In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nigel Farage may be making a comeback and the Moggster is rising up
brexiteer popularity charts.

Says it all about Brexiteers, then.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
No. There are many who predicting this and several large companies
have expressed the desire to leave.

Oh, predictions, eh? Like those that by now there would be an extra
500k unemployed if we voted Leave?

Try a level playing field. There looks to be little chance now of us
actually cutting off all trade agreements with the EU as some Brexiteers
wanted.

which Brexiteers would that be?

AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement. It's the means by
which it is achieved that differs

tim

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:03:09 +0100, tim... wrote:


AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement. It's the means
by which it is achieved that differs
m

I'm not bothered in the least, personally. All I care about is that we
don't pay them a single penny piece for access to their single market
unless they have to pay us *more* for access to ours.



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On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 13:53:07 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes

350m a week


Gosh we could spend some of that on the NHS.

We don't have to spend *all* of it on the health service. Some tax cuts
wouldn't go amiss. Get the books in order for once. Yet another benefit
from leaving this cabal of crooks.



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On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 15:04:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

we will have more infludence on the EU by leaving it than we ever had
inside it.

Well that wouldn't be hard, since we had **** ALL influence before as
proven by Cameron's failed attempt to get them to throw us a few bones.



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On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 13:56:05 +0100, bert wrote:


I think you're probably right. Still once we've got our £350m per week
back we can spend some of it in the NHS on their mental health.


Yeah, or use some of it - even if it's only small amount - to mitigate CGT
for those who've had to live off near zero interest rates on their
capital for 10 ****ing years whilst our wonderful politicians and the
super-parasites in Brussels award themselves above inflation pay rise
after pay rise after pay rise...


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In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
No. There are many who predicting this and several large companies
have expressed the desire to leave.

Oh, predictions, eh? Like those that by now there would be an extra
500k unemployed if we voted Leave?

Try a level playing field. There looks to be little chance now of us
actually cutting off all trade agreements with the EU as some
Brexiteers wanted.

which Brexiteers would that be?

AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement. It's the means
by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already had one. They
want to have a deal on their terms only. Which is not an agreement.

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
Huh! If we remained a part of the EU we would have some say on how it
is run; outside the EU we have no say at all.

outside we no longer need to change it

That's a very naive attitude.

Just the usual drawbridge one.

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient in virtually
nothing, other than water. It has to trade to survive.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:03:57 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already had one.
They want to have a deal on their terms only. Which is not an agreement.

I'm hoping we leave without a trade deal in place. That way we can put
them at the very end of the queue for talks. And boast about it. :-D



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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
No. There are many who predicting this and several large companies
have expressed the desire to leave.

Oh, predictions, eh? Like those that by now there would be an extra
500k unemployed if we voted Leave?

Try a level playing field. There looks to be little chance now of us
actually cutting off all trade agreements with the EU as some
Brexiteers wanted.

which Brexiteers would that be?

AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement. It's the means
by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already had one. They
want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

tim



--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Mark wrote:
Huh! If we remained a part of the EU we would have some say on how it
is run; outside the EU we have no say at all.

outside we no longer need to change it

That's a very naive attitude.

Just the usual drawbridge one.

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient in virtually
nothing, other than water. It has to trade to survive.
And sugar according to the BBC this morning:-)


--
Tim Lamb

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
No. There are many who predicting this and several large
companies have expressed the desire to leave.

Oh, predictions, eh? Like those that by now there would be an
extra 500k unemployed if we voted Leave?

Try a level playing field. There looks to be little chance now of
us actually cutting off all trade agreements with the EU as some
Brexiteers wanted.

which Brexiteers would that be?

AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement. It's the
means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already had one.
They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word "negotiation" means.
And when they start practising what the word means.

the current English use of the word, which has been around for about 30
years, is to say "this is what we are going to do," listen to the other
side and then do what they intended all along, Southern Railway anyone?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 27/09/17 09:02, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* Mark wrote:
Huh!Â* If we remained a part of the EU we would have some say on
how it
is run; outside the EU we have no say at all.

outside we no longer need to change it

That's a very naive attitude.

Just the usual drawbridge one.

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient in
virtually
nothing, other than water. It has to trade to survive.
And sugar according to the BBC this morning:-)


Obviously if everyone were like plow****, it would be never be self
sufficient in anything except whining, and there's not much market for that.

No modern nation is 'self sufficient'. No nation ever was. Romans
occupied Britain for tin gold and copper.

China imports vast quantities of coal and iron ore. China exports rare
earth metals to the world.

Remoaners are like little children who are taken to Town for the first
time and say 'but surely Daddy can't spend his whole life here when he
isn't at home, just working?'

The unbelievable stupidity of remoaners is to equate 'No trade deal'
with 'no trade'

If we end up charging quid pro quo import tariffs for Spanish
courgettes, someone will build a desalination plant and grow them in
Morocco. Or Nigeria. Or somewhere else outside the EU. We could build
heated greenhouses running on left wing bull**** and grow them here.
There's plenty of it.

Its all a matter of price.


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/17 14:49, Tim Streater wrote:


Tory MEPs always complained that Kipper MEPs didn't attend or pull
their weight in such committees. AIUI, St Nige was on the Fisheries
Committee and never attended it (or only once).

On the other hand Nigel has a better attendance record than Nick clegg
did when he was an MEP.

Typical UKIP supporter. Search for someone who does a worse job than
Farage makes him a saint.

--
*Welcome to **** Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already had one.
They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Lots of bluster on here, then.

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word "negotiation"
means. And when they start practising what the word means.


ITYM gives in to our demands.

The whole basis of the Brexiteer argument - they need us more than we need
them. So they will do just what we want eventually.

Have you won the lottery recently?

--
*Haunted French pancakes give me the crepes.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word "negotiation"
means. And when they start practising what the word means.

the current English use of the word, which has been around for about 30
years, is to say "this is what we are going to do," listen to the other
side and then do what they intended all along, Southern Railway anyone?

So very true, Charles.

--
*England has no kidney bank, but it does have a Liverpool.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 23:59:29 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Ah - right. You dislike the idea of one country helping another. And
the principle that as that country become richer, it contributes to
others.

At least you're being honest.

You want us to build up other countries while our own people are
sleeping on the streets?

But surely this is exactly what you want? It's up to the individual to
look out for themselves.

And so many families are living in fuel
poverty having to choose between heating and eating?

Perfect. Means they will work for pennies.

Do you not think
we should sort out our own problems before making any grandiose
Cosmopolitan gestures?

Typical right wing 'logic'. Except for doing anything meaningful about
poverty at home, of course.

--
*Speak softly and carry a cellular phone *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:19:17 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient in
virtually nothing, other than water. It has to trade to survive.

We're certainly self-sufficient in immigrants, Dave. If the EU is such a
great project and delivering for the citizens, what are they all doing
over here??



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protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:19:17 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient in
virtually nothing, other than water. It has to trade to survive.

We're certainly self-sufficient in immigrants, Dave. If the EU is such a
great project and delivering for the citizens, what are they all doing
over here??

You need to ask your Tory government - who despite promising to restrict
immigration has done precisely nothing about the numbers. Even non EU
immigration.

--
*There are two kinds of pedestrians... the quick and the dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/09/17 13:27, pamela wrote:
On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?


Well no, they are not. In fact they are behaving in a way that is likely
to destroy the EU completeley.


Did we honestly think the EU would follow an exaggerated British
sense of fair play?

Just wait until we start trade negotiations with non-EU countries
because they too will most probably not go the way we like.

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear...


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome. Because
if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will just walk away.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you want. The
EU just walks into the room, plonks down their demands, and expects us
to knuckle forehead, open our wallet and say "Help yourself".

and you know that? were you there?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 15:13:56 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome. Because
if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will just walk away.

The UK needs the EU every bit as much as the reverse. Walking away
would be cutting the nose off to spite the face.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you want.
The
EU just walks into the room, plonks down their demands, and expects us
to knuckle forehead, open our wallet and say "Help yourself".

The government seems to be saying "Help yourself". They don't have a
clue.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word "negotiation"
means. And when they start practising what the word means.


ITYM gives in to our demands.

The whole basis of the Brexiteer argument - they need us more than we need
them.

AS MUCH AS

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

because it risks them getting nothing

It was reasonable to expect that they wouldn't be quite so bullying

Did we honestly think the EU would follow an exaggerated British
sense of fair play?

well no

but they could at least says "that's a good offer" occasionally

Just wait until we start trade negotiations with non-EU countries
because they too will most probably not go the way we like.

it's much easier to walk away from those though

There is no "must have a deal" case for bilateral trade deals with
individual middling countries

There are plenty of fish in the sea if one country asks for too much

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 15:13 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU
into negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which
maximises the outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome.
Because if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will
just walk away.

Why do we think we have a right to intervene in what the Eu choose
to do to itself.

because it's pretending that it's doing something else

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:37 27 Sep 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/09/17 09:02, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman
(News)" writes
In article , Â
Mark wrote:
Huh! If we remained a part of the EU we would have some
say on
how it
is run; outside the EU we have no say at all.

outside we no longer need to change it

That's a very naive attitude.

Just the usual drawbridge one.

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient
in virtually nothing, other than water. It has to trade to
survive.

And sugar according to the BBC this morning:-)


Obviously if everyone were like plow****, it would be never be
self sufficient in anything except whining, and there's not much
market for that.

No modern nation is 'self sufficient'. No nation ever was.
Romans occupied Britain for tin gold and copper.

China imports vast quantities of coal and iron ore. China
exports rare earth metals to the world.

Remoaners are like little children who are taken to Town for the
first time and say 'but surely Daddy can't spend his whole life
here when he isn't at home, just working?'

The unbelievable stupidity of remoaners is to equate 'No trade
deal' with 'no trade'

If we end up charging quid pro quo import tariffs for Spanish
courgettes, someone will build a desalination plant and grow
them in Morocco. Or Nigeria. Or somewhere else outside the EU.
We could build heated greenhouses running on left wing bull****
and grow them here. There's plenty of it.

Its all a matter of price.

It's true that the market will determine the price. If we wish to
pay the price then we will get the goods.

However the price of goods from non-EU countries may end up being
higher than at present. Perhaps much higher.

so we just carry on buying from the EU then.

Sorry, you don't seem to understand international trade. It is um,
international

if one country offers us a poor deal you just go somewhere else.

This idea that e.g. NZ can ramp up the price of its butter after we have
left is a nonsense. If it wants to sell us its butter it has to compete on
price. Otherwise we don't buy it from them. Simples

The fact the EU levies tariffs and we may not does not, of itself,
ensure cheaper goods.

It does mean that the ROW will compete on a level playing field, and if it
does have lower costs of production will be able to undercut the EU price as
they will be no tariff disadvantage.

A vendor country may require the UK to
restrict certain sensitive exports to their country or makes
changes to the tariff arrangements for those goods.

Nonsense

No county imposes restrictions on another when they turn up at the door
saying can we buy the products that you have freely advertised as wanting to
sell (except ion the reselling of the item purchased, that is, but your
original claim doesn't seem to be saying that)

And it certainly can't insist on discriminating tariffs for other items
being imposed - WTO rules disallow discriminating tariffs, so no country
could every comply with such a request even if they were minded to do so.

One recent survey showed only 4% of retailers (who are getting
info passed down their supply chains) think prices will not rise.

such surveyed are meaningless. they are simply a compilation of people
guess work

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 23:59:29 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Ah - right. You dislike the idea of one country helping another. And
the principle that as that country become richer, it contributes to
others.

At least you're being honest.

You want us to build up other countries while our own people are
sleeping on the streets?

But surely this is exactly what you want? It's up to the individual to
look out for themselves.

And so many families are living in fuel
poverty having to choose between heating and eating?

Perfect. Means they will work for pennies.

Do you not think
we should sort out our own problems before making any grandiose
Cosmopolitan gestures?

Typical right wing 'logic'. Except for doing anything meaningful about
poverty at home, of course.


There is no poverty at home.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/17 14:49, Tim Streater wrote:


Tory MEPs always complained that Kipper MEPs didn't attend or pull
their weight in such committees. AIUI, St Nige was on the Fisheries
Committee and never attended it (or only once).

On the other hand Nigel has a better attendance record than Nick clegg
did when he was an MEP.

Typical UKIP supporter. Search for someone who does a worse job than
Farage makes him a saint.


Farage is a saint!

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

Did we honestly think the EU would follow an exaggerated British
sense of fair play?

Just wait until we start trade negotiations with non-EU countries
because they too will most probably not go the way we like.

Bet they do.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:37 27 Sep 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/09/17 09:02, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman
(News)" writes
In article , Â
Mark wrote:
Huh! If we remained a part of the EU we would have some
say on
how it
is run; outside the EU we have no say at all.

outside we no longer need to change it

That's a very naive attitude.

Just the usual drawbridge one.

Odd, really, for a country like ours which is self sufficient
in virtually nothing, other than water. It has to trade to
survive.

And sugar according to the BBC this morning:-)


Obviously if everyone were like plow****, it would be never be
self sufficient in anything except whining, and there's not much
market for that.

No modern nation is 'self sufficient'. No nation ever was.
Romans occupied Britain for tin gold and copper.

China imports vast quantities of coal and iron ore. China
exports rare earth metals to the world.

Remoaners are like little children who are taken to Town for the
first time and say 'but surely Daddy can't spend his whole life
here when he isn't at home, just working?'

The unbelievable stupidity of remoaners is to equate 'No trade
deal' with 'no trade'

If we end up charging quid pro quo import tariffs for Spanish
courgettes, someone will build a desalination plant and grow
them in Morocco. Or Nigeria. Or somewhere else outside the EU.
We could build heated greenhouses running on left wing bull****
and grow them here. There's plenty of it.

Its all a matter of price.

It's true that the market will determine the price. If
we wish to pay the price then we will get the goods.

However the price of goods from non-EU countries may
end up being higher than at present. Perhaps much higher.

Even sillier than you usually manage given that the CAP is
deliberately designed to prop up very small scale inefficient
european agriculture, particularly in France etc and the non
EU countries exporting to Britain have highly efficient modern
agriculture instead. There's a reason NZ lamb and dairy is
MUCH cheaper than what is produced in France.

Even stuff like wheat and rice is much more
efficiently produced outside the EU than inside it.

The fact the EU levies tariffs and we may not
does not, of itself, ensure cheaper goods.

The tariffs are there because if they weren't, those in the EU
would be buying from those lower cost non EU countrys.

A vendor country may require the UK to restrict
certain sensitive exports to their country

Have fun listing even a single example of that.

or makes changes to the tariff arrangements for those goods.

Not allowed under the WTO rules.

One recent survey showed only 4% of retailers (who are getting
info passed down their supply chains) think prices will not rise.

But it remains to be seen if they have a clue on that and whether
they are talking about tariffs or just the temporary sag in the pound

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome. Because
if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will just walk away.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you want. The
EU just walks into the room, plonks down their demands, and expects us
to knuckle forehead, open our wallet and say "Help yourself".

and you know that? were you there?

Don’t need to be, there were others that were who reported
what happened. They just proclaimed that until the exit fee
was agreed on, they wouldn’t even discuss trade agreements.

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 15:13:56 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We already
had one. They want to have a deal on their terms only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU into
negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which maximises the
outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome. Because
if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will just walk away.

The UK needs the EU every bit as much as the reverse.
Walking away would be cutting the nose off to spite the face.

That's bull****. All of the USA, Japan, Korea, India, Australia,
NZ etc etc etc all do fine without any agreement with the EU.

Yes, a free trade agreement would be useful, but not
essential. The WTO rules, by far the most comprehensive
trade agreement the world has ever seen, works fine.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you want.
The EU just walks into the room, plonks down their demands, and
expects us to knuckle forehead, open our wallet and say "Help yourself".

The government seems to be saying "Help yourself".

Even sillier than you usually manage, and that's saying something.

They don't have a clue.

They havent been stupid enough to be into paying any exit fee,
something for which there is no mention of in Article 50, let alone
the treaty of lisbon.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
There is no "must have a deal" case for bilateral trade deals with
individual middling countries

There are plenty of fish in the sea if one country asks for too much

So which 'fish' do you think we could do a deal with - to provide the same
value of trade and services we currently have with the EU?

--
*In "Casablanca", Humphrey Bogart never said "Play it again, Sam" *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 23:59:29 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Ah - right. You dislike the idea of one country helping another. And
the principle that as that country become richer, it contributes to
others.

At least you're being honest.

You want us to build up other countries while our own people are
sleeping on the streets?

But surely this is exactly what you want? It's up to the individual to
look out for themselves.

And so many families are living in fuel
poverty having to choose between heating and eating?

Perfect. Means they will work for pennies.

Do you not think
we should sort out our own problems before making any grandiose
Cosmopolitan gestures?

Typical right wing 'logic'. Except for doing anything meaningful about
poverty at home, of course.


There is no poverty at home.

So you're saying Mr Doom was lying? Again?

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Who said anything about friendly and fair. Article 50 binds the EU to
negotiate.

Negotiate what? The terms of our exit, yes. But not anything after that.


If they don't want to do that in good faith then that will
be noted.

By whom, exactly? Oh - I forgot. The EU court of human justice.

--
*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 17:38 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 15:13 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We
already had one. They want to have a deal on their terms
only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU
into negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which
maximises the outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome.
Because if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will
just walk away.

Why do we think we have a right to intervene in what the Eu
choose to do to itself. Let it be.

If the EU wants to **** itself up, fine with me.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you
want. The EU just walks into the room, plonks down their
demands, and expects us to knuckle forehead, open our wallet
and say "Help yourself".

Actually I think negotiation does mean aiming to get everything
you want.... and more if possible. We need to put aside out
British notions of fairness. The Queensbury rules don't apply
here.

What has any of that to do with anything. The point of
negotiations is to achieve an outcome. You do that by deciding
what your red lines are and what matters you can give a little
on. If you think there's room for manoeuvre, but you are not
authorised to go past some line, you refer back home and see
whether you might be authorised to give a little here if they
give a little there. Then perhaps both sides agree on that and
things move on.

The trouble is that the EU has no one to refer back to. Well, it
has I suppose, but not in any practical sense as for any give on
their part they'd have to refer back to whichever set of bodies
decided what their opening gambit was going to be. Barnier has
been accorded no latitude, so it's not surprising that he is
unable to negotiate. All he's allowed to do is dictate.

The fact is the EU does not much care about getting to an
agreement. We are fooling ourselves, and we weem to be doing just
that, if we think they should be highly motivated to get a good
result quickly. If they drag it out and we struggle then they
will be achiving one of their objectives, namely to show other
countries how foolish it is to leave the EU.

There is no intention on their part to sit around supping warm
beer or cups of tea until merriment breaks out on all sides and
hands get shaken and all go home happily ever after..... even if
we entertain thoughts of such bucolic nonsense.

Are you a loony? You're sounding like it.

I am describing the loony expectations that some people in the UK
seem to have about expecting negotiations to be all friendly and
fair.

The EU may be adopting unusual strategems including brinkmanship
but all is fair in love and war.

This is the bleeding obvious. Of course, bad faith is not
acceptable.

Bad faith is an effective negotiating ploy if it gets the person
what they want.

I do hope polite little Britain is truly ready for trade
negotiations where the going can get very rough.

You mean they come in with knuckle dusters? Or what do you mean?
In any case, you may recall that history didn't start on
whatever day it was when the EU took over trade negotiations.
The UK had been doing it for hundreds of years before that.

British pre-EU trade negotiations tended, more than usual, to be
at the end of an Imperial gun barrel

That’s bull**** with almost all of the 20th century.

and often involved dark-
skinned subjects of the Empire who had little say in what their
country agreed with London.

That’s bull**** post war.

Every person is out for themself in a trade negotiation.

Not true either with the current fad of free trade agreements.

Good behaviour may have generated good will but
we lost that when we told the EU we were leaving.

The UK never had it with the EU since long before that.

It's time for us to grow up and stop whinging.

Yep, you remoaners better get used to the fact that
the majority who bothered to vote voted to leave.

We are in a weak position

Another lie with the immense amount
of money Britain sends to the EU.

and we knowingly put ourselves there.

And get to stop sending them all that money now.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
There is no "must have a deal" case for bilateral trade deals with
individual middling countries

There are plenty of fish in the sea if one country asks for too much

So which 'fish' do you think we could do a deal with - to provide the same
value of trade and services we currently have with the EU?

I've already given you the numbers

the 85% of world trade that is not EU trade

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 18:09 27 Sep 2017, tim... wrote:

It's amusing to watch Johnny Englander puff and pant that it's not
fair. Why should I care? The Brexiteers made this mess so they
can clear it up.

The problem with that is everyone's going to suffer

Including the countries of the EU

tim

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/17 14:49, Tim Streater wrote:


Tory MEPs always complained that Kipper MEPs didn't attend or pull
their weight in such committees. AIUI, St Nige was on the Fisheries
Committee and never attended it (or only once).

On the other hand Nigel has a better attendance record than Nick clegg
did when he was an MEP.

Typical UKIP supporter. Search for someone who does a worse job than
Farage makes him a saint.


Farage is a saint!

Oh I must have missed that visit to the Vatican

tim