In message , Archibald
Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq writes
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:42:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

But it doesn't.

The only time I,m asked for ID is when flying. Car or as a foot
passenger, it doesn't matter, I have never ever been asked for ID at
any port or in either direction.

Well, you're the expert. I've heard several times that checks are made -
even if it's only to check the passenger list so they'll know if you've
fallen overboard en route.
--
Ian

On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 13:39:52 +0100, Keema's Nan
wrote:

On 8 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in article ):

In iganews.com,
Keema's Nan wrote:
On 7 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in ):

In ,
Omega wrote:
But what is equally as bad is the religion of Brexiteers - seeking to
impose their views on others.

Yes, but we had GOD on our side, he saw to it we had a million and a
half votes more than the Remainers!

Your god appears rather lacking in power. A decent one would have
given you a big majority of those entitled to vote. Lets say all those
who voted voting leave. Very very few would argue about 2/3rds of
those entitled to vote being in favour or whatever.

And if you had a decent honest remain god, it would have said ”Ok, we
lost. Let‘s do the gentlemanly thing and let the winners have their
way•.

Unlike the right wing, I wouldn't dream of claiming to have any god on my
side. I'll leave that to the likes of Trump.

Brexiteers are still waiting for the virtue signalling, holier than
thou, sanctimonious remainers to defer to a democratic majority.

One day you'll finally admit there was never a majority for a leave with
no deal. Since it wasn't a question which was asked.
Nor was leave with an Irish backstop.

If everyone believed that leave meant leave with nothing less than a pathetic
deal satisfactory to remain, then why did they not put that on the referendum
ballot paper?

And the leave
campaign were adamant the EU would give in to our every demand, just to
keep a trade deal. Since they needed us more than we needed them.

A situation which, with remain losers in parliament undermining the
negotiating position at every turn, we have never even come near to testing
to our advantage.

What do you think Britains bagaining position should be then?

Withdraw the car exports?

Without research and a significant design input into road vehicles,
the exports are finished anyway. Investment needs to be kept in the
EU.

Finance and services?

Europe has people queuing up to take Britains place in Frankfurt and
Dublin.

Defence, well you will still have the Saudi's and I don't think Europe
were a lot of help there.

Oh wait, yes I have it, all is not lost:-

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7887801.html

We are saved. Europe must realise they would be totally screwed
without British sunglasses.

Do you actually read and understand the rubbish you come out with.

I am not remain incidentally. I didn't vote, if there were another
referendum I couldn't be bothered voting.

I just want to see you clowns out of the EU.

Maybe then you will find something else to whinge about.

AB





If leave had campaigned on the basis of cutting ourselves off from the EU
entirely, there'd have been no debate about it now.

And if leave had lost, any effort to play dirty tricks on remain (as they
have done to brexiters) would have been met with howls of “undemocratic”
and “trying to be unconstitutional by force”, etc, etc.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 14:18:04 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Archibald
Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq writes
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:42:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

But it doesn't.

The only time I,m asked for ID is when flying. Car or as a foot
passenger, it doesn't matter, I have never ever been asked for ID at
any port or in either direction.

Well, you're the expert. I've heard several times that checks are made -
even if it's only to check the passenger list so they'll know if you've
fallen overboard en route.

I can understand that, although formal ID would no doubt be optional.
People can find it hard establishing their "sea legs" when on any of
the UK/ Irish ferries. They even have trouble in port and although the
duty free has long since gone, the downing of a bottle of Jamesons or
similar from the sales outlet isn't uncommon.

People going overboard isn't unknown in such circumstances and if you
saw some of the trippers,you would see that legless is a group
requirement.

AB

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel between NI and GB
already normally requires the production of some acceptable form of ID - albeit usually
not officially for the purposes of border control?

Freedom of movement between the UK and the RoI only applies
to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence. The same would still apply after a No Deal Brexit.
The only difference would be that some mechanism would be
required - by the UK - to ensure that only UK and RoI citizens
crossed the border between NI and the RoI.

Otherwise as Dave says the alien EU hordes can pitch up in
Dublin, take a bus to Belfast and catch the next ferry
to Stranraer.


michael adams

....





--
Ian

"Brian Reay" wrote in message ...
michael adams wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...

The GFA just requires "normalising" of the border.

It requires rather more than that.



127.Strand two of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement established
the North/South Ministerial Council which brings together ministers
from both governments "to develop consultation, co-operation and
action" on an all-island and cross-border basis.308 The Council
agreed six areas of cooperation under the Agreement; agriculture,
education, environment, health, tourism and transport.

https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm

Agriculture is the biggest sticking point. How can there be cross-border
co-operation on agriculture if cattle and sheep in a field would
be subject to 25% and 75% tarrifs (or whatever) if they're simply
moved into
the next field ?




All pure speculation and nonsense.

Take cattle. There are a tracked commodity. It is possible to track a cow
back to a farm. No ear tag, then it is stolen, smuggled, etc. The level of
detail is amazing. Ditto sheep, pigs etc.

The fact that they are tracked is immaterial. The point is that at the moment
they can be moved across the border without attracting any tarriffs.


Plus, tariffs are not mandatory. If the EU impose them and cause a problem
that is their problem.

Ah back to fairyland. If there are going to be any problems then it will all be the
fault of the EU,

When this thing started the UK were supposed to be vastly skilled negotaitors who
were going to run rings round Johnny Foreigner. Then when the negotations start
and Davis and Fox realise they didn't have a clue what the EU negotiators, let alone
their own officials are going on about, its all the EU's fault for complicating things
and not playing fair.

As you seem to find all this stuff so straightforward its clearly a tragedy of
monumental proportions that you've never been called upon to offer your
advice to the people that really matter.

Boris might well be awaiting your call at this very minute; if that is only he knew
what he was missing.

michael adams

....


michael adams

....





..

In article ,
tim... wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was Horse
Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs. Not chlorinated
chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK to murder innocents.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 14:55:25 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Brian Reay" wrote in message ...
michael adams wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...

The GFA just requires "normalising" of the border.

It requires rather more than that.



127.Strand two of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement established
the North/South Ministerial Council which brings together ministers
from both governments "to develop consultation, co-operation and
action" on an all-island and cross-border basis.308 The Council
agreed six areas of cooperation under the Agreement; agriculture,
education, environment, health, tourism and transport.

https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm

Agriculture is the biggest sticking point. How can there be cross-border
co-operation on agriculture if cattle and sheep in a field would
be subject to 25% and 75% tarrifs (or whatever) if they're simply
moved into
the next field ?




All pure speculation and nonsense.

Take cattle. There are a tracked commodity. It is possible to track a cow
back to a farm. No ear tag, then it is stolen, smuggled, etc. The level of
detail is amazing. Ditto sheep, pigs etc.

The fact that they are tracked is immaterial. The point is that at the moment
they can be moved across the border without attracting any tarriffs.


Plus, tariffs are not mandatory. If the EU impose them and cause a problem
that is their problem.

Ah back to fairyland. If there are going to be any problems then it will all be the
fault of the EU,

When this thing started the UK were supposed to be vastly skilled negotaitors who
were going to run rings round Johnny Foreigner. Then when the negotations start
and Davis and Fox realise they didn't have a clue what the EU negotiators, let alone
their own officials are going on about, its all the EU's fault for complicating things
and not playing fair.

As you seem to find all this stuff so straightforward its clearly a tragedy of
monumental proportions that you've never been called upon to offer your
advice to the people that really matter.

Boris might well be awaiting your call at this very minute; if that is only he knew
what he was missing.

michael adams

...


michael adams

Very well put, it shouldn't need to be. Explaining the blindingly
obvious would be an apt description.

As I said, is it any wonder PPI was so poular :-)

AB

On 08/09/2019 12:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
Plus, tariffs are not mandatory. If the EU impose them and cause a
problem that is their problem.

Can I get this clear? In your Utopian UK, after crashing out, you want the
UK to have no tariffs at all on imports?

Have you talked to your idol Trump about this?

Have you actually read Brian's post?

It is the choice of the importing nation to set tariffs, or agree an
alternative, ie a deal.

You misunderstand it is not the EU that sets UK import tariffs after a
no deal Brexit.

In article .com,
Keema's Nan wrote:
And the leave
campaign were adamant the EU would give in to our every demand, just to
keep a trade deal. Since they needed us more than we needed them.

A situation which, with remain losers in parliament undermining the
negotiating position at every turn, we have never even come near to
testing to our advantage.

Ah - that old chestnut. The EU is simply bluffing. For the last 3 years
while the UK runs round like headless chickens seeking chlorine.

And only good 'ol Boris can call their bluff. While not even being in the
same room as the game.

Be good to here where he's succeeded before. Did his water cannons stop
further disruptive demonstrations in London? Can we now stroll across a
beautiful pedestrian only bridge at the south bank?

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/09/2019 12:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Steve Walker
writes
On 08/09/2019 07:10, Stephen Cole wrote:




What€˜s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we€˜re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?

Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.

We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?

You've missed the point. Only the far right are allowed to make laws. Any
others are undemocratic.

History does seem to lend that view.

Even the NSDAP was a socialist party.

In article ,
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

Does that mean the only place you'll be able to find a builder is in NI,
then?

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/09/2019 15:19, Fredxx wrote:
On 08/09/2019 12:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Brian Reay wrote:
Plus, tariffs are not mandatory. If the EU impose them and cause a
problem that is their problem.

Can I get this clear? In your Utopian UK, after crashing out, you want
the
UK to have no tariffs at all on imports?

Have you talked to your idol Trump about this?

Have you actually read Brian's post?

It is the choice of the importing nation to set tariffs, or agree an
alternative, ie a deal.

You misunderstand it is not the EU that sets UK import tariffs after a
no deal Brexit.



David is a Remainer, you can't expect him to read things let alone
understand even the most basic concepts.

On 08/09/2019 12:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

The EU's definition of free movement is disingenuous.

Free movement is one thing, but that doesn't include working, where an
employer would attract a healthy fine if they employed someone they
ought not. I, and most others, have no issue with this kind of "free
movement".

On 08/09/2019 15:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

Does that mean the only place you'll be able to find a builder is in NI,
then?

Only one that is happy to be paid peanuts.

You can always find yourself a builder. You might just have to pay the
going rate.

On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was Horse
Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

It is against UK law to sell if it isn't correctly labeled.

As for the Horse meat in question conforming to the relevant regs, do
you really expect people to believe that?

On 08/09/2019 13:03, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/09/2019 20:09, Brian Reay wrote:
On 07/09/2019 19:54, tim... wrote:


"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 07/09/2019 16:16, Keema's Nan wrote:
On 7 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in article ):

In ,
Omega Â* wrote:
But what is equally as bad is the religion of Brexiteers -
seeking to
impose their views on others.

Yes, but we had GOD on our side, he saw to it we had a million
and a
half votes more than the Remainers!

Your god appears rather lacking in power. A decent one would have
given
you a big majority of those entitled to vote. Lets say all those
who voted
voting leave. Very very few would argue about 2/3rds of those
entitled to
vote being in favour or whatever.
Â*And if you had a decent honest remain god, it would have said
€œOk, we lost.
Lets do the gentlemanly thing and let the winners have their way€�.
Â*Brexiteers are still waiting for the virtue signalling, holier
than thou,
sanctimonious remainers to defer to a democratic majority.

And that is the fundamentally scary thing: the WHOLE establishment
media and parliament have united to simply deny that a mjority
voted to leave by any means possible.

They are in effect denying the validity of democracy,
That means we are in effect living in a dictatorship by no one we
know manipulating politicians and media behind the scenes.

It's not about Brexit now. It's about democracy itself.

Or possibly that the Irish border issue did not concern the
brexiteer vote and that no deal was not on the ballot paper.

No amount of huffing and puffing is going to convince the EU that no
deal was ever a realistic threat.

Sort out the Ireland issue and settle for the rest of May's deal.

but there is no May deal without the current Irish solution

A solution suggests there is a problem.

The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.

The Irish see this as a way to try and grab NI plus, of course, fear
they will have to contribute to the EU gravy train when theÂ* UK stops.


Or they just don't believe the suggested alternatives will work.

There isn't much evidence to suggest they will or that the brexiteers
have done anything that might make it work.

It's typical brexteering.. blame it on the EU.
Brexiteers blame everything on the EU, it can't possibly be that they
don't have a clue.

Are you suggesting the backstop isn't of the EU's creation?

No one else has suggested a hard border in the island of Ireland. The
issue is there isn't going to be one in the Irish Sea between NI and the
rest of the UK, either by agreement, or by no agreement.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

Does that mean the only place you'll be able to find a builder is in NI,
then?

Dave - are you feeling OK? WTF has 'a builder' to do with the subject?
--
Ian

On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

That is the issue, EU regs.

Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.

Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.

The UK does a good job of bombing innocents too, plus the occasional
summary execution.

On 08/09/2019 16:48, Fredxx wrote:
On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

That is the issue, EU regs.

Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.

Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.

I've eaten chicken in the US and horse in France.
hic
I'd happily eat chicken in the US again but probably wouldn't order
horse again. There is was nothing especially wrong with the horse,
perhaps a bit tough. As for the chicken, no different to any other
chicken I've had elsewhere.

Funny isn't it. People get upset about the Americans ensuring their
chicken is free of bugs by using a quick wash in a (very) bath with a
bit of chlorine in it but not about countless other food matters. If
they even visited, say, a egg production plant or an abattoir, they'd
have to give up eggs and meat.

I wonder if David has ever eaten Escargot? Or Frogs Legs? He should.
What about real, Blue Cheese?

On 8 Sep 2019, Fredxx wrote
(in article ):

On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In , tim...
wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

That is the issue, EU regs.

Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.

Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.

No. I use charcoal filters. Ooops, have you bent your brain?



The UK does a good job of bombing innocents too, plus the occasional
summary execution.

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 13:39:52 +0100, Keema's Nan
wrote:

On 8 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in article ):

In iganews.com,
Keema's Nan wrote:
On 7 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in ):

In ,
Omega wrote:
But what is equally as bad is the religion of Brexiteers -
seeking to
impose their views on others.

Yes, but we had GOD on our side, he saw to it we had a million and
a
half votes more than the Remainers!

Your god appears rather lacking in power. A decent one would have
given you a big majority of those entitled to vote. Lets say all
those
who voted voting leave. Very very few would argue about 2/3rds of
those entitled to vote being in favour or whatever.

And if you had a decent honest remain god, it would have said "Ok, we
lost. Let's do the gentlemanly thing and let the winners have their
way..

Unlike the right wing, I wouldn't dream of claiming to have any god on
my
side. I'll leave that to the likes of Trump.

Brexiteers are still waiting for the virtue signalling, holier than
thou, sanctimonious remainers to defer to a democratic majority.

One day you'll finally admit there was never a majority for a leave with
no deal. Since it wasn't a question which was asked.
Nor was leave with an Irish backstop.

If everyone believed that leave meant leave with nothing less than a
pathetic
deal satisfactory to remain, then why did they not put that on the
referendum
ballot paper?

And the leave
campaign were adamant the EU would give in to our every demand, just to
keep a trade deal. Since they needed us more than we needed them.

A situation which, with remain losers in parliament undermining the
negotiating position at every turn, we have never even come near to
testing
to our advantage.

What do you think Britains bagaining position should be then?

Withdraw the car exports?

Without research and a significant design input into road vehicles,
the exports are finished anyway.
Agreed

Investment needs to be kept in the
EU.

The rEU is losing out here for the same reason

It's all going to the Far East/USA


Finance and services?

Europe has people queuing up to take Britains place in Frankfurt and
Dublin.

Entirely unsuccessfully. Even the EU have accepted that they can't steal
the majority of this business

tim

On 08/09/2019 18:34, Keema's Nan wrote:
On 8 Sep 2019, Fredxx wrote
(in article ):

On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In , tim...
wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

That is the issue, EU regs.

Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.

Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.

No. I use charcoal filters. Ooops, have you bent your brain?

Am I to understand that Dave is so thick he didnt know that all UK water
is chlorinated unless its bottled?



--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes of
border control?

Freedom of movement between the UK and the RoI only applies

freedom of travel across the border applies to everybody

freedom to live/work only applies to local citizens but that is enforced at
point of employment/housing

to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence.

No they aren't

there isn't even a place this can be done

The same would still apply after a No Deal Brexit.
The only difference would be that some mechanism would be
required - by the UK - to ensure that only UK and RoI citizens
crossed the border between NI and the RoI.

No there wouldn't.

Otherwise as Dave says the alien EU hordes can pitch up in
Dublin, take a bus to Belfast and catch the next ferry
to Stranraer.

they can

but they can't live or work here once they get here, because
employers/landlords are supposed to check their eligibility

That's the enforcement mechanism

tim

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
michael adams wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...

The GFA just requires "normalising" of the border.

It requires rather more than that.



127.Strand two of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement established
the North/South Ministerial Council which brings together ministers
from both governments "to develop consultation, co-operation and
action" on an all-island and cross-border basis.308 The Council
agreed six areas of cooperation under the Agreement; agriculture,
education, environment, health, tourism and transport.

https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm

Agriculture is the biggest sticking point. How can there be cross-border
co-operation on agriculture if cattle and sheep in a field would
be subject to 25% and 75% tarrifs (or whatever) if they're simply
moved into
the next field ?




All pure speculation and nonsense.

Take cattle. There are a tracked commodity. It is possible to track a cow
back to a farm. No ear tag, then it is stolen, smuggled, etc. The level
of
detail is amazing. Ditto sheep, pigs etc.

The fact that they are tracked is immaterial. The point is that at the
moment
they can be moved across the border without attracting any tarriffs.

tariffs are not the problem

they can be solved with an FTA which the EU have said in principle they
would agree to

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was Horse
Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs. Not chlorinated
chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK to murder innocents.

Oh so it's OK to import non chlorinated chicken from counties which think
it's OK to murder innocents?

tim

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was Horse
Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

It is against UK law to sell if it isn't correctly labeled.

As for the Horse meat in question conforming to the relevant regs, do you
really expect people to believe that?

it's already not conforming to the regs by having "beef" on the label

everything else is irrelevant

tim

On 2019-09-08, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel
between NI and GB already normally requires the production of some
acceptable form of ID - albeit usually not officially for the purposes
of border control?

Currently Ireland isn't in Schengen, so while EU citizens are free to
travel there, most migrants aren't - hence the focus of getting into the
UK via Calais.

But based on Irelands declaration in the Amsterdam treaty, it seems
reasonable to assume that Ireland isn't in Schengen to protect the CTA.
If the UK tears that up then Ireland might join Schengen. Which could
make things interesting...

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 18:36:54 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 13:39:52 +0100, Keema's Nan
wrote:

On 8 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in article ):

In iganews.com,
Keema's Nan wrote:
On 7 Sep 2019, Dave Plowman (News) wrote
(in ):

In ,
Omega wrote:
But what is equally as bad is the religion of Brexiteers -
seeking to
impose their views on others.

Yes, but we had GOD on our side, he saw to it we had a million and
a
half votes more than the Remainers!

Your god appears rather lacking in power. A decent one would have
given you a big majority of those entitled to vote. Lets say all
those
who voted voting leave. Very very few would argue about 2/3rds of
those entitled to vote being in favour or whatever.

And if you had a decent honest remain god, it would have said "Ok, we
lost. Let's do the gentlemanly thing and let the winners have their
way..

Unlike the right wing, I wouldn't dream of claiming to have any god on
my
side. I'll leave that to the likes of Trump.

Brexiteers are still waiting for the virtue signalling, holier than
thou, sanctimonious remainers to defer to a democratic majority.

One day you'll finally admit there was never a majority for a leave with
no deal. Since it wasn't a question which was asked.
Nor was leave with an Irish backstop.

If everyone believed that leave meant leave with nothing less than a
pathetic
deal satisfactory to remain, then why did they not put that on the
referendum
ballot paper?

And the leave
campaign were adamant the EU would give in to our every demand, just to
keep a trade deal. Since they needed us more than we needed them.

A situation which, with remain losers in parliament undermining the
negotiating position at every turn, we have never even come near to
testing
to our advantage.

What do you think Britains bagaining position should be then?

Withdraw the car exports?

Without research and a significant design input into road vehicles,
the exports are finished anyway.
Agreed

Investment needs to be kept in the
EU.

The rEU is losing out here for the same reason

It's all going to the Far East/USA


Finance and services?

Europe has people queuing up to take Britains place in Frankfurt and
Dublin.

Entirely unsuccessfully. Even the EU have accepted that they can't steal
the majority of this business

tim



"Steal"?

Keeping something in house is not theft.

Taking a financier to court in London isn't exactly the most
convenient way of settling a dispute. Although I would guess that the
knuckle draggers cease their idiocy about soveriegnty and following
British laws when the Sun stops telling them they are slaves to
Europe. That will happen on day one of Brexit, when the Moggs of the
country escape the need to pay their whack of tax.

AB

"tim..." wrote in message ...


"michael adams" wrote in message
...

to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence.


No they aren't

quote

There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and
UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. . However,
all air and sea carriers require some form of identification
and some regard a passport as the only valid identification.
* Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid
official photo-identification which shows your nationality.*
As you are being asked to prove that you are an
Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common
Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your
passport.

/quote

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nd_the_uk.html

That is the position at present as it potentially affects all
travellers between the two countries.

The fact that you didn't know this, and were anxious to prove
the point, doesn't really come as much of a surprise to be honest.


there isn't even a place this can be done

As far as the land border is concerned at present no there isn't,
is there Tim ?

Yet !

Is the penny ever going to actually drop I wonder ?

remaining in-line nonsense all of which stemmed from Tim's
evident ignorance of the operation of the CTA snipped


michael adams

....

"tim..." wrote in message ...

but they can't live or work here once they get here, because employers/landlords are
supposed to check their eligibility

So that seems to be one of the *actual* reasons for people
voting for Brexit, blown to smithereens in one sentence.

Have you told many other people about this ?


michael adams

....

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:37:45 +0100, "michael adams"
mjadams25@ukonline wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message ...


"michael adams" wrote in message
...

to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence.


No they aren't

quote

There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and
UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. . However,
all air and sea carriers require some form of identification

You may be asked for photo ID when entering a dockyard irrespective of
whether you are travelling, it's for security.

Likewise formal ID is needed to get airside, Travelling isn't a factor
in the requirement.

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:37:45 +0100, "michael adams"
mjadams25@ukonline wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message ...


"michael adams" wrote in message
...

to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence.


No they aren't

quote

There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and
UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. . However,
all air and sea carriers require some form of identification

You may be asked for photo ID when entering a dockyard irrespective of
whether you are travelling, it's for security.

Dockyards ? Dockyards are where they build ships. Docks require
security to deter smuggling and illegal entry into the country
formerly by Lascars and similar. Usually shrouded in fog as they
slipped down the gangway. I doubt you'd be accosted if innocently
loitering around the entrance of a Ferry terminal.


Likewise formal ID is needed to get airside, Travelling isn't a factor
in the requirement.

AB

Why did you snip the most salient paragraphs of the passage
I quoted ?


* Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid
official photo-identification which shows your nationality.*
As you are being asked to prove that you are an
Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common
Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your
passport.


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nd_the_uk.html



michael adams

....

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:18:48 +0100, "michael adams"
mjadams25@ukonline wrote:


"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:37:45 +0100, "michael adams"
mjadams25@ukonline wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message ...


"michael adams" wrote in message
...

to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence.


No they aren't

quote

There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and
UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. . However,
all air and sea carriers require some form of identification

You may be asked for photo ID when entering a dockyard irrespective of
whether you are travelling, it's for security.

Dockyards ? Dockyards are where they build ships. Docks require
security to deter smuggling and illegal entry into the country
formerly by Lascars and similar. Usually shrouded in fog as they
slipped down the gangway. I doubt you'd be accosted if innocently
loitering around the entrance of a Ferry terminal.

According to the instructions, proof of ID is needed. You obviously
don't read your dockyard/ ferry terminal entrance gates.

Likewise formal ID is needed to get airside, Travelling isn't a factor
in the requirement.

AB

Why did you snip the most salient paragraphs of the passage
I quoted ?

Nebulous requests are not a legally binding demand. The passage has no
legal value.


Irrelevant anyway as the ID is needed for entrance to the dockyard or
airfield.


* Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid
official photo-identification which shows your nationality.*
As you are being asked to prove that you are an
Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common
Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your
passport.

Is May and adviseable now a legal requirement then?

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq" wrote in message
...

* Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid
official photo-identification which shows your nationality.*
As you are being asked to prove that you are an
Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common
Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your
passport.

Is May and adviseable now a legal requirement then?

Immigration authorities may exercise their *discretion* as to
whether they require you to offer proof of your nationality, or
not, on any particular occasion. The criteria they may use are
deliberately inscrutable and not amenable to discussion as
a matter of policy.

Therefore should they decide that you should offer proof of
your nationality, for which they are not required to provide
any reason at all, then if you can't offer any such proof,
then they're perfectly, and legally, entitled to refuse you
entry.

It really is as simple as that.



michael adams

....

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"tim..." wrote in message
...

but they can't live or work here once they get here, because
employers/landlords are supposed to check their eligibility

So that seems to be one of the *actual* reasons for people
voting for Brexit, blown to smithereens in one sentence.

Nope, because that isnt the case with the UK still in the EU, stupid.

On 08/09/2019 10:29, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Steve Walker
writes
On 08/09/2019 07:10, Stephen Cole wrote:




Whats the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe were going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?

Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.

We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?

Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles? Expensive
safety systems that make only a little difference to safety, but render
vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage? To reduce or
raise import tariffs on certain goods? At what level VAT should be set?
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods? To control immigration? And
the list goes on.

Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU laws
or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies more than
others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.

SteveW

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:37:42 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Nope

LOL Did you just get one of your tiny senile online orgasms again, you
ridiculous auto-contradicting senile troll?

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On 08/09/2019 17:13, Brian Reay wrote:
On 08/09/2019 16:48, Fredxx wrote:
On 08/09/2019 15:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.

As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).

But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.

That is the issue, EU regs.

Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.

Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.

I've eaten chicken in the US and horse in France.
hic
I'd happily eat chicken in the US again but probably wouldn't order
horse again. There is was nothing especially wrong with the horse,
perhaps a bit tough. As for the chicken, no different to any other
chicken I've had elsewhere.

Funny isn't it. People get upset about the Americans ensuring their
chicken is free of bugs by using a quick wash in a (very) bath with a
bit of chlorine in it but not about countless other food matters. If
they even visited, say, a egg production plant or an abattoir, they'd
have to give up eggs and meat.

The problem with chlorinated chicken is simply that it is used to "hide"
the poor animal welfare, sanitary controls and transportation of "some"
suppliers, all leading to far higher levels of contamination than in the
EU. I am more concerned about about the welfare (I am a confirmed meat
eater, but see no reason to treat animals worse than is necessary) and
the fact that chlorination not only doesn't kill all the contamination,
but also prevents it being accurately checked. Figures clearly show that
the US rate of food poisoning is many times that in the UK.

SteveW

On 08/09/2019 12:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

And, as I have said to you many times, they arrive in the UK as
visitors, without the correct paperwork to gain employment, claim
benefits, use the NHS, rent a home, etc.

I don't care if the whole world visits the UK, just that only those that
we permit remain here.

SteveW

On 08/09/2019 14:35, michael adams wrote:
"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Irish problem is entirely fabricated by the EU / Ireland. At no
point has the UK suggested a hard border. It is Ireland which is
building border check points, not the UK.


OK then. EU workers have free movement to Eire. With no border controls,
they can take a bus to Ulster, and onwards to the UK. Unless we have
controls between Ulster and the mainland. Unacceptable to the DUP.

But haven't we discussed this before - and we realised that travel between NI and GB
already normally requires the production of some acceptable form of ID - albeit usually
not officially for the purposes of border control?

Freedom of movement between the UK and the RoI only applies
to citizens of the UK and RoI and for this reason citizens
of the UK and RoI can be asked to produce proof of
nationality which normally means a passport or a driving
licence. The same would still apply after a No Deal Brexit.
The only difference would be that some mechanism would be
required - by the UK - to ensure that only UK and RoI citizens
crossed the border between NI and the RoI.

Otherwise as Dave says the alien EU hordes can pitch up in
Dublin, take a bus to Belfast and catch the next ferry
to Stranraer.

Are we trying to stop EU citizens visiting? Without the correct
paperwork, *remaining* in the UK is a lot harder - no job, no home, no
benefits, no NHS, etc.

SteveW