Before you read this, please understand I am not asking if it's OK to be
unsafe and have a kickback incident, I just want to know what really
happens to us all.

A post about a year ago from me describes a kickback incident I had that
hurt pretty bad. The board didnt break the skin, but blood finally made
it to the surface of my gut the next day. I never want to have that
happen again, but a recent post titled 'Table saw wood splitter/anti
kick back question' made me wonder what people are actually referring
too when they say stuff like "it'll eventually get you".

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Mine was a 'put a bandaid on it' (plus a new pair of undies) incident.
A year later and I'm still ultra careful and hate to think what would
have happend had my gut been my head in that instance.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike W. wrote:
Before you read this, please understand I am not asking if it's OK to be
unsafe and have a kickback incident, I just want to know what really
happens to us all.

A post about a year ago from me describes a kickback incident I had that
hurt pretty bad. The board didnt break the skin, but blood finally made
it to the surface of my gut the next day. I never want to have that
happen again, but a recent post titled 'Table saw wood splitter/anti
kick back question' made me wonder what people are actually referring
too when they say stuff like "it'll eventually get you".

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Mine was a 'put a bandaid on it' (plus a new pair of undies) incident. A
year later and I'm still ultra careful and hate to think what would have
happend had my gut been my head in that instance.

Thanks,

Mike
The worst I remember (thank God not first-hand) was about 40-45 years
ago. I was just a kid. A friend of my father owned a lumber yard and
his kid (the lumber yard owner), a teenager, helped out his dad on the
weekends. There was a kickback on the RAS and it killed the kid. I
really don't remember much more than that.

Glen

In article , Mike W.
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.

I've never been hit, because I never stand in the kickback path.

djb

--
"I don't like dealing with people. I'd rather be back working in Human
Resources."

My wife, Oct 27 2005 after having to fill in at another department.

This one wasn't something that happened to me, but a fellow I met at a
yard sale in Anaheim about 25 years ago. He had lost an eye to a
kickback incident with a Craftman table saw, and was suing Sears over
it. The story, as he told it, was that he had removed the blade guard
AND was using the saw without safety glasses. My opinion? He had some
nerve suing Sears when he had clearly used the saw in an unsafe manner.

Mike W. wrote:


How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article , Mike W.
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.

I've never been hit, because I never stand in the kickback path.

djb

--
"I don't like dealing with people. I'd rather be back working in Human
Resources."

My wife, Oct 27 2005 after having to fill in at another department.

So this piece traveled a total distance of 37 feet? It traveled 12' in one
direction, hit a door, turned 180 degrees and traveled 25 more feet??? Was
the second leg of its trip mostly sliding on the ground? How powerful was
the saw and did the piece fly off at face level?

Mike W. wrote:
Before you read this, please understand I am not asking if it's OK to be
unsafe and have a kickback incident, I just want to know what really
happens to us all.

A post about a year ago from me describes a kickback incident I had that
hurt pretty bad. The board didnt break the skin, but blood finally made
it to the surface of my gut the next day. I never want to have that
happen again, but a recent post titled 'Table saw wood splitter/anti
kick back question' made me wonder what people are actually referring
too when they say stuff like "it'll eventually get you".

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Mine was a 'put a bandaid on it' (plus a new pair of undies) incident. A
year later and I'm still ultra careful and hate to think what would have
happend had my gut been my head in that instance.

Thanks,

Mike

In my 35 years of using table saws, I have had a couple of
kickbacks that hurt. Once I was cutting some wood that was
warping as it was going through the blade and kicked back
driving a splinter through the skin between my thumb and
forefinger. The splinter was about 3/8" diameter where it met
my skin. That hurt. Another time I had completed a cut but
hadn't pushed the pieces past the saw blade and was moving the
cutoff (widest piece) off of the table and came into contact
with the piece between the blade and fence. It bound up and
kicked back into my hip. That hurt quite a bit also and left
a bruise that stayed for about a week.

We set up a piece of plywood in front of a table saw once and
drew a target on it. We would leave the fence slightly loose,
run a piece of 1x4 through the saw (to make a 3/4 x 3/4
piece), then push the fence into the piece and send it flying
back (intentional kickback). You can put a 6 foot piece of
3/4 x 3/4 pine about 3 feet through a 3/4 inch thick piece of
plywood from 15 feet away that way. Really makes you respect
the power. Love those Powermatics!

In those 35 years, I have never used a table saw with a blade
guard, splitter or anti kickback pawls. But this is what I do
for a living, so I guess I am just used to saws that way.
Haven't had any other harmful kickbacks. A few kickbacks, but
none that have hurt me. I always stand out of the way.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Robert Allison said:

We set up a piece of plywood in front of a table saw once and
drew a target on it. We would leave the fence slightly loose,
run a piece of 1x4 through the saw (to make a 3/4 x 3/4
piece), then push the fence into the piece and send it flying
back (intentional kickback). You can put a 6 foot piece of
3/4 x 3/4 pine about 3 feet through a 3/4 inch thick piece of
plywood from 15 feet away that way. Really makes you respect
the power. Love those Powermatics!

And that is a sobering realization that most do not comprehend until
it is too late.

I've seen chunks of wood hanging from a hole in a concrete block.
Not in my shop, fortunately...

But it's the little things that will get you.
Ripping 10' x 10" x 2" lumber, never had a problem. You KNOW this is
a tough job and to keep your wits about you. It's that little piece
of hardboard your going to shave a 1/4" inch from the edge of that'll
get you in the end... DAMHIKT


Greg G.

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article , Mike W.
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.

I've never been hit, because I never stand in the kickback path.


Hummm.. The kick back path is anywhere behind the saw. I suspect you have
never been hit because you have been lucky also. I have had a kick back go
out over the fence and to the right side of the saw.

When I was a junior in high school, a senior got a nice kickback that
sent a 4 foot long piece of 3x3 stock into his chest like a javelin.
Bruised his sternum and knocked him about 4 feet back. Dude had a 65
inch chest, so this was no willowy kid.

I had already had a few kickback experiences before that happened. The
first one occured when I was in junior high school screwing around with
my old mans table saw. I was pulling something through the back side
with the blade guard off when it twisted and threw my finger into the
blade. I cut halfway through the first digit of my left hand middle
finger. It was cut exactly halfway through and if the blade had been any
higher than a half inch above the thickness of the stock, I would have
lost the entire tip of the finger, which incidentally would have made my
index finger, middle finger, and ring finger all exactly the same
legnth, lol.

The other one happened my freshman year of HS when I got a kickback on
the big old 12 inch RAS. Somehow it managed to kickback away from me and
flew into the wall behind the RAS snapping off the wooden fence and
makign a hell of a boom.

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article , Mike W.
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.

That is one magic piece of hickory. (Apologies to Oliver Stone).

Seriously, I don't doubt it. My one experience was a small piece of pine,
1x2x~6", that would have taken off a piece of my cheek, lip, and ear if I
hadn't had on glasses and ear muffs. About half my face was numb for two
days. I now wear these things not just because of the danger of flying
particles and hearing damage, but also for the physical protection they
afford. Oh, and I also traded my Craftsman contractor's saw in for a new
Unisaw, in hopes that the fence will stay in adjustment (it has now, for 10
years).

--
Mike
NRA Life Member

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:idCaf.30009$bb3.11443@trnddc02...


We set up a piece of plywood in front of a table saw once and
drew a target on it. We would leave the fence slightly loose,
run a piece of 1x4 through the saw (to make a 3/4 x 3/4
piece), then push the fence into the piece and send it flying
back (intentional kickback). You can put a 6 foot piece of
3/4 x 3/4 pine about 3 feet through a 3/4 inch thick piece of
plywood from 15 feet away that way. Really makes you respect
the power. Love those Powermatics!

Hmmmmm... My compound bow will launch an arrow at somewhere above 240fps.
That translates to around 160mph if I do the math correctly. It won't come
near to putting an arrow through a 3/4in piece of plywood from any distance.
I have to confess, I've never tried to put it through a piece of wood at 5
yards, but I have hit a target frame or two over the years at 20 yards and
penetration is only an inch or two. A six foot piece of 1x1 will surely
have little enough spine to distort upon impact and just makes me have to
question its ability to penetrate a piece of plywood any amount at 5 yards,
let alone penetrate it three feet.


In those 35 years, I have never used a table saw with a blade
guard, splitter or anti kickback pawls. But this is what I do
for a living, so I guess I am just used to saws that way.
Haven't had any other harmful kickbacks. A few kickbacks, but
none that have hurt me. I always stand out of the way.


Likewise, I've never used a guard or a splitter or pawls for roughly the
same period of time. It's not that I wouldn't use them, but I've never had
a saw with them. Kickback is a very real consideration, but I have argued
in the past, and continue to believe that kickback is something that should
be understood in order to be dealt with, and not something that one attempts
to avoid by blindly placing faith in adjuncts. We see enough posts here on
a regular enough basis, where the author is saying "gee, I had all of the
safety equipment in place and I got a kickback - what happened?". Sometimes
we get complacent with the gear that is on the tools and we let our guard
down when it comes to the basics.

--

-Mike-

"Greg G." wrote in message
...


But it's the little things that will get you.
Ripping 10' x 10" x 2" lumber, never had a problem. You KNOW this is
a tough job and to keep your wits about you. It's that little piece
of hardboard your going to shave a 1/4" inch from the edge of that'll
get you in the end... DAMHIKT


You too!!!???

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .


But it's the little things that will get you.
Ripping 10' x 10" x 2" lumber, never had a problem. You KNOW this is
a tough job and to keep your wits about you. It's that little piece
of hardboard your going to shave a 1/4" inch from the edge of that'll
get you in the end... DAMHIKT


You too!!!???

Yep, it left a small cut, but a large bruise on my hand.
Must have hit pretty hard, cause there was bleeding under the skin,
and it hurt like the dickens for weeks.

The cut was through - but I let the piece _just_ kiss the back of the
blade. And it'll never happen again, if I can help it. It was one of
those _What If_ moments, for sure.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .


But it's the little things that will get you.
Ripping 10' x 10" x 2" lumber, never had a problem. You KNOW this is
a tough job and to keep your wits about you. It's that little piece
of hardboard your going to shave a 1/4" inch from the edge of that'll
get you in the end... DAMHIKT


You too!!!???

Yep, it left a small cut, but a large bruise on my hand.
Must have hit pretty hard, cause there was bleeding under the skin,
and it hurt like the dickens for weeks.

The cut was through - but I let the piece _just_ kiss the back of the
blade. And it'll never happen again, if I can help it. It was one of
those _What If_ moments, for sure.


It only has to happen one time and you quickly figure out that the slight
"swishing" sound you hear is a precursor to a very bad thing. And to
think - it's such a gentle little sound...

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow said:

"Greg G." wrote in message

Yep, it left a small cut, but a large bruise on my hand.
Must have hit pretty hard, cause there was bleeding under the skin,
and it hurt like the dickens for weeks.

The cut was through - but I let the piece _just_ kiss the back of the
blade. And it'll never happen again, if I can help it. It was one of
those _What If_ moments, for sure.


It only has to happen one time and you quickly figure out that the slight
"swishing" sound you hear is a precursor to a very bad thing. And to
think - it's such a gentle little sound...

That is probably one reservation I held for a while about a more
powerful saw - what if it had been 3HP instead of 1HP.

On a lathe, you can leave the belt a little lose to help cushion the
response to a catch, but you still have to deal with the kinetic
energy contained in the rotating object. On a 3HP table saw, that
isn't an option - it doesn't jam and stall, it rips it outta there and
sends it flying, continuing to merrily spin along, never skipping a
beat.

When I first purchased a WWII table saw blade, that thing was _SO_
freaken sharp it was unnerving. It was like 40 little well formed,
scary-sharpened chisels all vying for a piece-o-me. Granted, the
blade's sharpness ultimately means less than it's speed and energy -
they'll all cut your fingers off just as quick - but that thing just
made it seem so ... scary ...


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
That is probably one reservation I held for a while about a more
powerful saw - what if it had been 3HP instead of 1HP.

Unless it's a particularly big and heavy piece of wood caught in a kickback
scenario, I wouldn't expect HP to make all that much difference. It's likely
that RPM would be similar between different HP ratings.

Upscale said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
That is probably one reservation I held for a while about a more
powerful saw - what if it had been 3HP instead of 1HP.

Unless it's a particularly big and heavy piece of wood caught in a kickback
scenario, I wouldn't expect HP to make all that much difference. It's likely
that RPM would be similar between different HP ratings.

I've been known to rip 2 1/4" strips from 8 foot 2x10 SYP boards.
Built my workbench this way, cut them apart, glue them back together.
(Sounds crazy, I know.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/WorkBench01.jpg

But the amount of reaction wood contained in these 'veneer cores' was
amazing. Big, sappy, pinching things. They did smell good when cut,
however - kinda like Christmas. Didn't try letting the blade burn, or
I could have had a forest fire odor as well.

My wimpy little saw barely cut it, much less left enough power to
throw it too far. Two more HP would have made a different in this
scenario, I fear.

On the average furniture project, no, it probably wouldn't have
differed a whit.


Greg G.

"Mike W." wrote in message
...

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw again'
incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Those of us who learned to stand out of the way when ripping and to let it
fly when in doubt have had few, if any injuries, I'm sure.

Now the wall has suffered a few indignities from ripping poplar (real
poplar) and wood from right at the heart of the tree, but not even my wooden
fingers were damaged.

I was cutting 1/4 flooring on my RAS, the finish was too slick for the
anti kick back pawls. it threw the piece at me and hit me 2 inches
right of the family jewels, tearing my leather apron and blue jeans on
its way. Didn't break the skin but I had trouble sitting on my orange
size balls for a long while.

Mike Pio wrote:
"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.
[snip]
So this piece traveled a total distance of 37 feet? It traveled 12' in one
direction, hit a door, turned 180 degrees and traveled 25 more feet??? Was
the second leg of its trip mostly sliding on the ground? How powerful was
the saw and did the piece fly off at face level?

Think semi-elastic collision and, if the door was leaning against the
wall, angle of incidence vs. angle of reflection.

er
--

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

Snip

Those of us who learned to stand out of the way when ripping and to let it
fly when in doubt have had few, if any injuries, I'm sure.

IMHO standing to the side and letting the wood fly by is part of the
problem. I have on several occasions had the wood fly by while I was not in
the line of path of the blade and have been hit. Again, IMHO it is when you
do not have a FIRM hold and let go of the stock that the kick back has the
opportunity to develope. The push sticks that simply allow you to push the
stock through from the back edge of the stock scare the hell out of me. You
have to keep the stock down on the table surface to prevent it from flying
back. With out downward pressure there is nothing to keep the board from
lifting and possibly kicking back. I have often had the stock start to lift
up and I simply push back down. Often the piece is damaged but the wood
stays on top of the saw. I find that with a firm hand or with the use of a
push stick that allows you to apply downward pressure along several inches
of the wood so that the blade simply cuts a gouge rather than kicking the
wood from the blade keeps the situation from developing.

And to go a bit farther,;~) Many believe that a more powerful saw is likely
to do more harm. Again IMHO and with my experience a saw with a dull blade
and or less power is more likely to kick back than one with more hp and a
sharp blade. I had many more close calls with my old Craftsman with the 1
hp motor than my Jet with the 3 hp motor. I believe that when cutting
stock that was a challenge for the saw that I would handle the stock with a
lighter grip/touch to prevent stalling the motor. The light hold on the
wood would often present a problem. With 3 hp I always have a firm grip and
easily push the wood back down to the table surface should it begin to raise
up. With more power the blade simply cuts a new path rather than grab and
throw the wood back with that light grip.

IMHO being in position to firmly hold down the wood and learning to deal
with and not panic during a developing situation that would lead to a kick
back is better than trying to keep out of the way.


Do not procede with any procedure that you would feel unsafe in doing.






Now the wall has suffered a few indignities from ripping poplar (real
poplar) and wood from right at the heart of the tree, but not even my
wooden fingers were damaged.

"Mike W." wrote:


....
How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?
....

In roughly 30 yrs I've never experienced any instance of severe
kickback.

I do not use the TS splitter.

My only real conscious practice is to routinely push _everything_
completely through and take offcuts away immediately and to ensure blade
is at proper depth to clear surface.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 03:25:37 GMT, "Mike W."
wrote:

Before you read this, please understand I am not asking if it's OK to be
unsafe and have a kickback incident, I just want to know what really
happens to us all.

A post about a year ago from me describes a kickback incident I had that
hurt pretty bad. The board didnt break the skin, but blood finally made
it to the surface of my gut the next day. I never want to have that
happen again, but a recent post titled 'Table saw wood splitter/anti
kick back question' made me wonder what people are actually referring
too when they say stuff like "it'll eventually get you".

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Mine was a 'put a bandaid on it' (plus a new pair of undies) incident.
A year later and I'm still ultra careful and hate to think what would
have happend had my gut been my head in that instance.

Thanks,

Mike


I've had two, both my fault, not the equipment

Late at night wanted to make just one more cut. full bevel cut on a
right tilt and I was just a little too lazy to change the fence over
to get the tilt going away from the fence. Trapped piece kicked back,
caught me in the side then traveled another ten feet and put a deep
ding in a solid ply shop door. Bruise on my side lasted for weeks.

second was on a planer. Put a piece in that was too short for the
machine. Kicked out and turned the feed hand black and blue and
unusable for a week or so.

As mentioned, I knew better in both cases. Wasn't the fault of the
machines, simply operator error.

Frank

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

That is probably one reservation I held for a while about a more
powerful saw - what if it had been 3HP instead of 1HP.

I find that with more HP the saw and the sharp blade are more likely to cut
the wood thather than catch it and throw it back. Its the under powered
saws that require you ro finess the wood through with a light hand that
tends to catch and throw the wood.


On a lathe, you can leave the belt a little lose to help cushion the
response to a catch, but you still have to deal with the kinetic
energy contained in the rotating object. On a 3HP table saw, that
isn't an option - it doesn't jam and stall, it rips it outta there and
sends it flying, continuing to merrily spin along, never skipping a
beat.

My experience with the more powerful saw is that it indeed does not jam or
stall nor with a firm grip does it rip it outta there and send it flying.
My experience with more power and a firm grip the blade simply cuts in
another direction. Similar to a hot knife cutting into room temperature
butter I find less resistance with a change of cutting direction which
normally leads to a kick back.

When I first purchased a WWII table saw blade, that thing was _SO_
freaken sharp it was unnerving. It was like 40 little well formed,
scary-sharpened chisels all vying for a piece-o-me. Granted, the
blade's sharpness ultimately means less than it's speed and energy -
they'll all cut your fingers off just as quick - but that thing just
made it seem so ... scary ...

Do not fear the sharp blade. It will more easily cut your wood rather than
catch the wood and throw it back than a less sharp blade. Additionally,
fingers will cut off just as easily with a blade that has had all of its
carbide teeth broken off . I have been there and done that. Fingers are
MUCH softer than wood. ;~)

"Leon" wrote in message
et...
IMHO being in position to firmly hold down the wood and learning to deal
with and not panic during a developing situation that would lead to a kick
back is better than trying to keep out of the way.


Do not procede with any procedure that you would feel unsafe in doing.


Well, the very best way to avoid danger is - to avoid it. I'll say that
with out qualification. If you're not there, you can't get hit. If you
haven't seen the classic body positions from the basic woodworking
literature on how to rip on a tablesaw, look at them. Good information.

And letting go is a great option in my opinion, it's one that I developed by
reading accident reports in my former job, where most fatalities were from
delaying ejection (trying to salvage something) until out of the envelope.
When it doubt - punch out.

I'm not going to risk my fingers for _any_ piece of wood, I don't care if
it's ebony. Nor would I recommend it to anyone else.

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 05:17:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:idCaf.30009$bb3.11443@trnddc02...


We set up a piece of plywood in front of a table saw once and
drew a target on it. We would leave the fence slightly loose,
run a piece of 1x4 through the saw (to make a 3/4 x 3/4
piece), then push the fence into the piece and send it flying
back (intentional kickback). You can put a 6 foot piece of
3/4 x 3/4 pine about 3 feet through a 3/4 inch thick piece of
plywood from 15 feet away that way. Really makes you respect
the power. Love those Powermatics!

Hmmmmm... My compound bow will launch an arrow at somewhere above 240fps.
That translates to around 160mph if I do the math correctly. It won't come
near to putting an arrow through a 3/4in piece of plywood from any distance.
I have to confess, I've never tried to put it through a piece of wood at 5
yards, but I have hit a target frame or two over the years at 20 yards and
penetration is only an inch or two. A six foot piece of 1x1 will surely
have little enough spine to distort upon impact and just makes me have to
question its ability to penetrate a piece of plywood any amount at 5 yards,
let alone penetrate it three feet.


the physics involved look something like this:
your compound bow is human powered. you can never put into it more
than about 1/3HP. it stores a bit and releases it progressively, but I
doubt that it's applying more than that 1/3HP. this is why your arrows
are so light- otherwise they wouldn't be able to go so fast.

a longbow shoots a heavier arrow, but it takes one very strong guy to
draw it. a longbow was supposed to be able to penetrate chain mail-
it'd probbly penetrate 3/4" plywood.

crossbows usually are too high a draw to be pulled by human arms.
they are mechanically cranked, and shoot an even heavier bolt. they
would penetrate plate armor. prolly not even slow down much through
plywood.

my tablesaw is 3HP. it can launch a chunk of wood approximately 9
times as heavy as your bow can shoot an arrow, as fast. that is a lot
more energy being delivered to that piece of plywood.

I don't know if it would penetrate 3/4" plywood in a kickback. I hope
I never find out.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 03:25:37 GMT, "Mike W."
scribbled:
How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

About 15 years ago, I was doing a test cut on my table saw. I stupidly
used a short piece of 2X4 (about 4 inches long). I was holding it
gingerly instead of using a push stick and didn't have a firm grip on
it. Needless to say, it kicked back right on my left tit. I yelled out
and cursed in at least three languages. The LOML thought I had chopped
off a hand or something. No blood on the outside, but my tit turned
all kinds of neat colours, purple, blue, green, red, yellow, etc. No
permanent damage.
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...ct_Woodworking

I had 3 cases worth mentioning. One was a 45 degree cut with the main
panel on top of the blade and the off cut under and away from the
fence. The off cut kicked back and hit me in the abdomen. I have done
the same cut a number of times since, and the off cut piece hasn't ever
kicked back since.
Another time, I was crosscutting some short pieces. I put a block on
the fence to measure with and to provide room so that the pieces
wouldn't bind and kick back. Well, the pieces were wider than long, and
one turned sideways and kicked back.
The other time was on a construction site. A guy provided a Ryobi bench
top table saw for ripping some siding into corner blocks. This is a saw
that has trouble cutting dry 2 x 4 material. A buddy ripped off a 4
inch wide piece and left it. It slowly kicked back and barely cleared
the table saw. I imagine the weak saw, and with no outfeed table so the
piece arched and barely contacted the blade, and a low fence combined
for a wimpy kickback. I told him that if he had been using my shop saw
(Unisaw) that the off cut would have gone across the pool, across the
driveway and into his truck, and he didn't seem to understand.
robo hippy

s writes:


[...]

the physics involved look something like this:
your compound bow is human powered. you can never put into it more
than about 1/3HP. it stores a bit and releases it progressively, but I

Power does not come into this calculation, but force.
(Power as in energy per time, energy as in force times path length)
Also momentum (mass times speed) is an issue.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

I will give you three. Two that have happened to me during 35 years or so
of table saw use. One very serious one that happended to a friend of my son:

1) Many years ago I got a piece of 1/2" plywood (about 2' square) crossed up
in the table saw that WAS fitted with a splitter. I think the mass of the
plywood just overpowered the splitter and pawls because it lifted off of the
table and a corner of the piece hit me in the chest. Hurt-no band aids.

2) About four years ago I was cutting ripping the edge off of a piece of 2x
about 1-/2' long and got a kickback (no splitter - shame!). I saw it coming
and stepped aside. The piece of wood flew about 10' across the garage and
ended up hanging from a hole in the sheetrock. Could have hurt real bad.

3) I have posted about my son's buddy a couple of times since it happend
last spring. He was planing some thin stock in a surface planer. They
don't know exactly what happened but a piece of stock, apparently about 1"
square and several feet long, got past the rollers and impaled him in the
abdomen. He ended up with much of the stock protruding from his back.
Luckily it missed most organs but did nick an intestine. He spent quite a
bit of time in the hospital and as of a month or so ago he was 'almost' back
up to speed. Unusual but rest assured this could happen with a table saw
too.

RonB

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 03:25:37 GMT, "Mike W."
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

Loads of them, never stood where they were going to get me.

Last one was in taking angled filler strips off the edge of a softwood
board. These were maybe 1/2" x 1/4" at most, so pretty lightweight. The
saw fired one off (between the blade and the fence) which flew a couple
of feet then hit a light plastic toolbox on the shelf behind. It punched
a neat hole in one side, then out the other.

So even if it's only a lightweight offcut, don't underestimate the
energy in those trimmings!.

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:26:31 -0700, "Mike Pio"
wrote:


"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
stone.ca...
In article , Mike W.
wrote:

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

I had a 1x1 piece of hickory kick past me 12' to the wall, put a 1/2"
deep dent in a solid-core door leaning there then bounce back, hit the
opposite wall 25' feet away, and land on the floor in front of the saw.

I've never been hit, because I never stand in the kickback path.

djb

--
"I don't like dealing with people. I'd rather be back working in Human
Resources."

My wife, Oct 27 2005 after having to fill in at another department.

So this piece traveled a total distance of 37 feet? It traveled 12' in one
direction, hit a door, turned 180 degrees and traveled 25 more feet??? Was
the second leg of its trip mostly sliding on the ground? How powerful was
the saw and did the piece fly off at face level?

If I follow the description correctly, it went in a triangular path.
12" directly away from the saw, then 25" to opposite wall, then
however far back to the saw. The total distance computation would
require some angles, but has to be more than 37'. If it turned 180
degrees as you assume then the total distance would have been 50' (12
to one wall then 25 going past the saw, then back 13 feet to the saw).
Whew...didn't add one little bit to the actual conversation there, did
I?

Dave Hall

Mike W. wrote:
Before you read this, please understand I am not asking if it's OK to be
unsafe and have a kickback incident, I just want to know what really
happens to us all.

A post about a year ago from me describes a kickback incident I had that
hurt pretty bad. The board didnt break the skin, but blood finally made
it to the surface of my gut the next day. I never want to have that
happen again, but a recent post titled 'Table saw wood splitter/anti
kick back question' made me wonder what people are actually referring
too when they say stuff like "it'll eventually get you".

How many people here have had a significant kickback incident?

How bad was it? Was it just a 'put a bandaid on it and get back to
sawing' incident or a 'Im not sure I ever want to touch a tablesaw
again' incident? Was it really a life threatening issue?

Mine was a 'put a bandaid on it' (plus a new pair of undies) incident. A
year later and I'm still ultra careful and hate to think what would have
happend had my gut been my head in that instance.

Thanks,

Mike

Not sure these qualify as kickback, but they seem to line up with what
others are posting.

First was a brief moment of misjudgment (read: stupidity). I was moving a
piece of ~ 1' x 2' ply I had recently rabetted from the right extension wing
of my TS to my workbench, and I swung it into the blade. Board caught me in
the gut and knocked the wind out of me. No bruising or cuts, but enough of a
scare to call it quits for the day. At the time my saw was a tiny little 50
year old Craftsman (crapsmen for the more clever in the group) with an 8"
blade. I think my DW746 would've caused a bit more damage.

The other time was when I was planing a board that I now realize was way too
thin... I was approaching 1/8". The board broke at a knot, and the planer
sent half of it sailing out so fast that I never even saw it. My only clue
that something happened was that only half the board came out the other end.
(I had ear plugs AND over-the-ear muffs on at the time). I eventually found
the missing half lying on my garage^H^H^H^H^H^Hworkshop floor by the door,
with a fresh 1/2" deep impression in the door a couple above it. I'm not
entirely sure how it got past the infeed rollers. Perhaps that half of the
board was thinner than the half that had already gone through.

Work safe.

-John in NH

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
et...
IMHO being in position to firmly hold down the wood and learning to
deal
with and not panic during a developing situation that would lead to a
kick
back is better than trying to keep out of the way.


Do not procede with any procedure that you would feel unsafe in doing.


Well, the very best way to avoid danger is - to avoid it. I'll say that
with out qualification. If you're not there, you can't get hit. If you
haven't seen the classic body positions from the basic woodworking
literature on how to rip on a tablesaw, look at them. Good information.

I think what Leon is saying George - and I agree with it, is that better
control and observation will result in fewer kickbacks. Kickback is not
something that is "going to happen". It does not have to be a part of your
woodworking endeavor. Standing off to the side positions the operator to be
in less control over the workpiece and increases the likelihood of kickback.
Kickback is not magic - it is very predictable and very observable. Good
practice makes a better preventative measure than adopting postions that
lessen your control and observation of what's taking place.


And letting go is a great option in my opinion, it's one that I developed
by
reading accident reports in my former job, where most fatalities were from
delaying ejection (trying to salvage something) until out of the envelope.
When it doubt - punch out.

I'm not in favor of letting go. That guarantees the outcome. Why let go
when controlling the piece will result in an incident free cut? There's
quite a bit of difference between controlling a cut to prevent a kickback
and punching out of an airplane. Though at some point one could certainly
draw an anology between a jet and an errant piece of wood...


I'm not going to risk my fingers for _any_ piece of wood, I don't care if
it's ebony. Nor would I recommend it to anyone else.



Yeah - but that's not at all a part of what's being discussed. I'll take it
one point further and say that I'm not about to willingly let a piece of
wood go ballistic when I possess the ability to control it through the cut
and to a restful place on the other side of the saw blade.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:04:04 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


In roughly 30 yrs I've never experienced any instance of severe
kickback.

I do not use the TS splitter.

My only real conscious practice is to routinely push _everything_
completely through and take offcuts away immediately and to ensure blade
is at proper depth to clear surface.

Duane,
I'm with you, in 35 years I've never had anything like severe and I
don't use the splitter. But I can still remember the first day of
instruction on the TS in woodshop. Took 4 years in it with the same
instructor, Mr Norman. A skilled woodworker with all digits he did
not tolerate safety infractions at any level, from cluttered work
areas to improperly maintained equipment. You didn't follow safety
procedures you would never finish the class.
Before turning on any equipment you had to pass a written exam on
safely using it. Turning off equipment when a power outage happens is
ingrained in me. Its like my military serial number.

Like you I try and make safety a conscious procedure. Because there
is always a first time. My good shop buddy lost a thumb with his TS
and he is just as safety conscious as anyone. Just needed to make one
crosscut on a small piece of pine, he didn't take the 2min. to walk
over and grab his sled and put it on. Why, he was going to rip a bunch
of oak and thought he could handle the crosscut and save a few
minutes.
Just one time and one thumb.
Ed

In article wpBaf.65510$WR2.17264@fed1read03, Mike Pio
wrote:

So this piece traveled a total distance of 37 feet? It traveled 12' in one
direction, hit a door, turned 180 degrees and traveled 25 more feet??? Was
the second leg of its trip mostly sliding on the ground? How powerful was
the saw and did the piece fly off at face level?

It fired past me at waist level (Skil bench saw), hit the door standing
against the wall, came back past me, hit the opposite wall (in the air)
and slid on the floor back towards me.

37 feet isn't as far as you think...

--
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

In article , Leon
wrote:

Hummm.. The kick back path is anywhere behind the saw. I suspect you have
never been hit because you have been lucky also. I have had a kick back go
out over the fence and to the right side of the saw.

Possible, I suppose. It's more likely I'm cautious and don't like to
attempt dangerous cuts.

The kickback incident I described earlier is the only significant
kickback I've ever experienced, and it was a dangerous cut, and I was
well aware of the danger.

It was also not a cut I would try again.

--
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

"Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message
...
s writes:


[...]

the physics involved look something like this:
your compound bow is human powered. you can never put into it more
than about 1/3HP. it stores a bit and releases it progressively, but I

Power does not come into this calculation, but force.
(Power as in energy per time, energy as in force times path length)
Also momentum (mass times speed) is an issue.


Your web site indicates you have a strong physics background. Would you
mind putting some calculations together for us for the major saw horsepower
ratings? I think we mainly know horsepower to start with, not torque. Can
you figure out some ballpark velocities and force numbers for 1 hp, 1 1/2
hp, 3 hp and 5 hp saws?

(if you have time, of course. I'm just curious...)

-m

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Greg G. wrote:
Mike Marlow said:


"Greg G." wrote in message

Yep, it left a small cut, but a large bruise on my hand.
Must have hit pretty hard, cause there was bleeding under the skin,
and it hurt like the dickens for weeks.

The cut was through - but I let the piece _just_ kiss the back of the
blade. And it'll never happen again, if I can help it. It was one of
those _What If_ moments, for sure.


It only has to happen one time and you quickly figure out that the slight
"swishing" sound you hear is a precursor to a very bad thing. And to
think - it's such a gentle little sound...


That is probably one reservation I held for a while about a more
powerful saw - what if it had been 3HP instead of 1HP.

On a lathe, you can leave the belt a little lose to help cushion the
response to a catch, but you still have to deal with the kinetic
energy contained in the rotating object. On a 3HP table saw, that
isn't an option - it doesn't jam and stall, it rips it outta there and
sends it flying, continuing to merrily spin along, never skipping a
beat.

When I first purchased a WWII table saw blade, that thing was _SO_
freaken sharp it was unnerving. It was like 40 little well formed,
scary-sharpened chisels all vying for a piece-o-me. Granted, the
blade's sharpness ultimately means less than it's speed and energy -
they'll all cut your fingers off just as quick - but that thing just
made it seem so ... scary ...


Greg G.
Something my Dad taught me and I try to live by ;-
Machines are alive.
They never apologise.
If you're scared of them, they will sense it and bite.
If you respect them, They will respect you.
If you treat them well, they will treat you well.
If you let them work at their own pace, they'll work forever.
If you push them, they'll push back and eventually jack up.
Machines are always happier doing the job they were designed for.
and finally
You only shake hands with a Power House once.

regards
John

John B said:

Greg G. wrote:

When I first purchased a WWII table saw blade, that thing was _SO_
freaken sharp it was unnerving. It was like 40 little well formed,
scary-sharpened chisels all vying for a piece-o-me. Granted, the
blade's sharpness ultimately means less than it's speed and energy -
they'll all cut your fingers off just as quick - but that thing just
made it seem so ... scary ...

Something my Dad taught me and I try to live by ;-
Machines are alive.
They never apologise.
If you're scared of them, they will sense it and bite.
If you respect them, They will respect you.
If you treat them well, they will treat you well.
If you let them work at their own pace, they'll work forever.
If you push them, they'll push back and eventually jack up.
Machines are always happier doing the job they were designed for.
and finally
You only shake hands with a Power House once.

John,

Perhaps 'scary' wasn't the correct term - used mostly for drama.
I did pop it on there and saw away - not leave it in a drawer for six
months or anything... ;-)

But nevertheless, the vision in your mind's eye of that blade sawing
through your fingers - the 'what if' scenario - was enough to send a
shiver up your spine... Kind of like the rush you get looking down
from the top edge of a really tall California cliff...

And as for your dad's advice, he's absolutely right.
With the notable exception of forever part... ;-)
Things aren't what they used to be...
(I grew up around whirring machinery and coursing electrons.)


Greg G.