On 29/12/2018 17:42, William Gothberg wrote:
I was just asking WHY.* And people have already said that commercial
ones are 2kW, so it's entirely possible.

They are used judiciously.

Bill

mike wrote:

I believe they're all licensed from Panasonic.
When I bought mine, it seemed that all the licensees had
dried up leaving Panasonic as the only locally available units.


Found a site that said GE and Whirlpool used to license the patent, but no
longer do. Just did a quick Google patent search - there are more than one
related to the use of an inverter to control the magnetron, all held by
different companies.

IIRC patents are only good for 17 years or so. Seems like they would have
expired by now.

Max Demian wrote:
Amanita phalloides
Pest, making me use google.

On 29/12/2018 19:15, Rod Speed wrote:

And what on earth do you do with hoovers?

They work fine on 110V, stupid.

Lower wattage.

Bill

On 29/12/2018 17:26, William Gothberg wrote:


I don't need a MW, but the usual 600W to 900W in domestic ovens is
pitiful.* What's wrong with 2kW?

I don't find much use for the 1,200W setting. The only real use is for
heating water quickly when the kettle's broken. Even jacket spuds are
cooked unevenly. Thick soup needs to be stirred during cooking. Meat is
hopeless.

Bill

On 29/12/2018 18:21, % wrote:

You can get a 700W microwave for £30.* Surely 2kW would be less than
triple that, so under £90.

and then re wire the house and when you use it ,
you can watch the hydro disk spin like a top

Rewire to use 2kW? Do you live in a tent?

Bill

On 29/12/2018 17:34, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:

Some foods and defrosting would work much better if the actual power level could
be adjusted. Panasonic claims to make an inverter based design, but I'm not
convinced they actually adjust the outpout power.


I have two. They do. They don't cycle.

Bill

"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:38:04 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 08:07:42 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/29/2018 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 9:23:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gill wrote:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW?
They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always better.

Bill

+1

That about covers it. Not sure how useful more power would be. For
example,
last night I was thawing out a tomato sauce in a quart plastic
container.
The Panasonic has a defrost mode that uses about 30% power and cycles
that.


It gets the 30% power by cycling the 100% power on 30% of the time.

(By the way, adjusting the level does not actually change the wattage.
It simply means the microwave will pulse on and off at its fixed
wattage
until the desired level is reached.)

https://lifehacker.com/5974788/famil...-cooking-a-joy
That was true of the first generation of Microwaves, but the current
"inverter" driver units actually CAN throttle the power. Inverter
microwaves are much better for defrosting AND cooking.

We've had ours for about 2 years now - replacing our original that we
bought in about 1985.

BIG difference (but the old one would likely still be working by the
time this one dies)

Why is it called an invertor? I thought an invertor was a device to
increase the voltage - like running 240V devices off a 12V car battery.

Why do you persist in posting waffle about which you know absolutely
nothing, twould be better to post on subjects you know or ask and educate
yourself about the other

Problem is that the ear to ear dog **** that makes it
completely unemployable stops that from happening.

And why on earth would you not want to cook on full power? I've never
had a reason to lower the power from the maximum of 800W. I want the
meal as soon as possible!

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 29/12/2018 17:35, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:15:05 -0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 29/12/2018 16:27, William Gothberg wrote:

It can take 5 minutes to warm something from frozen to eating
temperature. I see no reason that couldn't be made into 2 minutes.

Conduction

Which would be way faster if the water content the microwaves were
hitting was heated hotter.

But the difference in temp between the outside and the inside of the food
would be greater and this could result in food that was both over- and
under-cooked. This is why microwave ovens have low settings, so food can
cook slowly and evenly. Anyone who uses a microwave a lot will be well
aware of this. For items where convection can assist conduction higher
power can be fine, but not for large solid lumps of food.

His problem is that he is a stupid vegy and he's too stupid to notice that
what works for vegys doesn't work for stuff like legs of lamb and pork etc.

"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
87213 wrote:


"William Gothberg" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 21:23:55 -0000, mike wrote:

On 12/29/2018 10:16 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:38:04 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 08:07:42 -0800, Bob F
wrote:

On 12/29/2018 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 9:23:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gill
wrote:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW?
They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always
better.

Bill

+1

That about covers it. Not sure how useful more power would be.
For
example,
last night I was thawing out a tomato sauce in a quart plastic
container.
The Panasonic has a defrost mode that uses about 30% power and
cycles that.


It gets the 30% power by cycling the 100% power on 30% of the time.

(By the way, adjusting the level does not actually change the
wattage.
It simply means the microwave will pulse on and off at its fixed
wattage
until the desired level is reached.)

https://lifehacker.com/5974788/famil...-cooking-a-joy

That was true of the first generation of Microwaves, but the current
"inverter" driver units actually CAN throttle the power. Inverter
microwaves are much better for defrosting AND cooking.

We've had ours for about 2 years now - replacing our original that we
bought in about 1985.

BIG difference (but the old one would likely still be working by the
time this one dies)

Why is it called an invertor? I thought an invertor was a device to
increase the voltage - like running 240V devices off a 12V car
battery.

And why on earth would you not want to cook on full power? I've never
had a reason to lower the power from the maximum of 800W. I want the
meal as soon as possible!

There's been a lot of nitpicking in this thread.

All microwaves reduce power by cycling between 0 and 100% power.
The relative power level is the duty factor of that on/off cycle.

Older microwaves switch the INPUT to the power transformer.
That also runs the filament. The time to heat up the filament
is the limiting factor in how short you can make the on-time.
You get a minimum of about 10 seconds on-time.
That minimum time is plenty to make food explode.

Better microwaves are called "Inverter" microwaves.
I believe they're all licensed from Panasonic.
When I bought mine, it seemed that all the licensees had
dried up leaving Panasonic as the only locally available units.

It's my understanding that they heat the filament independently
and can have very short on-times. Duty factor is the same as
the older microwaves, but the on-time can be much shorter.

Foods don't explode on low power like they used to.

Food is not uniform. The effectiveness of microwaves decreases
as the food thickness increases. There's a thermal time constant.
So, if you cook at lower average power for longer time,
you can warm the inside without seriously overcooking the outside
or having local boiling that makes food explode.

The minimum on-time really helps with that. I haven't had food
explode since I got an Inverter microwave. The defrost cycle
really does work well.

They're slightly more expensive, but it's worth it.

I've never exploded food on a non-invertor microwave.

Try microwaving an egg in its shell sometime.


Do it all the time, for ten seconds for one or two eggs to bring to room
temp from the fridge.

That's not cooking it.

Just noticed that Laucke also have a Super
Soft bread mix. Have you tried that one ?

Maybe I don't cook thick enough stuff.

Yep, you vegys don't.

Or maybe they should work more on making the microwaves more even so you
don't get so many hotspots.

That's not the problem. The problem is that with something
large like a leg of lamb, the microwaves get absorbed on
the outside so that if you blast it with full power of say 2KW
you will burn the outside and leave the inside uncooked.

Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
87213 wrote:


"William Gothberg" wrote in message
news On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 21:23:55 -0000, mike wrote:

On 12/29/2018 10:16 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:38:04 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 08:07:42 -0800, Bob F
wrote:

On 12/29/2018 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 9:23:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gill
wrote:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few
kW? They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use.* Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea.* More speed is not always
better.

Bill

+1

That about covers it.* Not sure how useful more power would be.
For
example,
last night I was thawing out a tomato sauce in a quart plastic
container.
The Panasonic has a defrost mode that uses about 30% power and
cycles that.


It gets the 30% power by cycling the 100% power on 30% of the time.

(By the way, adjusting the level does not actually change the
wattage.
It simply means the microwave will pulse on and off at its fixed
wattage
until the desired level is reached.)

https://lifehacker.com/5974788/famil...-cooking-a-joy


*That was true of the first generation of Microwaves, but the
current
"inverter" driver units actually CAN throttle the power. Inverter
microwaves are much better for defrosting AND cooking.

We've had ours for about 2 years now - replacing our original
that we
bought in about 1985.

BIG difference (but the old one would likely still be working by the
time this one dies)

Why is it called an invertor?* I thought an invertor was a device to
increase the voltage - like running 240V devices off a 12V car
battery.

And why on earth would you not want to cook on full power?* I've
never
had a reason to lower the power from the maximum of 800W.* I want the
meal as soon as possible!

There's been a lot of* nitpicking in this thread.

All microwaves reduce power by cycling between 0 and 100% power.
The relative power level is the duty factor of that on/off cycle.

Older microwaves switch the INPUT to the power transformer.
That also runs the filament.* The time to heat up the filament
is the limiting factor in how short you can make the on-time.
You get a minimum of about 10 seconds on-time.
That minimum time is plenty to make food explode.

Better microwaves are called "Inverter" microwaves.
I believe they're all licensed from Panasonic.
When I bought mine, it seemed that all the licensees had
dried up leaving Panasonic as the only locally available units.

It's my understanding that they heat the filament independently
and can have very short on-times.* Duty factor is the same as
the older microwaves, but the on-time can be much shorter.

Foods don't explode on low power like they used to.

Food is not uniform.* The effectiveness of microwaves decreases
as the food thickness increases.* There's a thermal time constant.
So, if you cook at lower average power for longer time,
you can warm the inside without seriously overcooking the outside
or having local boiling that makes food explode.

The minimum on-time really helps with that.* I haven't had food
explode since I got an Inverter microwave.* The defrost cycle
really does work well.

They're slightly more expensive, but it's worth it.

I've never exploded food on a non-invertor microwave.

Try microwaving an egg in its shell sometime.


Do it all the time, for ten seconds for one or two eggs to bring to
room temp from the fridge.

That's not cooking it.
He just said microwaving it

Just noticed that Laucke also have a Super
Soft* bread mix. Have you tried that one ?

Given up for a while, if I see it may try it.


Maybe I don't cook thick enough stuff.

Yep, you vegys don't.

Or maybe they should work more on making the microwaves more even so
you don't get so many hotspots.

That's not the problem. The problem is that with something
large like a leg of lamb, the microwaves get absorbed on
the outside so that if you blast it with full power of say 2KW
you will burn the outside and leave the inside uncooked.

On 12/29/2018 7:02 PM, FMurtz wrote:
William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:34:22 -0000, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

"William Gothberg" wrote:

I don't need a MW, but the usual 600W to 900W in domestic ovens is
pitiful. What's wrong with 2kW?

There are higher rating consumer units, but you have to look for
them. I had a
1.2kw range hood type that worked much better than the 900w types. I
think
commerical units (i.e. convenience store) can be found that are 1.8kw.

That said, what I find annoying is that the power control for every
consumer
microwave I've seen is duty cycle based. That is, so many seconds of
full power
followed by so many seconds of no power.

Some foods and defrosting would work much better if the actual power
level could
be adjusted. Panasonic claims to make an inverter based design, but
I'm not
convinced they actually adjust the outpout power.
They adjust the AVERAGE power at a rate much faster than the
thermal time constant of the food.

I'm unsure how magnetrons work, but what's the big deal with running
them at half power? Do they have to be on full power, and also can't
be cycled more quickly?
I don't think you can change the operating voltage far enough to
get a large enough range of power. And how would you do that anyway?
You'd have to use an inverter to do it efficiently. Might as well
just switch the power on and off directly. Everything works at
optimum efficiency or is off.

Anyway, I've never used a microwave on anything other than full power
- even when defrosting, which for some reason people think you have to
select "defrost". Why? It just takes longer. I can defrost food
much faster on full power.

Break an egg into a bowl. Stick it in the microwave on high.
Be ready with the cleaning supplies to get the egg off the inside
of your oven. The yoke usually explodes first.
If you break the yoke, the whites will explode anyway.
You really have to whip it up to prevent explosion.

You can get a similar effect with soup.

Because that is not defrosting it is cooking, Not remotely like
defrosting, methinks thou art a dill.


Another weird thing my current (Hyundai 800W) microwave does is to
switch off the heating completely for the last 15 seconds but continue
to run the fan, light, and turntable (if you've selected at least 4
minutes time). So er like why not just remove the food 15 seconds
earlier? Which I often do. Funnily enough nothing ever exploded.

Might have been a design tradeoff to let the magnetron run too hot
and need 15 seconds for it to cool down sufficiently.

I don't remember any explosion issues with my old 600W Amana.
My Panasonic Inverter on High will explode an egg faster than
you can say, "oh crap, I forgot to cover the dish."

"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
87213 wrote:


"William Gothberg" wrote in message
news On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 21:23:55 -0000, mike wrote:

On 12/29/2018 10:16 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:38:04 -0000, Clare Snyder

wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 08:07:42 -0800, Bob F
wrote:

On 12/29/2018 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 9:23:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gill
wrote:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW?
They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always
better.

Bill

+1

That about covers it. Not sure how useful more power would be.
For
example,
last night I was thawing out a tomato sauce in a quart plastic
container.
The Panasonic has a defrost mode that uses about 30% power and
cycles that.


It gets the 30% power by cycling the 100% power on 30% of the
time.

(By the way, adjusting the level does not actually change the
wattage.
It simply means the microwave will pulse on and off at its fixed
wattage
until the desired level is reached.)

https://lifehacker.com/5974788/famil...-cooking-a-joy

That was true of the first generation of Microwaves, but the
current
"inverter" driver units actually CAN throttle the power. Inverter
microwaves are much better for defrosting AND cooking.

We've had ours for about 2 years now - replacing our original that
we
bought in about 1985.

BIG difference (but the old one would likely still be working by
the
time this one dies)

Why is it called an invertor? I thought an invertor was a device to
increase the voltage - like running 240V devices off a 12V car
battery.

And why on earth would you not want to cook on full power? I've
never
had a reason to lower the power from the maximum of 800W. I want
the
meal as soon as possible!

There's been a lot of nitpicking in this thread.

All microwaves reduce power by cycling between 0 and 100% power.
The relative power level is the duty factor of that on/off cycle.

Older microwaves switch the INPUT to the power transformer.
That also runs the filament. The time to heat up the filament
is the limiting factor in how short you can make the on-time.
You get a minimum of about 10 seconds on-time.
That minimum time is plenty to make food explode.

Better microwaves are called "Inverter" microwaves.
I believe they're all licensed from Panasonic.
When I bought mine, it seemed that all the licensees had
dried up leaving Panasonic as the only locally available units.

It's my understanding that they heat the filament independently
and can have very short on-times. Duty factor is the same as
the older microwaves, but the on-time can be much shorter.

Foods don't explode on low power like they used to.

Food is not uniform. The effectiveness of microwaves decreases
as the food thickness increases. There's a thermal time constant.
So, if you cook at lower average power for longer time,
you can warm the inside without seriously overcooking the outside
or having local boiling that makes food explode.

The minimum on-time really helps with that. I haven't had food
explode since I got an Inverter microwave. The defrost cycle
really does work well.

They're slightly more expensive, but it's worth it.

I've never exploded food on a non-invertor microwave.

Try microwaving an egg in its shell sometime.


Do it all the time, for ten seconds for one or two eggs to bring to room
temp from the fridge.

That's not cooking it.
He just said microwaving it

But wouldn't be doing that to his eggs.

Just noticed that Laucke also have a Super
Soft bread mix. Have you tried that one ?

Given up for a while, if I see it may try it.


Maybe I don't cook thick enough stuff.

Yep, you vegys don't.

Or maybe they should work more on making the microwaves more even so
you don't get so many hotspots.

That's not the problem. The problem is that with something
large like a leg of lamb, the microwaves get absorbed on
the outside so that if you blast it with full power of say 2KW
you will burn the outside and leave the inside uncooked.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 13:23:55 -0800, mike wrote:

On 12/29/2018 10:16 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:38:04 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 08:07:42 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/29/2018 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 9:23:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gill wrote:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW?
They were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always better.

Bill

+1

That about covers it. Not sure how useful more power would be. For
example,
last night I was thawing out a tomato sauce in a quart plastic
container.
The Panasonic has a defrost mode that uses about 30% power and
cycles that.


It gets the 30% power by cycling the 100% power on 30% of the time.

(By the way, adjusting the level does not actually change the
wattage.
It simply means the microwave will pulse on and off at its fixed
wattage until the desired level is reached.)

https://lifehacker.com/5974788/famil...elf-with-your-
microwaves-power-settings-to-make-microwave-cooking-a-joy

That was true of the first generation of Microwaves, but the current
"inverter" driver units actually CAN throttle the power. Inverter
microwaves are much better for defrosting AND cooking.

We've had ours for about 2 years now - replacing our original that we
bought in about 1985.

BIG difference (but the old one would likely still be working by the
time this one dies)

Why is it called an invertor? I thought an invertor was a device to
increase the voltage - like running 240V devices off a 12V car battery.

And why on earth would you not want to cook on full power? I've never
had a reason to lower the power from the maximum of 800W. I want the
meal as soon as possible!

There's been a lot of nitpicking in this thread.

All microwaves reduce power by cycling between 0 and 100% power. The
relative power level is the duty factor of that on/off cycle.

Older microwaves switch the INPUT to the power transformer.
That also runs the filament. The time to heat up the filament is the
limiting factor in how short you can make the on-time.
You get a minimum of about 10 seconds on-time.
That minimum time is plenty to make food explode.

Better microwaves are called "Inverter" microwaves.
I believe they're all licensed from Panasonic.
When I bought mine, it seemed that all the licensees had dried up
leaving Panasonic as the only locally available units.

It's my understanding that they heat the filament independently and can
have very short on-times. Duty factor is the same as the older
microwaves, but the on-time can be much shorter.


I knew the inverter types could still only rely upon variable duty cycle
heating control like the earlier voltage doubling HT transformer/
rectifier/HV capacitor designs did. I just wasn't quite sure what the
benefit of an inverter over a simple voltage doubling circuit was until
you let on about the cathode heater/filament being able to remain fully
powered throughout the whole cycling period.

This 'cathode filament/heater always on' aspect isn't the only benefit
of an inverter type allowing a higher cycling frequency to be employed,
it also provides a well regulated HT voltage, free of the 50/60 Hz ripple
which spoils the efficiency of the magnetron in the older designs.

The HT voltage (and anode current - no longer affected by heating/
cooling cycles imposed upon the cathode) has to be kept to within a
fairly tight tolerance (by the standards typical of domestic white goods)
for optimum operation at the correct microwave frequencies.

The effect of changing anode voltage is analogous to the effect of how
hard you blow across the open top of a beer bottle (empty or partially
empty) to generate a musical tone. The stronger you blow, the higher the
sudden jump in pitch will be. The microwave frequency produced by a
magnetron is likewise affected by how strong a voltage is applied to its
anode and will jump in frequency just like a blown beer bottle and for
exactly the same analogous reason (electrons rather than air molecules
being involved in this case).

In short, the only way to control the power output of a magnetron
without detuning it from its optimum 'microwaving' frequency is by using
variable duty on/off cycling. There's no smooth continuous analogue power
control option in this case.

As for those large 2 and 3 KW microwave ovens used in commercial
kitchens, they use a much larger cooking cavity so that a bunch of "Five
Minute Meals" can be heated concurrently in the recommended 5 minutes
rather than be processed in batches of just one or two at a time.

The microwave energy doesn't magically focus in the deep interior of the
food and heat it from the inside outwards. The microwaves only penetrate
the first centimetre or two before losing sufficient of their energy in
this process so as to have insignificant effect on the deeper interior
which therefore relies upon conduction from the hotter outer portions to
raise its temperature sufficiently to kill any pathogenic micro-organisms
so as to eliminate the risk of food poisoning.

This, as has already been pointed out, takes time and, surprise
surprise, doubling the rate at which microwave energy is being poured
into the outer layers of the foodstuff in question, does not halve the
time required to complete the cooking process.

Indeed, as has also been pointed out, such an increased rate of energy
input will tend to overheat the outer layers so much so as to overcook
them. The increased temperature will simply result in a higher rate of
radiative and convective heat loss back into the cooking cavity with
rather less than you may have imagined making any useful contribution to
raising the deep interior temperature of the foodstuff in question.

HTH & HAND! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

I had a Phillips like that, it made no difference but the problem is one of
standing waves inside the cooking cavity, and hot and cold spots due to
those.
Brian

--
----- --
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message
news:cdlf2edpj9raao11bgl340cps5n4r2jtoh@None...
Dean Hoffman wrote:

Well, the microwave cooking instructions on a lot of things say to stir
halfway
through cooking time. That would lead me to think microwaves have the
same
issue as conventional ovens with the evenness factor.

They do. Some microwaves had rotating wave guides hidden above the cooking
chamber in an attempt to even things out. Haven't looked to see if they
still do
or just rely on the turntable, which doesn't work all that well. Suspect
the
density consistency and evenness of the water content of the item being
cooked
is the reason.

Oh deary me. Toys out of pram warning. alert alert...

Seriously, to get the same power out of a Microwave running on a lower
voltage the current is higher. I do not think the problem is the power at
all, its the way they work limiting what you can cook and how it cooks.
Besides you can now get combination ovens that cook the inside with
microwaves and the outside with direct heating.
I sometimes wonder if anyone on this list did any kind of simple science
at school at all.
Conduction of heat, radiated and convected heat and all of that hot
stuff. Rocket science it aint.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
On 12/29/2018 11:15 AM, Rod Speed wrote:


"William Gothberg" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:23:37 -0000, Bill Gill wrote:

On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW? They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Not a problem in Europe where everything is 240V. Another reason you
ought to stop that low voltage crap!

Another pathetic excuse for a troll.

Do you seriously have to hard wire all your washing machines,
dishwashers, tumble dryers, etc, etc?

Nope the higher power devices plug in.

And what on earth do you do with hoovers?

They work fine on 110V, stupid.

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always better.

It can take 5 minutes to warm something from frozen to eating
temperature.

Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

I see no reason that couldn't be made into 2 minutes.


William is famous for seeing no reason.

On 29/12/2018 18:21, % wrote:
On 2018-12-29 10:43 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:29:50 -0000, William Gothberg wrote:

On 2018-12-29 10:26 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:46:52 -0000, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 29/12/2018 13:43, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW?* They
were invented decades ago.

High power microwaves (1MW) are used in industry in for example ore
extraction/rock pulverizing.
1MW into a cup of water is not pretty, explodes the water contents and
breaks the cup.

I don't need a MW, but the usual 600W to 900W in domestic ovens is
pitiful.* What's wrong with 2kW?

too expensive

You can get a 700W microwave for £30.* Surely 2kW would be less than
triple that, so under £90.

and then re wire the house and when you use it ,
you can watch the hydro disk spin like a top

LOL. I have a 14.4kW electric boiler. That's what I call spin.

On 30/12/2018 01:27, Bob F wrote:
On 12/29/2018 3:20 PM, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dean Hoffman formulated on Saturday :
*Well,* the microwave cooking instructions on a lot of things say to
stir halfway
through cooking time.* That would lead me to think microwaves have
the same
issue as conventional ovens with the evenness factor.

I would expect the microwave energy to follow the inverse square law
and the energy to rapidly drop off the deeper it has to penetrate the
food, especially so if that food is a solid, with no convection
currents as in a liquid. So more power, will cook the outside too
quickly and leave the middle un-cooked or even cold.

Just like UHF TV has a harder time getting through rain, snow, trees and
walls than VHF.

That's why microwave ovens operate at 2.4GHz - the resonant
frequency/maximum absorption of energy in water molecules.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:09:29 +1100, FMurtz, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile Ozzietard, babbled again:

Why do you persist in posting waffle about which you know absolutely
nothing, twould be better to post on subjects you know or ask and
educate yourself about the other

Troll-feeding senile idiot STILL hasn't learnt what makes a troll tick! LOL

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:38:56 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Problem is that the ear to ear dog **** that makes it
completely unemployable stops that from happening.

And this coming from the obnoxious senile troll who himself keeps
nym-shifting to get out of people's killfiles time and again! LOL

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 03:18:01 +0000, Bill Wright, yet another braindamaged,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:

can cook slowly and evenly. Anyone who uses a microwave a lot will be
well aware of this. For items where convection can assist conduction
higher power can be fine, but not for large solid lumps of food.

Anyone who uses these groups will be aware that you are dealing with a known
sociopathic troll who keeps posting bull**** just to be able bait senile
morons like you! tsk

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:40:58 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


His problem is that he is a stupid vegy and he's too stupid to notice that
what works for vegys doesn't work for stuff like legs of lamb and pork etc.

He's just a real stupid attention-starved troll like you, senile Rot!

--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rot Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 03:20:28 +0000, Bill Wright, yet another braindamaged,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:



They are used judiciously.

Not much judiciousness in your handling of the obnoxious trolling Scottish
idiot, eh?

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:49:07 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Yeah, wanked himself completely blind long ago.

He no longer needs to wank as now he got YOU to suck him off, every time he
wants to be sucked off by you, senile idiot!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:02:10 +1100, FMurtz, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile Ozzietard, babbled again:

Because that is not defrosting it is cooking, Not remotely like
defrosting, methinks thou art a dill.

....but you love him anyway ...and keep sucking him off, as was his
intention.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 13:57:49 +1100, FMurtz, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile Ozzietard, babbled again:



They do not trust you poms, most of our small domestic microwaves are
1000,to 1200 watts

We can always trust YOU senile idiot to keep feeding the dumbest trolls.
It's clear now, dumb and senile definitely belong together! BG

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 03:34:41 +0000, Bill Wright, yet another braindamaged,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:


I don't find much use for the 1,200W setting. The only real use is for
heating water quickly when the kettle's broken. Even jacket spuds are
cooked unevenly. Thick soup needs to be stirred during cooking. Meat is
hopeless.

Admit it, you, like most senile idiots here, are THANKFUL that he keeps
asking retarded questions so you can give stupid answers that every half-way
intelligent person knows anyway.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:43:25 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Try microwaving an egg in its shell sometime.


Do it all the time, for ten seconds for one or two eggs to bring to room
temp from the fridge.

That's not cooking it.

It's still "microwaving" it, senile auto-contradictor!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 16:05:52 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


But wouldn't be doing that to his eggs.

Spare everyone your senile "humour", senile Rot!

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On 30/12/2018 03:18, Bill Wright wrote:
On 29/12/2018 17:35, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:15:05 -0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 29/12/2018 16:27, William Gothberg wrote:

It can take 5 minutes to warm something from frozen to eating
temperature.* I see no reason that couldn't be made into 2 minutes.

Conduction

Which would be way faster if the water content the microwaves were
hitting was heated hotter.

But the difference in temp between the outside and the inside of the
food would be greater and this could result in food that was both over-
and under-cooked. This is why microwave ovens have low settings, so food
can cook slowly and evenly. Anyone who uses a microwave a lot will be
well aware of this. For items where convection can assist conduction
higher power can be fine, but not for large solid lumps of food.

I don't know what the low settings are for. All the instructions I've
seen - e.g. on ready meals - say "full power". There is the defrost
setting, but microwaves aren't very good at defrosting as they don't
heat frozen water very well.

--
Max Demian

Brian Gaff wrote :
I had a Phillips like that, it made no difference but the problem is one of
standing waves inside the cooking cavity, and hot and cold spots due to
those.
Brian

I have not seen a rotating waveguide in a domestic micro for years. The
rotating plate in the base seems the better solution and less complex.

Bill Wright has brought this to us :
I don't find much use for the 1,200W setting. The only real use is for
heating water quickly when the kettle's broken. Even jacket spuds are cooked
unevenly. Thick soup needs to be stirred during cooking. Meat is hopeless.

I never cook meat in the micro, it is horrible. I do sometimes reheat
it. With all things apart from liquid, or with a high liquid content, I
stop and stir often. Spuds I rotate, to try to even out the cooking.

Max Demian has brought this to us :
There is the defrost setting, but microwaves aren't very good at defrosting
as they don't heat frozen water very well.

Mine defrosts just fine. You select the weight of the food, then press
go. Ice doesn't melt so easily, but once the outer begins to defrost,
penetration and absorbsion works just fine.

"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 30/12/2018 03:18, Bill Wright wrote:
On 29/12/2018 17:35, William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:15:05 -0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 29/12/2018 16:27, William Gothberg wrote:

It can take 5 minutes to warm something from frozen to eating
temperature. I see no reason that couldn't be made into 2 minutes.

Conduction

Which would be way faster if the water content the microwaves were
hitting was heated hotter.

But the difference in temp between the outside and the inside of the food
would be greater and this could result in food that was both over- and
under-cooked. This is why microwave ovens have low settings, so food can
cook slowly and evenly. Anyone who uses a microwave a lot will be well
aware of this. For items where convection can assist conduction higher
power can be fine, but not for large solid lumps of food.

I don't know what the low settings are for. All the instructions I've
seen - e.g. on ready meals - say "full power".

That's only true of heating microwave dinners etc.

Have a look at the instructions for doing rice
in a microwave, they don't say full power.

There is the defrost setting, but microwaves aren't very good at
defrosting as they don't heat frozen water very well.

That is just plain wrong. You do have to avoid cooking
what you are defrosting but a microwave does heat frozen
water just as well as not frozen water. Try it with an ice cube.

Brian Gaff wrote :
Seriously, to get the same power out of a Microwave running on a lower
voltage the current is higher. I do not think the problem is the power at
all, its the way they work limiting what you can cook and how it cooks.
Besides you can now get combination ovens that cook the inside with
microwaves and the outside with direct heating.

Our oven is a combi, micro, conventional oven and grill. We have only
ever used to as a micro and tested the other functions do work. The
extra facilities were mainly bought as a standby system to a gas double
oven and grill.

William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:34:10 -0000, William Gothberg wrote:

On 2018-12-29 10:32 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:56:26 -0000, Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

In article ,
Bill Gill writes:
On 12/29/2018 7:43 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW? They
were invented decades ago.
Higher powered microwaves would require higher powered electric
outlets, probably 220VAC (in the USA).

Also it is questionable whether higher powered ovens would be
practical for use. Getting warming times down to a couple of
seconds might not be a good idea. More speed is not always
better.

Most commercial microwave ovens are higher power - typically twice
that of a domestic oven (they often use a pair of magnetrons).
We have them in the office kitchen areas (I think they are 2kW).
One problem is that retail food products do not state cooking
times in commercial microwave ovens - we have warnings posted on
the ovens that they are much more powerful.

Is the average person not able to divide by two?

Also, not all food can
be heated faster - often heat conduction is still a critical part
of the process, and the ability of food to conduct heat limits
the power input some food products can absorb without burning
whilst other areas are still cold.

Then the oven needs to have a more even waveform.

There's no problem with standard socket outlets in most countries.
In Europe and many other countries outside America, standard
sockets are designed to provide 3kW or 3.5kW (depending on
country). Many domestic microwaves in Europe are combination ovens with
convection, fan, and infra-red (grill) heating too, and often
run at 2.5kW when using combination heating (with a 1kW magnetron).
In a domestic environment, combination heating is generally more
useful than simply a more powerful microwave.

Not when I want to heat something in 2 minutes, conventional heating
won't even get going in that time.

is that what your wife said

I'm not stupid enough to marry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXyT1vy3BII

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
Bill Wright has brought this to us :
I don't find much use for the 1,200W setting. The only real use is for
heating water quickly when the kettle's broken. Even jacket spuds are
cooked unevenly. Thick soup needs to be stirred during cooking. Meat is
hopeless.

I never cook meat in the micro, it is horrible. I do sometimes reheat it.
With all things apart from liquid, or with a high liquid content, I stop
and stir often.

Spuds I rotate, to try to even out the cooking.

I don't bother and never have unevenly cooked spuds.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 00:34:34 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

00:34 am in Australia? Are you about to go to bed or did you just get up
again, so you won't miss ANYTHING of what goes on here, you ****ed up
forsaken senile geezer? LOL

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 01:22:18 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


I don't bother and never have unevenly cooked spuds.

01:22 am in Australia! LMAO! ...and this abnormal senile cretin is UP and
trolling again! No, he is NOT going to bed at this time, he GETS UP between
1 and 4 am, every day! LOL

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 02:57:49 -0000, FMurtz wrote:

William Gothberg wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:46:52 -0000, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 29/12/2018 13:43, William Gothberg wrote:
Shouldn't we have faster microwaves by now giving out a few kW? They
were invented decades ago.

High power microwaves (1MW) are used in industry in for example ore
extraction/rock pulverizing.
1MW into a cup of water is not pretty, explodes the water contents and
breaks the cup.

I don't need a MW, but the usual 600W to 900W in domestic ovens is
pitiful. What's wrong with 2kW?

They do not trust you poms, most of our small domestic microwaves are
1000,to 1200 watts

That's not really much more is it? Not even twice as fast.