On 25 Feb 2021 at 19:38:20 GMT, "alan_m" wrote:

On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:

The most persuasive argument is that the chance for people to spread flu
by dragging their sickbed into their workplace has gone. Proof that a
slightly more generous approach to sick pay could have a dramatic
beneficial effect on public health generally. Not that any amount of
proof can challenge the dogma that you must work till you die.


I worked for a company that offered 6 months full pay for sickness and
that didn't stop the spread colds and flu around the office/factory -
possibly because it is already passed on before full symptoms appear.

12 months full pay at a place I worked. Didn't stop people coming in and
spreading whatever they had in our open offices.

It was the sort of job (college teacher) where the work generated by being off
sick made it not straightforward. I had 3 colds 19/20 xmas.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:00:39 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

vaccination does not give total immmunity

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to them
?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with Nigel
Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer and
anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to be
allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,

That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.#

for once Rod is 100% right here

a vaccine passport has to have a system that allows for the people who
cannot be vaccinated (or don't need to be because they have recently been
infected with the disease)

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with Nigel
Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to be
allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective

On 26/02/2021 08:52, charles wrote:
In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

vaccination does not give total immmunity

Indeed not, not with most viruses BUT it does seem to keep people from
dying - the body reacts earlier and to more effect.

People will get jabbed until the case rate in the hospitals is
manageable and then lockdown will be eased and we will see what happens.

If cases and deaths spike again that's a clear sign that the vaccine is
ineffective.

We will see.

--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

probably because all the people who actually died of flu were diagnosed
a dying of Covid

The deaths from Covid figures only apply to those who have tested
positive.

there are reports of that not being the case

Of course there will be. Care to speculate on the percentage? Enough to
make a meaningful difference to the published figures?




--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/02/2021 09:08, tim... wrote:
a vaccine passport has to have a system that allows for the people who
cannot be vaccinated (or don't need to be because they have recently
been infected with the disease)


Right.

The same as we issue driving licenses to people who are medically unfit
to take a test?



--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:47:31 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 25/02/2021 23:09, Steve Walker wrote:
On 25/02/2021 22:26, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/02/2021 19:00, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:06:27 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

Why do you target someone else to pay taxes. Is there any reason why
you don't volunteer to pay more tax?

How do you know I don't, pray tell ?

If you do volunteer then you're unique. :-)

I well suspect I pay more tax that I need to but that's out of
laziness, and where the cost of paying someone to go over my accounts
is greater than the potential saving.

Similarly here, though not so much on a cost basis, as an effort basis.
The potential saving is there, but is just not worth the extra effort.
Much better to keep life simple.

It's also about sleeping at night without fear from an HMRC
investigation. Over the years I've had two. Thankfully both ended well.

I accidentally didn't pay any tax for about ten years, still not sure what
actually went wrong.

On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should - however
odd that advice might seem.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 26/02/2021 11:30, jon wrote:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:47:31 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 25/02/2021 23:09, Steve Walker wrote:
On 25/02/2021 22:26, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/02/2021 19:00, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:06:27 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

Why do you target someone else to pay taxes. Is there any reason why
you don't volunteer to pay more tax?

How do you know I don't, pray tell ?

If you do volunteer then you're unique. :-)

I well suspect I pay more tax that I need to but that's out of
laziness, and where the cost of paying someone to go over my accounts
is greater than the potential saving.

Similarly here, though not so much on a cost basis, as an effort basis.
The potential saving is there, but is just not worth the extra effort.
Much better to keep life simple.

It's also about sleeping at night without fear from an HMRC
investigation. Over the years I've had two. Thankfully both ended well.

I accidentally didn't pay any tax for about ten years, still not sure what
actually went wrong.

yeah. I could claim a bit back but all that would happen is that instead
of HMRC getting it my accountant would, and he gets enough already.



--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should - however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

On 26/02/2021 11:36, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:28:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The vaccine tickles your immune system, making it a bit more alert. That
vastly improves *but does not eliminate* the possibility of catching it
badly enough to need hospitalization.

What I suspect will be much more significant over the coming months is
the emerging evidence that vaccinated people that do catch Covid catch it
much less severely than otherwise.

Of course.
Then the anti vaxxers will say 'that is because all the vulnerable
people died in the first wave'

The trouble is that very few people study philosophy, even fewer
*understand* it and almost no one applies it to real life problems like
this.

It is as impossible to prove that the vaccine *is* working as to prove
that it is ineffective.

We a
- practising social distancing
- wearing PPE routinely
- running at vastly higher levels of personal hygiene
- getting vaccinated
- being locked down
- developing natural immunity
- killing off the vulnerable

Only if case rates were *still going up*, would we be able to claim that
the vaccine (and all the other measures) was *ineffective*.

As it is, case and death rates are coming down but we have no way of
knowing ultimately how much was due to the vaccine.

And as animal testing is largely banned,. no way to find out, by doing
tests, either.

What can be measured is some kind of antibody response. But the chain of
reasoning from that to death and infection rates is still not clear cut.

People long for the simple minded security of Boolean logic. It
works/doesn't work. They long for absolute proof,. certainty and
irrefutable 'facts'.

Sadly all science offers - and there are fundamental philosophical
reasons why that is so (cf 'Problem of Induction') - are *models* that
more, or less, *work*.

And when people insist on being given 'facts' they get all disappointed
when the answer is 'we don't have them' and blame a government which has
been hoist by its own petard of claiming omniscience in matters of
social justice and 'protecting the peepul' in order to acquire its most
heartfelt desire, the omnipotence of a centralised unelected power
structure that can do anything it wants. Like the EU.

In the end its Darwin in action. People will make simple binary choices
and live or die by them, in more or less complete ignorance of the
reasons they should be examining.

That is deep social conservationism - Darwinism in action. For whatever
reason some people get the game of life right, and they then teach what
they did as dogma to their children. If its sound advice based on
something real, that advice hangs around a long time. If its bad advice
that just worked once, their children suffer, and die.

Forces that seek to overturn that social conservatism - that huge body
of consensual knowledge of 'stuff that worked for me dad, so its good
enough for me' by hailing 'progressive' 'social justice' '
modernisation' 'new liberalism' etc etc run the risk - nay are
*guaranteed* of - massively destroying society.

But of course, that is why they do it.

Marxism is all about destroying what worked for years in the
pathetically devout certainty that something better will emerge.

In all cases it has been arguably far far worse.



--
€œThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

--
*Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 25/02/2021 22:31, Fredxx wrote:

Hence why excess deaths also became a useful indicator for the spread of
Covid.

Surely excess deaths to measure of covid deaths is only meaningful if
the rest of the NHS was working the same way as in previous years? If
there is a much reduced healthcare for other conditions the figure could
be expected to rise accordingly.

And that is the point. There is plenty evidence some have died due to the
effect of Covid on the NHS, etc, but not from Covid itself. But it is
still Covid responsible for that death, if it has slowed down treating,
etc.

--
*I'm reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can't put it down.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

tim... wrote:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-

latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with
anti-vaxxer and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them
visiting pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective

Look at the "two-jab" for inspiration.

The first jab is "hey, wake up in there".

The second jab is "have you seen this before ? OK. React vigorously."

Whether your body is trained by a second jab, or is
trained by the real virus entering the body and
training you, the asymptotic result is you're (gradually)
making better responses to it. You may get sick. But
not as sick as the last time. Or not as sick as ever.

Our bare minimum definition of success is "keep people
out of the intensive care unit and off those ventilators".
That's a start. For all the progress we've made on
improving the ability of people to survive, they're
still using ventilators. That hasn't stopped.

But eventually, we have to keep COVID out of people, period,
because look at the mess it's making of the "long haulers".
People who have survived the virus, who are mentally
confused and don't seem to be improving on their own.
It damages more than lungs and toes... And long term,
we can't afford to be generating a large pool of invalids.

In that sense, "survival" is not the same as with seasonal flu.
With seasonal flu, say ten weeks later, you're usually your
old self again. That's not necessarily the case with COVID.
Yeah. you're alive. But you're not yourself, either. Most
of the long haulers interviewed, are concerned they'll
never be fixed properly (which might well be true).

So long term, we need to do a better job than just
"keeping people alive but miserable". Preventing the
health care system from being crushed, that's the "low bar"
definition of success. And that seems to be what the
vaccination gives so far.

There was yet another variant in the news yesterday.
Properties - unknown. Not enough data yet.

Paul

On 26 Feb 2021 at 12:49:39 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

Indeed, along with the fact that the vaccine won't be effective for all (but
hopefully most).

I'm not sure what there's to fear if you've had the virus - does this give
decent vaccine-like immunity from all variants?

--
Cheers, Rob

On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 5:02:50 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

probably because all the people who actually died of flu were diagnosed
a dying of Covid
The deaths from Covid figures only apply to those who have tested positive.
Within the last 28 days, even if you were run over

On 26/02/2021 15:26, Jonathan wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 5:02:50 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

probably because all the people who actually died of flu were diagnosed
a dying of Covid
The deaths from Covid figures only apply to those who have tested positive.
Within the last 28 days, even if you were run over

Bu not from those who died of it and never even got tested...it works
both ways



--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
Plus the long term effects. Already I see there's a "long covid" being
discussed.

I don't personally know of many who've had Covid. But two I do know have
had long lasting after effects - even although they weren't hospitalised.
Both in their 50s. One appears to be possibly serious - damage to heart
and kidneys.

--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should -
however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over 65s.

"Paul" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with Nigel
Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to be
allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective

Look at the "two-jab" for inspiration.

The first jab is "hey, wake up in there".

The second jab is "have you seen this before ? OK. React vigorously."

That utterly mangles the real story. The first jab with the
mRNA vaccines sees the body react very vigorously, in fact
much more vigorously than infection with the virus does.

And the reason a half first dose works better with the
Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccination is because the body
has already developed lots of antibodys to the
chimpanzee adenovirus it uses with the first full jab.

Whether your body is trained by a second jab, or is trained by the real
virus entering the body and
training you, the asymptotic result is you're (gradually)
making better responses to it. You may get sick. But
not as sick as the last time. Or not as sick as ever.

Mangled again.

Our bare minimum definition of success is "keep people
out of the intensive care unit and off those ventilators".
That's a start. For all the progress we've made on
improving the ability of people to survive, they're
still using ventilators. That hasn't stopped.

In fact they are used much less than they were initially.

But eventually, we have to keep COVID out of people, period,
because look at the mess it's making of the "long haulers".
People who have survived the virus, who are mentally
confused and don't seem to be improving on their own.
It damages more than lungs and toes... And long term,
we can't afford to be generating a large pool of invalids.

But its only a small subset that get long covid and its
not at all clear if vaccination has any effect on that yet.

In that sense, "survival" is not the same as with seasonal flu. With
seasonal flu, say ten weeks later, you're usually your old self again.
That's not necessarily the case with COVID. Yeah. you're alive. But you're
not yourself, either. Most of the long haulers interviewed, are concerned
they'll never be fixed properly (which might well be true).

So long term, we need to do a better job than just
"keeping people alive but miserable". Preventing the health care system
from being crushed, that's the "low bar" definition of success. And that
seems to be what the vaccination gives so far.

It is also clear that for most, a covid infection is no
worse than the common cold, just a minor nuisance.

There was yet another variant in the news yesterday.
Properties - unknown. Not enough data yet.

But no evidence that its any worse than the dozens
of variants we have seen already. There are only 3
that are serious worse.

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 26 Feb 2021 at 12:49:39 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"

wrote:

In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

Indeed, along with the fact that the vaccine won't be effective for all
(but
hopefully most).

I'm not sure what there's to fear if you've had the virus - does this give
decent vaccine-like immunity from all variants?

That isnt clear yet. Its not even completely clear if you
can get it more than once with the one variant or whether
those that have appeared to get it more than once never
actually got rid of it completely the first time.

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 15:08:47 +0000, RJH wrote:

I'm not sure what there's to fear if you've had the virus - does this
give decent vaccine-like immunity from all variants?

I think that's one of the great unanswered questions at the moment.

Plus the long term effects. Already I see there's a "long covid" being
discussed.

Overall, I think humanity has fluffed this chance
to learn from dealing with a pandemic.

Plenty havent.

We'll know soon enough when the next one comes along.

That remains to be seen.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 05:43:21 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 26/02/2021 18:55, Fred wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown
that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should -
however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over 65s.

Which does not mean that it does not work, just that for safety during
testing, they stuck to younger people. The chances of it not working in
older people or being dangerous are very slim (they are still human),
but it has not been proven to be as effective.

Still worth having as any protection helps and there are insufficient
alternatives to vaccinate everyone with other vaccines.

It is looking like regular vaccination may be necessary anyway, so at
least partial protection and then later re-vaccination is better than
just waiting.

In article , Steve Walker
wrote:
On 26/02/2021 18:55, Fred wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on
the grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown
that's all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans
in order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel
to protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should -
however odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over
65s.

Which does not mean that it does not work, just that for safety during
testing, they stuck to younger people. The chances of it not working in
older people or being dangerous are very slim (they are still human),
but it has not been proven to be as effective.

Glad to know I'm still human. I had mine 4 weeka ago and, so far, am still
around without any side effects.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 26/02/2021 21:46, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/02/2021 18:55, Fred wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on
the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown
that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should
- however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over
65s.

Which does not mean that it does not work, just that for safety during
testing, they stuck to younger people. The chances of it not working in
older people or being dangerous are very slim (they are still human),
but it has not been proven to be as effective.

Still worth having as any protection helps and there are insufficient
alternatives to vaccinate everyone with other vaccines.

It is looking like regular vaccination may be necessary anyway, so at
least partial protection and then later re-vaccination is better than
just waiting.
Merkel is not parrotimg scientific advice, she is spinning political
propaganda

And even the German newspapers know it

And her scientific background means so does she


--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 26/02/2021 13:01, Paul wrote:
And long term,
we can't afford to be generating a large pool of invalids.

Don't worry Paul. In the UK there is an inexaustible
supply of 'free' m0tability cars. The car manufacturers
and dealers cannot wait to supply them if all the big
banners in many franchised dealer car showrooms are
anything to go by.

On 25/02/2021 22:19, bert wrote:

Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

Several things;

Vaccination will not necessarily prevent you being infected, all it can
do it improve the bodies response, making it faster and more effective.
The aim being to prevent serious illness, hospitalisation, long term
complications and/or death. The immune response can only do its thing,
once it has already been "invaded" by the pathogen. So is still likely
that a small window of time could remain where you could transmit the
infection on. Hence vaccinated people tooling about like they are now
captain Teflon are a liability for everyone else.

Mutations are a continued and natural part of the lifecycle of a virus.
Since mutations are random, a few will improve the virus' ability to
survive and reproduce, but many will lower it. Normally when there is
already a dominant and successful strain in broad circulation, even
potentially successful mutations may still not actually succeed since
too many of the hosts they reach already have a sufficiently similar
infection from a another strain[1], that they can't compete.

This does however make the start of a vaccination program a particularly
risky one since it will drive down the reproductive rate of the current
dominant strains, giving more scope for variants to gain traction. If
these also happen to be less well targeted by the vaccine, then you can
quickly find yourself back at square one. The way to minimise the rate
of production of viable mutations, is to reduce the number of infected
hosts.

That means that all the non vaccine protective measures need to stay in
place for longer than may at first glance appear necessary in order to
keep driving the overall number of infections down as low as possible.


[1] It has been demonstrated that it's possible to contract two
different COVID 19 variants at the same time, although this is thought
be very rare.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 18:55, Fred wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on
the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown
that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should -
however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over
65s.

Which does not mean that it does not work,

Yes, but it does mean that it makes more sense
to use the Pfizer which was tested on those.

just that for safety during testing, they stuck to younger people. The
chances of it not working in older people or being dangerous are very slim
(they are still human),

But do have known deterioration in the immune response.
Thats why they get a stronger dose with flu vaccinations.

but it has not been proven to be as effective.

But the Pfizer has, so it makes sense to use that on those instead.

Still worth having as any protection helps

But it makes more sense to use the Pfizer on
those and that is precisely what they have done.

and there are insufficient alternatives to vaccinate everyone with other
vaccines.

We arent talking about everyone, just the over 65s.

Australia has done the same thing, use both
for the groups they are most appropriate for.

It is looking like regular vaccination may be necessary anyway,

Thats not known yet.

so at least partial protection and then later re-vaccination is better
than just waiting.

We arent talking about just waiting, we are talking
about using the Pfizer vaccine instead for that group.

On 26/02/2021 16:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
Plus the long term effects. Already I see there's a "long covid" being
discussed.

I don't personally know of many who've had Covid. But two I do know have
had long lasting after effects - even although they weren't hospitalised.
Both in their 50s. One appears to be possibly serious - damage to heart
and kidneys.

I had a rather sobering chat with a former neighbour the other day.
(fit, early 50's). She said that she and her husband got it last year,
and they probably passed it onto her mum. Hubby recovered ok, but her
mum died, and unknown to her at the time, she suffered quite serious
cardiac damage. That only manifested when one day she went into cardiac
arrest without any warning! Fortunately she was one of the very few to
survive that outside of hospital, because she was with her husband when
it happened, and he knew how to do effective CPR, worked out what was
going on quickly enough, and was able to keep her alive until the
ambulance got there.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote
bert wrote

Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

Several things;

Vaccination will not necessarily prevent you being infected, all it can do
it improve the bodies response, making it faster and more effective. The
aim being to prevent serious illness, hospitalisation, long term
complications and/or death.

In fact thats true of many current vaccines for other viruses.

Not all tho.

The immune response can only do its thing, once it has already been
"invaded" by the pathogen. So is still likely that a small window of time
could remain where you could transmit the infection on. Hence vaccinated
people tooling about like they are now captain Teflon are a liability for
everyone else.

Mutations are a continued and natural part of the lifecycle of a virus.
Since mutations are random, a few will improve the virus' ability to
survive and reproduce, but many will lower it. Normally when there is
already a dominant and successful strain in broad circulation, even
potentially successful mutations may still not actually succeed since too
many of the hosts they reach already have a sufficiently similar infection
from a another strain[1], that they can't compete.

This does however make the start of a vaccination program a particularly
risky one since it will drive down the reproductive rate of the current
dominant strains, giving more scope for variants to gain traction.

Thats not accurate given that there is no reason why the non current
dominant strains should be less susceptible to the vaccine.

If these also happen to be less well targeted by the vaccine,

No reason why they should be.

then you can quickly find yourself back at square one. The way to minimise
the rate of production of viable mutations, is to reduce the number of
infected hosts.

That means that all the non vaccine protective measures need to stay in
place for longer than may at first glance appear necessary in order to
keep driving the overall number of infections down as low as possible.

[1] It has been demonstrated that it's possible to contract two different
COVID 19 variants at the same time, although this is thought be very rare.

Very rare indeed in fact given only a handful in hundreds
of millions infected now, likely more than a billion.

On 26/02/2021 15:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2021 15:26, Jonathan wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 5:02:50 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

probably because all the people who actually died of flu were diagnosed
a dying of Covid
The deaths from Covid figures only apply to those who have tested
positive.

Within the last 28 days, even if you were run over

A death certificate will need to include a medical assessment of the
cause of death. Clear cases of Trauma would not usually be recorded as
covid related even if there were a positive diagnosis.

Bu not from those who died of it and never even got tested...it works
both ways

We keep several different sets of stats in this country (PHE keep one
set, and the ONS another).

Some record people who die within number of days of a positive test - so
those will include some who died "with" covid rather than necessarily
from it. However we also keep stats on those who have died where COVID
is mentioned as a contributory cause on the death certificate.

Excess deaths compared to a baseline is yet another way of making an
assessment.

This expands on it quite well:

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov...vid-19-deaths/

So basically, its complicated.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 26/02/2021 16:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
Plus the long term effects. Already I see there's a "long covid" being
discussed.

I don't personally know of many who've had Covid. But two I do know have
had long lasting after effects - even although they weren't hospitalised.
Both in their 50s. One appears to be possibly serious - damage to heart
and kidneys.

I had a rather sobering chat with a former neighbour the other day.
(fit, early 50's). She said that she and her husband got it last year,
and they probably passed it onto her mum. Hubby recovered ok, but her
mum died, and unknown to her at the time, she suffered quite serious
cardiac damage. That only manifested when one day she went into cardiac
arrest without any warning! Fortunately she was one of the very few to
survive that outside of hospital, because she was with her husband when
it happened, and he knew how to do effective CPR, worked out what was
going on quickly enough, and was able to keep her alive until the
ambulance got there.

That's why this is not a case of "seasonal flu".

The long haulers (people "damaged" long term by COVID)
are getting to be a problem.

Some of the problem is related to blood clots
(similar to deep vein thrombosis, you could
have a heart attack or stroke, any time that a
large clot breaks loose). That's one of the reasons
low-dose heparin is administered here, to emergency cases.
To try to reduce the size of clots. Maybe the whole
time you're at hospital, you're on heparin.

And it's possible brain tissue is affected.

https://www.henryford.com/blog/2020/...-and-brain-fog

I don't know how much help doctors can give us
with stuff like this. A couple of days ago, I saw
mention of a "center" for collecting data on long haulers,
so they can have treatment plans to offer for the
various symptoms. I would not be expecting any miracles
though. I think the doctors are doing good work, finding
substances to administer during disease progression,
but if you take collateral damage along the way, you're basically
on your own on that.

Paul

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:45:54 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:04:08 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 03:31:58 -0500, Paul wrote:

Some of the problem is related to blood clots (similar to deep vein
thrombosis, you could have a heart attack or stroke, any time that a
large clot breaks loose). That's one of the reasons low-dose heparin is
administered here, to emergency cases.
To try to reduce the size of clots. Maybe the whole time you're at
hospital, you're on heparin.

Perhaps I'm a bit ahead of the game, because I'm on apixaban anyway!

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article , charles
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

vaccination does not give total immmunity

Very close though in this case, and if not again it makes the case for
vaccine certificates illogical. You having had the vaccine are not
totally immune so could collect the virus from someone else also
vaccinated but not totally immune.
--
bert

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 26/02/2021 08:52, charles wrote:
In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?
vaccination does not give total immmunity

Indeed not, not with most viruses BUT it does seem to keep people from
dying - the body reacts earlier and to more effect.

People will get jabbed until the case rate in the hospitals is
manageable and then lockdown will be eased and we will see what happens.

If cases and deaths spike again that's a clear sign that the vaccine is
ineffective.

We will see.

Another aspect is that vaccines trigger variants in the virus.
--
bert