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#281
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 23:51:43 +0100, pamela wrote:
On 23:41 1 Oct 2017, Cursitor Doom wrote: On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:07:52 +0100, pamela wrote: Please carry on. The negotiations are already providing great entertainment. It looks like getting better. It'll get better alright when we eventually walk out of those 'talks' (so- called). I can't wait. Neither can I. -- This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition. |
#282
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 01/10/17 23:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:27:19 +0100, bert wrote: That says it all really. The only way to keep the EU in one piece is by threat. It's an admission that the EU carries no benefits other than free trade. And that 'benefit' is an entirely artificial one, anyway. The EU is essentially good for ***** all*. Oh yes, its really really good at ****ing all itrs citizens .. -- Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons that sound good. Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist) |
#283
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 01/10/17 23:06, pamela wrote:
For the most part, the EU was mutually beneficial for those who were in it. Only the politiciƄns, Frech Farmers and German car makers Everyne else got a **** deal -- The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with what it actually is. |
#284
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 01/10/17 23:14, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:37:07 +0100, bert wrote: Which is a good reason for leaving. Just one among *millions* of excellent reasons! I can't understand why Dave is being such a misery guts over it. I guess he'll change his viewpoint after we're finally out and the benefits roll in. No. He will never admit he is wrong. I have friends like Dave. One of them admitted that all his cxointacts with local politicians he liked and got on with the 'squirearchy' but he was a card carrying Labour man all his days, and died still Believing in the Cause. Every single Labour government in his lifetime had been the Wrong Labour government.... -- The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with what it actually is. |
#285
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
"pamela" wrote in message ... On 22:03 1 Oct 2017, bert wrote: In article , pamela writes On 09:20 29 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote: In article , pamela wrote: On 20:49 28 Sep 2017, bert wrote: In article , pamela writes On 17:38 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote: Pamela wrote: I do hope polite little Britain is truly ready for trade negotiations where the going can get very rough. You mean they come in with knuckle dusters? Or what do you mean? In any case, you may recall that history didn't start on whatever day it was when the EU took over trade negotiations. The UK had been doing it for hundreds of years before that. British pre-EU trade negotiations tended, more than usual, to be at the end of an Imperial gun barrel and often involved dark- skinned subjects of the Empire who had little say in what their country agreed with London. Every person is out for themself in a trade negotiation. Good behaviour may have generated good will but we lost that when we told the EU we were leaving. It's time for us to grow up and stop whinging. It's actually the remoaners who are whinging and throwing up the phantom problems. Once boisterous Brexiteers seem a bit subdued these days. They're complaining about how negotiations aren't going as well as expected. No, I'm complaining about how irresponsible the EU is being. Too bad. It was to be expected. SO you accept being bullied. You couldn't predict it? assuming that's an ironic comment are you suggesting that we shouldn't be allowed to leave, just because the other side wont negotiate properly tim |
#286
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
"pamela" wrote in message ... On 21:30 1 Oct 2017, Steve Walker wrote: And the fact that the EU would make it as didicult as possible, so as to discourage others leaving, shows exactly why we need to leave. For the most part, the EU was mutually beneficial for those who were in it. If the UK chooses to leave then it can not complain that it is missing out on the advantages of being a member. the point is that the EU and the UK DO have a trading relationship that trading relationship WILL continue once we have left and FTAOD, it will, be the largest trading partner outside the EU that the EU have. and in order to make that as easy as possible for EVERYONE we need to sit around the table and discuss the agreements for doing so But they seem to think that they don't need to do that. And the only reasons that I can see why anyone would be so STUPID is because they think that by doing this we will crawl back and ask to stay in(when the will stiff us again by saying "only if you lose all your opt outs) No deal is as bad for them as it is for us. Messing around with the trading WILL cost them mega billions. That it is a smaller part of their total GDP than ours does not make it an insignificant amount. for every UK lorry stuck in a 12 hour queue to pass customs there will be a FRENCH lorry stuck in a 12 hour queue to pass customs for every brit with a professions certificate travelling to the EU to perform his professional work having his qualification queried as valid, there will be a EU citizen with some professional certificate having his qualification being queried as valid for ever Brit turning up at a French Hospital expecting to be covered by his EHIC card and being turned away, there will be a French citizen turning up at an UK hospital expecting to be covered by his EHIC card and being turned away etc etc This isn't about special favours It's about a continuation of normal life and you think that it's OK for the EU to negotiators to say "not our problem, you sort it out" tim |
#287
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
in 1629216 20171001 211320 Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela wrote: On 11:28 1 Oct 2017, Huge wrote: On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote: [71 lines snipped] The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't hold back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over Bombardier. The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power. I guess you mean the War Debt. Not only. We used to have significant foreign investments in South America. Sold to the Yanks for a song for agreement for the Yanks selling us arms during WW2. Not just South America, all British investments in the USA had to be sold. |
#288
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
"Bob Martin" wrote in message ... in 1629216 20171001 211320 Tim Streater wrote: In article , pamela wrote: On 11:28 1 Oct 2017, Huge wrote: On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote: [71 lines snipped] The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't hold back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over Bombardier. The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power. I guess you mean the War Debt. Not only. We used to have significant foreign investments in South America. Sold to the Yanks for a song for agreement for the Yanks selling us arms during WW2. Not just South America, all British investments in the USA had to be sold. why do I keep thinking of dog pills? ..... |
#289
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
tim... wrote: We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste. and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to suit themselves. Really? How come? May etc doesn't want to simply leave the EU. She wants to set up a new trade etc deal at the same time. Surely even you have noticed this? The rules for leaving the EU don't cover this. They cover leaving only. Any attempt to set up a new deal comes after that. This was said by the EU from the off. But that hasn't stopped May etc trying to impose her own 'rules' on the EU. -- *No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#290
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote: Britain has the right to leave the EU and Britain has the right to bear the consequences of leaving. Meanwhile the EU has the right not to provide any assistance. It's all part of realpolitik. And the fact that the EU would make it as didicult as possible, so as to discourage others leaving, shows exactly why we need to leave. What very odd logic. No special deals, no benefits without costs is fair enough, but deliberately preventing debate of things that need to be sorted out is not. It's is absolutely no problem if we just wish to negotiate the separation deal from the EU. That could be done well within the timescale. But May wants a new deal involving trade and services. -- *Why is a boxing ring square? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#291
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 01/10/17 23:14, Cursitor Doom wrote: On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:37:07 +0100, bert wrote: Which is a good reason for leaving. Just one among *millions* of excellent reasons! I can't understand why Dave is being such a misery guts over it. I guess he'll change his viewpoint after we're finally out and the benefits roll in. No. He will never admit he is wrong. I have friends Some things are beyond belief. -- *Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#292
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , tim... wrote: We joined the EU of our own free will. Agreed to all the rules and regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste. and we have given our notice to leave as required by the rules and the EU are now trying to re-write these leaving rules to suit themselves. Really? How come? May etc doesn't want to simply leave the EU. She wants to set up a new trade etc deal at the same time. she wants to agree trading details I agree but that is to be expected and is not the same thing as a trade deal the trade deal is a nice to have, but an agreement of trading terms is a must have - for both sides, and yet the EU seem to think that they can dispense with it. Surely even you have noticed this? The rules for leaving the EU don't cover this. They cover leaving only. and they require the parties to sit down and agree terms for separation Any attempt to set up a new deal comes after that. Except that the UK have been offering the EU the carrot that we will be more amenable to they demands for a divorce payment if they offer us a free trade deal than if they don't but they seem to think that they should be entitled to the carrot regardless. This was said by the EU from the off. But that hasn't stopped May etc trying to impose her own 'rules' on the EU. I don't believe that she has imposed any rules (she might have tried, but hasn't succeeded) |
#293
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:10:57 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote: In article , Mark wrote: On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 04:42:08 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote: "pamela" wrote in message ... On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote: --snip-- and our goods are to their specs. They already are, so thats a complete yawn. Until they change the specs and we will have no say in these when outside the EU. Then we change the product. Just as we would for product sent to any other non-EU country. This is trivially unimportant; stop trying to pretend it's a major issue. Neither you nor I know whether this will be a major issue. Many Brexiters are claiming that the EU is making things as difficult as possible for the UK - why should this be any different? |
#294
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On Saturday, 30 September 2017 17:25:13 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim... wrote: No the reality is the the EU are a bunch of bullies who think that by bullying us into terms that are very bad for us, very good for them we will meekly say "perhaps we shouldn't leave then" (and then they will turn up the screw even higher and strip us of our opt outs) You really need to think this through. We joined the EU of our own free will. No we joined the EEC have you forgotten already, short term memeory loss ? Agreed to all the rules and regulations, or negotiated an opt out if not to our taste. I don't remmerb being asked if I wanted to opt out of anything. I don't rememebr our MPs asking us either. Due to self serving ******s like Farage and his other bully boys stirring up those who knew no better, 'we' voted to leave. because that was the first time we'd been asked our opinion on anything for 40+ years. Not been thrown out of the club - but said it wasn't for us anymore. But now seem to have discovered lots of it was in the interests of the country as a whole. And like a selfish toddler want to hang on to what suits us regardless of the rules of that club. Why should that be a suprise the EU is doing exactly the same. If the positions were reversed, The Mail, etc, would be frothing at the mouth. While newspapers have a voice it's usually the owner of the paper whose voice you hear loundest. |
#295
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 12:08, pamela wrote:
On 01:52 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 01/10/17 23:06, pamela wrote: For the most part, the EU was mutually beneficial for those who were in it. Only the politicians, Frech Farmers and German car makers Everyne else got a **** deal In that case we shouldn't worry if we get no concessions in these negotiations because, according to what you wrote, we will still be better off. Yes, we would be by and large. The EU is a con. Like all socialist government. Give us your money, we will give a little of it back and spend the rest on ourselves, jobs for our cronies and propaganda to make you feel we are ****ing wonderful Generations fall for it every time. Great. -- All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is fully understood. |
#296
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote:
The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money So we have learnt that the EU is run by amateurs. Quelle surprise! -- Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns. |
#297
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/2017 12:01, pamela wrote:
snip Brexiteers thought we held all the cards and that the negotiations would quickly come out in our favour. That's naieve. The EU is not attempting to give the UK a good deal. That is what Remoaners believe how Brexiters think. Brexiters think WTO rules are fine. Brits are famously hopeless at bartering for goods when they're abroad and now they are proving equally hopeless. So why bother? Let March 2019 pass. We ought to be talking more to other countries in the world. |
#298
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 11:49, pamela wrote:
On 23:55 1 Oct 2017, Cursitor Doom wrote: On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 23:01:13 +0100, pamela wrote: You couldn't predict it? So you wanted to Remoan so as not to upset the Germans?? That's a very un- British attitude you have there. I'd like Brexiteers to stop moaning about how badly the EU is behaving in negotiations. It was completely predictable. Yes, I totally agree. We always knew they were a bunch of greedy, incompetent, arrogant, bullying ****s, and thats why we voted to leave in the first place. The Brexiteers need to get on with it. We are trying. -- Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not. Ayn Rand. |
#299
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 12:06, Mark wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 21:10:57 +0100, Tim Streater wrote: In article , Mark wrote: On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 04:42:08 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote: "pamela" wrote in message ... On 11:26 30 Sep 2017, tim... wrote: --snip-- and our goods are to their specs. They already are, so thats a complete yawn. Until they change the specs and we will have no say in these when outside the EU. Then we change the product. Just as we would for product sent to any other non-EU country. This is trivially unimportant; stop trying to pretend it's a major issue. Neither you nor I know whether this will be a major issue. Many Brexiters are claiming that the EU is making things as difficult as possible for the UK - why should this be any different? Becasue trade cuts both ways. We could for example, insisr that all imported cars come with a diamond encrusted vanity mirror, but not locally made ones. -- Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill |
#300
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 12:14, pamela wrote:
Not only is the UK in a weak position in the EU negotiations but Theresa May's weak government makes it harder still to get a good deal. Her weak leadership doesn't help. She is doing what she is told. She had a massive majority and deliberately threw it all away in a silly election. This was deliberate. She was selceted because she is incompetent and her backers want Brexit to fail. Only the likes of Ress Mogg and Bioris and Fragae are keeping the process on the rails. -- Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age. Richard Lindzen |
#301
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/17 12:17, pamela wrote:
On 21:13 1 Oct 2017, Tim Streater wrote: In article , pamela wrote: On 11:28 1 Oct 2017, Huge wrote: On 2017-10-01, pamela wrote: [71 lines snipped] The US, whom we are regularly told is our great ally, didn't hold back from imposing 220 percent retaliatory tariffs over Bombardier. The US used WW2 to destroy Britain as a world power. I guess you mean the War Debt. Not only. We used to have significant foreign investments in South America. Sold to the Yanks for a song for agreement for the Yanks selling us arms during WW2. Which goes to show that we had better not place too much hope on favourable trade deals with the US. God you are naive. The Yanks play hard ball. WE know that. It was a masterstroke by Churchill that got them to finally stand up to the Russians and pour trillions into Europe. Or lose it as a market. -- "What do you think about Gay Marriage?" "I don't." "Don't what?" "Think about Gay Marriage." |
#302
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote:
On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. -- James Harris |
#303
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris
wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. |
#304
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 12:14:01 +0100, pamela wrote:
On 10:55 2 Oct 2017, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Steve Walker wrote: Britain has the right to leave the EU and Britain has the right to bear the consequences of leaving. Meanwhile the EU has the right not to provide any assistance. It's all part of realpolitik. And the fact that the EU would make it as didicult as possible, so as to discourage others leaving, shows exactly why we need to leave. What very odd logic. No special deals, no benefits without costs is fair enough, but deliberately preventing debate of things that need to be sorted out is not. It's is absolutely no problem if we just wish to negotiate the separation deal from the EU. That could be done well within the timescale. But May wants a new deal involving trade and services. Not only is the UK in a weak position in the EU negotiations but Theresa May's weak government makes it harder still to get a good deal. Her weak leadership doesn't help. Quite. Normally the PM would sack ministers openly criticising the government, so why is Boris still there? We used to think all those Italian coalition governments in past decades were hopeless and unstable but now we have a similar situation. You are right. All this at a time when we need to move faster. Maybe not faster but it would be better if the UK representatives had some clue what they were doing. |
#305
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. -- James Harris |
#306
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.legal
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P**s up and brewery.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris
wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If you think that the EU is "bullying" us then you must think they are in a stronger position. |
#307
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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P**s up and brewery.
On Monday, 2 October 2017 15:31:45 UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If you think that the EU is "bullying" us then you must think they are in a stronger position. But that wouldnlt make bullying right would it, just because they are in a stronger position that's what most bullies believe. |
#308
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P**s up and brewery.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote: On Monday, 2 October 2017 15:31:45 UTC+1, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If you think that the EU is "bullying" us then you must think they are in a stronger position. But that wouldnlt make bullying right would it, just because they are in a stronger position that's what most bullies believe. No. And I don't accept that the EU is bullying us. They are just trying to get the best deal for themselves. It doesn't help that the UK doesn't have a clue ATM. |
#309
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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In article ,
tim... wrote: Really? How come? May etc doesn't want to simply leave the EU. She wants to set up a new trade etc deal at the same time. she wants to agree trading details I agree but that is to be expected and is not the same thing as a trade deal Isn't that splitting hairs? May wants to continue trading with the EU on better than WTO terms. And seems to think it is the UK's right to do this. Despite being told from the off that cherry picking wasn't on the agenda. If she'd said she'd accept the same deal as others - like say Norway - perhaps a different matter. And now of course the two years since signing article 50 isn't enough. She wants a further two years. Which will just about take her to the end of this parliament - if she lasts that long. -- *You're never too old to learn something stupid. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#310
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P**s up and brewery.
On Monday, 2 October 2017 15:49:46 UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave wrote: On Monday, 2 October 2017 15:31:45 UTC+1, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If you think that the EU is "bullying" us then you must think they are in a stronger position. But that wouldnlt make bullying right would it, just because they are in a stronger position that's what most bullies believe. No. And I don't accept that the EU is bullying us. yuo'd have to define what exactly is bullying. Most only see bullying as a physical threat. They are just trying to get the best deal for themselves. It doesn't help that the UK doesn't have a clue ATM. Isn't that what both sides are doing. |
#311
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote: We joined the EU of our own free will. No we joined the EEC have you forgotten already, short term memeory loss ? Ah - so we weren't in the EU. I've been misled all along, then. -- *INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#312
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money Absolutely. Straight dealing in business is what got your idol Trump elected. -- *Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#313
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote: That is what Remoaners believe how Brexiters think. Brexiters think WTO rules are fine. Do they? All of them? Or are you just attempting to speak for others? -- *WHOSE CRUEL IDEA WAS IT FOR THE WORD 'LISP' TO HAVE 'S' IN IT? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#314
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Only the likes of Ress Mogg and Bioris and Fragae are keeping the process on the rails. Ah - the honest business man you revere. Rees-Mogg votes against abortion but has investments in a company which sells abortion pills. Anything is OK to him when it involves making money. -- *Why 'that tie suits you' but 'those shoes suit you'?* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#315
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P**s up and brewery.
On Monday, 2 October 2017 16:43:20 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: We joined the EU of our own free will. No we joined the EEC have you forgotten already, short term memeory loss ? Ah - so we weren't in the EU. I've been misled all along, then. Nom we joined the EEC, see above the claim is that we joined the EU. if you can't tell the differnce then that says it all really. |
#316
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P**s up and brewery.
In article ,
James Harris wrote: A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. The UK while a member of the EU demanded change for their benefit. The EU mostly said no. The UK said they would hold a referendum on leaving if they didn't get what they wanted. The EU shrugged its shoulders. The UK has that referendum and is leaving the EU. Sorry to see you go, says the EU. The UK want to keep many of the benefits of being an EU member (after leaving) with none of the 'costs' The EU thinks this not on. And you call the EU a bully? -- *Work is for people who don't know how to fish. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#317
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On 02/10/2017 15:31, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If we had chosen to stay then I would agree with you. But when the sequence is: 1. We are going to leave 2. Then we'll make choices to ensure you are worse off 3. OK, we'll stay. Then that's being bullied. If you think that the EU is "bullying" us then you must think they are in a stronger position. I think they /are/ in a stronger position, albeit not an overwhelming one. But that's somewhat missing the point. Bullying is not about size or might. It is about an attitude of mind. Consider that when the Scottish parliament was set up and went off on its own Westminster was generous to it (probably too generous), helped it get on its feet, and wanted it to be a success. Of course, Westminster was, to quote your words, "in a stronger position". But Westminster's /attitude/ was not bullying. It was a positive, helpful one. Now contrast that with the EU. Look at the negativity we get from it. Look at what it wants to happen. And think about what kind of organisation it is. -- James Harris |
#318
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On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 16:59:35 +0100, James Harris
wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:31, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If we had chosen to stay then I would agree with you. But when the sequence is: FSVO "we" 1. We are going to leave 2. Then we'll make choices to ensure you are worse off 3. OK, we'll stay. Then that's being bullied. The referendum was very close and recent polls show that the tide has turned. --snip-- Consider that when the Scottish parliament was set up and went off on its own Westminster was generous to it (probably too generous), helped it get on its feet, and wanted it to be a success. Of course, Westminster was, to quote your words, "in a stronger position". But Westminster's /attitude/ was not bullying. It was a positive, helpful one. I think they are too generous in this. Scotland can afford to do things in Scotland that we don't get in England. Now contrast that with the EU. Look at the negativity we get from it. Look at what it wants to happen. And think about what kind of organisation it is. Much of the negativity comes from the Xenaphobic UK press and certain UK politicians. |
#319
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In article , Mark
wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 16:59:35 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:31, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris wrote: On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote: On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote: The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship, partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on. Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly straight. It saves time and money The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win by only fair means. Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the clearest. Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny Foreigner played and won the game? A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I believe them. Another good reason not to leave the EU. Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it. No, staying in the EU is not giving in. If we had chosen to stay then I would agree with you. But when the sequence is: FSVO "we" 1. We are going to leave 2. Then we'll make choices to ensure you are worse off 3. OK, we'll stay. Then that's being bullied. The referendum was very close and recent polls show that the tide has turned. --snip-- Consider that when the Scottish parliament was set up and went off on its own Westminster was generous to it (probably too generous), helped it get on its feet, and wanted it to be a success. Of course, Westminster was, to quote your words, "in a stronger position". But Westminster's /attitude/ was not bullying. It was a positive, helpful one. I think they are too generous in this. Scotland can afford to do things in Scotland that we don't get in England. But, it seems as though their NHS is suffering as a result. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England |
#320
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message news On 01/10/17 23:06, pamela wrote: For the most part, the EU was mutually beneficial for those who were in it. Only the politiciƄns, Frech Farmers and German car makers Everyne else got a **** deal Thats bull**** for those who want to move around the EU to anywhere they like with no restrictions at all on their movements. And for those who want to be able to flog stuff anywhere in the EU with minimal paperwork involved. With a few exceptions like with those that need to charge the local VAT on digital media etc. |
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