On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 14:26:20 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:09:31 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for which you don't.

What?

What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw


What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But it would appear to the meter that it was on and off use like domestic appliances.

so, what will a car be called a non dometisc applience whicvh gets free electricity paid for by the govenrment ?


can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK cars.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 14:57:03 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 12/04/16 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:07:48 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 12/04/16 12:18, whisky-dave wrote:

Two seperate problems working out how much current a battery takes to charge is **** easy.

And the rest of it? Communicating that back to the house's smart meter
for example.

we have a system where computers can talk to each other from all over the world.
We have transformers and adpaters that means you can take almost any product to anywhere in teh world. e have cars and bikes with all sorts of fittings and sizes, but whatever car you by you can be pretty sure someone will make a type for it.

Yes yes...




My point was: they cannot even make a standard smart meter for flexible
tarrifs that is universal (can be used by any supplier).

thats what they say.
if ot was in their interest they'd do it just like everything else.

Exactly - and taxing electricity at different rates by load type is not
really something they're going to be interested in.

I agree so the problem won't exist. all you need to know is how much current goes into your car over what period of time. I DO NOT see a need for govenrment adding a tax to electricity. Well no more so than they add tax to water gas and anything else.




My point is not that it is technically infeasible (it could be done).

It is that it is commercially infeasible as there are way too many
stakeholders.

What do you mean by too many stakeholders.

Stakeholders = interested parties. There are too many. You'll get a
design-by-committee approach and we know how well that works.

We have the same with electric, water, council tax, even pertol.

No we don't - it's not at all related.

Some pay for their water by usage most of us pay our electricity and gas by the amount we use, why should it be any differnt just because it's going into the car rather than the TV or fridge freezer ?


It will go the way of the NHS central records system - a lot of money,
won;t work right and will go on forever.

that's' why you don;t let the goverment in control it.


Which is what will have to happen to enforce electricty-by-load variable
taxation.

or by type of vehical as they do now.Everyone I assume those with a car pay road tax but the goventemnt don't have to know how far you've traveled in order to bill you.


It will not work. Not because of the tech, but because no bugger will be
able to agree on the tech, there being dozens of "buggers" involved
(stakeholders) - and worse, the government will be involved, moving the
goalposts every 3 months.

That's what's happening with smartmeters or rather the software.
very nice ideas thought up by managers that haven't a clue we have that here I see where it comes from.


If you think that's going to end well, have a look at the track record
on large IT State-connected projects.

So the answer will be to tax cars electricity at exactly the same as any other applience.
Why do you think a new tax will be needed and why will it have to depend on car charging.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 14:26:20 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:09:31 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for which you don't.

What?

What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But it would appear to the meter that it was on and off use like domestic appliances.

so, what will a car be called a non dometisc applience whicvh gets free electricity paid for by the govenrment ?

It's paid for by me, at the same rate as my household electricity, just not overly taxed like petrol. Petrol has 400% tax!

can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK cars.

Their owners.

--
The New York Times, among other papers, recently published a new Hubble photograph of distant galaxies colliding.
Of course, astronomers have had pictures of colliding galaxies for quite some time now, but with the vastly improved resolution provided by the Hubble Space Telescope, you can actually see the lawyers rushing to the scene...

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:21:44 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:34:52 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what you spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the electricity for.

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing us for it.

No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more for car diesel than farm diesel.

The electric companies will be charging for electricity for your car just like they do for your kettle. So I'm not sure what eadvantage it is to turn a kettle on and off on and off I doubt iut saves money any more than it would if charging a car.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax on electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

who gives a ****.

Me, when there are two vastly different rates.

The only way the meter could be sure what you use it for is if there were two seperate outputs from the meter, one to the car charging socket, and one to the rest of your house. And what's to stop you just connecting the car to the wrong outlet?

you have a ****ing meter just like you have a petrol guage in the car not in the house as then it will be used at garages and friends houses and anywhere else you charge from.
All yuo need in yuor home smartmeter is teh ability to communicate with the car, them everything else is controlled from the car.
If for any reason yuor smartmeter needs to know how much you charge the car up it interigest the car for the info.
These sort of communication have been around for years oon formuala one and the like transmitting info back to the pits about all sorts of car systems.

I'd disconnect that ****. My electricity company has no business knowing what I use my electricity for. It could be my dishwasher, my car, or a marijuana farm.

--
I told my wife the truth. I told her I was seeing a psychiatrist.
Then she told me the truth: that she was seeing a psychiatrist, two plumbers, and a bartender.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

The only way the meter could be sure what you use it for is if there were
two seperate outputs from the meter, one to the car charging socket, and
one to the rest of your house.

The other perfectly viable approach is for the car charger to
have to indicate to the smart meter that it is a car charger
before the smart meter will allow it to use any power.

And what's to stop you just connecting the car to the wrong outlet?

It wont get any power unless it says it's a car charger.

And because it has to identify itself, you can't just block
that signalling, because then it wouldn't be able to say
'I am car charger 367822cdf, send me electricity now'

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for which
you don't.
What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But if the smartmeter can't work out that its being used to charge a car,
the consumer wouldn't be charged the EXTRA tax when the electricity is
used to charge a car because they don't get any petrol tax with that car.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into. Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers and having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some electricity. Connect one to the other.

--
You know, sometimes I get the sudden urge to run around naked.
But then I just drink some Windex. It keeps me from streaking.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it
will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force
electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want
cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into.

Yes.

Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

Impossible if the car is designed so you can't do that.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax
on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers and
having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some
electricity. Connect one to the other.

Not possible with a car that is designed so you can't
get into the area where the battery.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:25:03 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it
will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force
electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want
cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into.

Yes.

Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

Impossible if the car is designed so you can't do that.

What would the car do if I tried to charge its battery? Attack me?

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax
on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers and
having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some
electricity. Connect one to the other.

Not possible with a car that is designed so you can't
get into the area where the battery.

Very easy to access part of a car.

--
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to high office" - Aesop

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:25:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it
will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will
be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making
a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force
electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the
missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter
to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation
occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want
cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what
you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into.

Yes.

Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

Impossible if the car is designed so you can't do that.

What would the car do if I tried to charge its battery? Attack me?

Just stop you charging its battery.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax
on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity
for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers
and
having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some
electricity. Connect one to the other.

Not possible with a car that is designed so you can't
get into the area where the battery.

Very easy to access part of a car.

Not when its designed to stop you doing that.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 01:05:59 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:25:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it
will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will
be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making
a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force
electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the
missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter
to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation
occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want
cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what
you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into.

Yes.

Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

Impossible if the car is designed so you can't do that.

What would the car do if I tried to charge its battery? Attack me?

Just stop you charging its battery.

It's not capable of that unless it can cut my hand off while I'm connecting the wires.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax
on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity
for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers
and
having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some
electricity. Connect one to the other.

Not possible with a car that is designed so you can't
get into the area where the battery.

Very easy to access part of a car.

Not when its designed to stop you doing that.

Impossible.

--
"Naff" is actually an old gay slang for useless, from its original meaning of 'heterosexual' i.e. Not Available For ****ing.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 01:05:59 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:25:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:54:01 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:31:26 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:58:36 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:36:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it
will
take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will
be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are
making
a
lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force
electric
car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the
missing
fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter
to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation
occurs.

Far too easy to get around.

In the same way you can get any ATM to give you anything you want
cash
wise
?

The ATM is not on my property.

Irrelevant to the fact that you can't get around an ATM to give
you anything you want cash wise. Just as true of billing what
power you have used to charge the car, you can't get around
that either if it is properly done.

No, with an ATM it knows precisely how much is in your account and
precisely how much cash it gives you. It doesn't know however, what
you
spend the cash on. The meter also doesn't know what you use the
electricity for.

It can do with a properly designed system where the car
charger has to signal to the smart meter that it's a car
charger before the system will allow it to use the power.

And that signalling can be just as secure and impossible
to work around as net banking is already.

It's a big battery you need to get power into.

Yes.

Very easy to charge yourself, off a non-car circuit in your house.

Impossible if the car is designed so you can't do that.

What would the car do if I tried to charge its battery? Attack me?

Just stop you charging its battery.

It's not capable of that unless it can cut my hand off while I'm
connecting the wires.

You can't connect the wires unless you
can get access to where the battery is.

With electricity, we are talking about routing power,

No, we are talking about getting around the system used for
billing.

That isnt easy to get around either.

We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding
tax
on
electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity
for.

Yes, but when it is clearly possible to do net banking in
a way that can't be worked around, the same thing can
be done with the power billing system too, impossible
to work around. That is already done with smart meters
in the sense of being impossible to work around.

Nope, with net banking you're dealing with commands between computers
and
having to hack into code. With a car, it's just a battery and some
electricity. Connect one to the other.

Not possible with a car that is designed so you can't
get into the area where the battery.

Very easy to access part of a car.

Not when its designed to stop you doing that.

Impossible.

Must be why we don't have safes.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:39:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

So why tax it, if it's that cheap it'd cost mor eto collect the tax that you get.




so, what will a car be called a non dometisc applience whicvh gets free electricity paid for by the govenrment ?

It's paid for by me, at the same rate as my household electricity, just not overly taxed like petrol. Petrol has 400% tax!

Well if it's paid by you someone has to work out how much you owe them.
Now if the company that supplies you with the electricity doesn't know how much you're taking from them.... and if they do which is what I suspect then the govenment will ask them.

What you havent explained is why the govenrment will choose to tax electricity differntly for cars. They dont tax it differntly for kettle TV, washing machine and storage raidators.


can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK cars.

Their owners.

exactly so why all, this woryy about how will the govenment tax these owners.


--
The New York Times, among other papers, recently published a new Hubble photograph of distant galaxies colliding.
Of course, astronomers have had pictures of colliding galaxies for quite some time now, but with the vastly improved resolution provided by the Hubble Space Telescope, you can actually see the lawyers rushing to the scene...

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:42:09 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing us for it.


No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more for car diesel than farm diesel.

Why would they decide to charge more for car electicity. Why would the electricity copmpany care ?



We're not talking about getting free electricity, or even avoiding tax on electricity, just lying about what you are using that electricity for.

who gives a ****.

Me, when there are two vastly different rates.

Why would there be two vastly different rates ?


The only way the meter could be sure what you use it for is if there were two seperate outputs from the meter, one to the car charging socket, and one to the rest of your house. And what's to stop you just connecting the car to the wrong outlet?

you have a ****ing meter just like you have a petrol guage in the car not in the house as then it will be used at garages and friends houses and anywhere else you charge from.
All yuo need in yuor home smartmeter is teh ability to communicate with the car, them everything else is controlled from the car.
If for any reason yuor smartmeter needs to know how much you charge the car up it interigest the car for the info.
These sort of communication have been around for years oon formuala one and the like transmitting info back to the pits about all sorts of car systems.

I'd disconnect that ****. My electricity company has no business knowing what I use my electricity for. It could be my dishwasher, my car, or a marijuana farm.

why would your electricity company care it dosn;t ate the momnent are you saying that you get charge differnt prices depending on whether yuo plug the kettle or teh dishwasher in ? Never heard of that before.
Do yuo disconnect E7 economy tarrof two so the elecric company can't tell when or what you're charging.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:04:36 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for which
you don't.
What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But if the smartmeter can't work out that its being used to charge a car,

why would the smart meter need be able to work that out. ?
The car would know whether it's being charged or not.


the consumer wouldn't be charged the EXTRA tax when the electricity is
used to charge a car because they don't get any petrol tax with that car.

The donlt get any petrol tx from tampons either, they'll just tax the purchase of the car or teh car could communicate with the smarmeter or it could be lft up to the user to submit the data from the car.

You;re also assuming the govenment will tax electricity more if you use it for aq car than anything esle I don;t see this as the way forward all they;ll do is tax ALL electricity more. If they really want people to go electric they;ll start taxing electric used in cars less than normal electric.

On 14/04/2016 12:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:42:09 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing us for it.

No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more for car diesel than farm diesel.
Why would they decide to charge more for car electicity. Why would the electricity copmpany care ?



The government would probably increase the tax on car electricity, just
as they have increased the tax on car diesel over farm diesel.

The motorist is seen to have lots of money, and can be taxed heavily.

Andy

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:39:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:


What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

So why tax it, if it's that cheap it'd cost mor eto collect the tax that
you get.

They do that anyway with dog licenses etc.

so, what will a car be called a non dometisc applience whicvh gets free
electricity paid for by the govenrment ?

It's paid for by me, at the same rate as my household electricity, just
not overly taxed like petrol. Petrol has 400% tax!

Well if it's paid by you someone has to work out how much you owe them.
Now if the company that supplies you with the electricity doesn't know how
much you're taking from them.... and if they do which is what I suspect
then the govenment will ask them.

What you havent explained is why the govenrment will choose to tax
electricity differntly for cars. They dont tax it differntly for kettle
TV, washing machine and storage raidators.


can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK
cars.

Their owners.

exactly so why all, this woryy about how will the govenment tax these
owners.


--
The New York Times, among other papers, recently published a new Hubble
photograph of distant galaxies colliding.
Of course, astronomers have had pictures of colliding galaxies for quite
some time now, but with the vastly improved resolution provided by the
Hubble Space Telescope, you can actually see the lawyers rushing to the
scene...

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for
a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem
worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't
have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less
as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol
and has more harmful polutants

Because they get significantly better mpg and it ends up
cheaper to run and the engine is a lot more reliable too.

so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.

It doesn't.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:04:36 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch,
for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for
which
you don't.
What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But if the smartmeter can't work out that its being used to charge a car,

why would the smart meter need be able to work that out. ?

Because we are discussing how electric cars could be taxed
when there are enough of them that not enough tax is collected
via the taxation of petrol used in cars.

The car would know whether it's being charged or not.

And it need to tell the system that it is being charged so
that electricity can be taxed at a higher rate because
it is being used to charge a car.


the consumer wouldn't be charged the EXTRA tax when the electricity is
used to charge a car because they don't get any petrol tax with that car.

reams of your mindless silly **** flushed where it belongs

You;re also assuming the govenment will tax electricity more if you use it
for aq car than anything esle

Not assuming anything. That happens to be what was being discussed
and whether it would be possible to have a system that could not be
easily avoided. Of course it is possible to do that.

I don;t see this as the way forward all they;ll do is tax ALL electricity
more.

They wouldn't be able to do that because the voters would give
any govt stupid enough to do that the bums rush at the next election.

If they really want people to go electric

That wasn't what was being discussed.

they;ll start taxing electric used in cars less than normal electric.

You really should try replying when not completely ****ing blotto.

I realise that there isnt any time like that with you.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:27:35 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:04:36 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch,
for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for
which
you don't.
What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But if the smartmeter can't work out that its being used to charge a car,

why would the smart meter need be able to work that out. ?

Because we are discussing how electric cars could be taxed
when there are enough of them that not enough tax is collected
via the taxation of petrol used in cars.

Mileometer. GPS. ANPR cameras on major roads.

The car would know whether it's being charged or not.

And it need to tell the system that it is being charged so
that electricity can be taxed at a higher rate because
it is being used to charge a car.

Too easy to get round. See my three suggestions above. But don't tell the UK government because they'll never think of it.

the consumer wouldn't be charged the EXTRA tax when the electricity is
used to charge a car because they don't get any petrol tax with that car.

reams of your mindless silly **** flushed where it belongs

Is that a Function key?

P.S. you're replying to yourself here. YOU wrote "the consumer wouldn't be charged....", so you're saying you write mindless ****.

You;re also assuming the govenment will tax electricity more if you use it
for aq car than anything esle

Not assuming anything. That happens to be what was being discussed
and whether it would be possible to have a system that could not be
easily avoided. Of course it is possible to do that.

Never assume anything with a government, they don't use common sense, logic, or anything else which requires intelligence.

I don;t see this as the way forward all they;ll do is tax ALL electricity
more.

They wouldn't be able to do that because the voters would give
any govt stupid enough to do that the bums rush at the next election.

Likewise with people prying into what they do with our cars. I nearly voted anarchist in this election, but the "get the **** out of Europe" party got my vote instead.

If they really want people to go electric

That wasn't what was being discussed.

Then we shall start a further discussion and widen our horizons.

they;ll start taxing electric used in cars less than normal electric.

You really should try replying when not completely ****ing blotto.

I realise that there isnt any time like that with you.

I was just about to remind you of that. Thing is I make more sense when drunk. Ethanol is a fuel, just like glucose, it enhances thought processes.

--
Q. What did the sign on the door of the whorehouse say?
A. Beat it - we're closed.

"Vir Campestris" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 14/04/2016 12:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:42:09 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to
charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear
energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing
us for it.

No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that
they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more
for car diesel than farm diesel.
Why would they decide to charge more for car electicity. Why would the
electricity copmpany care ?



The government would probably increase the tax on car electricity, just as
they have increased the tax on car diesel over farm diesel.

The motorist is seen to have lots of money, and can be taxed heavily.

More that tax is available from them.

The poll tax taxes everyone.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:27:35 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:04:36 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 13:25:42 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time
then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what
you
are plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch,
for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just
make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a
different
level each time.

That would depend on how you think the electicity will be paid for
which
you don't.
What you be the advantage of stopping and starting charging a car ?
The amount of electricity used will be pretty much the same.

But if the smartmeter can't work out that its being used to charge a
car,

why would the smart meter need be able to work that out. ?

Because we are discussing how electric cars could be taxed
when there are enough of them that not enough tax is collected
via the taxation of petrol used in cars.

Mileometer. GPS. ANPR cameras on major roads.

Much more expensive than doing it at the charger.

The car would know whether it's being charged or not.

And it need to tell the system that it is being charged so
that electricity can be taxed at a higher rate because
it is being used to charge a car.

Too easy to get round.

Impossible to get around, like with the smart meter
for the rest of the use of electricity in the house.

See my three suggestions above. But don't tell the UK government because
they'll never think of it.

They already have with the congestion charge.

the consumer wouldn't be charged the EXTRA tax when the electricity is
used to charge a car because they don't get any petrol tax with that
car.

reams of your mindless silly **** flushed where it belongs

You;re also assuming the govenment will tax electricity more if you use
it
for aq car than anything esle

Not assuming anything. That happens to be what was being discussed
and whether it would be possible to have a system that could not be
easily avoided. Of course it is possible to do that.

Never assume anything with a government, they don't use common sense,
logic, or anything else which requires intelligence.

I don;t see this as the way forward all they;ll do is tax ALL
electricity
more.

They wouldn't be able to do that because the voters would give
any govt stupid enough to do that the bums rush at the next election.

Likewise with people prying into what they do with our cars.

Didn't happen with the ANPR cameras.

I nearly voted anarchist in this election, but the "get the **** out of
Europe" party got my vote instead.

And that didn't even get even a single member
elected, just one refugee from the Torys who
would have got re-elected whatever party
he belonged to.

If they really want people to go electric

That wasn't what was being discussed.

Then we shall start a further discussion and widen our horizons.

Nope, they already encourage people to
go electric by giving them a free MOT etc.

they;ll start taxing electric used in cars less than normal electric.

You really should try replying when not completely ****ing blotto.

I realise that there isnt any time like that with you.

I was just about to remind you of that. Thing is I make more sense when
drunk.

That was a comment to Dave the sot, not you.

Ethanol is a fuel, just like glucose, it enhances thought processes.

Doesn't work with ear to ear dog **** like Dave the sot has.

In article ,
whisky-dave scribeth thus
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have
an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as
there's no huge battery replacement cost).



Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and
has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.


My old Audi A6 estate 2.0 L Petrol average MPG 25 if i was lucky.

New diseasel A6 2 litre 41 to the gallon, no problem
--
Tony Sayer

On 15/04/16 12:22, tony sayer wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave scribeth thus
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have
an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as
there's no huge battery replacement cost).



Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and
has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.


My old Audi A6 estate 2.0 L Petrol average MPG 25 if i was lucky.

New diseasel A6 2 litre 41 to the gallon, no problem

A fair bit of that is turbocharging.

turbo=small engine that runs efficiently at low power, but with extra
there if its needed.

Diesel maybe 15% on top of that.


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 21:24:35 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 14/04/2016 12:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:42:09 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing us for it.

No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more for car diesel than farm diesel.
Why would they decide to charge more for car electicity. Why would the electricity copmpany care ?



The government would probably increase the tax on car electricity,


what is the current tax on car electricity ?

just
as they have increased the tax on car diesel over farm diesel.

The motorist is seen to have lots of money, and can be taxed heavily.

Andy

So add £2k or whatever to every new battery powered car purchased.

Or they could re-invent road tax as electricity tax and every electric car with DLVC pay the tax. as simple as road tax .

It's no where near as difficult as some are claiming.

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:44:02 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:


They do that anyway with dog licenses etc.

we haven't had dog licenses since 1987, do you have a licence

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:50:23 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for
a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem
worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't
have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less
as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol
and has more harmful polutants

Because they get significantly better mpg and it ends up
cheaper to run and the engine is a lot more reliable too.

Right so all you have to do is find ways to make peolpe want electric cars and I don;t think teh govenemtn puttiung a huge tax on them to replace teh tax they lose on pertol will work.

On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:20:05 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:50:23 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for
a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem
worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't
have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less
as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol
and has more harmful polutants

Because they get significantly better mpg and it ends up
cheaper to run and the engine is a lot more reliable too.

Right so all you have to do is find ways to make peolpe want electric cars and I don;t think teh govenemtn puttiung a huge tax on them to replace teh tax they lose on pertol will work.

You need to find no such thing. We should continue to use diesel until oil runs out or they make really good batteries. The only advantage now of everyone using electric is that the roads would be quieter and I wouldn't hear the bypass when the wind is coming from the wrong direction.

--
If you jog in a jogging suit, lounge in lounging pyjamas, and smoke in a smoking jacket, why would anyone want to wear a windbreaker?

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:19:45 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.

Actually it's the same price as petrol. It usually differs by only a few pence, and that can be in either direction. But you must have noticed diesel cars get FAR MORE mpg.

--
A Irish family is sitting in the living room.
The wife turns to the husband and says, "Let's send the kids out back to p-l-a-y , so we can ****."

On 15/04/2016 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:44:02 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:


They do that anyway with dog licenses etc.

we haven't had dog licenses since 1987, do you have a licence


Nonsense! I've been buying two every year from a chap in the pub, who
gets them at a discount. They're only £20 from him. He says they'd be
£25 from the post office.

Bill

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:09:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:39:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

So why tax it, if it's that cheap it'd cost mor eto collect the tax that you get.

Because they're stupid. We should abolish all taxes and just put it in one single place - income tax. WAY less paperwork.

so, what will a car be called a non dometisc applience whicvh gets free electricity paid for by the govenrment ?

It's paid for by me, at the same rate as my household electricity, just not overly taxed like petrol. Petrol has 400% tax!

Well if it's paid by you someone has to work out how much you owe them.
Now if the company that supplies you with the electricity doesn't know how much you're taking from them.... and if they do which is what I suspect then the govenment will ask them.

They already do, everybody has an electric meter and pays 4% tax on what they use.

What you havent explained is why the govenrment will choose to tax electricity differntly for cars. They dont tax it differntly for kettle TV, washing machine and storage raidators.

I don't think they will try, and they certainly won't manage to with me.

can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK cars.

Their owners.

exactly so why all, this woryy about how will the govenment tax these owners.

People are concerned that the tax on car electricity will shoot up so we pay just as much as we do now for petrol. And changing to electric cars will all have been for nothing.

--
Best Friend Experiment:
Put your dog and your wife in the trunk of the car for an hour.
When you open the trunk, who is really happy to see you!

On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 03:33:55 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

On 15/04/2016 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:44:02 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:


They do that anyway with dog licenses etc.

we haven't had dog licenses since 1987, do you have a licence


Nonsense! I've been buying two every year from a chap in the pub, who
gets them at a discount. They're only £20 from him. He says they'd be
£25 from the post office.

One born every minute.


--
The reason people sweat is so that they won't catch fire when having sex..

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:43:55 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:39:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:


What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

So why tax it, if it's that cheap it'd cost mor eto collect the tax that
you get.

They do that anyway with dog licenses etc.

You don't still use those do you? What purpose do they serve?

--
The reason people sweat is so that they won't catch fire when having sex.

On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:15:18 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 21:24:35 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 14/04/2016 12:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:42:09 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:

and why would that matter. Are you assuming that the electricity to charge yuor car will be free, just like I was told that nuclear energy would be so cheap in teh furture they wouldn't bother billing us for it.

No, I'm referring to what was monitored earlier in the thread, that they would charge MORE for car electricity, just as they charge more for car diesel than farm diesel.
Why would they decide to charge more for car electicity. Why would the electricity copmpany care ?



The government would probably increase the tax on car electricity,


what is the current tax on car electricity ?

4%, same as any other electricity.

just as they have increased the tax on car diesel over farm diesel.

The motorist is seen to have lots of money, and can be taxed heavily.

Andy

So add £2k or whatever to every new battery powered car purchased.

Or they could re-invent road tax as electricity tax and every electric car with DLVC pay the tax. as simple as road tax .

It's no where near as difficult as some are claiming.

With petrol and diesel tax, they charge you according to how much driving you do, Unless they put a GPS unit in the electric car and spy on you, that will no longer be possible. We don't want GPS units, or people would all be getting done for speeding 100 times a day.

--
A group of cowboys were branding some cattle.
While they were out the cook saw a sheep tied to a post. Thinking it was for that nights dinner he cooked it.
That night after dinner the cowboys were all sulking and ignoring the cook. He pulled one aside and asked, "Did I screw up the cooking?"
"No", the cowboy replied, "You cooked up the screwing."

On Friday, 15 April 2016 21:19:11 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:20:05 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 22:50:23 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you
are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with
smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other
things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for
a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make
the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem
worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't
have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less
as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol
and has more harmful polutants

Because they get significantly better mpg and it ends up
cheaper to run and the engine is a lot more reliable too.

Right so all you have to do is find ways to make peolpe want electric cars and I don;t think teh govenemtn puttiung a huge tax on them to replace teh tax they lose on pertol will work.

You need to find no such thing. We should continue to use diesel until oil runs out.

But oli will always be useful don;t use it all up.

? or they make really good batteries. The only advantage now of everyone using electric is that the roads would be quieter,

and less polluting.

and I wouldn't hear the bypass when the wind is coming from the wrong direction.

Your personal problem are your own concern but I;d have less fry-ups if I were you

On Friday, 15 April 2016 21:19:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:19:45 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.

Actually it's the same price as petrol. It usually differs by only a few pence, and that can be in either direction. But you must have noticed diesel cars get FAR MORE mpg.

Then why do the majority have petrol cars. Could it be that diesel cars cost more because that's what I was told.




--
A Irish family is sitting in the living room.
The wife turns to the husband and says, "Let's send the kids out back to p-l-a-y , so we can ****."

On Saturday, 16 April 2016 16:42:33 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:09:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:39:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:23:58 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


What is it going to cost to fill up with electricity ?
Simple question.
Or how much per kw

**** all compared to overly taxed petrol.

So why tax it, if it's that cheap it'd cost mor eto collect the tax that you get.

Because they're stupid. We should abolish all taxes and just put it in one single place - income tax. WAY less paperwork.

You think they want to cut down on paperwork ?



Well if it's paid by you someone has to work out how much you owe them.
Now if the company that supplies you with the electricity doesn't know how much you're taking from them.... and if they do which is what I suspect then the govenment will ask them.

They already do, everybody has an electric meter and pays 4% tax on what they use.

I don't.



What you havent explained is why the govenrment will choose to tax electricity differntly for cars. They dont tax it differntly for kettle TV, washing machine and storage raidators.

I don't think they will try, and they certainly won't manage to with me.

yeah like yuor super inteligent ..... you've said your already paying



can you tell me who's going to pay for the elecicity used to drive UK cars.

Their owners.

exactly so why all, this woryy about how will the govenment tax these owners.

People are concerned that the tax on car electricity will shoot up so we pay just as much as we do now for petrol.

yes so, that's the way these things have always worked.

And changing to electric cars will all have been for nothing.

which is why they won;t be puthing high taxes on electricity used for drving cars.



--
Best Friend Experiment:
Put your dog and your wife in the trunk of the car for an hour.
When you open the trunk, who is really happy to see you!

On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:21:42 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 15 April 2016 21:19:49 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:19:45 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:53:50 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:23:54 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 11 April 2016 22:23:02 UTC+1, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:49:36 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

Then don't plug in 1 million mp3 players at the same time then.
As this would be how a smartmeter could detect and know what you are
plugging in.
I do know someone that was writing an app for use with smartmeters.

Easy enough to make your car charge unevenly to simulate other things.

No it would't be in reality.
Sure you could just charge your car at 100ma the same as a torch, for a
few weeks, but no one would care would they.

But we use things like kettles, tumble driers, etc. So you just make the
car charge then stop then charge then stop, preferably at a different
level each time.

Problem with that approach is that a normal 13A charger isnt anything
like good enough for an electric car used to go to work and back every
day, and playing silly buggers like that will only make that problem worse.

Then use more than 13A. I can take 80A into my house right now (I don't have an electric car) without them asking me why.

IMO most wouldn't bother and would just pay the tax.

Then they're idiots, as a diesel would then cost the same (in fact less as there's no huge battery replacement cost).

Why do people have diesel driven cars as it;'s mnore expenive than pertol and has more harmful polutants so why buy a car that costs more in fuel to run.

Actually it's the same price as petrol. It usually differs by only a few pence, and that can be in either direction. But you must have noticed diesel cars get FAR MORE mpg.

Then why do the majority have petrol cars. Could it be that diesel cars cost more because that's what I was told.

Petrol cars are more common for stupid reasons, like "diesels smells nasty" (to me they both smell equally), "they won't start in cold weather" (at -20C perhaps, which doesn't happen in the UK a lot), "they make more noise than a petrol engine" (not really), "the fuel costs more" (don't these people understand mpg or longevity of the engine?)

--
Why do they rate a movie "R" for "adult language?"
The only people I hear using that language are teenagers.