Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest when
negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

Is this another example of 'strong and stable' government?

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

we need to keep our cards close to our chest when negotiating.

Before we *started* negotiating ...

On 21/09/2017 13:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:46:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest
when negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

This is after the EU has said - many times - that it doesn't negotiate by
speeches.

It's all moot anyway. Looking at my news feeds, absolutely no one is
talking about it outside the UK.


Its only a Westminster village thing. The rest of the country couldn't
care a toss what is said in a speech as it means absolutely nothing.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 12:56:55 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

snip

It's all moot anyway. Looking at my news feeds, absolutely no one is
talking about it outside the UK.

Funnily enough, I asked my mate in Denmark a couple of days ago if
'Brexit' ever came up in any conversations at work or home and he said
'no'.

His only comment on it was the company he works for buys some parts
for equipment they make from the UK and if we end up with a customs
border back then it will be a big PITA (delays not money etc) for them
and they may well look elsewhere (within the EU) for supply.

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:46:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

I thought they were proposing to bypass parliament and let ministers
make all the decisions.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest when
negotiating.

That's because they haven't a clue what they are doing.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

Is this another example of 'strong and stable' government?

No.

*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

I tried growing up but didn't like it.

No its called playing the same game as the Eu I think. Rather clever I
thought.

I wonder if we get a final say when the negotiations are considered complete
and what happens if we then decide the package is unacceptable will they let
us back in again?
I maintain that the EU should have been in before the referendum to tell
the truth rather than the over the top panic merchants running the in and
out campaigns at the time. How can a country decide when nobody believes
anyone?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest when
negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

Is this another example of 'strong and stable' government?

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/09/2017 17:20, Brian Gaff wrote:



I maintain that the EU should have been in before the referendum to tell
the truth

Do you mean that you couldn't be bothered to read the documentation on
the future of the EU that the commission produced?

I think that Cameron told the Commissioners to keep very quiet during
the run up to the referendum in case their comments prejudiced the UK
population against the EU.

I find it strange that some people are willing to believe that EU
representatives will always tell the truth whereas our own politicians
are completely untrustworthy.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:46:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest
when negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

This is after the EU has said - many times - that it doesn't negotiate by
speeches.

But they do - all the time.
It's all moot anyway. Looking at my news feeds, absolutely no one is
talking about it outside the UK.

--
bert

Brian Gaff wrote

No its called playing the same game as the Eu I think. Rather clever I
thought.

We'll see if anyone takes any noticed. Unlikely IMO.

I wonder if we get a final say when the negotiations are considered
complete

Bet you don’t given the massive surprise she got when
she called a general election. Bet she has decided you lot
are far to unpredictable to ask again. Corse that assumes
that she is still driving the Tory bus by then. If its Boris,
anything is possible, including tossing a coin quite literally.

and what happens if we then decide the package is unacceptable will they
let us back in again?

Yep, but they would, but maybe after punishing Britain for
****ing them around by removing some of the concessions
etc and if they are particularly bloody minded making
Britain join the eurozone and schengen etc. They'd love
to have all that money keeping on pouring in.

I maintain that the EU should have been in before the referendum to tell
the truth

There is no 'truth' to tell on stuff like whether the
eurozone will implode etc. Its always going to be
an opinion which may or may not be accurate.

rather than the over the top panic merchants running the in and out
campaigns at the time. How can a country decide when nobody believes
anyone?

That’s always true of any major political choice.

The plow**** and his ilk will always believe that
anything the torys say is lies and that they will ****
over everyone but the toffs every chance they get.

That’s the way politics is.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest
when
negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

Is this another example of 'strong and stable' government?

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/09/17 13:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:46:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Seems only a few months ago the UK law was invoked to give parliament a
say in the Brexit negotiations.

Dreadful, says May etc - we need to keep our cards close to our chest
when negotiating.

Now it seems she wishes to do this via a public speech at Florence.

This is after the EU has said - many times - that it doesn't negotiate by
speeches.


Usually in a speech they are making about Brexit negotiations.

It's all moot anyway. Looking at my news feeds, absolutely no one is
talking about it outside the UK.



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

a public speech at Florence

Anyone know /why/ this is in Florence, if as mentioned, nobody in
particular from .eu is going to be there?

On 22/09/17 14:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

a public speech at Florence

Anyone know /why/ this is in Florence, if as mentioned, nobody in
particular from .eu is going to be there?


It's got particularly good shoe shops, and is rather nice at this time
of year.


--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept this loss
of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now and in the
future, will incur a financial cost based on principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on BBCR4Today the
other morning. He understands the ****ish behaviour of the EU even if
Remoaners here don't.

Only one comment needed about Varoufakis. Physician heal thyself.

--
*Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:46:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is this another example of 'strong and stable' government?

More like weak & feeble, Dave.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

On 16:22 22 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept
this loss of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now
and in the future, will incur a financial cost based on
principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on
BBCR4Today the other morning. He understands the ****ish
behaviour of the EU even if Remoaners here don't.

I didn't hear Varoufakisc on the radio but I do recall how
Varoufakis felt Greece was too big to fail and that Germany was
owed too much money to allow Greece to go bankrupt.

He said that their intransigent behaviour of the EU was because they
are scared of making leaving appear too easy and is "intended as a
warning to the riff-raff of the EU, such as Greece, Portugal, Spain,
...".

His words.

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece? Why not
Eire too?

But I take it buy your support for Varoufakis you approve of the way the
Greek economy is run?

--
*42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 22/09/2017 16:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around.Â* However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept this loss
of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now and in the
future, will incur a financial cost based on principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on BBCR4Today the
other morning. He understands the ****ish behaviour of the EU even if
Remoaners here don't.

I think some Remoaners revel in such EU behaviour. MM comes to mind with
his German license. He'd love to sell out the UK to the EU.

RMC isn't far behind, saying that continued payments to the EU is a
'bung' yet historically supported such payments when convenient to do so.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 22/09/2017 16:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept this loss
of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now and in the
future, will incur a financial cost based on principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on BBCR4Today the
other morning. He understands the ****ish behaviour of the EU even if
Remoaners here don't.

I think some Remoaners revel in such EU behaviour.

Unlike you optimists, the EU are behaving pretty well as they said they
would - and remainers predicted - before the referendum. So basically
you've been proved to be wrong saying they's simply roll over and give in
to the UK, as 'they need us more than we need them' and other such vain
predictions.

MM comes to mind with
his German license. He'd love to sell out the UK to the EU.

RMC isn't far behind, saying that continued payments to the EU is a
'bung' yet historically supported such payments when convenient to do so.

Just for once take your blinkers off and look at things from the other
side's point of view. This isn't a fooking football match.

--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

On 16:22 22 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept
this loss of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now
and in the future, will incur a financial cost based on
principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on
BBCR4Today the other morning. He understands the ****ish
behaviour of the EU even if Remoaners here don't.

I didn't hear Varoufakisc on the radio but I do recall how
Varoufakis felt Greece was too big to fail and that Germany was
owed too much money to allow Greece to go bankrupt.

He said that their intransigent behaviour of the EU was because they
are scared of making leaving appear too easy and is "intended as a
warning to the riff-raff of the EU, such as Greece, Portugal, Spain,
...".

His words.

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece? Why not
Eire too?

But I take it buy your support for Varoufakis you approve of the way the
Greek economy is run?

Varoufakis was not in charge of the Greek economy when the problem was
allowed to happen

he was just in charge when a solution was being sought

and he is right

Leaving the Greek people in penury for 20 years, as an alternative to simply
forgoing the debt, is not going to get the rEU its money back

Sooner or later they will realise that it has to be written off.

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:28 23 Sep 2017, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 22/09/2017 16:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept
this loss of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers,
now and in the future, will incur a financial cost based on
principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on
BBCR4Today the other morning. He understands the ****ish
behaviour of the EU even if Remoaners here don't.

I think some Remoaners revel in such EU behaviour.

Unlike you optimists, the EU are behaving pretty well as they
said they would - and remainers predicted - before the
referendum. So basically you've been proved to be wrong saying
they's simply roll over and give in to the UK, as 'they need us
more than we need them' and other such vain predictions.

That's exactly so.

The EU is puting forward an experienced team of smooth and
slippery negotiators who are starting from a position of strength
whereas our negotiators, such as Boris Johnson, seem to trumpet
their shambolic amateurism.

The EU does not need an easy British exit more than it needs
future cohesion which it will ensure by creating a difficult exit
for Britain. To this end the EU is prepared to fund any financial
losses to itself.

Theresa May is now stalling for time because the outcome is going
to be messy and unpopular, just a the Remainers always expected.

all the more reason to get the messy part over ASAP and move on to the
taking advantage of the "wins"

tim

Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece?
Why not Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and
variations thereof) was a moniker for countries most under pressure in
the financial crisis and possible candidates to exit the Eurozone?

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 10:28 23 Sep 2017, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 22/09/2017 16:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept
this loss of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers,
now and in the future, will incur a financial cost based on
principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on
BBCR4Today the other morning. He understands the ****ish
behaviour of the EU even if Remoaners here don't.

I think some Remoaners revel in such EU behaviour.

Unlike you optimists, the EU are behaving pretty well as they
said they would - and remainers predicted - before the
referendum. So basically you've been proved to be wrong saying
they's simply roll over and give in to the UK, as 'they need us
more than we need them' and other such vain predictions.

That's exactly so.

The EU is puting forward an experienced team of smooth and
slippery negotiators who are starting from a position of strength
whereas our negotiators, such as Boris Johnson, seem to trumpet
their shambolic amateurism.

The EU does not need an easy British exit more than it needs
future cohesion which it will ensure by creating a difficult exit
for Britain. To this end the EU is prepared to fund any financial
losses to itself.

Which is essentially what Varoufakis was saying.

Theresa May is now stalling for time because the outcome is going
to be messy and unpopular, just a the Remainers always expected.

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even less
now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change the
eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is dropping all
the time and several agencies have downgraded the UK's credit rating
as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are trying to
leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the moment. The
little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

On 23/09/17 11:36, pamela wrote:
The EU is puting forward an experienced team of smooth and
slippery negotiators who are starting from a position of strength
whereas our negotiators, such as Boris Johnson, seem to trumpet
their shambolic amateurism.
LOL!

I'd hate to see what shambolic EU negotiators really look like.


even more than Id love to see your face if you ever stumbled on what is
really going on.

You wouldn't believe it of course.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:15:19 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even less
now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change the
eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is dropping all
the time and several agencies have downgraded the UK's credit rating
as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are trying to
leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the moment. The
little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats and
bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new arrangements
made.

Oh dear. You seem to be among those who think the EU should do
exactly what the UK tells it to. The EU has never been a club for the
UK to control. It's about cooperation - which it is not getting much
from the UK now.

What we're about to get now is the worst of both "worlds": We'll
still be paying large sums of money to the EU but getting nothing back
and having no say over EU rules.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's *this* EU, this *corrupt*
and *undemocratic* EU.

It's no less democratic and corrupt than the UK political system,
better in fact.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and they haven't sold me
anything; I've known about how unfit for purpose the EU is for many
years.

From your posts you seem to be a "little englander" based on your
prejudices.

pamela wrote in news:XnsA7F98EF92106CD4AM2@
81.171.92.183:

On 13:15 23 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even
less now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change
the eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is
dropping all the time and several agencies have downgraded the
UK's credit rating as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are
trying to leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the
moment. The little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats
and bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new
arrangements made.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's *this* EU, this
*corrupt* and *undemocratic* EU.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and they haven't
sold me anything; I've known about how unfit for purpose the EU
is for many years.

Little Englanders are very much alive and kicking. They are
Farage and Johnson's supporters.

These Litle Englanders seem to forget how, for decades after the
war Britain slipped behind it's European neighbours economically
and was known as the sick man of Europe. The Little Englanders
opposed change and in particular change the way the Europeans were
doing. In the end, the loss was ours and we had to spend decades
catching up as best as we could.

Anyone who hasn't got **** for brains knows that Britain should stay in
the EU.

I don't even argue the point because it's so obvious.

Harry

In article ,
pamela wrote:
Theresa May is now stalling for time because the outcome is going
to be messy and unpopular, just a the Remainers always expected.


Very true. And is protecting her arse by the extra two years taking us
just about to the end of this parliament. Leaving sorting out the mess to
someone else.

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
He said that their intransigent behaviour of the EU was because they
are scared of making leaving appear too easy and is "intended as a
warning to the riff-raff of the EU, such as Greece, Portugal, Spain,
...".

His words.

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece? Why
not Eire too?

Can't you read, Our Dave? I wasn't putting Spain and Portugal anywhere.
I was just quoting what Varoufakis said. I even said "his words" just to
make it more obvious for the mentally challenged.

Only the mentally challenged quote someone with no comment unless they
agree with them.

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece?
Why not Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and
variations thereof) was a moniker for countries most under pressure in
the financial crisis and possible candidates to exit the Eurozone?

And Ireland has seen the light and has no wish to leave the EU. Pity we've
been so stupid.

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece? Why not
Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and

you missed an "I" out

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece?
Why not Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and
variations thereof) was a moniker for countries most under pressure in
the financial crisis and possible candidates to exit the Eurozone?

And Ireland has seen the light and has no wish to leave the EU

because unlike us it hasn't been give a big bill to pay for the past 30
years, but has instead been given handouts

Can't you see the difference here?

tim

"Harold Davis" wrote in message
...
pamela wrote in news:XnsA7F98EF92106CD4AM2@
81.171.92.183:

On 13:15 23 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even
less now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change
the eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is
dropping all the time and several agencies have downgraded the
UK's credit rating as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are
trying to leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the
moment. The little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats
and bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new
arrangements made.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's *this* EU, this
*corrupt* and *undemocratic* EU.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and they haven't
sold me anything; I've known about how unfit for purpose the EU
is for many years.

Little Englanders are very much alive and kicking. They are
Farage and Johnson's supporters.

These Litle Englanders seem to forget how, for decades after the
war Britain slipped behind it's European neighbours economically
and was known as the sick man of Europe. The Little Englanders
opposed change and in particular change the way the Europeans were
doing. In the end, the loss was ours and we had to spend decades
catching up as best as we could.

Anyone who hasn't got **** for brains knows that Britain should stay in
the EU.

I don't even argue the point because it's so obvious.

but it ****ing well isn't and insulating the opposition doesn't win you the
argument

You actually have to make cogent points

tim

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , pamela
wrote:

On 16:22 22 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

Of course the UK imports more EU goods than the other way
around. However, the pro-EU states seem prepared to accept
this loss of income if it teaches the lesson that leavers, now
and in the future, will incur a financial cost based on
principle not logic.

Exactly as I quoted Yanis Varoufakis as having said on
BBCR4Today the other morning. He understands the ****ish
behaviour of the EU even if Remoaners here don't.

I didn't hear Varoufakisc on the radio but I do recall how
Varoufakis felt Greece was too big to fail and that Germany was
owed too much money to allow Greece to go bankrupt.

He said that their intransigent behaviour of the EU was because they
are scared of making leaving appear too easy and is "intended as a
warning to the riff-raff of the EU, such as Greece, Portugal, Spain,
...".

His words.

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece? Why not
Eire too?

But I take it buy your support for Varoufakis you approve of the way the
Greek economy is run?

Varoufakis was not in charge of the Greek economy when the problem was
allowed to happen

he was just in charge when a solution was being sought

and he is right

Leaving the Greek people in penury for 20 years, as an alternative to
simply forgoing the debt, is not going to get the rEU its money back

But it already has forced them to stop being as profligate
with borrowed money as they had been in the past.

Sooner or later they will realise that it has to be written off.

Yes, but they have already made a hell of a
difference to running up more and more debt.

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:15:19 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even less
now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change the
eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is dropping all
the time and several agencies have downgraded the UK's credit rating
as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are trying to
leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the moment. The
little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats and
bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new arrangements
made.

Oh dear. You seem to be among those who think
the EU should do exactly what the UK tells it to.

Nope, just allow it to have what all but 3 of these have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

The EU has never been a club for the UK to control.

No one wants to control the EU.

It's about cooperation

The EU isnt. Its actually about their way or the
highway with stuff like the eurozone, schengen,
unelected bureaucrats deciding policy etc etc etc.

- which it is not getting much from the UK now.

Because the majority who bothered to vote voted to leave.

You get to like that or lump it.

What we're about to get now is the worst of both "worlds":

Bull**** on deciding who can come to the country alone.

We'll still be paying large sums of money to the EU

Bull****.

but getting nothing back

More bull**** on deciding who gets to move to Britain alone.

and having no say over EU rules.

Britain gets no say on EU rules now. It got no say
on new joiners being forced to join the eurozone,
on the free movement of EU citizens within the EU,
or even on whether accept its quota of illegals.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's
*this* EU, this *corrupt* and *undemocratic* EU.

It's no less democratic and corrupt than the UK political system,

Corse its much less democratic when the EP cant even write its
own legislation and can only vote on whether to accept or reject
what unelected bureaucrats have presented and can't even sack
one of them, it has to sack the whole lot if its ****ed off enough.

better in fact.

Even sillier than you usually manage, and that's saying something.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and
they haven't sold me anything; I've known about
how unfit for purpose the EU is for many years.

From your posts you seem to be a "little englander" based on your
prejudices.

He can't when he has always said that the EEC was a
great idea but that the EU isnt on quite a bit of the detail
they force on countrys that are considering joining.

On 23/09/17 18:19, pamela wrote:
On 14:05 23 Sep 2017, Harold Davis wrote:

pamela wrote in news:XnsA7F98EF92106CD4AM2@
81.171.92.183:

On 13:15 23 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even
less now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to
change the eventual outcome. International confidence in the
UK is dropping all the time and several agencies have
downgraded the UK's credit rating as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are
trying to leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the
moment. The little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats
and bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new
arrangements made.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's *this* EU, this
*corrupt* and *undemocratic* EU.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and they
haven't sold me anything; I've known about how unfit for
purpose the EU is for many years.

Little Englanders are very much alive and kicking. They are
Farage and Johnson's supporters.

These Litle Englanders seem to forget how, for decades after
the war Britain slipped behind it's European neighbours
economically and was known as the sick man of Europe. The
Little Englanders opposed change and in particular change the
way the Europeans were doing. In the end, the loss was ours
and we had to spend decades catching up as best as we could.

Anyone who hasn't got **** for brains knows that Britain should
stay in the EU.

I don't even argue the point because it's so obvious.

Harry

The Leavers now need to prove their original claims that it will
be like a picnic with sweets for everybody.

That was never the claim. Teh claim was that it would liberate
hardworking people to make things better, not that lazy lefty****s would
get a free ride.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 13:15 23 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:34:59 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

Not that this alters the case for leaving one iota.

True. There was never a good case for leaving the EU and even
less now. Delaying jumping off the cliff isn't going to change
the eventual outcome. International confidence in the UK is
dropping all the time and several agencies have downgraded the
UK's credit rating as a result.

The fact that the
EU would do this merely confirms why we should be leaving.

No. EU cohesion is more important than one country who are
trying to leave. The EU recognise how stupid the UK is at the
moment. The little englanders have sold you a dud.

And the UK negociators haven't a clue what they are doing.

Don't be silly. If the EU can only be held together by threats
and bullying then it should be dissolved altogether and new
arrangements made.

The problem is not so much having an EU, it's *this* EU, this
*corrupt* and *undemocratic* EU.

And FYI, there aren't any "little englanders", and they haven't
sold me anything; I've known about how unfit for purpose the EU
is for many years.

Little Englanders are very much alive and kicking. They are
Farage and Johnson's supporters.

These Litle Englanders seem to forget how, for decades
after the war Britain slipped behind it's European neighbours
economically and was known as the sick man of Europe.

Because the war had been so expensive.

The Little Englanders opposed change

Like hell they did with the slum clearances and council housing.

and in particular change the way the Europeans were doing.

In fact de Gaulle refused to allow Britain to
join and Britain did join after he had died.

In the end, the loss was ours

Yes, but not due to little englanders.

and we had to spend decades
catching up as best as we could.

Yes, but not due to little englanders.

"Rod Speed" wrote in news:f2o5f8Flgs7U1
@mid.individual.net:

"pamela" wrote in message
...

In fact de Gaulle refused to allow Britain to
join and Britain did join after he had died.

Because the Etonian elite (who had a majority in Eden's cabinet) decided
not to unite with France (had that great opportunity been taken up, there
probably would have been no EEC the following year) and threw their lot in
with the US instead.

De Gaulle's position is far more often quoted than the reason for it - the
****ing idiotic policy of the British Tory government towards France and
its compradore Atlanticist policy which was backed by Labour but which
still hasn't been put to a vote.

In today's changed circumstances, a Britain outside of the EU would have no
friends, would be even weaker relative to the foreign power that keeps
military bases here, and would be totally up **** creek without a paddle,
however much Theresa May - the rival of Eden and Macmillan for sheer
incompetence - goes to India and the UAE with a begging bowl. Funny money
from such places may keep the Tory party afloat but it won't keep Britain
afloat. There's a difference.

For God's sake, stay in the EU already.

Harry

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece?
Why not Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and
variations thereof) was a moniker for countries most under pressure in
the financial crisis and possible candidates to exit the Eurozone?

And Ireland has seen the light and has no wish to leave the EU

because unlike us it hasn't been give a big bill to pay for the past 30
years, but has instead been given handouts

And hasn't seen hordes of EUians pouring into their country and
in fact ****ed up their economy so very comprehensively that
hordes of them had to leave because their economy was so ****ed.

Can't you see the difference here?

Harold Davis wrote in
:

"Rod Speed" wrote in news:f2o5f8Flgs7U1
@mid.individual.net:

"pamela" wrote in message
...

For God's sake, stay in the EU already.

EU membership has never been a problem in Britain.

If people are against unnecessary regulation, they'd be better off
picketing their local town hall, but the tabloids have never pointed them
in that direction.

EU membership was voted against mainly by rednecks who probably couldn't
even name the EU's principal executive body but who wanted to air their
(often justified) grievances about real problems that have been
associated with immigration for about 40 years and which continue to
build. The elite in this country has for more than a century treated the
population as if they were barbarians and therefore can't quite get how
they think or why their grievances should be paid attention to.

Even now the far-right foreign-owned tabloid press keeps geeing its
readership up, portraying almost every item to do with the Brexit
negotiations in terms of "Europeans" demanding stuff from Brits and not
allowing Brits to do what they want, etc.

Harry

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

You put Spain and Portugal in the same economic state as Greece?
Why not Eire too?

I seem to remember PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain and
variations thereof) was a moniker for countries most under pressure in
the financial crisis and possible candidates to exit the Eurozone?

And Ireland has seen the light and has no wish to leave the EU

because unlike us it hasn't been give a big bill to pay for the past 30
years, but has instead been given handouts

Ah - right. You dislike the idea of one country helping another. And the
principle that as that country become richer, it contributes to others.

At least you're being honest.





--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The Leavers now need to prove their original claims that it will
be like a picnic with sweets for everybody.

That was never the claim. Teh claim was that it would liberate
hardworking people to make things better,

Really? Can you find a quote for that?

not that lazy lefty****s would get a free ride.

You are amazing. Without the vast number of badly mislead Labour voters,
Brexit would just be a wanking fantasy for Farage.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Rod Speed" wrote in news:f2o6smFlq6mU1
@mid.individual.net:

hordes of EUians pouring into their country

Many British expats don't distinguish much between their revulsion towards
black, brown and non-English speaking immigrants to Britain and the
revulsion they also feel towards the "native" proletarians who are white
and English-speaking.

To think many of these types had a vote in the referendum...

Harry