GB Wrote in message:
On 10/11/2017 14:43, wrote:

I've worked with ferals before - he's only semi feral. I've had him purring in my lap before now, but he won't come too near me as he knows I want to capture him.

In the Archers, they gave the pheasants grain soaked in alcohol, then
scooped them up when they were out cold.



That's Roald Dahl!
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Jim K


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Tim Lamb Wrote in message:
In message , Chris Hogg
writes
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:52:02 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 10/11/2017 14:43, wrote:

I've worked with ferals before - he's only semi feral. I've had him
purring in my lap before now, but he won't come too near me as he
knows I want to capture him.

In the Archers, they gave the pheasants grain soaked in alcohol, then
scooped them up when they were out cold.

Reminds me of when I was a kid, my parents put some left-over
brandy-soaked Xmas pud out for the birds. A robin really took a fancy
to it, and was decidedly unsteady for an hour or two afterwards!

Happened here with some spilled antifreeze.



Bet the ending was different...
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On Thursday, 9 November 2017 20:22:34 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 18:29:02 UTC, tabby wrote:

I need to capture a half-feral cat with a serious medical problem. I have a large wire cage that's not designed to be used as a trap. If I tie string/rope to the open door, pass it through the wire cage and run it along the ground, it would be possible to wait and pull the string once the cat enters. This won't work unless the door closes and at the same time a knot ties it shut. The knot needn't hold long, 10 seconds against a large strong cat should do the job. Question is, what knot should I use?

Good news: 2 cage-traps are now in place, and hopefully a 3rd will be tomorrow. Thanks for all the ideas, this time it didn't end up diyed, which is unusual. Was able to find a farm supplier in the area.

More good news: he's been captured. He's doing fine, and is currently sleeping after a major eatfest.


NT

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:25:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 20:22:34 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 18:29:02 UTC, tabby wrote:

I need to capture a half-feral cat with a serious medical problem. I have a large wire cage that's not designed to be used as a trap. If I tie string/rope to the open door, pass it through the wire cage and run it along the ground, it would be possible to wait and pull the string once the cat enters. This won't work unless the door closes and at the same time a knot ties it shut. The knot needn't hold long, 10 seconds against a large strong cat should do the job. Question is, what knot should I use?

Good news: 2 cage-traps are now in place, and hopefully a 3rd will be tomorrow. Thanks for all the ideas, this time it didn't end up diyed, which is unusual. Was able to find a farm supplier in the area.

More good news: he's been captured. He's doing fine, and is currently sleeping after a major eatfest.

Whilst I don't like to see any animal suffering (I even let / usher
wasps out of the house), about the only animal that I have never owned
that has caused me the most damage / mess / clearup is the (other
peoples?) cat.

Two have slashed the wallpaper in the downstairs toilet after climbing
in the window and falling into the toilet itself and the number of
times I've trodden in their sh1te in my *private / enclosed* back
garden and worse on my vegetable patch ... plus the damage done to
(covered) motorcycle saddles and scratches on the roofs of the cars.

Glad you took another one off the streets ... if only it would stay
off the streets ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Friday, 10 November 2017 22:58:15 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:25:03 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

More good news: he's been captured. He's doing fine, and is currently sleeping after a major eatfest.

Whilst I don't like to see any animal suffering (I even let / usher
wasps out of the house), about the only animal that I have never owned
that has caused me the most damage / mess / clearup is the (other
peoples?) cat.

Two have slashed the wallpaper in the downstairs toilet after climbing
in the window and falling into the toilet itself and the number of
times I've trodden in their sh1te in my *private / enclosed* back
garden and worse on my vegetable patch ... plus the damage done to
(covered) motorcycle saddles and scratches on the roofs of the cars.

Glad you took another one off the streets ... if only it would stay
off the streets ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Yes, they're so much better behaved than human kids. He will stay indoors, he just doesn't look after himself outside. He's unusually nutty.


NT

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 21:28:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 22:58:15 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:25:03 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

More good news: he's been captured. He's doing fine, and is currently sleeping after a major eatfest.

Whilst I don't like to see any animal suffering (I even let / usher
wasps out of the house), about the only animal that I have never owned
that has caused me the most damage / mess / clearup is the (other
peoples?) cat.

Two have slashed the wallpaper in the downstairs toilet after climbing
in the window and falling into the toilet itself and the number of
times I've trodden in their sh1te in my *private / enclosed* back
garden and worse on my vegetable patch ... plus the damage done to
(covered) motorcycle saddles and scratches on the roofs of the cars.

Glad you took another one off the streets ... if only it would stay
off the streets ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Yes, they're so much better behaved than human kids.

I can believe that.

He will stay indoors,

Good. I don't care if people have pets that don't stay indoors, just
if they don't, they shouldn't become a nuisance to other people (as
cats very often do and when the 'owners' can't often be 'held
responsible' (unlike with an unruly kid or dog)).

he just doesn't look after himself outside.

Ok.

He's unusually nutty.

We had a (rescue) dog (for 10 years) that 'went nutty' and we had him
put down. We did so mainly for him.


Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

Whilst I don't like to see any animal suffering (I even let / usher
wasps out of the house),

I just catch them in my hand to put them out. I wouldn't bother but SO
is a bit worried about them.

about the only animal that I have never owned
that has caused me the most damage / mess / clearup is the (other
peoples?) cat.

One doesn't own a cat. We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

On 10/11/2017 17:54, jim wrote:
GB Wrote in message:
On 10/11/2017 14:43, wrote:

I've worked with ferals before - he's only semi feral. I've had him purring in my lap before now, but he won't come too near me as he knows I want to capture him.

In the Archers, they gave the pheasants grain soaked in alcohol, then
scooped them up when they were out cold.



That's Roald Dahl!

It's a lot older than that.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...T18810404.2.18

puts it back to 1881, and I have a feeling it was an old story then.

Andy

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:43:19 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 10/11/2017 17:54, jim wrote:
GB Wrote in message:
On 10/11/2017 14:43, wrote:

I've worked with ferals before - he's only semi feral. I've had him
purring in my lap before now, but he won't come too near me as he
knows I want to capture him.

In the Archers, they gave the pheasants grain soaked in alcohol, then
scooped them up when they were out cold.



That's Roald Dahl!

It's a lot older than that.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...T18810404.2.18

puts it back to 1881, and I have a feeling it was an old story then.

Dahl also had the greyhound with ginger up its arese. Not sure how old
that is.

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My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 11/11/2017 18:22, Rob Morley wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:


Reminds me of my father-in-law many years back he had a 6 week old
kitten hiding under his shed...So he got a dustbin lid propped up with a
stick and tied a length of rope, then placed a saucer of milk underneath.
Kitten goes under FiL pulls the string and traps it. He then put his
hand under the lid to catch it, the kitten ripped it to shreds as well
has sinking its teeth in while he tried to shake it off, kitten then
fekced off!
FiL left a trail of blood from back garden to the kitchen sink, and
cursing like a trooper.
Big game hunter indeed, I couldnt stop laughing.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

Whilst I don't like to see any animal suffering (I even let / usher
wasps out of the house),

I just catch them in my hand to put them out.

Oh ... and never been stung Rob?

I wouldn't bother but SO
is a bit worried about them.

As is our daughter (who generally cares for all 'living things') but
since 'granny' assured her that 'wasps won't sting you if you keep
still' ... and she did and one did, she kills any that get in her way.

about the only animal that I have never owned
that has caused me the most damage / mess / clearup is the (other
peoples?) cat.

One doesn't own a cat.

According to the law (as least) you do ... (sometimes) ... especially
if I deprive someone of it etc. ;-(

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Daughter rescued a couple of rabbits a couple of years ago and then a
third fairly recently. One of the original two died (over 10 years old
we estimated) so she replaced it with another, rescued by the RSPCA
from a 'bad' pet shop.

After a very slow / gentle introduction (following all the std
advice), all was looking good between them all till one morning she
found the new (and fairly large) rabbit with a bit ripped out of the
end of it's ear (probably by the smallest one of the group). We took
it to the vets tonight, not only to check the wound but to check the
process she was using re the introduction and all was well. Apparently
these nice gentle wabbits can be pretty violent, sometimes fighting to
the death! ;-(

It when you see how far they can throw something, or what they can
lift or bite though do you realise how gentle they are generally being
with us!

.... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:07:12 +0000, ss wrote:

On 11/11/2017 18:22, Rob Morley wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:


Reminds me of my father-in-law many years back he had a 6 week old
kitten hiding under his shed...So he got a dustbin lid propped up with a
stick and tied a length of rope, then placed a saucer of milk underneath.
Kitten goes under FiL pulls the string and traps it. He then put his
hand under the lid to catch it, the kitten ripped it to shreds as well
has sinking its teeth in while he tried to shake it off,

Ouch.

kitten then
fekced off!

Probably the best thing, under the circumstances! ... ;-)

FiL left a trail of blood from back garden to the kitchen sink, and
cursing like a trooper.

I bet.

Big game hunter indeed, I couldnt stop laughing.

;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 13 November 2017 00:14:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Not a bit. Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Daughter rescued a couple of rabbits a couple of years ago and then a
third fairly recently. One of the original two died (over 10 years old
we estimated) so she replaced it with another, rescued by the RSPCA
from a 'bad' pet shop.

After a very slow / gentle introduction (following all the std
advice), all was looking good between them all till one morning she
found the new (and fairly large) rabbit with a bit ripped out of the
end of it's ear (probably by the smallest one of the group). We took
it to the vets tonight, not only to check the wound but to check the
process she was using re the introduction and all was well. Apparently
these nice gentle wabbits can be pretty violent, sometimes fighting to
the death! ;-(

It when you see how far they can throw something, or what they can
lift or bite though do you realise how gentle they are generally being
with us!

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience. Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone, if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is well. But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel. Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.


NT

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:14:27 +0000
T i m wrote:

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

I just catch them in my hand to put them out.

Oh ... and never been stung Rob?

The only time I've had a wasp sting was when I nearly inhaled a wasp
while out cycling. It didn't have much effect after the initial
startlement, possibly because being on my lip it was easy to suck the
poison out. (???)

One doesn't own a cat.

According to the law (as least) you do ... (sometimes) ... especially
if I deprive someone of it etc. ;-(

But the cat would consider you its designated care giver, as opposed to
a dog who thinks you're the pack leader and boss.

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Cats come in a wide spectrum of personality types, from chilled to
excitable, those that enjoy human attention and those that don't,
scavengers and hunters ...

Daughter rescued a couple of rabbits a couple of years ago and then a
third fairly recently. One of the original two died (over 10 years old
we estimated) so she replaced it with another, rescued by the RSPCA
from a 'bad' pet shop.

After a very slow / gentle introduction (following all the std
advice), all was looking good between them all till one morning she
found the new (and fairly large) rabbit with a bit ripped out of the
end of it's ear (probably by the smallest one of the group). We took
it to the vets tonight, not only to check the wound but to check the
process she was using re the introduction and all was well. Apparently
these nice gentle wabbits can be pretty violent, sometimes fighting to
the death! ;-(

Rabbits are very hormone-driven - neutering not only calms them down
but also massively reduces the occurrence of some cancers to which
they are otherwise very susceptible. In the wild (or not properly
cared for in captivity) they don't usually live more than three years.

It when you see how far they can throw something, or what they can
lift or bite though do you realise how gentle they are generally being
with us!

I've known quite a few rabbits too. The females tend to be stroppy and
territorial, the males (once neutered) are pretty chilled. They seem
to be happiest kept in a M/F pair, although we've had "extra" males
accepted after careful introduction. Their teeth are like little
chisels, they will easily puncture skin and can be used as a slashing
weapon too, they have big claws, pack a hefty kick and can flick wee in
your face. :-)

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

The neighbour's cat will attack you after seeking attention, then look
confused as if he doesn't know why he did it - I've found the best
approach is to not try to get away, then he doesn't bite or scratch as
hard, stops quicker and you can carry on fussing him. Possibly the
strangest cat I've ever known - a vet thinks he may have been
oxygen-deprived at birth.

On Monday, 13 November 2017 12:54:42 UTC, Rob Morley wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:14:27 +0000
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

But the cat would consider you its designated care giver, as opposed to
a dog who thinks you're the pack leader and boss.

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Cats come in a wide spectrum of personality types, from chilled to
excitable, those that enjoy human attention and those that don't,
scavengers and hunters ...

Daughter rescued a couple of rabbits a couple of years ago and then a
third fairly recently. One of the original two died (over 10 years old
we estimated) so she replaced it with another, rescued by the RSPCA
from a 'bad' pet shop.

After a very slow / gentle introduction (following all the std
advice), all was looking good between them all till one morning she
found the new (and fairly large) rabbit with a bit ripped out of the
end of it's ear (probably by the smallest one of the group). We took
it to the vets tonight, not only to check the wound but to check the
process she was using re the introduction and all was well. Apparently
these nice gentle wabbits can be pretty violent, sometimes fighting to
the death! ;-(

Rabbits are very hormone-driven - neutering not only calms them down
but also massively reduces the occurrence of some cancers to which
they are otherwise very susceptible. In the wild (or not properly
cared for in captivity) they don't usually live more than three years.

It when you see how far they can throw something, or what they can
lift or bite though do you realise how gentle they are generally being
with us!

I've known quite a few rabbits too. The females tend to be stroppy and
territorial, the males (once neutered) are pretty chilled. They seem
to be happiest kept in a M/F pair, although we've had "extra" males
accepted after careful introduction. Their teeth are like little
chisels, they will easily puncture skin and can be used as a slashing
weapon too, they have big claws, pack a hefty kick and can flick wee in
your face. :-)

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

The neighbour's cat will attack you after seeking attention, then look
confused as if he doesn't know why he did it - I've found the best
approach is to not try to get away, then he doesn't bite or scratch as
hard, stops quicker and you can carry on fussing him. Possibly the
strangest cat I've ever known - a vet thinks he may have been
oxygen-deprived at birth.

Sounds like pet-bite syndrome. Some general advice that might or might not suit you. Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place quickly. When petting you need to keep an eye out for signs of irritation like tail swishing. If that happens, switch to the introduction type of petting, where you offer them a hand to sniff and only pet as and when invited.

Sore/painful spots can also cause a sudden switch to biting.


NT

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 00:14:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Not a bit.

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.
snip

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't. I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not sure how one can (as
you admit in a later post). After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal'
of cats to some?

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 12:54:39 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:14:27 +0000
T i m wrote:

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

I just catch them in my hand to put them out.

Oh ... and never been stung Rob?

The only time I've had a wasp sting was when I nearly inhaled a wasp
while out cycling.

I've had them bounce off my face whilst cycling and one inside my
motorcycle crash helmet and got away with it. ;-(

It didn't have much effect after the initial
startlement, possibly because being on my lip it was easy to suck the
poison out. (???)

Neat (sorta). ;-(

One doesn't own a cat.

According to the law (as least) you do ... (sometimes) ... especially
if I deprive someone of it etc. ;-(

But the cat would consider you its designated care giver, as opposed to
a dog who thinks you're the pack leader and boss.

I was thinking more of the Law and the 'previous care giver', unless
you think the law is wrong regarding cats (and I think it is)?

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Cats come in a wide spectrum of personality types, from chilled to
excitable, those that enjoy human attention and those that don't,
scavengers and hunters ...

Sure ... however ... as 'companion animals' ... any that bite or
scratch for no 'justifiable reason' (given it is a companion animal
etc) need some personality re-adjustment. ;-)

snip

Rabbits are very hormone-driven - neutering not only calms them down

That did seem to be the case with her first two (the third was already
done, as was this recent one via the RSPCA).

but also massively reduces the occurrence of some cancers to which
they are otherwise very susceptible.

That's good then.

not properly
cared for in captivity) they don't usually live more than three years.

OK. So the one that just died they believe was around 10 years old so
is that even possible? (or is it like the school hamster). ;-)

It when you see how far they can throw something, or what they can
lift or bite though do you realise how gentle they are generally being
with us!

I've known quite a few rabbits too.

Ok ...

females tend to be stroppy and
territorial,

We have seen some of that with the 3 females so far ...

the males (once neutered) are pretty chilled.

That seems to fit as well (but we have only had one so couldn't really
tell etc).

They seem
to be happiest kept in a M/F pair, although we've had "extra" males
accepted after careful introduction.

So would you say that was more difficult than MFF Rob?

Their teeth are like little
chisels, they will easily puncture skin

It's funny ... three of them (so far) will take a small treat off you
very carefully, even if you hold it so very little of the treat is
exposed. The other thing (that looks like a small, white hare) feels
like it will take the treat *and* you finger if you aren't careful!
;-)

and can be used as a slashing
weapon too,

That might account for the tattered ear end then. ;-(

they have big claws,

I have helped daughter trim some and their lower hutch is on crazy
paving in the hope that will help keep their nails down?

pack a hefty kick

Yes, I've felt that and heard it as their warning .

and can flick wee in
your face. :-)

Ah, luckily not had that yet. ;-)

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

The neighbour's cat will attack you after seeking attention, then look
confused as if he doesn't know why he did it

Quite ... absolutely typical from my POV.

- I've found the best
approach is to not try to get away, then he doesn't bite or scratch as
hard,

I've gone further with nipping puppies by actually sticking my fingers
into their mouth and they soon get the message. ;-)

stops quicker and you can carry on fussing him.

I'd rather not bother after that. We were in a neighbours the other
day and she had a youngish cat (that I think she was regretting
getting) and it started rubbing itself up against my leg and hand. So
I stroked it and it started 'playing' but with claws and teeth. The
neighbour apologised and took it off me (I wasn't bothered as I am
much bigger and stronger than it weg) and it was all claws and teeth
with her too. ;-(

Possibly the
strangest cat I've ever known - a vet thinks he may have been
oxygen-deprived at birth.

I think they all are (or should be for longer ... using a sack and a
river) weg [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Only joking, there are more humane ways of doing it ...

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:18:57 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

Sounds like pet-bite syndrome. Some general advice that might or might not suit you. Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place quickly.

Ain't that the truth.

When petting you need to keep an eye out for signs of irritation like tail swishing. If that happens, switch to the introduction type of petting, where you offer them a hand to sniff and only pet as and when invited.

And this is supposed to be a 'companion animal'? Sounds like it would
be better off living on it's own somewhere?

Sore/painful spots can also cause a sudden switch to biting.

And if that was most other (and not even 'companion) animals, they
would just move away or possibly yelp (if a dog) etc. They would be
very unlikely to bite or scratch for such things.

I think cats are just pompous, arrogant and pointless. ;-)

When daughter was up the RSPCA place the other day they were 'petting'
the pigs [1], horses and goats and none of them bit her because they
had had enough attention (I'm not saying they couldn't, just that they
didn't, even though they were all much bigger than a cat).

Cheers, T i m

[1] From the photos they showed me it looked like the pig had gone
into a coma after getting a good 'scratching'. ;-)

On Monday, 13 November 2017 16:16:36 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:32:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 13 November 2017 00:14:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Not a bit.

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe that's their response to you. I don't normally get that.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.

I didn't say that. Their moods just change much faster than humans, you always need to pay attention with cats.

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

yes

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

Few people will handle big cats. But some can.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't. I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not sure how one can (as
you admit in a later post). After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal'
of cats to some?

Pay attention is the key mantra with cats. Cats pay much more attention to things than people, and expect us to do likewise. Fail to and people don't get along so well with them.

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.

Cheers, T i m

They're gentle when they bite/scratch, unless you really **** them off. It's almost always in response to people failing to pay attention.


NT

On Monday, 13 November 2017 16:51:39 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:18:57 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Sounds like pet-bite syndrome. Some general advice that might or might not suit you. Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place quickly.

Ain't that the truth.

When petting you need to keep an eye out for signs of irritation like tail swishing. If that happens, switch to the introduction type of petting, where you offer them a hand to sniff and only pet as and when invited.

And this is supposed to be a 'companion animal'? Sounds like it would
be better off living on it's own somewhere?

Sore/painful spots can also cause a sudden switch to biting.

And if that was most other (and not even 'companion) animals, they
would just move away or possibly yelp (if a dog) etc. They would be
very unlikely to bite or scratch for such things.

I think cats are just pompous, arrogant and pointless. ;-)

When daughter was up the RSPCA place the other day they were 'petting'
the pigs [1], horses and goats and none of them bit her because they
had had enough attention (I'm not saying they couldn't, just that they
didn't, even though they were all much bigger than a cat).

Cheers, T i m

[1] From the photos they showed me it looked like the pig had gone
into a coma after getting a good 'scratching'. ;-)

Your loss I guess

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 00:14:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:22:14 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:58:15 +0000
T i m wrote:

We have one that has adopted us - he's supposed
to live next door but apparently our house is better, although he's a
strange grumpy beast.

Aren't they all? weg

Not a bit.

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.
snip

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is
well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't.

Yeah, I was amazed that a mate of mine wondered
if a couple of collies would bite him when he showed
up at a garage sale and they ran up to him. They were
just being friendly. He has his own dogs too.

I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not
sure how one can (as you admit in a later post).

By understanding how they feel at the time, just like
with whether a dog is being friendly or warning you off.

After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal' of cats to some?

Sure.

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals*

Only by those who don't understand cats.

and so I wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch
me under *any* (non threatening) circumstances.

Because that's how some cats operate.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:53:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe that's their response to you. I don't normally get that.

I can't say I 'normally' get that but just often enough to know that
cats aren't what I would consider to be a good 'companion animal.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.

I didn't say that.

You said much of that?

"Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place
quickly." .... which of course is very likely to make them 'very
'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable'.

Their moods just change much faster than humans,

I wasn't comparing them with humans but most other 'companion
animals'.

you always need to pay attention with cats.

I could see how that might be acceptable advice if you were playing
with a tarantula or venomous snake, but they aren't really 'cuddly
pets' you would typically have loose in your house are they?


... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

yes

;-)

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

Few people will handle big cats.

By 'big cats' do you mean 'large domestic type cats' or actual 'big
cats'?

But some can.

Ok.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't. I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not sure how one can (as
you admit in a later post). After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal'
of cats to some?

Pay attention is the key mantra with cats.

No, 'don't have them as 'companion animals' I think is more
appropriate ... well, unless you give on your own on a farm with 50 of
them etc.

Cats pay much more attention to things than people, and expect us to do likewise.

*Expect us* ... tail wagging the cat again methinks!

Fail to and people don't get along so well with them.

But why do you consider that acceptable ... unless you are willing to
parallel keeping cats along with keeping snakes or tarantula?

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.


They're gentle when they bite/scratch, unless you really **** them off.

Oh I'm sure they are (considering etc), just that it's not something
anyone should have to put up with from a 'companion animal'. Now if it
was wild and you just threw it some food now and again I would
understand it all.

It's almost always in response to people failing to pay attention.

Now if that were a dog and it happened to do the same when actually
harassed by a child (poking it's fingers in it's eyes, or climbing on
it etc) then there would be cries to have the animal destroyed because
it would be considered 'unpredictable' or 'untrustworthy' etc?

A cat does it just because you haven't realised it only wanted you
stroking it for five minutes not six, and that's considered perfectly
reasonable shrug? ;-)

Maybe the next time one jumps onto my lap I'll wait till it goes to
sleep then throw it off because *I* have just decided I've had enough?

Now't as strange as folk!

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:56:41 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

[1] From the photos they showed me it looked like the pig had gone
into a coma after getting a good 'scratching'. ;-)

Your loss I guess

What, for them not bringing the pig home? If it were that or a cat ...
you would have been right. ;-)

But if you *are* talking about cats, you are very wrong mate and
that's something I've *learned* over 61 years now.

Ok, I could keep snakes, piranha, or a monitor lizard but I would be
considered 'reckless' if I let anyone near them (or them near any of
them, like keeping piranha in my swimming pool), without suitable
training, warning or protective equipment.

But apart from not wanting any of the above because of the risk to
others, I wouldn't consider any of them a true 'companion animal' as I
would say (typically) a dog (probably the ultimate of such). Even a
pot-bellied-pig, lama, goat or horse could become a 'good companion',
especially if hand reared etc but again, it's not so easy to take your
companion lama on the train or share the sofa with a horse.

But at least none of those are likely to just attack (bite / scratch)
their 'companion' human, or their humans friend, simply for stroking
them 60 seconds too long. ;-(

And yes, I know horses can bite and pigs can be very protective of
their young but again, they don't generally just 'lash out' for no
good reason, good reason by 'our' standards of 'a friend / companion'.

I don't hate cats, I just don't think they serve any purpose, outside
maybe catching mice on a farm (and wild birds and voles etc). It's the
very arrogance you seem to cite and accept from them that convinces me
they aren't for me (or many people looking for a true companion
animal').

Ok, if you can't have a dog, have something else but if you really
want a *dog*, a cat isn't a substitute (AIMHO of course). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. If you really are a 'car whisperer' there is a very good chance
you could get your own TV show and earn a fortune from the 'carers' of
many cats who would like come say in the matter. ;-)

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 05:03:56 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not
sure how one can (as you admit in a later post).

By understanding how they feel at the time, just like
with whether a dog is being friendly or warning you off.

Even sillier than you usually manage, and that's saying something.


After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal' of cats to some?

Sure.

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals*

Only by those who don't understand cats.

Even sillier than you usually manage, and that's saying something.

So, a cat has 'special needs' and needs 'understanding' before it can
make a good 'companion animal'? Great (not).

and so I wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch
me under *any* (non threatening) circumstances.

Because that's how some cats operate.

Exactly ... and why I don't like them or anything (or one) who acts in
such a way.

I'm not saying I couldn't 'keep' a cat, like I would 'keep' a turtle
or parrot (just chuck it some food and clean it out etc), I just
wouldn't want to if I was looking for a 'companion animal'.

Just different expectations I guess.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:53:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe that's their response to you. I don't normally get that.

I can't say I 'normally' get that but just often enough to know that
cats aren't what I would consider to be a good 'companion animal.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.

I didn't say that.

You said much of that?

"Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place
quickly." .... which of course is very likely to make them 'very
'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable'.

Their moods just change much faster than humans,

I wasn't comparing them with humans but most other 'companion
animals'.

you always need to pay attention with cats.

I could see how that might be acceptable advice if you were playing
with a tarantula or venomous snake, but they aren't really 'cuddly
pets' you would typically have loose in your house are they?

Some prefer the standoffish approach that cats have.

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

yes

;-)

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

Few people will handle big cats.

By 'big cats' do you mean 'large domestic type cats' or actual 'big
cats'?

But some can.

Ok.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all
is well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't. I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not sure how one can (as
you admit in a later post). After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal'
of cats to some?

Pay attention is the key mantra with cats.

No, 'don't have them as 'companion animals' I think is more
appropriate ... well, unless you give on your own on a farm with 50 of
them etc.

Cats pay much more attention to things than people, and expect us to do
likewise.

*Expect us* ... tail wagging the cat again methinks!

Fail to and people don't get along so well with them.

But why do you consider that acceptable ... unless you are willing to
parallel keeping cats along with keeping snakes or tarantula?

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.


They're gentle when they bite/scratch, unless you really **** them off.

Oh I'm sure they are (considering etc), just that it's not something
anyone should have to put up with from a 'companion animal'. Now if it
was wild and you just threw it some food now and again I would
understand it all.

It's almost always in response to people failing to pay attention.

Now if that were a dog and it happened to do the same when actually
harassed by a child (poking it's fingers in it's eyes, or climbing on
it etc) then there would be cries to have the animal destroyed because
it would be considered 'unpredictable' or 'untrustworthy' etc?

A cat does it just because you haven't realised it only wanted you
stroking it for five minutes not six, and that's considered perfectly
reasonable shrug? ;-)

Maybe the next time one jumps onto my lap I'll wait till it goes to
sleep then throw it off because *I* have just decided I've had enough?

Now't as strange as folk!

Cheers, T i m

Your puerile **** flushed where it belongs.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 05:03:56 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not
sure how one can (as you admit in a later post).

By understanding how they feel at the time, just like
with whether a dog is being friendly or warning you off.

After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal' of cats to some?

Sure.

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals*

Only by those who don't understand cats.

So, a cat has 'special needs' and needs 'understanding'
before it can make a good 'companion animal'?

Nope, some prefer the more standoffish approach cats have and
the fact that they can look after themselves much more too.

Its hilarious what sluts some cats are too.

Great (not).

and so I wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch
me under *any* (non threatening) circumstances.

Because that's how some cats operate.

Exactly ... and why I don't like them or
anything (or one) who acts in such a way.

Your problem.

I'm not saying I couldn't 'keep' a cat, like I would 'keep' a turtle
or parrot (just chuck it some food and clean it out etc), I just
wouldn't want to if I was looking for a 'companion animal'.

Cats can be both.

Just different expectations I guess.

Nothing to do with expectations, everything to do
with the fact that cats and dogs are very different.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 07:26:19 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Nothing to do with expectations, everything to do
with the fact that cats and dogs are very different.

Nothing to do with them being different, everything to do with what
you expect (or is typically expected) from a 'companion animal'.

"A pet or companion animal is an animal kept primarily for a person's
company, protection, or entertainment ... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet

So, whilst you do get indoor cats (the only kind that should be
allowed from my POV), many are often roaming the neighbourhood,
crapping in other people gardens, killing other peoples pet fish or
wildlife like frogs and birds (I have rescued some of each from cats
in the past) and damaging other people property (knocking things over
or scratching stuff up). I'm not sure how much 'company' the average
cat provides when they are allowed free access outside, and what
quality it is when they do?

Protection? The only protection I know re cats is the protection you
need from them. Not only their teeth and claws directly but the damage
they do to property (like the wallpaper in the downstairs toilet where
two cats have climbed in through the window, fallen into the toilet
and then slashed the wallpaper trying (in vain) to get out ... and the
mess (and disease) they leave behind *in my garden*.

Entertainment. 'Aw look, Mr Tiddles has just knocked a whole glass of
cola into my MacBook ... what is he like ...'. Yeah, a right giggle
I'm sure.

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:19:52 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:53:25 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe that's their response to you. I don't normally get that.

I can't say I 'normally' get that but just often enough to know that
cats aren't what I would consider to be a good 'companion animal.

so that's often their response to you. It's not their response to me.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.

I didn't say that.

You said much of that?

"Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place
quickly." .... which of course is very likely to make them 'very
'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable'.

thank you for confirming I didn't say what you said I did

Their moods just change much faster than humans,

I wasn't comparing them with humans but most other 'companion
animals'.

do you have a point?

you always need to pay attention with cats.

I could see how that might be acceptable advice if you were playing
with a tarantula or venomous snake, but they aren't really 'cuddly
pets' you would typically have loose in your house are they?

irrelevant

... Unlike cats, that will scratch or bite you, even when you are
being nice to them. ;-(

certainly isn't my experience.

Maybe you are a 'cat whisperer' in a way I generally am with all other
species of animal *except* cats.

yes

;-)

Ferals will, out of fear, but it's like anyone,

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

Few people will handle big cats.

By 'big cats' do you mean 'large domestic type cats' or actual 'big
cats'?

I mean big cats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_cat

But some can.

Ok.

if you deal with them in a way that doesn't provoke much fear then all is well.

I think you ether 'understand' animals or you don't. I have been known
to be able to pet animals that many others cant. That includes cats
btw ... till they (without me even touching them), decide to stick
their claws into me ... or bite (all be it not full power) for no
reason.

But cats do not like people that pay no mind to what they think & feel.

Well, apart from having a crystal ball, I'm not sure how one can (as
you admit in a later post). After all, isn't that part of the 'appeal'
of cats to some?

Pay attention is the key mantra with cats.

No, 'don't have them as 'companion animals' I think is more
appropriate ... well, unless you give on your own on a farm with 50 of
them etc.

Yet tens of millions of people in the uk get along just fine with domestic cats. Do you have any other stupid points to make?

Cats pay much more attention to things than people, and expect us to do likewise.

*Expect us* ... tail wagging the cat again methinks!

Fail to and people don't get along so well with them.

But why do you consider that acceptable ... unless you are willing to
parallel keeping cats along with keeping snakes or tarantula?

I accept that you have no idea

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.


They're gentle when they bite/scratch, unless you really **** them off.

Oh I'm sure they are (considering etc), just that it's not something
anyone should have to put up with from a 'companion animal'. Now if it
was wild and you just threw it some food now and again I would
understand it all.

I accept that you don't understand it all

It's almost always in response to people failing to pay attention.

Now if that were a dog and it happened to do the same when actually
harassed by a child (poking it's fingers in it's eyes, or climbing on
it etc) then there would be cries to have the animal destroyed because
it would be considered 'unpredictable' or 'untrustworthy' etc?

not from me, but I'm aware that some people think all animals should have unlimited tolerance of abuse from humans.

A cat does it just because you haven't realised it only wanted you
stroking it for five minutes not six, and that's considered perfectly
reasonable shrug? ;-)

Maybe the next time one jumps onto my lap I'll wait till it goes to
sleep then throw it off because *I* have just decided I've had enough?

Your choice.

Now't as strange as folk!

Very true


NT

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:46:54 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:56:41 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

[1] From the photos they showed me it looked like the pig had gone
into a coma after getting a good 'scratching'. ;-)

Your loss I guess

What, for them not bringing the pig home? If it were that or a cat ...
you would have been right. ;-)

But if you *are* talking about cats, you are very wrong mate and
that's something I've *learned* over 61 years now.

10s of millions in the UK have learnt quite the opposite

Ok, I could keep snakes, piranha, or a monitor lizard but I would be
considered 'reckless' if I let anyone near them (or them near any of
them, like keeping piranha in my swimming pool), without suitable
training, warning or protective equipment.

But apart from not wanting any of the above because of the risk to
others, I wouldn't consider any of them a true 'companion animal' as I
would say (typically) a dog (probably the ultimate of such). Even a

it's good that you relate to dogs. And childish to criticise people that relate to cats.

pot-bellied-pig, lama, goat or horse could become a 'good companion',
especially if hand reared etc but again, it's not so easy to take your
companion lama on the train or share the sofa with a horse.

But at least none of those are likely to just attack (bite / scratch)
their 'companion' human, or their humans friend, simply for stroking
them 60 seconds too long. ;-(

And yes, I know horses can bite and pigs can be very protective of
their young but again, they don't generally just 'lash out' for no
good reason, good reason by 'our' standards of 'a friend / companion'.

I don't hate cats, I just don't think they serve any purpose, outside
maybe catching mice on a farm (and wild birds and voles etc).

They're smart enough to have worked out how to have a good life without working for us. They still do bring immense benefits, as just one example it's no coincidence that kiddy gangsters have pretty much always failed to bond with cats as kids.

It's the
very arrogance you seem to cite and accept from them that convinces me
they aren't for me (or many people looking for a true companion
animal').

10s of millions have cats that are true companiion animals. Is that not obvious to you?

Ok, if you can't have a dog, have something else but if you really
want a *dog*, a cat isn't a substitute (AIMHO of course). ;-)

what a silly point


p.s. If you really are a 'car whisperer' there is a very good chance
you could get your own TV show and earn a fortune from the 'carers' of
many cats who would like come say in the matter. ;-)

I don't see how.


NT

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:57:21 UTC, T i m wrote:

So, a cat has 'special needs' and needs 'understanding' before it can
make a good 'companion animal'? Great (not).

To get along well with any human or animal requires some understanding of them from you. Odd that you appear to have not learnt that.

On Monday, 13 November 2017 21:35:35 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 07:26:19 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Nothing to do with expectations, everything to do
with the fact that cats and dogs are very different.

Nothing to do with them being different, everything to do with what
you expect (or is typically expected) from a 'companion animal'.

"A pet or companion animal is an animal kept primarily for a person's
company, protection, or entertainment ... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet

So, whilst you do get indoor cats (the only kind that should be
allowed from my POV), many are often roaming the neighbourhood,
crapping in other people gardens, killing other peoples pet fish or
wildlife like frogs and birds (I have rescued some of each from cats
in the past) and damaging other people property (knocking things over
or scratching stuff up). I'm not sure how much 'company' the average
cat provides when they are allowed free access outside, and what
quality it is when they do?

Protection? The only protection I know re cats is the protection you
need from them. Not only their teeth and claws directly but the damage
they do to property (like the wallpaper in the downstairs toilet where
two cats have climbed in through the window, fallen into the toilet
and then slashed the wallpaper trying (in vain) to get out ... and the
mess (and disease) they leave behind *in my garden*.

Entertainment. 'Aw look, Mr Tiddles has just knocked a whole glass of
cola into my MacBook ... what is he like ...'. Yeah, a right giggle
I'm sure.

Cheers, T i m

All that tells us is that you have failed to understand, relate to or appreciate cats. So what.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:38:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:19:52 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:53:25 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

Ok, most that I have come across have been then.

Maybe that's their response to you. I don't normally get that.

I can't say I 'normally' get that but just often enough to know that
cats aren't what I would consider to be a good 'companion animal.

so that's often their response to you. It's not their response to me.

It's their response to many people, often including their 'owners'.

Maybe if poorly treated or in pain.

Well, quite possibly but as you admit in a later post, they can also
be very 'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable.

I didn't say that.

You said much of that?

"Cats are famous for their emotional state varying all over the place
quickly." .... which of course is very likely to make them 'very
'touchy', temperamental and unpredictable'.

thank you for confirming I didn't say what you said I did

That's why I didn't put my first reference in direct quotes ... I was
talking of the spirit of what you said that still stands.

Their moods just change much faster than humans,

I wasn't comparing them with humans but most other 'companion
animals'.

do you have a point?

Now you have said that no (depending on how you read your previous
comment).

you always need to pay attention with cats.

I could see how that might be acceptable advice if you were playing
with a tarantula or venomous snake, but they aren't really 'cuddly
pets' you would typically have loose in your house are they?

irrelevant

Not if they are *supposed* to be a 'companion animals' it isn't, it's
the whole point!

snip

Ok ... daughter is also a backup-up dog warden and if dogs (even
loose ones) were as unpredictable as cats, I'm pretty sure she
wouldn't do it.

Few people will handle big cats.

By 'big cats' do you mean 'large domestic type cats' or actual 'big
cats'?

I mean big cats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_cat

Ok. So, did you have a point? I'm not sure how often you get a stray
lion in England (and if you did they would probably get a marksman to
shoot it, not send out the local animal roundup folk!

My point was, even though daughter has had to recover some fairly big
and often abused dogs, she hasn't (so far anyway) has the same
reaction from them as she has from stroking a similar number of cats.

snip

No, 'don't have them as 'companion animals' I think is more
appropriate ... well, unless you give on your own on a farm with 50 of
them etc.

Yet tens of millions of people in the uk get along just fine with domestic cats.

Yes, it sounds like 'getting along' is the best that most can hope for
.... not the ideal relationship for / with a 'companion animal' though
eh?

Do you have any other stupid points to make?

Sorry if I touched a nerve or confused you mate. ;-(

Cats pay much more attention to things than people, and expect us to do likewise.

*Expect us* ... tail wagging the cat again methinks!

Fail to and people don't get along so well with them.

But why do you consider that acceptable ... unless you are willing to
parallel keeping cats along with keeping snakes or tarantula?

I accept that you have no idea

No, I have every idea, I *understand* that many people who 'have cats'
really just provide bed and breakfast for them and aren't looking for
a true 'companion animal'. Many people who do this don't care that
*their* pet isn't in *their* house or garden half the day and night or
where it's crapping or what it's damaging or killing. And that's fine
.... and they could probably be equally happy with a pigeon or feeding
a local fox or badger. I would feel guilty if any pet of mine was
doing that.

How often do you 'go out' with your cat, go on holiday with your cat,
go on long walks with your cat, take your cat down the pub or on the
train or ferry etc? How much of a 'companion' is it when you are doing
those things? I'm not saying that you have to take your pet to such
places, just that if you have a cat or parrot you probably wouldn't
want to.

Why anyone would expect otherwise I'm not sure.

*Because*, these are supposed to be *companion animals* and so I
wouldn't *expect* it to bite or scratch me under *any* (non
threatening) circumstances.


They're gentle when they bite/scratch, unless you really **** them off.

Oh I'm sure they are (considering etc), just that it's not something
anyone should have to put up with from a 'companion animal'. Now if it
was wild and you just threw it some food now and again I would
understand it all.

I accept that you don't understand it all

Like I said, I understand it all, it is you who is confused what 'a
Pet' actually means. But hey, don't take my word for it, read
Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet

"A pet or companion animal is an animal kept primarily for a person's
company, protection, or entertainment ..."

Ok, how about this, if you don't call a cat 'a pet' in the same way
say a dog would be to most, I'll leave you to your relationship with
your semi wild animal.

It's almost always in response to people failing to pay attention.

Now if that were a dog and it happened to do the same when actually
harassed by a child (poking it's fingers in it's eyes, or climbing on
it etc) then there would be cries to have the animal destroyed because
it would be considered 'unpredictable' or 'untrustworthy' etc?

not from me, but I'm aware that some people think all animals should have unlimited tolerance of abuse from humans.

Quite, but my point wasn't about abusing anything, it was about the
animals reaction, even when being petted (and you have confirmed this
to be the truth).


A cat does it just because you haven't realised it only wanted you
stroking it for five minutes not six, and that's considered perfectly
reasonable shrug? ;-)

Maybe the next time one jumps onto my lap I'll wait till it goes to
sleep then throw it off because *I* have just decided I've had enough?

Your choice.

Except, much as though I would like to, I wouldn't, unless it took it
too far first. The point was that I really shouldn't need to should I?

Now't as strange as folk!

Very true

When we took the rabbit to the vets last night there were two other
animals there. A puppy pit bull thing that was just on a lead and as
soppy as anything (it loved having it's back scratched and for as long
as I continued doing it) ... our rabbit, out in daughters arms and
just watching what was going on (then went to sleep as she stroked it)
and a cat-in-a-box that probably couldn't be let out as it might run
away and they would never get it back? I wonder how it might react if
I went up and stroked it? What odds would you put on the outcome?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:57:21 UTC, T i m wrote:

So, a cat has 'special needs' and needs 'understanding' before it can
make a good 'companion animal'? Great (not).

To get along well with any human or animal requires some understanding of them from you.

Not so much dogs though eh ... as it is in their DNA to be 'mans best
friend'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_co..._communication

Odd that you appear to have not learnt that.

Odd to you because you think the behaviour of cats is perfectly
acceptable for a 'companion animal'. I do not.

Now I know I'm playing devils advocate here as I'm sure there are a
good few cats that are very good natured and laid back etc. However,
they are still basically wild animals and I understand, most (all but
the youngest, oldest and infirm possibly) could probably survive on
their own in the wild.

Therefore, it's quite easy to see why they are typically more
independent of humans and that's great if you don't actually want an
animal you have to be responsible for, 24/7 but to me, that is exactly
what a true companion animal is. If I wanted independence and / or not
to be part of each others life I'd get a tortoise. ;-) [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] And that's exactly why when our last (rescue) dog dies we didn't
get another because we know just how much responsibility we have to
and how much time we would want to spend with, a dog. So, if we
couldn't get another dog we didn't want anything else (the rabbits are
officially our daughters, live round my Mums and whilst it's good to
think they (are now) having a good life, they aren't a true 'companion
animal' in my eyes ... but they are obviously a good pet to / for
many). ;-)

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:46:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
snip

But if you *are* talking about cats, you are very wrong mate and
that's something I've *learned* over 61 years now.

10s of millions in the UK have learnt quite the opposite

I wonder though. I wonder what percentage of them only have a cat
because ...

They aren't around enough to properly care for a dog (but can still
care for a cat?).

They live somewhere where dogs aren't allowed (but can get away with a
cat because the things are roaming about everywhere anyway).

They don't *want* the responsibility of dog ownership. The cost of
getting them chipped and the general upkeep etc? A cat is a cheap /
lazy alternative?

FWIW, more people have dogs than cats in the UK and that's even with
all the above taken into consideration (and more people having more
cats than dogs).


Ok, I could keep snakes, piranha, or a monitor lizard but I would be
considered 'reckless' if I let anyone near them (or them near any of
them, like keeping piranha in my swimming pool), without suitable
training, warning or protective equipment.

But apart from not wanting any of the above because of the risk to
others, I wouldn't consider any of them a true 'companion animal' as I
would say (typically) a dog (probably the ultimate of such). Even a

it's good that you relate to dogs. And childish to criticise people that relate to cats.

And equally childish to suggest someone can't or doesn't relate to
cats? For me it's a completely practical and real world understanding
of the pros and cons of dogs versus pretty well anything else.

pot-bellied-pig, lama, goat or horse could become a 'good companion',
especially if hand reared etc but again, it's not so easy to take your
companion lama on the train or share the sofa with a horse.

But at least none of those are likely to just attack (bite / scratch)
their 'companion' human, or their humans friend, simply for stroking
them 60 seconds too long. ;-(

And yes, I know horses can bite and pigs can be very protective of
their young but again, they don't generally just 'lash out' for no
good reason, good reason by 'our' standards of 'a friend / companion'.

I don't hate cats, I just don't think they serve any purpose, outside
maybe catching mice on a farm (and wild birds and voles etc).

They're smart enough to have worked out how to have a good life without working for us.

Nice copout.

They still do bring immense benefits,

Oh, I'm sure they do, if you don't want the depth of companionship you
get from a dog.

as just one example it's no coincidence that kiddy gangsters have pretty much always failed to bond with cats as kids.

Or bond with any animal possibly? That's all down to EQ and
opportunity.

It's the
very arrogance you seem to cite and accept from them that convinces me
they aren't for me (or many people looking for a true companion
animal').

10s of millions have cats that are true companiion animals.

Whilst they may be considered so by their 'owners', they aren't in
comparison with the depth of real companionship you can get from a
dog. Of course, like all living creatures the characters can very and
so not all dogs are the same, just as not all cats are. However, the
fundamentals are that you can (fact) do and share more stuff ITRW than
you can a cat (or budgie or hamster etc).

Is that not obvious to you?

Yes, remember, I'm the one who does know the difference and has
*chosen* the best option. I'm not stuck with something that just
turned up at my door one day.

Ok, if you can't have a dog, have something else but if you really
want a *dog*, a cat isn't a substitute (AIMHO of course). ;-)

what a silly point

It's a perfectly good a valid point to anyone who has actually had a
good dog as a companion.


p.s. If you really are a 'car whisperer' there is a very good chance
you could get your own TV show and earn a fortune from the 'carers' of
many cats who would like come say in the matter. ;-)

I don't see how.

Well, all you need to do is send a short video of you turning a
completely out_of_control cat into a good, reliable and predictable
'companion animal' in a few hours and you will have cracked it. You
can do that can't you?

Or will it just be a video of you trying to herd cats? ;-)

So, rather than just repeating why you think I'm wrong and don't 'get'
how a cat *could* appeal to someone ... why don't you tell me why I am
wrong re my choice of 'companion animal' and *how* a cat would be in
any way better than a dog (for me)?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:34:21 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

Nor to me. I think cats must be reacting to T i m and seeing him as
dangerous.

That doesn't explain why *they* come up to me and often jump up onto
my lap and go to sleep (often to the surprise of their owners).

The cats I'm typically talking of are those where when you go in the
house, the owner explains that their cats are anti-social and are very
likely to scratch or bite. That said, they will often still end up
either on my lap or in my coat that I put down for them. They all
sound like the actions of a cat hater or chaser eh?

Cats we've had here only complain if you attempt to mess
with a painful spot, but even then it's only a growl and never claws or
a bite.

Which would be perfectly acceptable. Try telling that to the cat
owning neighbour who had *her* cat hanging off *her* arm by it's claws
and teeth whilst trying to get it off of us.

Our present cat prefers to drink from running water (such as a tap),
and since he's been cuddled from very young (less than 8 weeks),
demands physical contact from time to time.

How does he deal with physical contact when you feel like it?

He sleeps with us on the
bed and if I put a hand on his chest will gently wrap his paws (all
four) around my hand and go to sleep.

Awww. There is no doubt they can be cute, and so can a rabbit but I'm
unlikely to take either for a 20 mile walk or take the rabbit camping.
Even if I did, how well should I expect it mix with the dogs you often
find on campsites?

He's independent and has personality.

Most animals have. Of our last three (rescue) dogs (whippet terrier,
pedigree 'blue' whippet and a Lurcher) the whippet terrier must have
been here before it was so intelligent and knowing. The whippet might
as well have been a cat re how much attention she required or gave (by
comparison) and the lurcher was just stupid (but harmless, unless you
were a cat).

I couldn't be doing with a
sycophantic dog clicking his heels when I enter the room, raising a paw
in a Hitler salute, and saying "Jawohl!"

Nor could I ... do you know one like that then?

The strange things is, you seem to have got the whole dog / human
relationship thing round the wrong way.

What would actually happen is I would walk into the room, click my
fingers and all three dogs would come over to me and stand there
whilst I put the collars and leads on. In just the same way they would
stay in the back of the (estate) car when I opened the tailgate and
only jump out when I gave them the wave or command. They wouldn't jump
back into the car until I requested they did either (and only in the
estate bit). They (more often g) did what I wanted, when I wanted /
needed but they could be themselves in between.

I'm guessing some will have cats that are that good at being a 'good
companion', but like some parents who seem to pass off their kid being
out of control by saying they are just letting them 'express
themselves', many cat owners seem to have *learned* to accept that
they are obliged to put up with whatever their 'companion's feel they
want to do, with little actual say in the matter? Not a particularly
good 'companion' in my eyes.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Nothing to do with expectations, everything to do
with the fact that cats and dogs are very different.

Nothing to do with them being different, everything to do with what
you expect (or is typically expected) from a 'companion animal'.

"A pet or companion animal is an animal kept primarily
for a person's company, protection, or entertainment ... "

You havent established that most who do have
cats do that because they want a companion animal.

They may in fact prefer to have something that can look after itself much
better
than most other pets and they just like having them around the house etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet

So, whilst you do get indoor cats (the only kind that should be
allowed from my POV), many are often roaming the neighbourhood,
crapping in other people gardens, killing other peoples pet fish or
wildlife like frogs and birds (I have rescued some of each from cats
in the past) and damaging other people property (knocking things
over or scratching stuff up). I'm not sure how much 'company' the
average cat provides when they are allowed free access outside,

Most of those who have cats like that find they
do spend quite a bit of the time in the house too.

and what quality it is when they do?

Presumably they find that it suits them.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:51:38 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

All that tells us is that you have failed to understand, relate to or
appreciate cats. So what.

I think it proves I fully understand that (outdoor especially) cats
aren't a true 'companion animal'.

You havent established that most who have cats
do that to have have a true companion animal.

Therefore, as I'm not interested in
trying to domesticate a wind animal,

Domestic cats arent wild animals.

I don't need to relate to and therefore can't relate
to cats (as companion animals' even), let alone as
a 'useful companion animal', providing protection.

Your problem.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 18:57:21 UTC, T i m wrote:

So, a cat has 'special needs' and needs 'understanding' before it can
make a good 'companion animal'? Great (not).

To get along well with any human or animal requires some understanding of
them from you.

Not so much dogs though eh ...

Yes, dogs and cats are quite different. Shocking, I realise.

On Monday, 13 November 2017 22:54:27 UTC, T i m wrote:

snip
stupid troll plonked

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 17:34:14 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 22:54:27 UTC, T i m wrote:

snip
stupid troll plonked

Awww, don't run away and sulk NT, facts are facts, even if you don't
like them. ;-(

The whole cats versus dogs (or Linux v Windows or Leave v Remain)
discussions are mostly pointless because of the facts (or lack thereof
re Brexit). ;-)

eg, Linux can be a perfect desktop OS to some, just as a cat can make
a perfectly good companion animal to some, but Linux will never have
the mass appeal / support as Windows in the same way no cat would ever
replace a dog as 'mans best friend' (with all that implies).

They can't because they simply aren't as easy to integrate into a
human world alongside man, especially *outside* the house (ironic for
a hunter), not only because of the average size of a dog (typically
bigger than that of a cat) but a dog's trainability and natural
interest to please and capability to work for us, means they are
simply more practical than a cat, 'as a companion animal' as defined
by Wiki etc.

A 'companion' is someone who typically shares your life with you, and
if your life involves going outside than that's where your 'companion
cat, parrot or pot bellied pig' (typically) stops being so practical /
realistic.

If you are mostly housebound and / or simply don't want your companion
with you most the time and are happy to let *your* companion roam the
streets un-supervised ... then a cat is about the only animal you
could get away with (as you wouldn't be considered being 'responsible'
if you did that with most other animals and further would be held
responsible for any issues by law, unlike with a cat in most cases).


Cheers, T i m