fred wrote in message ...
In article , fred writes
Anyone else effected, unimpressed or disinterested?
Wow, so many replies . . . .

I just wanted to canvass a bit of opinion and prompt a debate.

Good points made all round, I like Mary's suggestions the best and will
now be washing out and re-using all the bags I currently use for picking up
dog poop ;-)

Just post them (with contents) through the dog owners letter box and
let them re-use them. A polite note like "You dropped this" often
helps (to wind them up even more).

MBQ

"fred" wrote
| As I did say, I am a bag re-user, I just resent the 'tax' and
| the envirospeak BS.

Wouldn't the simplest thing be to flatten and fold all the B&Q bags neatly
and take them back for a refund on your next visit? Provided you don't
puncture them, they are perfectly suitable for resale.

Owain

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:37:01 -0000, "mich" wrote:


I am not impressed by such ecological friendly responses. And I dont believe
them either ( I go round too many supermarkets and DIY stores to be told
differently.)

getting soap box out and climbing on it

This issue really bugs me and so do the goody goodies who keep telling us to
re use carriers.

I am old enough to remember when my mother used to take a SHOPPING BAG with
her when she went shopping anywhere. When I was young, I too had one. I
had several in fact over the years, a string one which would rollup in your
pocket, a fold up one and proper giant job which would carry Mary Poppins
wardrobe in it! They lasted for years and years, were strong and carried
huge amounts if you got a big sized one.

I stopped using them - or rather I was STOPPED from using it by stores and
store detectives because every time I went into a store with my bag they
eyed me up with suspicion.
So NOW I REQUIRE THEM to provide me with a carrier FREE OF CHARGE EVERY
VISIT!!!!!

They created the situation. They need to find another way of solving it -
dont put it back onto me and dont charge me for a situation they created.

putting soap box away

Hi,

Why not take a thin shopping bag or carrier bag into the store rolled
or folded up? At least when you queue up for the checkout they will
have some confidence that you haven't bagged anything, rucksacks are a
favourite for creating suspicion.

Bear in mind they don't have the best pay or job security, they
probably know it's OK but if their boss would be suspicious they feel
they should act the same.

If I had really poor service from a DIY store I'd visit somewhere else
for my stuff then drop in on the way home. Then I'd parade round the
store advertising a bag full of stuff from their rival to the other
customers, and buy the cheapest item I could find.

cheers,
Pete.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:21:50 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists,

That depends whether you live downstream of the paper mill's effluent,
or in the watershed of some clear-cut piece of Washington state.
Paper can be quite a benign material, but it depends how you make it.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:21:50 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists,

That depends whether you live downstream of the paper mill's effluent,
or in the watershed of some clear-cut piece of Washington state.

Yes, I've seen both of them ... :-(

Paper can be quite a benign material, but it depends how you make it.

Indeed.

But is plastic ever benign - coming from non-renewable sources at the
moment?

Mary

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists,

That depends whether you live downstream of the paper mill's effluent,
or in the watershed of some clear-cut piece of Washington state.
Paper can be quite a benign material, but it depends how you make it.

I'd say the chemical plant needed to make plastic might well leave things
to be desired too?

--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:17:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I'd say the chemical plant needed to make plastic might well leave things
to be desired too?

Depends on your plastic. Polyethylene (every bag) is a low-impact
process, as an adjunct to the rest of oil refining. Makes a good fuel
afterwards too. OTOH, (U)PVC is vile stuff at both ends of the
lifecycle.

--
Smert' spamionam

Mary Fisher wrote:

But is plastic ever benign - coming from non-renewable sources at the
moment?

If it's long lasting and suitable for the application, yes it is.

For example polythene bottles are excellent for certain applications
because of their inertness (can't say inertia can you!). Any sort of
bottle has a raw materials cost, for certain applications plastic is
best even given that it consumes some oil.

--
Chris Green

MBQ wrote:

Just post them (with contents) through the dog owners letter box and
let them re-use them. A polite note like "You dropped this" often
helps (to wind them up even more).

What do you do with fox poo, post it down the fox earth?

--
Chris Green

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever
device is available.

Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists, and if used on
landfill has no more effect than leaves, etc?

Paper doesn't decompose very well in landfill because of the lack of
oxygen for the bacteria to breathe


--
geoff

wrote in message ...
Mary Fisher wrote:

But is plastic ever benign - coming from non-renewable sources at the
moment?

If it's long lasting and suitable for the application, yes it is.

For example polythene bottles are excellent for certain applications
because of their inertness (can't say inertia can you!).

Yes I can! Listen: "inershia".

See?

But I know what you mean ... :-)

Any sort of
bottle has a raw materials cost, for certain applications plastic is
best even given that it consumes some oil.

Any bottle - any item - has less impact on the environment if it's not
thrown away after one use.

Mary

--
Chris Green

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
They've been providing the stout brown paper bags for many years.

But their effect on the environment is only lessened if the customer
either re-cycles them or puts them in the recycle bin or whatever
device is available.

Hmm. Surely paper is as near a natural material as exists, and if used on
landfill has no more effect than leaves, etc?

Paper doesn't decompose very well in landfill because of the lack of
oxygen for the bacteria to breathe

Nor do leaves, They say.

But there are some anaerobic bacteria ...

Mary


--
geoff

wrote in message ...
MBQ wrote:

Just post them (with contents) through the dog owners letter box and
let them re-use them. A polite note like "You dropped this" often
helps (to wind them up even more).

What do you do with fox poo, post it down the fox earth?

Don't talk to me about fox grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Mary

--
Chris Green

On 3 Nov 2004 03:29:38 -0800, (MBQ) wrote:

T i m wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:39:47 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:

On the flip side I've been warned off *a* council recycling place
because it's not *my* local recycling place .. even though ecology
dictates I should use the one I'm going to be driving past (rather
than going in the opposite direction)?


How did they know?

Ah, well, before I learnt this was an 'issue' I answered the 'where do
you live' question truthfully (it was how I was brought up g).

I didn't consider that I was allowed to tip at one place 1/2 a mile
from my house but not at another place 1/2 mile from my house (but
'over the border')?

When I have been there since I just quote the name of a local (to
them) road ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On 3 Nov 2004 03:29:38 -0800, (MBQ) wrote:

T i m wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:39:47 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:

On the flip side I've been warned off *a* council recycling place
because it's not *my* local recycling place .. even though ecology
dictates I should use the one I'm going to be driving past (rather
than going in the opposite direction)?


How did they know?

Ah, well, before I learnt this was an 'issue' I answered the 'where do
you live' question truthfully (it was how I was brought up g).

I didn't consider that I was allowed to tip at one place 1/2 a mile
from my house but not at another place 1/2 mile from my house (but
'over the border')?

When I have been there since I just quote the name of a local (to
them) road ;-)

Son has had this problem too. It's ridiculous but the staff aren't to blame,
it's the council.

And since they're politicians (of a sort) they'll blind you with science
figures and statistics.

Mary

In message , T i m
writes
On 3 Nov 2004 03:29:38 -0800, (MBQ) wrote:

T i m wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:39:47 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:

On the flip side I've been warned off *a* council recycling place
because it's not *my* local recycling place .. even though ecology
dictates I should use the one I'm going to be driving past (rather
than going in the opposite direction)?


How did they know?

Ah, well, before I learnt this was an 'issue' I answered the 'where do
you live' question truthfully (it was how I was brought up g).

I didn't consider that I was allowed to tip at one place 1/2 a mile
from my house but not at another place 1/2 mile from my house (but
'over the border')?

When I have been there since I just quote the name of a local (to
them) road ;-)

I suppose it comes down to who's rates are paying for it dunnit
--
geoff

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:50:35 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

You mean weighing nails and not being able to buy twelve when you really
want fourteen?

I'm not sure why one would want to do this but I do like the
selective memory some have. The reality of those "high street" shops
was that they were _mostly_ manned by surly wretches whose response
to any request was "Nah, your the fifth person today wanting them -
don't have any - no call for them". The grocers sold a limited
range of time expired low quality produce and the bakers sold bread
you could sink a battleship with. If the quality of most of them had
been half what people fondly think they were they wouldn't all have
gone down the drain.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:53:53 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


it has been opined, that their degradation is carbon neutral. That's
not true of plastic even in thousands of years.

Why ever not?

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:09:00 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


As it happens, the charge for supermarket carriers - yours or anyone
else's - hardly affects us because we very rarely shop in them.

Don't suppose they can get many shelves in one :-).

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article , Owain owain41276
@stirlingcity.co.uk writes
"fred" wrote
| As I did say, I am a bag re-user, I just resent the 'tax' and
| the envirospeak BS.

Wouldn't the simplest thing be to flatten and fold all the B&Q bags neatly
and take them back for a refund on your next visit? Provided you don't
puncture them, they are perfectly suitable for resale.

Owain

Like it :-), but think I'll wait for 29 days & take them back on the 30 day
money back promise, 'sorry, they're not what I'm looking for'.
--
fred

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:50:35 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

You mean weighing nails and not being able to buy twelve when you really
want fourteen?

I'm not sure why one would want to do this but I do like the
selective memory some have. The reality of those "high street" shops
was that they were _mostly_ manned by surly wretches whose response
to any request was "Nah, your the fifth person today wanting them -
don't have any - no call for them". The grocers sold a limited
range of time expired low quality produce and the bakers sold bread
you could sink a battleship with. If the quality of most of them had
been half what people fondly think they were they wouldn't all have
gone down the drain.

And you tell kids ...

Well, I can weigh out a dozen nails at my local hardware store

and then haggle over the price

.... and get a discount


--
geoff

Mary Fisher wrote:
wrote in message ...

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

If a paper bag uses more energy and raw materials to make it than
a plastic bag then it's going to do more damage to the environment
than a plastic bag even if it degrades into compost or whatever.


er - I didn't say that they were preferable to plastic, just that HB had
been using them for years ...

If they are put into landfill they degrade more swiftly than plastic bags
and, it has been opined, that their degradation is carbon neutral. That's
not true of plastic even in thousands of years.

I strongly doubt that the degradation is carbon neutral, the main
degradation process of organic matter on landfills produces approximately
equal parts of methane and CO2. Although this is not as bad as it appears,
(despite methane being far worse than CO2 for global warming),as in any
decent landfill site the methane is harvested and used to generate
electricity, and gets clasiffied as green/renewable energy as well :-)

So what we realy need is to get more organic materials into landfills to
generate more methane/electricity from this nice green source. ;-)

Plastic bags on the other hand are the scourge of any landfill operator that
I know, with special teams having to be employed to go around collecting
them on site as they get blown everywhere .

cheers

David

wrote in message ...
Mary Fisher wrote:

If paper bags are composted it's largely done by life forms, they don't cost
energy. The resulting composted material contributes - in our case - to our
food. If we grow our own vegetables (and eggs) we are saving energy in terms
of food miles, shoe leather, carrier bags of any kind ...

But the 'energy' cost of any sort of bag has very little to do with
how it's disposed of. OK, so you're getting a little more back from
paper bags than you would from plastic ones but I reckon it's pretty
marginal. If the bag takes more energy to *produce* than a plastic
one and/or we use more paper bags than we would have used plastic ones
there's still a net loss.

However I'm not at all sure of the relative energy costs of producing
paper and plastic bags. My gut feeling is that paper uses a fair
amount of energy (evaporating water and such) and paper bags might
well be more energy costly to produce. However plastic bags probably
use more unreplaceable resources (oil in particular).

But if the paper bag takes more energy to produce and that energy came
from oil then your probably still better with a plastic bag?

MBQ

MBQ wrote:
wrote in message ...
Mary Fisher wrote:


However I'm not at all sure of the relative energy costs of producing
paper and plastic bags. My gut feeling is that paper uses a fair
amount of energy (evaporating water and such) and paper bags might
well be more energy costly to produce. However plastic bags probably
use more unreplaceable resources (oil in particular).

But if the paper bag takes more energy to produce and that energy came
from oil then your probably still better with a plastic bag?

Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
MBQ wrote:
wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:


However I'm not at all sure of the relative energy costs of producing
paper and plastic bags. My gut feeling is that paper uses a fair
amount of energy (evaporating water and such) and paper bags might
well be more energy costly to produce. However plastic bags probably
use more unreplaceable resources (oil in particular).

But if the paper bag takes more energy to produce and that energy came
from oil then your probably still better with a plastic bag?

Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

I'm lost ... :-)

--
Chris Green

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:51:30 GMT, raden wrote:


I didn't consider that I was allowed to tip at one place 1/2 a mile
from my house but not at another place 1/2 mile from my house (but
'over the border')?

When I have been there since I just quote the name of a local (to
them) road ;-)

I suppose it comes down to who's rates are paying for it dunnit

It seems to sigh .. *I* would have thought that sound ecological
sense might prevail but no .. it's 'money' ..?

Talking of sense .. one of my mates runs a gun shop and another a
cycle shop. Both produce a large quantity of cardboard waste but can't
have it collected by the council because it 'commercial' waste? They
are even happy to pay to get it 'recycled' but it seems there is no
facility for this (via the Council anyway)?

But they send a crew round once a week collecting the dribs and drabs
of household cardboard waste .. ?

If they are collecting cardboard to actually 'get' carboard to recycle
then they could fill their truck in one go by visiting my two mates
.... less wages, less fuel, better return? Don't suppose they are
though .. just another form of lip service to ecology .. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:53:53 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


it has been opined, that their degradation is carbon neutral. That's
not true of plastic even in thousands of years.

Why ever not?

Because the energy to make the oil by living organisms happened millions of
years ago.

Mary

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:02:49 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

I'm lost ... :-)

Welcome to my place Mary ;-)

T i m

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:50:35 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message

Or, we could have small shops in the high street selling all those
little bits n bobs like they used to and serving the stuff up in paper
bags and .. ah .. ;-(

You mean weighing nails and not being able to buy twelve when you really
want fourteen?

I'm not sure why one would want to do this

We need an irony emoticon.

but I do like the
selective memory some have. The reality of those "high street" shops
was that they were _mostly_ manned by surly wretches whose response
to any request was "Nah, your the fifth person today wanting them -
don't have any - no call for them".

That might have been your experience, it wasn't mine.

And here no-one said 'Nah'. If they had to reply in the negative it was
'Nay'.

The grocers sold a limited
range of time expired

? There weren't sell-by dates then.

low quality produce and the bakers sold bread
you could sink a battleship with.

Not true - again in my experience. I think you've been very unfortunate.
Bread from the bakers was a special treat when Mum hadn't baked. There was a
far greater range, even during the war, than she could make.

It was real bread, made before the Chorleywood process devised a method of
making water stand up*

If the quality of most of them had
been half what people fondly think they were they wouldn't all have
gone down the drain.

Well, they haven't in my area!

Except that local hardware shops have no option but to sell pre-packed
screws in, say twelves when you want fourteen. They are still cheaper than
the sheds and can (usually) advise when customers aren't sure what they
want/need.

We go to specialist screw shops when we want special supplies. Most
'small'people don't even know about them, which is a shame. Mind you, they
might think it easier to go to a shed ...

Mary
* not my saying, Elizabeth David's

Ole Fishcake wrote:

Any bottle - any item - has less impact on the environment if it's not
thrown away after one use.

And that's why we use plastic bottles over and over again with various
cordials, cooled in the fridge.;-)

Oh, and why our house / loft / garage is full of handy stuff I can't
throw away .. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:51:30 GMT, raden wrote:


I didn't consider that I was allowed to tip at one place 1/2 a mile
from my house but not at another place 1/2 mile from my house (but
'over the border')?

When I have been there since I just quote the name of a local (to
them) road ;-)

I suppose it comes down to who's rates are paying for it dunnit

It seems to sigh .. *I* would have thought that sound ecological
sense might prevail but no .. it's 'money' ..?

Talking of sense .. one of my mates runs a gun shop and another a
cycle shop. Both produce a large quantity of cardboard waste but can't
have it collected by the council because it 'commercial' waste? They
are even happy to pay to get it 'recycled' but it seems there is no
facility for this (via the Council anyway)?

But they send a crew round once a week collecting the dribs and drabs
of household cardboard waste .. ?

If they are collecting cardboard to actually 'get' carboard to recycle
then they could fill their truck in one go by visiting my two mates
... less wages, less fuel, better return? Don't suppose they are
though .. just another form of lip service to ecology .. ;-(

All the best ..

A care home near me has the same problem, there was a bit in the paper a few
weeks back, nice picture of unhappy looking chap holding an empty box with a
pile of newspapers next to him.
He generates a lot of waste paper, empty milk cartons etc in a week (all the
stuff the council want to meet their targets) and wondered why the recycling
box wasn't being emptied, the operatives told him that it was trade waste
and couldn't be collected. He argued his case with the council and was told
that rules are rules and the perfectly good recyclable stuff from the home
has to go to landfill.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:02:49 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

I'm lost ... :-)

Welcome to my place Mary ;-)

I've been angling for that invitation for ages :-)

Mary

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Ole Fishcake wrote:

Any bottle - any item - has less impact on the environment if it's not
thrown away after one use.

And that's why we use plastic bottles over and over again with various
cordials, cooled in the fridge.;-)

Good. So do we. And I've even started making yogurt so that I can use all
those stored Rachels pots.

Oh, and why our house / loft / garage is full of handy stuff I can't
throw away .. ;-(

Ours are like that too. And we've had several clearouts :-(

All the best ..

T i m

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:22:44 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:02:49 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

I'm lost ... :-)

Welcome to my place Mary ;-)

I've been angling for that invitation for ages :-)

You took the bait then - I knew he'd have you hooked eventually



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , T i m
writes
Ole Fishcake wrote:

Any bottle - any item - has less impact on the environment if it's not
thrown away after one use.

And that's why we use plastic bottles over and over again with various
cordials, cooled in the fridge.;-)

Oh, and why our house / loft / garage is full of handy stuff I can't
throw away .. ;-(

Now you come and explain that to my wife

--
geoff

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:22:44 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:02:49 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Er, isn't that what I was saying? Or were you replying to a post
above mine? Ah, no, I see you were commenting on my last sentence,
yes, I quite agree.

I'm lost ... :-)

Welcome to my place Mary ;-)

I've been angling for that invitation for ages :-)

You took the bait then - I knew he'd have you hooked eventually

He said welcome to his place, not his plaice ...

Mary



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:01:00 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


That might have been your experience, it wasn't mine.

Sheltered upbringing is no excuse :-)

And here no-one said 'Nah'. If they had to reply in the negative it was
'Nay'.

No it was something else but one would not wish to use it in public.

The grocers sold a limited
range of time expired

? There weren't sell-by dates then.

Indeed not, but as one of my holiday jobs (while studying A Level
Biology) was scraping green slime off bacon for a local butcher to
sell to a captive audience it didn't require too much skill to know
it was well beyond one had it existed.

low quality produce and the bakers sold bread
you could sink a battleship with.

Not true - again in my experience. I think you've been very unfortunate.

No, merely widely experienced.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:53:24 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Because the energy to make the oil by living organisms happened millions of
years ago.

Carbon gets time expired?


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Andy Hall" wrote
| Welcome to my place Mary ;-)
| I've been angling for that invitation for ages :-)
| You took the bait then - I knew he'd have you hooked eventually

If you drink his German wine you'll have had 'ock.

Owain

"chris French" wrote in message
...

My favourite plastic bag tale was about 10 years ago in a large M&S in
London. I bought a small item, a pack of socks or somesuch, when I paid
the checkout person wanted to put it a small plastic bag, I said I
didn't need a bag (I didn't have bag, but it would go in my pocket).

CP: 'I have too'

Me: I don't need one'

etc.

CP ' You need a bag to show you bought it here'

ME ' So if I put something a bag it means I've bought it...That's what
the receipt is for.....'

In the end she insisted in putting it in the bag, I let her, then took
it out and gave her the bag back - she looked so ****ed off.......

RAOTFLMAO!!!

That is exactly what I would do now, and in the future.

Thanks for that

Dave