In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid enough to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris Oxfords
to the Indians.

--
*WOULD A FLY WITHOUT WINGS BE CALLED A WALK?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid enough to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris Oxfords
to the Indians.

Nope, aircraft engines and wings to Airbus, docos and TV series to everyone
they are sold to now, same with scotch etc too. And financial services in
spades.

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate a bit of
spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they can get some sense
through to these intransigent wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate a bit of
spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they can get some sense
through to these intransigent wasters.

How does that sit with your view that the commissioners etc are
responsible to no one?

The fact that they can be overruled by the CoM in these negotiations

tim

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:03:42 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

Then you are justified in saying "No more Mr Nice Guy", and you have
evidence to back it up. Otherwise all the twerps will say we should have
negotiated harder.

Maybe there's some method to May's apparent madness after all? It won't
look very good at all for the EUrocrats if it continues to appear the
case that they're just being obstructive out of pure malice.

I don't agree

I don't think it will cost them anything at all.

Though that doesn't mean that I think we should let them

tim

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc
services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid enough
to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris Oxfords
to the Indians.

Nope, aircraft engines and wings to Airbus, docos and TV series to
everyone
they are sold to now, same with scotch etc too. And financial services in
spades.

you're replying to an assumption that we are no longer in the financial
services sector

tim

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc
services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid enough
to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris Oxfords
to the Indians.

Nope, aircraft engines and wings to Airbus, docos and TV series to
everyone
they are sold to now, same with scotch etc too. And financial services in
spades.

you're replying to an assumption that we are no longer in the financial
services sector

And only the likes of Wodney could think a country this size can exist on
those sort of exports. TV programme exports brought in all of 1.3 billion.
And every country who wants them will already buy them.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate
a bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they
can get some sense through to these intransigent wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...may-must-walk-
away-brexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

What would the UK gain by walking away?

If we walk away the EU is very unlikley to coming running after us
and implore us to come back and they will behave differently if we
negoatiate.

That's precisely what the are expected to do

They need there to be a deal

no deal is equally bad for them

In the eventuality that in 2 years the UK hasn't made many trade
deals and the UK's arrangements are all a bit of mess, then the
fallback option will be to buy and sell goods with the EU because
they are so close and our goods are to their specs.

who said that we were going to stop trading with the EU

That isn't what no deal means

Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more than we need
them. The reality is totally different.

No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we will
meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will turn up the
screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs)

by making it very very clear that isn't going to happen, they will see sense

In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we
will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will
turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and
regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully boys stirring
up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests of the
country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to hang on to what
suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

If the positions were reversed, The Mail, etc, would be frothing at the
mouth.

--
*My wife and I had words. But I didn't get to use mine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc
services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid enough
to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris Oxfords
to the Indians.

Nope, aircraft engines and wings to Airbus, docos and TV series to
everyone
they are sold to now, same with scotch etc too. And financial services in
spades.

you're replying to an assumption that we are no longer in the financial
services sector

That’s a stupid assumption. Britain will always be in the financial
services sector even when not in the EU. Same with aircraft engines,
wings, docos, TV series, book publishing, scotch etc etc etc.

A few of them might have some tariff applied to them like scotch
particularly, to support the Eire alternative product, but when that
has no real effect on those that prefer yankee bourbon etc now,
I can't see its going to have any real effect on the scotch trade either.

Might have more effect on the gin trade, but even then,
India does fine outside the EU so even then I doubt that too.

There is plenty that the EU will have to continue to get from
Britain, if only because they don’t produce it themselves.

They are hopeless at financial services too, lending billions to
Greece when anyone with even half a clue could see that that
was never going to be repaid in full, let alone the interest paid.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate
a bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they
can get some sense through to these intransigent wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...may-must-walk-
away-brexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

What would the UK gain by walking away?

No exit fee whatever. No longer paying the EU billions a year.
Free to do anything it likes about immigrants from the EU.
Free to do anything it likes policy wise on anything.

If we walk away the EU is very unlikley to coming
running after us and implore us to come back and
they will behave differently if we negoatiate.

Sure, but Britain is free to trade under the WTO rules, like all
of the USA, India, China, Japan, Australia, NZ etc etc etc all do.

In the eventuality that in 2 years the UK hasn't made many trade deals

It just uses the WTO rules, and the WTO just happens to be BY FAR
the most comprehensive trade deal the world has ever seen with
almost every country in the entire world a signatory. The only
non signatorys can by quite literally counted on the fingers of
just one hand and are just a few irrelevancys like North Korea.

and the UK's arrangements are all a bit of mess,

That is flagrantly dishonest given the WTO which Britain was in
fact very instrumental in setting up and is still heavily involved with.

then the fallback option will be to buy and sell
goods with the EU because they are so close

Distance has bugger all to do with it anymore, as
China and India and Bangladesh etc have discovered.

and our goods are to their specs.

They already are, so that’s a complete yawn.

Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more
than we need them. The reality is totally different.

They still need quite a bit of what Britain exports, like
aircraft engines, wings, docos, TV series, books etc for
the very simple reason that they don’t produce them
themselves. And Germany still need its exports to Britain.

Financial services in spades. The krauts can't even manage
to work out who is going to be able to pay back their
loans in full, let alone even just the interest on them.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:29:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And don't forget the far more important thing - financial etc
services.
Plenty EU centres are out to take that business away from London.

You mean the super-criminals the brought us to the very edge of ruin
in
2007/08, Dave. I say ****ing good riddance to those ****s. Let them
bankrupt the Germans and the French next time if they're stupid
enough
to
invite disaster upon themselves.

Ah - right. We're going to exist in the future by selling Morris
Oxfords
to the Indians.

Nope, aircraft engines and wings to Airbus, docos and TV series to
everyone
they are sold to now, same with scotch etc too. And financial services
in
spades.

you're replying to an assumption that we are no longer in the financial
services sector

And only the likes of Wodney could think a
country this size can exist on those sort of exports.

Britain clearly does currently.

TV programme exports brought in all of 1.3 billion.
And every country who wants them will already buy them.

And the EU will continue to buy those even when Britain has left.

In spades with aircraft engines because ALL of the
aircraft engines that matter come from outside the EU.

And wings because they don’t make anything like as good ones themselves.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate
a bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they
can get some sense through to these intransigent wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...may-must-walk-
away-brexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

What would the UK gain by walking away?

If we walk away the EU is very unlikley to coming running after us
and implore us to come back and they will behave differently if we
negoatiate.

That's precisely what the are expected to do

They need there to be a deal

No they don't. They are free to have no deal and for
Germany to keep exporting cars etc under WTO rules.

no deal is equally bad for them

Nope. WTO rules work fine for them too.

Yes, free trade would work better for both partys, but
would also see a few others considering leaving too
which looks bad for the EU just because they are
considering leaving. That's why Barnier is playing
silly buggers on an exit fee even tho Article 50
and the Lisbon Treaty say nothing about one.

In the eventuality that in 2 years the UK hasn't made many trade
deals and the UK's arrangements are all a bit of mess, then the
fallback option will be to buy and sell goods with the EU because
they are so close and our goods are to their specs.

who said that we were going to stop trading with the EU

Fools like the Plow**** who have never had a ****ing clue.

Its just project fear in spades. It was never going to happen.

That isn't what no deal means

Correct. Trade will continue under WTO rules because both
Britain and the EU are signatorys, just like almost everyone
else except a few completely irrelevancys like North Korea that
can be quite literally counted on the fingers of just one hand.

Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more than we need them.
The reality is totally different.

No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we
will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then"

I doubt even they think there is any possibility of that.

Its actually about discouraging anyone else from considering leaving.

(and then they will turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt
outs)

I doubt it. If Britain was stupid enough to decide to
not leave, they likely would be very happy with that
and wouldn't risk Britain deciding to leave anyway.

by making it very very clear that isn't going to happen, they will see
sense

Bet they don't. Bet they just accept that there is no agreement.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we
will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will
turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and
regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules

and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to suit
themselves.

Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully boys stirring
up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests of the
country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to hang on to what
suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

There will NEED to be a set of future trading rules between us and the EU
after we have left. This is for the benefit of everyone, EU included.

But the EU seem to think that they don't need to sit down and discuss this,
they got better things to do (apparently).

FTAOD There is no presumption that the above means that the end result of
the discussion should be specifically beneficial to the UK [1]. Just that
all those little things which NEED to be sorted out, are sorted out, before
the leaving date.

tim

[1] Except in the sense that it affects a larger portion of our world trade
than it does the EU's world trade, but that is inevitable - you can't use
that fact as a justification for a country not being able to exercise its
right to leave.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 04:42:08 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:

--snip--
and our goods are to their specs.

They already are, so thats a complete yawn.

Until they change the specs and we will have no say in these when
outside the EU.

Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more
than we need them. The reality is totally different.

They still need quite a bit of what Britain exports, like
aircraft engines, wings, docos, TV series, books etc for
the very simple reason that they dont produce them
themselves.

There's nothing to stop them making these things.

And Germany still need its exports to Britain.

So?

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 14:36:29 +0100, pamela wrote:

Britain has the right to leave the EU and Britain has the right to bear
the consequences of leaving. Meanwhile the EU has the right not to
provide any assistance. It's all part of realpolitik.

Yes, and *we* will have the right not to provide any assistance to the
rest of the bloc when Germany ups its bully-boy tactics against the other
member states as is in their nature to do.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 14:28:48 +0100, pamela wrote:


I don't think Theresa May will be such a great pal of Trump's. He will
discard her the minute he can't profit from her. Somehow, I don't
expect many trade deals with the US in our favour.

Brexit is happening whether you like it or not. Stop snivelling about it.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we
will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will
turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and
regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules

and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to suit
themselves.

Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully boys stirring
up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests of the
country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to hang on to what
suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

There will NEED to be a set of future trading rules between us and the EU
after we have left.

Nope, the WTO rules apply if there are no rules
agreed. That's the whole point of the WTO.

This is for the benefit of everyone, EU included.

Yes, it would be better if there was a free trade agreement
between Britain and the EU, if only to minimise the paperwork
involved with the considerable trade between the EU and
Britain that will continue one Britain has left. But its clearly
not essential, there is nothing like that between the EU and
the USA, Korea, India, Australia, NZ, China etc and trade
continue fine, under the WTO rules anyway.

But the EU seem to think that they don't need to sit down and discuss
this, they got better things to do (apparently).

They have in fact said all along that they wont
be discussing trade until the exit fee is agreed.

That is clearly just a negotiating tactic.

FTAOD There is no presumption that the above means that the end result of
the discussion should be specifically beneficial to the UK [1]. Just
that all those little things which NEED to be sorted out, are sorted out,
before the leaving date.

They don't NEED to be sorted out before the leaving date. The WTO
rules will apply to trade between Britain and the EU if they arent.

[1] Except in the sense that it affects a larger portion of our world
trade than it does the EU's world trade, but that is inevitable - you
can't use that fact as a justification for a country not being able to
exercise its right to leave.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 00:23 30 Sep 2017, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate a
bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they can
get some sense through to these intransigent wasters.

Walking out would be fun to watch for those of us enjoying the
whole spectacle.

Against all sound advice, Brexiteer bravado got us into this mess.
So why should anyone bend over backwards to help get out of the
mess?

There is no mess. Even if there is no agreement arrived at
and Britain just walks out, Britain will do fine out of the EU.

Remainers should sit back and enjoy a good laugh at the floudering.

Only a mindless bigoted arsehole would operate like that.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote:

[71 lines snipped]

The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't hold
back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over
Bombardier.

The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power.

Britain destroyed itself as a world power when it stupidly ****ed
immense amounts of money against the wall on two world wars.

Bombardier (which, BTW, is a Canadian company), is actually
all about the US protecting its subsidies to Boeing.

Boeing gets no subsidys from the US govt.

Probably the best thing about the EU was being able to tell the Americans
to **** off, and get away with it. Once we leave, May will be so far up
Trump's arse we won't be able to see her any more. Not all bad news, then.

Usual mindless bigotry.

On 01/10/2017 14:36, pamela wrote:
On 10:52 1 Oct 2017, tim... wrote:



"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think
that by bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very
good for them we will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave
then" (and then they will turn up the screw even higher and
strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules
and regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules

and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to
suit themselves.

Of course that's exactly what they are doing. Did we expect the
EU to apply the rule flexibly such that they were in our favour?
Dream on!

Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully
boys stirring up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us
anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests
of the country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to
hang on to what suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

There will NEED to be a set of future trading rules between us
and the EU after we have left. This is for the benefit of
everyone, EU included.

But the EU seem to think that they don't need to sit down and
discuss this, they got better things to do (apparently).

Don't fret over the EU doing damage to itself. It's quite big
enough to handle that.

FTAOD There is no presumption that the above means that the end
result of the discussion should be specifically beneficial to
the UK [1]. Just that all those little things which NEED to be
sorted out, are sorted out, before the leaving date.

Like any good negotiator, I suspect the EU will make sure those
very things (called "peanuts" in negotiating circles) are not
agreed unless we make significant concessions.

Also, in order to maximise the value to the EU of those
concessions they will delay such discussions until as late as
possible to impress upon the UK that it's staring a loss in the
face. No doubt Brexiteers will squeal.

tim

[1] Except in the sense that it affects a larger portion of our
world trade than it does the EU's world trade, but that is
inevitable - you can't use that fact as a justification for a
country not being able to exercise its right to leave.

Britain has the right to leave the EU and Britain has the right to
bear the consequences of leaving. Meanwhile the EU has the right
not to provide any assistance. It's all part of realpolitik.

And the fact that the EU would make it as didicult as possible, so as to
discourage others leaving, shows exactly why we need to leave.

No special deals, no benefits without costs is fair enough, but
deliberately preventing debate of things that need to be sorted out is not.

SteveW

In article , pamela
writes
On 20:49 28 Sep 2017, bert wrote:

In article , pamela
writes
On 17:38 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

Pamela wrote:


I do hope polite little Britain is truly ready for trade
negotiations where the going can get very rough.

You mean they come in with knuckle dusters? Or what do you
mean? In any case, you may recall that history didn't start on
whatever day it was when the EU took over trade negotiations.
The UK had been doing it for hundreds of years before that.

British pre-EU trade negotiations tended, more than usual, to
be at the end of an Imperial gun barrel and often involved
dark- skinned subjects of the Empire who had little say in what
their country agreed with London.

Every person is out for themself in a trade negotiation. Good
behaviour may have generated good will but we lost that when we
told the EU we were leaving.

It's time for us to grow up and stop whinging.

It's actually the remoaners who are whinging and throwing up the
phantom problems.

Once boisterous Brexiteers seem a bit subdued these days. They're
complaining about how negotiations aren't going as well as
expected.

Everything that needs to be said has been said. We're now totally bored
with remoaners repeating their failed arguments ad nauseam
We are in a weak position and we knowingly put ourselves there.

So waste no more time on it and go WTO - it won't actually cost
us much. I would just leave the NI border open and let the EU
sort it out.

WTO rules are said to cost the UK £6 or 7 billion.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk...o+rules+brexit

Since the referendum Brexiteers know that such surveys are wrong
and can be safely ignored. Bless the little dears.
Just what I'd expect from Guardian Independent etc. Exporters don't pay
the import tariff - the overseas customers pay it.
--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 09:20 29 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 20:49 28 Sep 2017, bert wrote:

In article , pamela
writes
On 17:38 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

Pamela wrote:


I do hope polite little Britain is truly ready for trade
negotiations where the going can get very rough.

You mean they come in with knuckle dusters? Or what do you
mean? In any case, you may recall that history didn't start
on whatever day it was when the EU took over trade
negotiations. The UK had been doing it for hundreds of years
before that.

British pre-EU trade negotiations tended, more than usual, to
be at the end of an Imperial gun barrel and often involved
dark- skinned subjects of the Empire who had little say in
what their country agreed with London.

Every person is out for themself in a trade negotiation.
Good behaviour may have generated good will but we lost that
when we told the EU we were leaving.

It's time for us to grow up and stop whinging.

It's actually the remoaners who are whinging and throwing up
the phantom problems.

Once boisterous Brexiteers seem a bit subdued these days.
They're complaining about how negotiations aren't going as well
as expected.

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

Too bad. It was to be expected.
SO you accept being bullied.
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes


"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:03:42 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

Then you are justified in saying "No more Mr Nice Guy", and you have
evidence to back it up. Otherwise all the twerps will say we should have
negotiated harder.

Maybe there's some method to May's apparent madness after all? It won't
look very good at all for the EUrocrats if it continues to appear the
case that they're just being obstructive out of pure malice.

I don't agree

I don't think it will cost them anything at all.

You're right. - it won't cost the Eurocrats anything. It will be the
people of the 27 member states who will suffer. But they don't care as
they can't be voted out.
Though that doesn't mean that I think we should let them

tim





--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and demonstrate
a bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany see if they
can get some sense through to these intransigent wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...may-must-walk-
away-brexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

What would the UK gain by walking away?
Two years.

If we walk away the EU is very unlikley to coming running after us
and implore us to come back and they will behave differently if we
negoatiate.

That's the whole point of walking away. Recognition that negotiating
with them is a waste of time.
In the eventuality that in 2 years the UK hasn't made many trade
deals and the UK's arrangements are all a bit of mess, then the
fallback option will be to buy and sell goods with the EU because
they are so close and our goods are to their specs.

Another remoaner who thinks trade will suddenly stop the day we leave.
Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more than we need
them. The reality is totally different.
Another remoaner with a vivid imagination. They do a substantial amount
of trade with us as we do with them. Therefore it makes sense to keep
trade barriers to a minimum - preferably zero.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by
bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we
will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will
turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and
regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

We joined the EEC of our own free will. We were denied a referendum on
the EU by Brown and the Lib Dems.
Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully boys stirring
up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

If you want to see bully boys you should look at the current Labour
Party.
Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests of the
country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to hang on to what
suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

So what are the great benefits of that club apart from free trade?
If the positions were reversed, The Mail, etc, would be frothing at the
mouth.

So you do read the Mail.
--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 10:52 1 Oct 2017, tim... wrote:



"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think
that by bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very
good for them we will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave
then" (and then they will turn up the screw even higher and
strip us of our opt outs)

You really need to think this through.

We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules
and regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste.

and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules

and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to
suit themselves.

Of course that's exactly what they are doing. Did we expect the
EU to apply the rule flexibly such that they were in our favour?
Dream on!

Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully
boys stirring up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave.

Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us
anymore.

But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests
of the country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to
hang on to what suits us regardless of the rules of that club.

There will NEED to be a set of future trading rules between us
and the EU after we have left. This is for the benefit of
everyone, EU included.

But the EU seem to think that they don't need to sit down and
discuss this, they got better things to do (apparently).

Don't fret over the EU doing damage to itself. It's quite big
enough to handle that.

I don't fret at all. It's too big too handle its problems, that is its
problem.
FTAOD There is no presumption that the above means that the end
result of the discussion should be specifically beneficial to
the UK [1]. Just that all those little things which NEED to be
sorted out, are sorted out, before the leaving date.

Like any good negotiator, I suspect the EU will make sure those
very things (called "peanuts" in negotiating circles) are not
agreed unless we make significant concessions.

So they don't want access to our intelligence and the backing of our
armed forces, the capital markets of London (unless they open subsidiary
banks in the City) etc. etc.
Also, in order to maximise the value to the EU of those
concessions they will delay such discussions until as late as
possible to impress upon the UK that it's staring a loss in the
face. No doubt Brexiteers will squeal.

Nope. WTO rules will apply - and we'll leave the NI border wide open for
our exports.
tim

[1] Except in the sense that it affects a larger portion of our
world trade than it does the EU's world trade, but that is
inevitable - you can't use that fact as a justification for a
country not being able to exercise its right to leave.

Britain has the right to leave the EU and Britain has the right to
bear the consequences of leaving. Meanwhile the EU has the right
not to provide any assistance. It's all part of realpolitik.

And to hell with the French wine makers and cheese makers. The German
car makers and all the others in Europe who export to the UK. The
Eurocrats will still get their salaries and their pensions.
--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 17:02 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:



"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 09:20:02 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being.

We need to walk out of these so-called 'talks' and
demonstrate a bit of spine. Let the industrialists in Germany
see if they can get some sense through to these intransigent
wasters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/30/theresa-may-
must-walk-away-brexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/

(And FWIW, I fully agree - they are taking us for suckers!)

tim

What would the UK gain by walking away?

If we walk away the EU is very unlikley to coming running after
us and implore us to come back and they will behave differently
if we negoatiate.

That's precisely what the are expected to do

They need there to be a deal

no deal is equally bad for them

I saw one estimate that no deal made EU GDP about 1 percent worse
off. That's a small price to pay for European cohesion from
showing other countries they should never try to do what Britain
is attempting.

That says it all really. The only way to keep the EU in one piece is by
threat. It's an admission that the EU carries no benefits other than
free trade.
In the eventuality that in 2 years the UK hasn't made many
trade deals and the UK's arrangements are all a bit of mess,
then the fallback option will be to buy and sell goods with the
EU because they are so close and our goods are to their specs.

who said that we were going to stop trading with the EU
That isn't what no deal means

If there are no trade agreements in place and our EU arrangements
as a member lapse then I believe we go to WTO rules.

Bositerous Brexiteers thought the EU needed us more than we
need them. The reality is totally different.

No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think
that by bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very
good for them we will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave
then" (and then they will turn up the screw even higher and
strip us of our opt outs)
by making it very very clear that isn't going to happen, they
will see sense

The world is not one big cuddly love-in and we should expect
another country to fully exploit its advantages over us. You can
call it bullying if you like but this is normal behaviour between
countries.

One would expect other countries to enter into negotiations in good
faith. This is patently lacking with the EU.
The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't hold
back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over
Bombardier.

Which is a Canadian company.
We need to be ready for a great deal more of this sort of thing as
the UK goes into into new trade deals with different countries
who, quite understandably, can't see why they should make life
easy for Britain.
They will look for mutual benefits of freeing up trade. The UK is a
large marketplace.
--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 11:28 1 Oct 2017, Huge wrote:

On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote:

[71 lines snipped]

The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't
hold back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over
Bombardier.

The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power.

I guess you mean the War Debt.

Bombardier (which, BTW, is a Canadian company),

Bombardier has significant manufacturing in the UK and the
governement's concern is the loss of jobs rather than the loss of
profit or taxes.

is actually all about the US protecting its subsidies to Boeing.

Probably the best thing about the EU was being able to tell the
Americans to **** off, and get away with it. Once we leave, May
will be so far up Trump's arse we won't be able to see her any
more. Not all bad news, then.

I don't think Theresa May will be such a great pal of Trump's. He
will discard her the minute he can't profit from her. Somehow, I
don't expect many trade deals with the US in our favour.
Another remoaner optimist.
--
bert

In article , pamela
writes
On 11:28 1 Oct 2017, Huge wrote:

On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote:

[71 lines snipped]

The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't
hold back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over
Bombardier.

The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power.

I guess you mean the War Debt.

Bombardier (which, BTW, is a Canadian company),

Bombardier has significant manufacturing in the UK and the
governement's concern is the loss of jobs rather than the loss of
profit or taxes.

Yes they used to make trains until Brown sold out to the Germans.
is actually all about the US protecting its subsidies to Boeing.

Probably the best thing about the EU was being able to tell the
Americans to **** off, and get away with it. Once we leave, May
will be so far up Trump's arse we won't be able to see her any
more. Not all bad news, then.

I don't think Theresa May will be such a great pal of Trump's. He
will discard her the minute he can't profit from her. Somehow, I
don't expect many trade deals with the US in our favour.

--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tjoepstil wrote:
The problem with that is everyone's going to suffer

no, .
Including the countries of the EU

no. The only people who will suffer are the members of the ruling EU
elite and their cronies..

You are mad if you think they will suffer. Such people are always the last
ones.

The ones who will suffer most are the poor in the UK, many of whom voted
for Brexit.

But once unskilled immigration is under control their wages will rise.
Surely as a good socialist you would welcome that - or are you a true
Marxist **** like McDonnell and Corbyn?
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Nah. They're part of the EU they'll do as they are told by Brussels.

Just like the UK does, then?

Which is a good reason for leaving.
Or does your jingoism extend to believing the UK somehow above such a
thing? Perfect in every way?


--
bert

On 01/10/2017 22:02, bert wrote:

Just what I'd expect from Guardian Independent etc. Exporters don't pay
the import tariff - the overseas customers pay it.

What a simplistic view.
The price is set by the competition.
If we have tariffs on our exports the price will still have to be less
than the competiition so less of the price will end up in the UK and in
effect the exporters have lost the value of the tariffs.

You don't appear to have a clue how this works but claim to.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:37:07 +0100, bert wrote:

Which is a good reason for leaving.

Just one among *millions* of excellent reasons! I can't understand why
Dave is being such a misery guts over it. I guess he'll change his
viewpoint after we're finally out and the benefits roll in.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:35:08 +0100, bert wrote:

But once unskilled immigration is under control their wages will rise.
Surely as a good socialist you would welcome that - or are you a true
Marxist **** like McDonnell and Corbyn?

He can't possibly be a Marxist cos he drives a Porsche and a true Marxist
would just take a bus everywhere.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:07:52 +0100, pamela wrote:

Please carry on. The negotiations are already providing great
entertainment. It looks like getting better.

It'll get better alright when we eventually walk out of those 'talks' (so-
called).



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:13:20 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

Not only. We used to have significant foreign investments in South
America. Sold to the Yanks for a song for agreement for the Yanks
selling us arms during WW2.

Well, let's just hope those "significant foreign investments" were in the
form of various sovereign bonds. ;-



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:27:19 +0100, bert wrote:

That says it all really. The only way to keep the EU in one piece is by
threat. It's an admission that the EU carries no benefits other than
free trade.

And that 'benefit' is an entirely artificial one, anyway. The EU is
essentially good for ***** all*.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:10:57 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 04:42:08 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:

--snip--
and our goods are to their specs.

They already are, so thats a complete yawn.

Until they change the specs and we will have no say in these when
outside the EU.

Then we change the product. Just as we would for product sent to any
other non-EU country.

This is trivially unimportant; stop trying to pretend it's a major
issue.


Gotta love those remoaning straw-clutchers! ;-



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 23:01:13 +0100, pamela wrote:

You couldn't predict it?

So you wanted to Remoan so as not to upset the Germans?? That's a very un-
British attitude you have there.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.