On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 16:59:35 +0100, James Harris
wrote:

On 02/10/2017 15:31, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:24:17 +0100, James Harris
wrote:

On 02/10/2017 15:14, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:43:57 +0100, James Harris
wrote:

On 02/10/2017 14:12, pamela wrote:
On 13:04 2 Oct 2017, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 02/10/17 12:01, pamela wrote:


The negotiation is not just the part where we sit around a
table and banter with one another over tea & biscuits then
leave with handshakes and smiles. Everything is part of the
negotiation and that includes walkouts, threats, brinkmanship,
partisan voting, off the record briefings and so on.

Yes, thats how amateurs negotiate, Business men establish first
that they are not dealing with idiots, and play the game mostly
straight. It saves time and money

The EU aims to win by fair means or foul. The British aim to win
by only fair means.

Who is most likely to win? I'm not asking whose conscience is the
clearest.

Do we want a good deal or not? Are we going to wise up to the
EU's tactics or are we going to moan about the unfair way Johnny
Foreigner played and won the game?

A fair assessment. I would add that the goals are different. The EU has
stated that from their point of view Brexit has to cause diminishment. I
believe them.

Another good reason not to leave the EU.

Sure. Anyone that bullies us should be given in to. No doubt about it.

No, staying in the EU is not giving in.

If we had chosen to stay then I would agree with you. But when the
sequence is:

FSVO "we"

1. We are going to leave
2. Then we'll make choices to ensure you are worse off
3. OK, we'll stay.

Then that's being bullied.

The referendum was very close and recent polls show that the tide has
turned.

--snip--

Consider that when the Scottish parliament was set up and went off on
its own Westminster was generous to it (probably too generous), helped
it get on its feet, and wanted it to be a success. Of course,
Westminster was, to quote your words, "in a stronger position". But
Westminster's /attitude/ was not bullying. It was a positive, helpful one.

I think they are too generous in this. Scotland can afford to do
things in Scotland that we don't get in England.

Now contrast that with the EU. Look at the negativity we get from it.
Look at what it wants to happen. And think about what kind of
organisation it is.

Much of the negativity comes from the Xenaphobic UK press and certain
UK politicians.