In article , tim...
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it
to them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with
anti-vaxxer and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them
visiting pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with
Farage's name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective


So you are not protected from someone else who is not vaccinated for
whatever reason.
--
bert

In article , RJH
writes
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should - however
odd that advice might seem.

But it was approved for all age groups by the EU regulatory body
--
bert

In article , Paul
writes
tim... wrote:
"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it
to them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with
anti-vaxxer and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated
to be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them
visiting pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with
Farage's name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?
that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective

Look at the "two-jab" for inspiration.

The first jab is "hey, wake up in there".

The second jab is "have you seen this before ? OK. React vigorously."

Whether your body is trained by a second jab, or is
trained by the real virus entering the body and
training you, the asymptotic result is you're (gradually)
making better responses to it. You may get sick. But
not as sick as the last time. Or not as sick as ever.

Our bare minimum definition of success is "keep people
out of the intensive care unit and off those ventilators".
That's a start. For all the progress we've made on
improving the ability of people to survive, they're
still using ventilators. That hasn't stopped.

But eventually, we have to keep COVID out of people, period,
because look at the mess it's making of the "long haulers".
People who have survived the virus, who are mentally
confused and don't seem to be improving on their own.
It damages more than lungs and toes... And long term,
we can't afford to be generating a large pool of invalids.

In that sense, "survival" is not the same as with seasonal flu.
With seasonal flu, say ten weeks later, you're usually your
old self again. That's not necessarily the case with COVID.
Yeah. you're alive. But you're not yourself, either. Most
of the long haulers interviewed, are concerned they'll
never be fixed properly (which might well be true).

So long term, we need to do a better job than just
"keeping people alive but miserable". Preventing the
health care system from being crushed, that's the "low bar"
definition of success. And that seems to be what the
vaccination gives so far.

There was yet another variant in the news yesterday.
Properties - unknown. Not enough data yet.

Paul
Would that be the Welsh one named after a famous station.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if that
is by choice then it's their risk.
--
bert

In article , John
Rumm writes
On 25/02/2021 22:19, bert wrote:

Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

Several things;

Vaccination will not necessarily prevent you being infected, all it can
do it improve the bodies response, making it faster and more effective.
The aim being to prevent serious illness, hospitalisation, long term
complications and/or death. The immune response can only do its thing,
once it has already been "invaded" by the pathogen. So is still likely
that a small window of time could remain where you could transmit the
infection on. Hence vaccinated people tooling about like they are now
captain Teflon are a liability for everyone else.

Mutations are a continued and natural part of the lifecycle of a virus.
Since mutations are random, a few will improve the virus' ability to
survive and reproduce, but many will lower it. Normally when there is
already a dominant and successful strain in broad circulation, even
potentially successful mutations may still not actually succeed since
too many of the hosts they reach already have a sufficiently similar
infection from a another strain[1], that they can't compete.

This does however make the start of a vaccination program a
particularly risky one since it will drive down the reproductive rate
of the current dominant strains, giving more scope for variants to gain
traction. If these also happen to be less well targeted by the vaccine,
then you can quickly find yourself back at square one. The way to
minimise the rate of production of viable mutations, is to reduce the
number of infected hosts.

That means that all the non vaccine protective measures need to stay in
place for longer than may at first glance appear necessary in order to
keep driving the overall number of infections down as low as possible.


[1] It has been demonstrated that it's possible to contract two
different COVID 19 variants at the same time, although this is thought
be very rare.


None of this supports vaccine passports, rather the opposite.
--
bert

In article , Steve Walker
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:24, Fredxx wrote:
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with
anti-vaxxer and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,

That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.
Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them
visiting pubs and shops.
As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

The simple answer would be to accept that small risk to others and
issue exemption certificates to those unable to have the vaccines -
properly policed, unlike the mask exemption that pretty well anyone can
self-declare.
Totally illogical.
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,

That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.#

for once Rod is 100% right here

a vaccine passport has to have a system that allows for the people who
cannot be vaccinated (or don't need to be because they have recently
been infected with the disease)




So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus is no
respecter of reason for no vaccine.
--
bert

In article , alan_m
writes
On 25/02/2021 22:31, Fredxx wrote:

Hence why excess deaths also became a useful indicator for the spread
of Covid.

Surely excess deaths to measure of covid deaths is only meaningful if
the rest of the NHS was working the same way as in previous years? If
there is a much reduced healthcare for other conditions the figure
could be expected to rise accordingly.

Indeed. Any method of measurement which influences what you are
measuring soon become valueless. That's why voltmeters have high
impedance.
--
bert

In article ,
Jonathan writes
On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 5:02:50 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

probably because all the people who actually died of flu were diagnosed
a dying of Covid
The deaths from Covid figures only apply to those who have tested positive.
Within the last 28 days, even if you were run over
Well due to lockdowns not that many people being run over - and in a
normal year it's only about 1500 road deaths.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with Nigel
Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to be
allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective


So you are not protected from someone else who is not vaccinated for
whatever reason.

It's still not proven that the inoculated can't incubate the disease and
pass it on

On 27/02/2021 14:45, bert wrote:
In article , John
Rumm writes
On 25/02/2021 22:19, bert wrote:

Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

Several things;

Vaccination will not necessarily prevent you being infected, all it
can do it improve the bodies response, making it faster and more
effective. The aim being to prevent serious illness, hospitalisation,
long term complications and/or death. The immune response can only do
its thing, once it has already been "invaded" by the pathogen. So is
still likely that a small window of time could remain where you could
transmit the infection on. Hence vaccinated people tooling about like
they are now captain Teflon are a liability for everyone else.

Mutations are a continued and natural part of the lifecycle of a
virus. Since mutations are random, a few will improve the virus'
ability to survive and reproduce, but many will lower it. Normally
when there is already a dominant and successful strain in broad
circulation, even potentially successful mutations may still not
actually succeed since too many of the hosts they reach already have a
sufficiently similar infection from a another strain[1], that they
can't compete.

This does however make the start of a vaccination program a
particularly risky one since it will drive down the reproductive rate
of the current dominant strains, giving more scope for variants to
gain traction. If these also happen to be less well targeted by the
vaccine, then you can quickly find yourself back at square one. The
way to minimise the rate of production of viable mutations, is to
reduce the number of infected hosts.

That means that all the non vaccine protective measures need to stay
in place for longer than may at first glance appear necessary in order
to keep driving the overall number of infections down as low as possible.


[1] It has been demonstrated that it's possible to contract two
different COVID 19 variants at the same time, although this is thought
be very rare.


None of this supports vaccine passports, rather the opposite.


To be honest I am not clear exactly what point was being made in the
preceding thread anyway!

So my comment was aimed only at your comment "If you have been
vaccinated what have you to fear?" in isolation. If I misread the intent
of your comment, then please accept my apologies - and perhaps clarify
what you were suggesting.

My reply was not intended imply any opinion on vaccine passports.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-
latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist
anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it to
them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with anti-vaxxer
and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated to
be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them visiting
pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with Farage's
name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective


So you are not protected from someone else who is not vaccinated for
whatever reason.

It's still not proven that the inoculated can't incubate the disease and
pass it on

So your support for a vaccination passport being required for
shops and pubs and gyms and churches etc makes no sense.

And it means that those who have recovered from an infection
couldn't use any of those and vaccinating everyone wastes
vaccine until everyone has been vaccinated.

On 27/02/2021 14:31, bert wrote:

Another aspect is that vaccines trigger variants in the virus.
No, they don't.
They merely suppress the strain(s) they were developed for more allowing
other ones to become visible and possibly prosper

All the main variants existed before immunisation started



--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 27/02/2021 16:34, tim... wrote:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Fredxx
writes
On 25/02/2021 18:03, Rod Speed wrote:
Â* "Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2021 16:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2021 14:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:16:47 +0000, Andrew wrote:

Is this because of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing,
fear or inability to get to a GP, or something else ?

See this article in the Inde -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...d-england-phe-

latest-b1805124.html

Probably a combination. I wonder how the Faragist
anti-vaxxer-anti-
maskers will respond to this news, when a grown up has read it
to them ?

Why would being anti-vax or anti mask have anything to do with
Nigel Farage

I think Jethro is confusing an anti-lockdown policy with
anti-vaxxer and anti-mask wearers.

I have just signed the petition requiring only those vaccinated
to be allowed in shops and pubs when lockdown ends,
Â*That would be hard on those who cant be vaccinated
for medical reasons and there are some of those.

Very few, and I would expect with medical issues stopping them
visiting pubs and shops.

As with any legislation there are always justified exceptions.

so I'm wondering what group Jethro is trying to abuse with
Farage's name?


Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

that I'm in the 5% for which it isn't effective


So you are not protected from someone else who is not vaccinated for
whatever reason.

It's still not proven that the inoculated can't incubate the disease and
pass it on


It is proven that the '5% for whom it is not effective' is a phrase only
an Art Student would say and it is in fact meaningless

As meaningless as people who say 'wind turbines only produce for 30% of
the time'.

In both cases its technical information parroted incorrectly by someone
who didn't understand it in the first place.




--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On 27/02/2021 14:35, bert wrote:
In article , RJH writes
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should -
however
odd that advice might seem.

But it was approved for all age groups by the EU regulatory body

Sigh. The Art Student Speaks. Whilst not defending Merkel, the
difference between approval - not harmful - and effective - actually
works - is a distinction that seems to have utterly escaped you.

There was insufficient data to say whether AZ was effective in over 50s.
They simply didn't risk testing it on older people, so the truth is not
that its ineffective, but that no one knows if it is. However there is
no reason why it would not be, and that is where the weaselling is
coming from - the Big Pharma lackeys scent disaster and no one buying up
their expensive vaccines if a not for profit one takes the world market.

They have bribed the right people to do a FUD on the competition.

That this will cost a million lives is something they will never be held
to account over, just like Blair and war crimes and Dr Kelly



--
€œwhen things get difficult you just have to lie€�

€• Jean Claud Jüncker

On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus is no
respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



--
€œThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:52:12 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

In article ,
bert wrote:
Another aspect is that vaccines trigger variants in the virus.

Odd how many variants we've had before the vaccines were used, Bert?
Perhaps that doesn't fit into your agenda.

--
*Heart attacks... God's revenge for eating his animal friends

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if that
is by choice then it's their risk.

That certainly shows your true colours.

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus is
no respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
--
bert

On 28/02/2021 13:47, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus is
noÂ* respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
No. The point of passports is to ensure high vaccine take up.If you
start giving them to people who *aren't* vaccinated then then *that* is
when they become pointless


--
€œThe ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.€�

Herbert Spencer

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 28/02/2021 13:47, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus
is no* respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
No. The point of passports is to ensure high vaccine take up.If you
start giving them to people who *aren't* vaccinated then then *that* is
when they become pointless


So compulsory medication in contravention of international law by the
back door.
--
bert

On 28/02/2021 17:10, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 28/02/2021 13:47, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus
isÂ* noÂ* respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
No. The point of passports is to ensure high vaccine take up.IfÂ* you
start giving them to people who *aren't* vaccinated then then *that*
is when they become pointless


So compulsory medication in contravention of international law by the
back door.

Not at all. No one forces you to have the vaccine or a normal life.

Just as no one is forcing you to have a smart meter, or an electric car


--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 28/02/2021 17:10, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 28/02/2021 13:47, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus
isÂ* noÂ* respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or cant
take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
No. The point of passports is to ensure high vaccine take up.IfÂ* you
start giving them to people who *aren't* vaccinated then then *that*
is when they become pointless


So compulsory medication in contravention of international law by the
back door.

Are you intimating that those who don't want the vaccine are going to be
held down against their will to be vaccinated.

Or do you agree there is still a choice?

On 28/02/2021 17:29, Fredxx wrote:
On 28/02/2021 17:10, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 28/02/2021 13:47, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2021 14:47, bert wrote:

So there's no point in the passport in the first place. The virus
isÂ* noÂ* respecter of reason for no vaccine.

No, there is no point in giving passports to people who wont or
cant take the vaccine or a tet to show antibodies.

If that debars them from a normal life, so be it



Then even less point in passports in the first place.
No. The point of passports is to ensure high vaccine take up.IfÂ* you
start giving them to people who *aren't* vaccinated then then *that*
is when they become pointless


So compulsory medication in contravention of international law by the
back door.

Are you intimating that those who don't want the vaccine are going to be
held down against their will to be vaccinated.

Or do you agree there is still a choice?

Many countries require other vaccinations before children are permitted
to start school. They are still not mandatory, but life is a lot harder
without them and no-one has yet said that those countries have been
breaking the law for decades.

On 26/02/2021 22:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2021 21:46, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/02/2021 18:55, Fred wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2021 11:34, RJH wrote:
On 26 Feb 2021 at 11:28:07 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:



As ****ing IGNORANT as Frau Merkel refusing the Astra Zeneca jab
on the
grounds it 'doesn't work for over 65s'

Its British, it was there first, and has been rushed through tests
faster than any other vaccine and its efficacy is largely unknown
that's
all.

To spin that into 'its ineffective' and refuse it to dying Germans in
order to save face for an utter failure by the EU and by Merkel to
protect their citizens is simply unacceptable.

F Merkel needs to be dancing the Spandau ballet


Just a POI - she's parroting their scientific advice. As she should
- however
odd that advice might seem.

And unlike most politicians she does have a scientific/physics
background

And realises that the Oxford/AstraZeneca was never tested on the over
65s.

Which does not mean that it does not work, just that for safety during
testing, they stuck to younger people. The chances of it not working
in older people or being dangerous are very slim (they are still
human), but it has not been proven to be as effective.

Still worth having as any protection helps and there are insufficient
alternatives to vaccinate everyone with other vaccines.

It is looking like regular vaccination may be necessary anyway, so at
least partial protection and then later re-vaccination is better than
just waiting.
Merkel is not parrotimg scientific advice, she is spinning political
propaganda

And even the German newspapers know it

And her scientific background means so does she

The argument that she could not have the AZ jab since it was against
guidelines seemed a bit weak since it was their choice as to how the
guidelines were set.

Still on the bright side it should let AZ off the hook when they moan
they are not getting their contracted doses, someone will point at the
millions they have in stock and are not using!


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if that
is by choice then it's their risk.

I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated, but
that is not my choice.

So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving
irresponsibly infects me?

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/02/2021 14:50, bert wrote:
In article , alan_m
writes
On 25/02/2021 22:31, Fredxx wrote:

Hence why excess deaths also became a useful indicator for the spread
ofÂ* Covid.

Surely excess deaths to measure of covid deaths is only meaningful if
the rest of the NHS was working the same way as in previous years?Â* If
there is a much reduced healthcare for other conditions the figure
could be expected to rise accordingly.

Indeed. Any method of measurement which influences what you are
measuring soon become valueless. That's why voltmeters have high impedance.

Which is why you make multiple measurements using different methods to
cross check the results.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if that
is by choice then it's their risk.

If by choice I would agree with you, however there are some where the
vaccination is not advised.

I know of an acquaintance in this situation due to a history of an
autoimmune response, and an unknown trigger for what was a serious
condition.

On 01/03/2021 01:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if
that is by choice then it's their risk.

I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated, but
that is not my choice.

So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving
irresponsibly infects me?

I believe Bert is considering the situation where you don't have the
vaccine by way of choice.

Before everyone who wants the vaccine has it, I would entirely agree
with you, but after you've had both shots?

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 01/03/2021 01:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if that
is by choice then it's their risk.

I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated, but
that is not my choice.

So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving irresponsibly
infects me?

I believe Bert is considering the situation where you don't have the
vaccine by way of choice.

Before everyone who wants the vaccine has it, I would entirely agree with
you, but after you've had both shots?

There will always be some whose immune system doesnt
work very well and so the vaccine isnt very effective for.

On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 20:06:40 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


I believe Bert is considering the situation where you don't have the
vaccine by way of choice.

Before everyone who wants the vaccine has it, I would entirely agree with
you, but after you've had both shots?

There will always be some whose immune system doesn¢t
work very well and so the vaccine isnt very effective for.

Let's all hope you will be such a case, senile Ozzie troll!

--
Richard about senile Rodent:
"Rod Speed, a bare faced pig and ignorant ****."
MID:

In article , John
Rumm writes
On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if
that is by choice then it's their risk.

I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated,
but that is not my choice.

You are in the sae medical situation as anyone else who has not been
vaccinated
So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving
irresponsibly infects me?

That is independent of the reason you have not been vaccinated. How
would a vaccination certificate held by the irresponsible person
actually help you? How would you not having such a certificate help you?
--
bert

In article , Fredxx
writes
On 01/03/2021 01:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if
that is by choice then it's their risk.
I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated,
but that is not my choice.
So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving
irresponsibly infects me?

I believe Bert is considering the situation where you don't have the
vaccine by way of choice.

I was, but we must not forget those who do not have that choice.
Before everyone who wants the vaccine has it, I would entirely agree
with you, but after you've had both shots?



--
bert

On 03/03/2021 11:17, bert wrote:
In article , John
Rumm writes
On 27/02/2021 14:42, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* bert wrote:
Totally illogical. If you have been vaccinated what have you to fear?

The fear of passing it on to someone who isn't vaccinated?

That's a problem for the people who have not been vaccinated and if
thatÂ* is by choice then it's their risk.

I don't think you have thought this through.... I am not vaccinated,
but that is not my choice.

You are in the sae medical situation as anyone else who has not been
vaccinated

Yeah, partially reliant on others not behaving like tits!

So is it still ok if someone who is vaccinated but behaving
irresponsibly infects me?

That is independent of the reason you have not been vaccinated. How
would a vaccination certificate held by the irresponsible person
actually help you?

It wouldn't - in fact it might encourage them to behave more irresponsibly.

How would you not having such a certificate help you?

How would *not* having one help me? It wouldn't.

On the other hand having one *might* be of use, depending on how they
are used in future.

As I said, I don't really have a dog in the "passport" fight. However I
can see that "they" (in whatever form that might be) will come by
default in one way or another regardless of whether government mandates
them.

So there will be a the point that you need to prove you are vaccinated
to gain certain types of employment, or to travel to foreign countries etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

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