliseconds, or 333 and a third feet per
second! That works out to a little more than 227 miles per hour!

The table would disintegrate under the stresses and you'd need
a few hundred horsepower to drive the table that hard anyway!

CJ


Leon wrote:
"Chris Johnson"

If the table jumped that high, fast enough to make a difference, you'd
have two to five hundred pounds of cast iron flying up and hitting you
in the face, which would be just about as bad as shaking hands with
the blade.

Not a great idea.




No no no... Only the table top... 30 or 40 pounds... just high enough to
make the blade dissapear. But then again better the flat table hitting you
in the face than the blade.....



CJ

My spell checker has a mind if it own..... Some time I have to misspell a
word 6 or 7 times to get it to accept it... ;~)

Opinion...... I think I hit Accept all instead of correct all...

Good night... I think.



"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
s.com...
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:29:18 +0000, Leon wrote:


Boy... so yours is the openion that should be observed and not mine...
Living in a free country entitles the citizens to voice their views...
I
value yours and mine.

Jeez, Leon. At least update your spell checker for openion - opinion.
You've been using that on every post, so it's not a one time thing.

-Doug

"Chris Johnson" wrote in message
...
Think about it.

You'd need to move a cast iron table top four inches in maybe ONE
millisecond?

That's a foot every three milliseconds, or 333 and a third feet per
second! That works out to a little more than 227 miles per hour!

The table would disintegrate under the stresses and you'd need
a few hundred horsepower to drive the table that hard anyway!


Yeah so what is the problem here....I got 600 hp driving my saw..;~)

In article ,
says...
"Robert Bonomi" bonomi@c-ns. wrote in message
...
*EXCEPT* that anything that meets the 'petition' specifications is covered
by
_their_ PATENT.

Thus, _effectively_, giving them a *monopoly* of the market.

No, it doesn't. The proposed regulation would dictate what a saw safety
device would hve to do. It does not say HOW it must be done. If someone
else can come up with a different product that achieves the same performance
goals in a different way, they would meet the definitions in the regulation
and would not violate SawStop's patent.

Again, a monopoly is not created just because someone is first to the market
with a new product. If that were the case, there would never be another new
innovation!




If you were to look closely at the proposed Spec., you would see that it
would be fairly impossible to meat it without either violating the
patent, or licensing it. I've seen enough lockout spec's in my time to
spot this one a mile away.

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:29:18 +0000, Leon wrote:


Boy... so yours is the openion that should be observed and not mine...
Living in a free country entitles the citizens to voice their views... I
value yours and mine.

Jeez, Leon. At least update your spell checker for openion - opinion.
You've been using that on every post, so it's not a one time thing.

-Doug

I AM surprised that you have spent so much time debating this one issue. I'm
not trying to kill the messenger. I just don't agree that it is a wise idea for
the government to get involved in this type of legislation. Who was calling you
names? I'll kick their butts! g

Sorry to hear you tweaked your blade...

dave

Leon wrote:

I thought it was 50.... Gee s are you bored... Ha...

No, I am not making a crusade at all.... I blows me away to think that my
very own thoughts on the subject are so threatening to every one. Am I
really presenting that good of an argument in my beliefs that most every one
is so damn scared that it will happen? I really do not have any monetary
interest in the Saw Stop. Dont kill the messenger.....

Unfortunately I have to stay away from the TS, I tried to tilt the blade
without taking out the zero clearance insert and well, that blade is on its
way to Forrest and an new one is on its way to its new home. Tick Tock....
Every one does have their opinion and right to voice it.. Its that freedom
of speech thing.... Cracks me up the with all the name calling....

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
...
I just quickly counted how many posts to this thread you have already
made--over 44! You are making this a full time crusade, I take it?? g
Go
have a beer and stay away from sharp tools for a while. Everyone has their
opinion on this SawStop thing.

dave

Leon wrote:

snip

Alan Bierbaum writes:

Since this device is supposedly commercially available; Leon, when is yours
being delivered, and how much are you asking for your Jet?

It is NOT available. Pre-orders on the off chance it ever gets produced can be
had.

Charlie Self

If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to.
Dorothy Parker

Leon responds:

Except his very loudness in here makes it MORE difficult for that to
happen - cuz it'd look too much like what it is: a reward for carrying
their dirty water.

Leon needs to figure out where he can earn enough money to have his
lips surgically removed from SawStop's ASS.


ROTFLMAO....


Good. I dind't see the humor and plonked the guy. That **** is totally
unneeded.

Charlie Self

If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to.
Dorothy Parker

In article , "Leon" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:tImPa.7542
Bad examples.

Water quality is clearly a public health issue (e.g.
http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/pubs/snow/snow.html). AFAIK, table saw injuries
are
not contagious, and thus do not pose the sort of threat to public health
that
justifies government intervention.

Oh so you are going to decide for all of us what is to be considered a
threat to public safety and what is not...

No, I'll be perfectly content to leave that to the scientists. Go have a look
at the URL I provided (cited above). It's been well-known for a couple
centuries that contaminated water is a public health hazard; I didn't invent
that notion.

Are you contending that table saws are a threat to public safety?

Public high school shop class TS....they dont need it... hell they are just
learning and they are our kids that do not provide much income. Small shop
employees that buy none of the eauipment but get hurt way too often...

I never said those things.

My position is that it should be left to the choice of the purchaser, whether
to buy the $aw$top or not. Your position is that the government should require
it, regardless of whether the purchaser wants it.



The National Electrical Code was developed by the National Fire Protection
Association (www.nfpa.org), a nonprofit group founded by insurance
industry
representatives. It has *no* connection to any governmental agencies
except in
an advisory capacity.

Well I don't know where you live but the city building inspectors do inspect
for correct wiring that conforms to code. That does not happen where you
live?

You seem to have forgotten what you posted, so I'll remind you. You wrote:

"If [people] only knew how much of their lives revolves something governmant
mandated and are thankful that it was. Take quality of water supplied to you
by your city water department or Electrical codes to prevent elecctrical fires
for instance."

My point was that government mandates had *nothing* to do with the development
of electrical codes.



confounds me, is that while they seem to think their freedom will be lost
if
the SawStop company get its way and those same people seem to think that
I
don't have the freedom to voice my openion on the matter.

Obviously the freedom to choose a table saw that is not equipped with
$aw$top
*will* be lost if the company gets its way. DUH.

With the exception of what saw you buy, I doube you will notice any loss of
freedom... Loss of freedom is a broad and sweeping term. You will of
course loose the choice to buy a new saw with out this feature if the
petition goes through.

*Any* loss of my freedom bothers me.

And nobody here has said that you don't (or shouldn't) have the freedom to
voice your opinion on the matter. We're telling you you're wrong, and we
think
you should shut up. I would never dream of asking the government to
*force*
you to.


Lets see Doug were you the one or the other Doug that likes to use the term
Hypocrite. In the same paragraph...aw. just reread the above paragraph.

That was me. If you're accusing me of hypocricy in what I posted, I guess I'm
a little too dense to see it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

In article , "Leon" wrote:

"Chris Johnson" wrote in message
...

Well, it makes no sense to me why a free man would be willing to accept
a situation where he is not only FORCED to buy something added to a
tool, and the addition is NOT free, but doesn't even have a CHOICE
between competing models when it comes to the added device.

Why is it so hard to understand that you are not forced to buy anything.
Your may be forced to buy a TS with this new device only if you decide on
you own to buy a new TS. Today you are forced to buy a TS with a really
crappy guard and many years ago the same arguments were most like made about
that addition.

Why is it so hard to understand that anyone buying a new table saw *will* be
forced to buy the $aw$top?

I can decide to take it or leave it.. plain and simple.

Not if this petition is adopted by the CPSC, you can't. You won't have the
choice.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

In article . com, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Why wait?


Why? because they are not shipping the saws? good enough reason? You keep
harping on the same "buy one now" but no matter how much you want one, they
are not on the market, they are not available, they are not in the stores.

"SawStop Table Saws Now Available"
http://www.sawstop.com/ordering.htm


I'd consider one on my nest saw also. Why next? I have no idea when, if
ever, I'll buy another saw and I don't know when they will ship so I cannot
plan on getting one just yet.

I would have considered one for my next saw too, had it not been for $aw$top's
latest ploy. Leon keeps harping on the importance of safety, saying that we
need a government mandate to protect everyone -- but he's not concerned enough
about his own safety to buy one.


Until they start manufacturing and shipping, you should find a real
argument. You just sound silly asking the same question when the answer is
so obvious. THEY DON'T EXIST YET.

YES THEY DO.

Ed



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

Like always Charlie, you are a stand up guy..

Mike,

I answered so many posts for such a long time yesterday that I will have to
take your work on what you say I said and or what you think you said...
LOL...
This is what makes our country great. We can all show our views and that is
OK. If the views were always one sided or no one ever stepped up to voice
another opinion, this would be a boring place.
I appreciate you concern about the government getting more involved in our
lives. I can also appreciate or accept that some times we have to give up a
little to get something else that may want. Life often throws us a curve
and we have to compromise to maintain the course. This issue is one that I
am willing to compromise on. I don't expect you or any one else to change
their minds unless you do so willfully.

Bad news on the blade, you should see the fence on my Dewalt 12"scms. I
bought it used and whoever
used it forgot to slide out the extensions a few times and put some nice
cuts in them when they ran
some compound cuts. Good thing they are aluminum.



At least you can have the satisfaction of knowing that it was not you that
did the deed.. ;~)

In article , "Leon" wrote:
[snip]
I appreciate you concern about the government getting more involved in our
lives. I can also appreciate or accept that some times we have to give up a
little to get something else that may want. Life often throws us a curve
and we have to compromise to maintain the course. This issue is one that I
am willing to compromise on. I don't expect you or any one else to change
their minds unless you do so willfully.

Leon, it's fine with me if you're willing to compromise on that. The problem
is that $aw$top wants to use the power of the Federal government to force
every table saw buyer to make the same compromise, whether they are willing to
do so or not -- and that's contrary to the principles of freedom.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

I got to thinking about why this sticks in my craw so much when
mandated air bags don't. Several thoughts.

First of all, this thing is apparently not something that one can add
aftermarket to an existing saw - that's not what they invented
(right?). Instead, they have something that would entail a
manufacturer changing their product to accomodate their invention. Or
buy SS's own saw. This is probably a major reason that it's not a big
hit. So, they're trying to ram it down our throats rather than, say,
modifying the design to be installable aftermarket.

I can see certain places encountering a liablity if a product such as
the saw stop was available and not purchased - like high school shops.


Now, the comparison with air bags is kinda fuzzy. For one thing,
could it be air bags were not immediately a hit because of their cost,
particularly in proportion to the overall vehicle cost? Personally,
I'm kinda glad that they're installed and don't have such a negative
reaction on the mandate for such. Because, as safe as I may drive,
someday I may come across the idiot in the other vehicle who smacks my
car and this will be completely beyond my control. But also, I don't
think there's only one manufacturer of air bags.

There's just something wrong with the sole entity who stands to gain
financial benefit trying to secure mandated regulation so that folks
are forced to buy their product.

Renata

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:45:58 GMT, "Gary Milliorn"
wrote:

Well, they said they were going to force it down the consumer's throats.
Here's
the filing with the Federal Register, as of today, Jul 9:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...3/03-17327.htm

The CPSC filing is "CP03-2", and here are their filings:

http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOI...f/Tablesaw.pdf
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOI...ladesawpt1.pdf
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOI...ladesawpt2.pdf

As far as I can interpret the Federal Register filing, there is a 60-day
window of opportunity
for commenting on the proposed mandatory inclusion of SawStops proprietary
technology in all US-sold tablesaws.

Regards,
Gary

In article , Scott Cramer wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003, Doug Miller spake unto rec.woodworking:

Leon, it's fine with me if you're willing to compromise on that. The
problem is that $aw$top wants to use the power of the Federal
government to force every table saw buyer to make the same compromise,
whether they are willing to do so or not -- and that's contrary to the
principles of freedom.

And then appended his mantra:

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

Now Doug. I think you need to apologize to Leon for calling him a
hypocrite, or at least admit to being one yourself.

Scott

How do you figure that? I'm not aware of any principle of freedom that allows
taking innocent life, simply because it's inconvenient.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

On 11 Jul 2003, Doug Miller spake unto rec.woodworking:

Leon, it's fine with me if you're willing to compromise on that. The
problem is that $aw$top wants to use the power of the Federal
government to force every table saw buyer to make the same
compromise, whether they are willing to do so or not -- and that's
contrary to the principles of freedom.

And then appended his mantra:

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

Now Doug. I think you need to apologize to Leon for calling him a
hypocrite, or at least admit to being one yourself.

How do you figure that? I'm not aware of any principle of freedom that
allows taking innocent life, simply because it's inconvenient.

The Supreme Court disagrees - women have been free to have abortions
for 30 years now, whether you like it or not. Your hypocrisy is in
supporting only those freedoms that you agree with.

In article , Scott Cramer wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003, Doug Miller spake unto rec.woodworking:

Leon, it's fine with me if you're willing to compromise on that. The
problem is that $aw$top wants to use the power of the Federal
government to force every table saw buyer to make the same
compromise, whether they are willing to do so or not -- and that's
contrary to the principles of freedom.

And then appended his mantra:

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

Now Doug. I think you need to apologize to Leon for calling him a
hypocrite, or at least admit to being one yourself.

How do you figure that? I'm not aware of any principle of freedom that
allows taking innocent life, simply because it's inconvenient.

The Supreme Court disagrees - women have been free to have abortions
for 30 years now, whether you like it or not. Your hypocrisy is in
supporting only those freedoms that you agree with.

I don't view it that way. Rather, I see it as a hierarchy of rights, and if
the right to life itself is denied, all other rights are pretty much
meaningless.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW

You obviously are not concerned *enough* about your own safety to go out
and
buy one. But you think that the rest of us should be forced to do
something
that _you're_not_willing_to_do_yourself_.

That is yor assumption.. You read a lot into what you read that does not
exist.

I will buy one with my next saw purchase.

What, your safety is not important enough to buy one of them
"Powermatic" style saws with the SawStop now? You told me a few months
ago that the saw is available - even pointed me to a web site.

I guess the old adage applies - if it looks like a hypocite, smells like
a hypocrite, and walks like a hypocrite, it must be a hypocrite.


It's a free country, all right, but you don't really believe that. If you
did,
you wouldn't be eager to have the government *force* people to buy
products
that they do not want.

Sure I do and Capitolism is alive and well. And SawStop is apparently doing
every thing with in their rights and the law. If you are so opposed to the
setup and method of delivery stop the name calling and do something about
it. Fight the petition and quit whining.

Don't worry Leon. Sounds like there are plenty of us willing to fight
this.

Rick