Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best' ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

* By encouraging customers to re-use carrier bags

* By charging over cost price for the bags and donating profits to
environmental schemes

* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where to
find them.

* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and left them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves. I certainly didn't need the 2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the rain
on the way to the car.

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
--
fred

In article , Fred wrote:
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the
'best' ideas are tried out), but B&Q up here has started
charging for carrier bags.

It was mentioned on BBC2 Working Lunch last week. B&Q have had to
do this in their Eire stores and are now trying it here.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

* By encouraging customers to re-use carrier bags

* By charging over cost price for the bags and donating profits to
environmental schemes

* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste
of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next
to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where to
find them.

* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't
try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and left
them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves. I certainly didn't need the 2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the
rain
on the way to the car.

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

I'm not impressed with your response. We always carry Bags for Life carriers
with me when we go shopping. They cost 10p each and have lasted a very long
time. We sometimes also carry cloth bags, they're suitable for loose
vegetables with soil sticking to them.

They're all suitable for bits and pieces from shed shelves, even wire wool.

Mary
--
fred

"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

* By encouraging customers to re-use carrier bags

* By charging over cost price for the bags and donating profits to
environmental schemes

* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste
of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next
to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where to
find them.

* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't
try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and left
them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves. I certainly didn't need the 2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the
rain
on the way to the car.

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
--
fred

Personally, I think it's a decent idea.

However what woudl have ****ed me off is the lack of any forewarning that
this is what they are doing. I've been in and out of the local warehouse a
few times last wek but didn't see anything on it. I've just heard today on
the radio that it is currently only in Scotland, with plans to role out
nationwide.

cheers

David

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:33:37 GMT, fred wrote:


* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste of
binbags,

As do we, even giving our surplus to our mate who runs a local cycle
shop. Lot's of folk don't recycle them though .. judging by the number
that land in my front garden?


* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where to
find them.

Better they do that than just *pocket* the difference eh Fred? And if
you take your own or 'lifetime' bags you aren't forced to contribute
anything to anyone?


* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I wouldn't be bother to lobby anyone re carrier bags Fred .. not while
folk are being stabbed on the street?

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and left them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves.

Ok, as long as you walked there .... otherwise the wasted fuel would
have cost more than a fistfull of bags and worse for the environment?

I certainly didn't need the 2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the rain
on the way to the car.

Doh! Might have been worth the 5p then?

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

I nearly said 'disinterested' but you genuinly seemed like you wanted
some replies. I might be effected as I am a shopper but the solution
is fairly easy .. we do what our parents have always done and go
shopping with a shopping bag or two! I often have a carrier bag (or
more) in my jacket pockets and there are always a few in each of the
cars / bikes / cycles if we are out and decide to buy something. If
shopping for bits I often just fill my pockets (at the checkout that
is g), saves leaving the bag somewhere!

We also have a sign on the front door saying 'No free papers'. Enough
still come through for the odd job that neads some, but it saves
having to fill up the recycling box with unread (nor wanted) free
papers?

We also subscribe to MPS ( http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/ ) and
that means even less paper to recycle (stopping it a source).

All the best Fred ..

T i m

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:33:37 GMT, fred wrote:

Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best' ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

* By encouraging customers to re-use carrier bags

* By charging over cost price for the bags and donating profits to
environmental schemes

* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where to
find them.

* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and left them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves. I certainly didn't need the 2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the rain
on the way to the car.

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

Totally brilliant idea, should have happened years ago. Personally I
almost always refuse the carrier bags, as I use them for a few
minuites, and chuck them away.

I lived in Switzerland, where such ideas are more prevelant, if I had
my way, the whole country would be doing the swiss levels of
re-cycling the day after I became prime minister. Richard Brunstrooms
"speed pigs" would become the recycling police, with the ability to
issue massive on the spot fines.

The Germans have squads that search your bins that you put out, to
make sure you recycle all the right stuff.

Rick

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:22:33 -0000, "David" wrote:


However what woudl have ****ed me off is the lack of any forewarning that
this is what they are doing. I've been in and out of the local warehouse a
few times last wek but didn't see anything on it. I've just heard today on
the radio that it is currently only in Scotland, with plans to role out
nationwide.


It didn't work for the Poll Tax did it?


DG

"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

snip

They could do much more for the environment if they stopped retailing
everything in blister packs etc. IMO. Just what can you use am empty blister
pack for, a plastic bag can be used for many purposes around the home.

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:39:47 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:



The Germans have squads that search your bins that you put out, to
make sure you recycle all the right stuff.

"We hav vays of making it werk"

And a good thing too? It seems some folk will only 'bother' when
forced into it and even then get it wrong .. sigh

The number of times I have seen a large box full of mixed household
rubbish in the 'carboard only' skip, just because the box itself is
cardboard? And how difficult is it to flat pack a box *before* you use
it to completely fill the small wheely recycling bins at the local
council offices?

On the flip side I've been warned off *a* council recycling place
because it's not *my* local recycling place .. even though ecology
dictates I should use the one I'm going to be driving past (rather
than going in the opposite direction)?

All the best ..

T i m

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:05 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

snip

They could do much more for the environment if they stopped retailing
everything in blister packs etc. IMO. Just what can you use am empty blister
pack for, a plastic bag can be used for many purposes around the home.

Good point!

Although, in some cases, I dare say the blister helps protect the
contents from damage .. preventing more 'waste' (should it get
broken).

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

All the best ,,

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:05 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

snip

They could do much more for the environment if they stopped retailing
everything in blister packs etc. IMO. Just what can you use am empty
blister
pack for, a plastic bag can be used for many purposes around the home.

Good point!

Although, in some cases, I dare say the blister helps protect the
contents from damage .. preventing more 'waste' (should it get
broken).

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

You mean weighing nails and not being able to buy twelve when you really
want fourteen?

Bliss.

All those drawers full of really useful stuff - and men and women who
actually knew what things were for and what size screw would be best for the
job and two types of drawer handle so that you didn't have to make a
decision for Spouse?

And a large dog outside with whom you could leave the baby in its pram.

(we lived opposite one like that for four years).

They never offered carrier bags though ...

Mary

All the best ,,

T i m

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:30:37 GMT, T i m wrote:

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

I have one of those - Staple Hill, Bristol

Last stuff I bought was flowers of sulphur and 25% ammonia. No problem
finding either.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:30:37 GMT, T i m wrote:

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

I have one of those - Staple Hill, Bristol

Last stuff I bought was flowers of sulphur and 25% ammonia. No problem
finding either.

We used to sell flowers of sulphur (loose) in the chemists I worked at.

sigh

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be ...

Mary

fred wrote:
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best' ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:
Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

It's a good idea. Are you a habitual whinger? You've only wasted a
small amount of the store's time, but *you* dragged yourself to B&Q,
*you* found the bits you wanted, took *you* them to the till, had your
chat (did *you* have to wait for the manager to arrive), then *you* left
without the stuff *you* went there for.

Nose. Spite. Face.

--
Hywel

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

* By encouraging customers to re-use carrier bags

* By charging over cost price for the bags and donating profits to
environmental schemes

* By acting ahead of proposed legislation to apply penalty taxes to the
sale of carrier bags

I replied that:

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste
of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next
to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

* If I wish to make a donation to environmental charities, I know where
to
find them.

* I'll be happy to lobby my elected rep when the introduction of penalty
taxes for carrier bags is debated in parliament, until then please don't
try to
second guess proposed legislation.

I decided I didn't really need the bits & pieces I had collected and
left
them
for the manager to re-stack on the shelves. I certainly didn't need the
2
large hanks of wire wool that were in the basket getting soaked in the
rain
on the way to the car.

Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

I'm not impressed with your response. We always carry Bags for Life
carriers
with me when we go shopping. They cost 10p each and have lasted a very
long
time. We sometimes also carry cloth bags, they're suitable for loose
vegetables with soil sticking to them.

They're all suitable for bits and pieces from shed shelves, even wire
wool.

I am not impressed by such ecological friendly responses. And I dont believe
them either ( I go round too many supermarkets and DIY stores to be told
differently.)

getting soap box out and climbing on it

This issue really bugs me and so do the goody goodies who keep telling us to
re use carriers.

I am old enough to remember when my mother used to take a SHOPPING BAG with
her when she went shopping anywhere. When I was young, I too had one. I
had several in fact over the years, a string one which would rollup in your
pocket, a fold up one and proper giant job which would carry Mary Poppins
wardrobe in it! They lasted for years and years, were strong and carried
huge amounts if you got a big sized one.

I stopped using them - or rather I was STOPPED from using it by stores and
store detectives because every time I went into a store with my bag they
eyed me up with suspicion.
So NOW I REQUIRE THEM to provide me with a carrier FREE OF CHARGE EVERY
VISIT!!!!!

They created the situation. They need to find another way of solving it -
dont put it back onto me and dont charge me for a situation they created.

putting soap box away

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:33:37 GMT, fred wrote:



Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

This would be OK if the reason for doing it were genuinely as billed.

Unfortunately, I don't believe it for one minute. Some accountant
has looked at the number of bags that they get through and decided
that 5p a go is a good wheeze to recover that and more.

If they were genuine, they would do what is common in the U.S. and
offer a choice between biodegradable plastic bags or stout paper
sacks, free of charge.

That would demonstrate genuine environmental concern, not the
imposition of an arbitrary bag tax on customers.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:33:37 GMT, fred wrote:



Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

This would be OK if the reason for doing it were genuinely as billed.

Unfortunately, I don't believe it for one minute. Some accountant
has looked at the number of bags that they get through and decided
that 5p a go is a good wheeze to recover that and more.

If they were genuine, they would do what is common in the U.S. and
offer a choice between biodegradable plastic bags or stout paper
sacks, free of charge.

That would demonstrate genuine environmental concern, not the
imposition of an arbitrary bag tax on customers.


Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:05 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

snip

They could do much more for the environment if they stopped retailing
everything in blister packs etc. IMO. Just what can you use am empty blister
pack for, a plastic bag can be used for many purposes around the home.


Then you'd be putting illegal immigrants out of work you terrible
people... ;-)

and I'm not making that up either... the police came and rounded a
load up while they were harmlessly counting your screws and nails into
packets for the B&Q.

Mark S.

"mich" wrote in message
...




Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?

I'm not impressed with your response. We always carry Bags for Life
carriers
with me when we go shopping. They cost 10p each and have lasted a very
long
time. We sometimes also carry cloth bags, they're suitable for loose
vegetables with soil sticking to them.

They're all suitable for bits and pieces from shed shelves, even wire
wool.

I am not impressed by such ecological friendly responses. And I dont
believe
them either ( I go round too many supermarkets and DIY stores to be told
differently.)

er - what don't you believe?

getting soap box out and climbing on it

This issue really bugs me and so do the goody goodies who keep telling us
to
re use carriers.

At no time did I tell anyone to re-use carriers, I said that we did, that's
all.

I am old enough to remember when my mother used to take a SHOPPING BAG
with
her when she went shopping anywhere. When I was young, I too had one. I
had several in fact over the years, a string one which would rollup in
your
pocket, a fold up one and proper giant job which would carry Mary Poppins
wardrobe in it! They lasted for years and years, were strong and carried
huge amounts if you got a big sized one.

I stopped using them - or rather I was STOPPED from using it by stores and
store detectives because every time I went into a store with my bag they
eyed me up with suspicion.

I doubt that anyone would eye a string bag with suspicion, you can't hide
anything in a string bag. I know - we make them (we don't use them).

And as you suggested, they fold up small, as do cloth bags, and can be
carried in a pocket when empty. When full they hide no more than a shop
carrier bag - except the transparent ones of course but are you suggesting
that nothing can be hid in those either?

So NOW I REQUIRE THEM to provide me with a carrier FREE OF CHARGE EVERY
VISIT!!!!!

That's your privilege.

They created the situation. They need to find another way of solving it -
dont put it back onto me and dont charge me for a situation they created.

Er - I haven't put anything back on you.

As it happens, the charge for supermarket carriers - yours or anyone
else's - hardly affects us because we very rarely shop in them.

I don't understand your points :-)

Mary

putting soap box away

"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589

....

If they were genuine, they would do what is common in the U.S. and
offer a choice between biodegradable plastic bags or stout paper
sacks, free of charge.

That would demonstrate genuine environmental concern, not the
imposition of an arbitrary bag tax on customers.


Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.

Mary

"Mark S." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:05 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"fred" wrote in message ...
Don't know if this is just Scotland (seems to be where all the 'best'
ideas
are tried out), but B&Q up here has started charging for carrier bags.

I had a little chat with the manager who informed me that it was them
doing their little bit to save the environment:

snip

They could do much more for the environment if they stopped retailing
everything in blister packs etc. IMO. Just what can you use am empty
blister
pack for, a plastic bag can be used for many purposes around the home.


Then you'd be putting illegal immigrants out of work you terrible
people... ;-)

and I'm not making that up either... the police came and rounded a
load up while they were harmlessly counting your screws and nails into
packets for the B&Q.

Evidence?

Mark S.

In article , fred writes
Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
Wow, so many replies . . . .

I just wanted to canvass a bit of opinion and prompt a debate.

Good points made all round, I like Mary's suggestions the best and will
now be washing out and re-using all the bags I currently use for picking up
dog poop ;-)

As I did say, I am a bag re-user, I just resent the 'tax' and the envirospeak
BS.
--
fred

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , fred writes
Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
Wow, so many replies . . . .

YEs, I think, on the whole, that you've not persuaded the group.

I just wanted to canvass a bit of opinion and prompt a debate.

"fred" wrote in message ...

Good points made all round, I like Mary's suggestions the best and will
now be washing out and re-using all the bags I currently use for picking
up
dog poop ;-)

Just thought about it - it would be cheaper for you to kill the dog.

I'll do it for you if you haven't what it takes.

Mary

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:10:27 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

I have one of those - Staple Hill, Bristol

Address please?
They have a new customer. )

(Mail works if you fear the spam freaks)

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , fred writes
Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
Wow, so many replies . . . .

I just wanted to canvass a bit of opinion and prompt a debate.
As I did say, I am a bag re-user, I just resent the 'tax' and the
envirospeak
BS.
--
fred

i live in Ireland & its amazing how quickly it catchs on. Most people rarely
pay the tax now (15C). You just get into the habit of always having bags in
the car. B & Q don't do paper bags here. I work in a gift shop & we provide
paper bags free of charge at a huge cost to the company. A plastc carrier
bag is lest than 1c , but a paper one is about 20c. The big supermarkets ,
Tesco etc, don't have paper bags. They would save millions if they didn't
have to give away plastic bags. I believe they are pushing for it in
Britain, but can't be seen to be too eager to their customers.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/public_utili...ntal_levy.html

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589
snip

Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we
easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.


Bollox ! Paper degrades.

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589
snip

Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we
easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.


Bollox ! Paper degrades.

It's not just the matter of degrading or not, it's the energy and
materials used to make the bag(s).

If a paper bag uses more energy and raw materials to make it than
a plastic bag then it's going to do more damage to the environment
than a plastic bag even if it degrades into compost or whatever.

If plastic bags are re-used (several times preferably) I wouldn't be a
bit surprised if they cause less damage to the environment than paper
ones.

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589
snip

Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we
easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.


Bollox ! Paper degrades.

It's not just the matter of degrading or not, it's the energy and
materials used to make the bag(s).

If a paper bag uses more energy and raw materials to make it than
a plastic bag then it's going to do more damage to the environment
than a plastic bag even if it degrades into compost or whatever.

er - I didn't say that they were preferable to plastic, just that HB had
been using them for years ...

If they are put into landfill they degrade more swiftly than plastic bags
and, it has been opined, that their degradation is carbon neutral. That's
not true of plastic even in thousands of years.

If plastic bags are re-used (several times preferably) I wouldn't be a
bit surprised if they cause less damage to the environment than paper
ones.

As you suggested, it depends on the Ifs :-)

If paper bags are composted it's largely done by life forms, they don't cost
energy. The resulting composted material contributes - in our case - to our
food. If we grow our own vegetables (and eggs) we are saving energy in terms
of food miles, shoe leather, carrier bags of any kind ...

It's certainly not a simple problem.

Mary
--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589
snip

Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we
easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.


Bollox ! Paper degrades.

It's not just the matter of degrading or not, it's the energy and
materials used to make the bag(s).

If a paper bag uses more energy and raw materials to make it than
a plastic bag then it's going to do more damage to the environment
than a plastic bag even if it degrades into compost or whatever.

If plastic bags are re-used (several times preferably) I wouldn't be a
bit surprised if they cause less damage to the environment than paper
ones.


You still end up using energy to recycle, something that does not happen if
the item is allowed to degrade due to natures natural process. Paper is, in
it's raw material state, in plentiful and manageable supply, not to mention
that the paper that is used for paper bags and the like will have almost
certainly been made out of recycled paper, so that side of the equation has
already taken place.

The reason shops don't use paper carrier bags is because the customers have
little faith, I suspect, due to the standard of paper carrier bags 20 or so
years ago, or because they don't know any different.

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:49:52 GMT, EricP wrote:

I have one of those - Staple Hill, Bristol

Address please?

Just head East on Staple Hill High St, They're in the middle of it,
on your left near the post office.


If you're in Bedminster, Mica hardware or (the rather tiny) Lion
hardware on North Street are pretty good.

In message , Rick Dipper
writes

* I do re-use carrier bags, to dispose of rubbish, saving the cost/waste of
binbags, and to scoop up dog poop that kind owners fail to clear up next to
my house, but that I object to paying at a rate of 5p per poop for the
privilege.

Totally brilliant idea, should have happened years ago. Personally I
almost always refuse the carrier bags, as I use them for a few
minuites, and chuck them away.

I lived in Switzerland, where such ideas are more prevelant, if I had
my way, the whole country would be doing the swiss levels of
re-cycling the day after I became prime minister. Richard Brunstrooms
"speed pigs" would become the recycling police, with the ability to
issue massive on the spot fines.

The Germans have squads that search your bins that you put out, to
make sure you recycle all the right stuff.


I have also adopted the idea of unpacking the goods and leaving the
unwanted packaging for them to dispose of at the till

.... can be a bit of a bugger when returning defective goods, but if
they're going to make a token gesture of 5p a bag, then they could go
the extra 1500 metres and cut down on all that extra unnecessary crap
that the goods come packed in

--
geoff

In message , Andy Dingley
writes
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:30:37 GMT, T i m wrote:

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

I have one of those - Staple Hill, Bristol

Last stuff I bought was flowers of sulphur and 25% ammonia. No problem
finding either.

Ammonia in a paper bag? ... interesting

you need a real polythene bag for that

--
geoff

In message , Mary
Fisher writes

"mich" wrote in message
...

I stopped using them - or rather I was STOPPED from using it by stores and
store detectives because every time I went into a store with my bag they
eyed me up with suspicion.

I doubt that anyone would eye a string bag with suspicion, you can't hide
anything in a string bag. I know - we make them (we don't use them).



I think Mich needs to wonder why he comes across as a such a suspicious
character.

I nearly always go shopping with a bag of some sort, usually a small
backpack or a couple of cycle panniers, never once have I ever had an
issue with this.

My favourite plastic bag tale was about 10 years ago in a large M&S in
London. I bought a small item, a pack of socks or somesuch, when I paid
the checkout person wanted to put it a small plastic bag, I said I
didn't need a bag (I didn't have bag, but it would go in my pocket).

CP: 'I have too'

Me: I don't need one'

etc.

CP ' You need a bag to show you bought it here'

ME ' So if I put something a bag it means I've bought it...That's what
the receipt is for.....'

In the end she insisted in putting it in the bag, I let her, then took
it out and gave her the bag back - she looked so ****ed off.......
--
Chris French, Leeds

In message , ":::Jerry::::"
writes

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...
"Mike Hibbert" wrote in message
news:tnQhd.12589
snip

Actually Homebase do this now, they are actually pretty sturdy, we
easily
carried 4 * 1litre time of paint in it with no problem.

They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either
re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever device is
available.


Bollox ! Paper degrades.

But not very well in landfill sites, buried in the absence of oxygen.

There was quite a detailed article in New Scientist a few years ago
comparing degradation of plastics and paper.

Also, the energy required / environmental impact to produce a paper bag
was comparable to that of a plastic one when the whole process was
looked at

--
geoff

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"mich" wrote in message
...

I stopped using them - or rather I was STOPPED from using it by stores
and
store detectives because every time I went into a store with my bag they
eyed me up with suspicion.

I doubt that anyone would eye a string bag with suspicion, you can't hide
anything in a string bag. I know - we make them (we don't use them).



I think Mich needs to wonder why he comes across as a such a suspicious
character.

I nearly always go shopping with a bag of some sort, usually a small
backpack or a couple of cycle panniers, never once have I ever had an
issue with this.

My favourite plastic bag tale was about 10 years ago in a large M&S in
London. I bought a small item, a pack of socks or somesuch, when I paid
the checkout person wanted to put it a small plastic bag, I said I didn't
need a bag (I didn't have bag, but it would go in my pocket).

CP: 'I have too'

Me: I don't need one'

etc.

CP ' You need a bag to show you bought it here'

ME ' So if I put something a bag it means I've bought it...That's what the
receipt is for.....'

In the end she insisted in putting it in the bag, I let her, then took it
out and gave her the bag back - she looked so ****ed off.......
--
Chris French, Leeds

That reminds me of folk who, when visiting London, bought the cheapest thing
they could find at Harrods just to get the posh bag. Then they'd use that
bag for as long as it lasted. I could never understand it.

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever
device is available.

Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists, and if used on
landfill has no more effect than leaves, etc?

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mary Fisher wrote:

If paper bags are composted it's largely done by life forms, they don't cost
energy. The resulting composted material contributes - in our case - to our
food. If we grow our own vegetables (and eggs) we are saving energy in terms
of food miles, shoe leather, carrier bags of any kind ...

But the 'energy' cost of any sort of bag has very little to do with
how it's disposed of. OK, so you're getting a little more back from
paper bags than you would from plastic ones but I reckon it's pretty
marginal. If the bag takes more energy to *produce* than a plastic
one and/or we use more paper bags than we would have used plastic ones
there's still a net loss.

However I'm not at all sure of the relative energy costs of producing
paper and plastic bags. My gut feeling is that paper uses a fair
amount of energy (evaporating water and such) and paper bags might
well be more energy costly to produce. However plastic bags probably
use more unreplaceable resources (oil in particular).

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
Mary Fisher wrote:

If paper bags are composted it's largely done by life forms, they don't
cost
energy. The resulting composted material contributes - in our case - to
our
food. If we grow our own vegetables (and eggs) we are saving energy in
terms
of food miles, shoe leather, carrier bags of any kind ...

But the 'energy' cost of any sort of bag has very little to do with
how it's disposed of. OK, so you're getting a little more back from
paper bags than you would from plastic ones but I reckon it's pretty
marginal. If the bag takes more energy to *produce* than a plastic
one and/or we use more paper bags than we would have used plastic ones
there's still a net loss.

However I'm not at all sure of the relative energy costs of producing
paper and plastic bags. My gut feeling is that paper uses a fair
amount of energy (evaporating water and such) and paper bags might
well be more energy costly to produce. However plastic bags probably
use more unreplaceable resources (oil in particular).

Indeed. and that's important to me.

--
Chris Green

T i m wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:39:47 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:



The Germans have squads that search your bins that you put out, to
make sure you recycle all the right stuff.

"We hav vays of making it werk"

And a good thing too? It seems some folk will only 'bother' when
forced into it and even then get it wrong .. sigh

The number of times I have seen a large box full of mixed household
rubbish in the 'carboard only' skip, just because the box itself is
cardboard? And how difficult is it to flat pack a box *before* you use
it to completely fill the small wheely recycling bins at the local
council offices?

On the flip side I've been warned off *a* council recycling place
because it's not *my* local recycling place .. even though ecology
dictates I should use the one I'm going to be driving past (rather
than going in the opposite direction)?


How did they know?

MBQ