On 06/04/2016 16:36, harry wrote:


You can improve range by cunning driving/route selection.

Or driving at 20 mph. Shame Jeremy Clarkson has left Top Gear, electric
cars could become the new caravans.

On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it will take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force electric car
owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing fuel
duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.

On Thursday, 7 April 2016 11:32:45 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 06/04/2016 16:36, harry wrote:


You can improve range by cunning driving/route selection.

Or driving at 20 mph.

That's exceeding the average speed in london isnt it.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/updat...mph-in-london/

On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

In article , Andrew
writes
On 05/04/2016 14:02, Mr Macaw wrote:


Only if we all started at once. What will really happen is it will take
decades for everyone to take them up, and the substations will be
gradually upgraded. And since the electric companies are making a lot
more money, they can spend that on the transformers.

ROFL. The RECS will be 'persuading' the government to force electric
car owners to have a smart meter and either charge them all the missing
fuel duty and car tax via their leccy bill, or simply tell the meter to
instruct the car to stop charging when a brownout situation occurs.
An interesting analysis from today's telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...d---elon-musks
-electric-cars-arent-about-to-save-th/
--
bert

On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon - and you can always
cut the plug off (or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon - and you can always
cut the plug off (or run it through a signal blocking filter)

Do that and it doesn’t charge at all, because the protocol doesn’t even
start.

- as the mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent
before supplying power.

But the car does need to signal what voltage etc it needs.

On 06/04/2016 10:45, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 12:13:18 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

I have a friend with a Nissan Leaf - heating it does indeed make quite
an impact on the range. You can mitigate it a bit by having it preheat
while still connected to the mains (there is a remote control app for
your phone). His model seems a bit daft in that it uses an electrical
resistance heater to heat water, which is then circulated through a
conventional car style heating system.

Using the water as a heat bank? Seems sensible...

Using water to move the heat about is ok, in that it presumably lets
them make use of a conventional heater matrix and ventilation system.
Heating the water resistively from battery is less good, and doing it
with a heater that you can't turn off even in summer seems daft.

Later models apparently now include a heat pump style heater which takes
less power.

That makes sense when you are relying on the battery, 1 kW in 2 to 3
kW out...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 07/04/16 20:24, Thomas Johns wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon - and you can
always cut the plug off (or run it through a signal blocking filter)

Do that and it doesn’t charge at all, because the protocol doesn’t even
start.

- as the mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its
intent before supplying power.

But the car does need to signal what voltage etc it needs.

Hi Rod...

On 06/04/2016 08:10, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 April 2016 22:08:32 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/04/2016 16:12, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:51:32 UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:
In article
, harry
scribeth thus
On Friday, 1 April 2016 21:14:26 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:47, whisky-dave wrote:


So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ? but
can only do 215 miles.....


With a new battery! What mileage can it achieve on a single
charge when the battery is a 1 or 2 years old?


-- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Lots of people here rabbiting on with zero knowledge. My car
is 2012, any battery deterioration is undetectable.

Well well Harry, perhaps you've e found a way to reverse
chemical ageing you might get a Nobel prize for that!!....

-- Tony Sayer


Well ****-fer-brains, you don't suppose electric cars are not
fitted with range remaining and battery charge condition
instruments? If so you must be really brain dead.

All I have to go on is the instruments fitted to the car. The
battery "fullness" indicator hasn't changed much on the regular
journeys I make. The "pips" disappear at the same places on a
journey that they always have.

I always charge the battery at optimum time/conditions.

You might find it informative to see if there is a smart phone app
for talking directly to the car's diagnostics. My friend with the
Leaf found that there is a world of difference between what the in
car displays tell him, and what the sensors are actually recording
before "processing" by the car.


T The cars instrumentation displays as much as it measures. So
interpretation of the sensors won't tell you anything more.

On the leaf they clearly don't... For example, the real time readout
from the diagnostics show that the in care display speed is both
averaged, and also scaled so as to over-read. The unprocessed speed is
accurate when measured against a GPS, and shows far more small variations.

The physical condition of any battery can only be determined by
completely charging and discharging the battery and measuring
voltages and currents.

Again the diagnostic readout will allow you to read a battery health
figured based on recent full discharge results. It provides for more
detail than the much cruder limited number of "steps" shown by the car.
FWIW, on my mate's car it has dropped from around 92% capacity when he
got it, to about 87% now.

I don't know the operational principle of the panel instrumentation,
ie instantaneous charge/discharge current, power remaining in the
battery and range remaining. It seems to be unconventional.

The instantaneous power is not calibrated and I don't know if it's
linear or not. But gives a good indication of what's happening and
(un)economic driving.

The range remaining computer is useless.

The power remaining in the battery seems to be spot on AFAICT.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?


(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 April 2016 14:18:35 UTC+1, Mike Barnes wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:
Just saw the launch of the new Tesla car, and at a claimed 215m to a
charge, I can see myself perhaps being persuaded to consider the
technology at some stage in the not near or medium future.

I have seen quite a few charging points (or whatever they are called) -
in most large European cities. I assume that the cost of a charge is set
so that it would be marginally lower to run such cars compared to
petrol/diesel cars.

AIUI those charging points are free to use. The true costs are in the
car's purchase and battery life. So you can't directly compare costs
without taking into account mileage and a host of other factors.

I took a test drive in a Tesla and was quite impressed. I recommend the
(free, no pressure) test drive to anyone with half an interest in the
topic and a couple of hours to spare. But the car makes no sense
economically for a low-mileage driver such as me.

So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ?
but can only do 215 miles.....

yesterday, I drove just over 400 miles.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.



(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb
USB charger.

Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,
so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

To make it happen, you are going to have to mandate that every socket in
the house and probably lots of other places have smart controllers in as
standard - and that the car manufacturers all agree to use the same plug
and protocol. That's not even true now with cars, other than most to
manage to have a 13A a common factor.

Then you'll have to make sure that no car will allow charging unless it
is plugged into a smart socket - which will go down well with people
stopping over at a family member's house.

Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

On 08/04/16 12:50, Mike Barnes wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.


That would be the only idea that might just work. But I don't see it
happening either, as by the time the government have thought about it,
the market will have a considerable number or non metered electric cars
in circulation.

It would be more easier to, after a certain point, whack the VED up
until the thing costs as much as a petrol car for some typical average
use case.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 April 2016 14:18:35 UTC+1, Mike Barnes wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:
Just saw the launch of the new Tesla car, and at a claimed 215m to a
charge, I can see myself perhaps being persuaded to consider the
technology at some stage in the not near or medium future.

I have seen quite a few charging points (or whatever they are
called) -
in most large European cities. I assume that the cost of a charge is
set
so that it would be marginally lower to run such cars compared to
petrol/diesel cars.

AIUI those charging points are free to use. The true costs are in the
car's purchase and battery life. So you can't directly compare costs
without taking into account mileage and a host of other factors.

I took a test drive in a Tesla and was quite impressed. I recommend the
(free, no pressure) test drive to anyone with half an interest in the
topic and a couple of hours to spare. But the car makes no sense
economically for a low-mileage driver such as me.

So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ?
but can only do 215 miles.....

yesterday, I drove just over 400 miles.


what is the relevance of that to the point in hand?

tim

On Friday, 8 April 2016 13:14:30 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.

Wont make any diffence as the smartness isn't in the plug
it's in the device.





(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb
USB charger.

yes I know and I'm betting appliances could be run in a simialr way or at least logged in a simialar way.



Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,
so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

They already transmit stuff over the mains for teh above and years before that you could have intercopms using teh mains to carry the speach signals.



To make it happen, you are going to have to mandate that every socket in
the house and probably lots of other places have smart controllers .

No you don't.



in as
standard - and that the car manufacturers all agree to use the same plug
and protocol. That's not even true now with cars, other than most to
manage to have a 13A a common factor.

If it's law they'll have to just like every mains plug has to have 3 pins.
Try legally buying a UK kettle without the IEC kettle version in use.




Then you'll have to make sure that no car will allow charging unless it
is plugged into a smart socket

No problem there, but of course you wouldn't have to make such a stupid idea.


- which will go down well with people
stopping over at a family member's house.

What happens if a car manufacureter decides it won't follow the standard for pertol caps and they make a differnt size nozels which can;t be used in gagare forcourts.....


Like I said, not happening anytime soon.

Proves you donlt know much about it that's all.

Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

No it isn't and it's already been done with E7.

You can plug anything into the main but yuo won't get the E7 rate until
the meter in yuor house tells you you can.

On 08/04/16 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

So they will tax batteries or something else, instead

If it doesn't move, tax it, if it moves, tax it.

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 06/04/2016 11:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 April 2016 07:59:29 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 April 2016 16:53:14 UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 April 2016 16:12:17 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:51:32 UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:
In article ,
harry scribeth thus
On Friday, 1 April 2016 21:14:26 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:47, whisky-dave wrote:


So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ?
but can only do 215 miles.....


With a new battery! What mileage can it achieve on a single charge when
the battery is a 1 or 2 years old?


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Lots of people here rabbiting on with zero knowledge.
My car is 2012, any battery deterioration is undetectable.

Well well Harry, perhaps you've e found a way to reverse chemical ageing
you might get a Nobel prize for that!!....

--
Tony Sayer


Well ****-fer-brains, you don't suppose electric cars are not fitted with range remaining and battery charge condition instruments?
If so you must be really brain dead.

I thought petrol and desal cars had similar for their fuel.
Does it stop people running out of fuel....

When you have an electric car, you develop a condition known as range anxiety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_anxiety

As they say it's just another thing that puts some off an electric car.

When you think about it, many of these cars have a 24kWh battery - the
same energy density as 2L of petrol. So if you allow for the
inefficiency of the petrol engine, that's like never putting more than
about a gallon and a half in your tank.

of course maybe there's a chance that there's a small battery you could use in the same ways as the can of pertol you keep in the boot for emergencies or you could just carry a mile or two of extention lead.

Or maybe carry a solar panel or windmill in the boot. If you realy only wanted to use green renewable energy ;-)

Mount the windmill on the roof, then you can generate lekky while you
are driving ;-))


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/04/2016 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 12:50, Mike Barnes wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.


That would be the only idea that might just work. But I don't see it
happening either, as by the time the government have thought about it,
the market will have a considerable number or non metered electric cars
in circulation.

Just make it a condition of insurance that you have a black box fitted
to the car that uses GPS to track its every move. Then they can road
price etc based on distance travelled. You can hear the control freaks
wetting themselves!


It would be more easier to, after a certain point, whack the VED up
until the thing costs as much as a petrol car for some typical average
use case.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , tim...
wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 April 2016 14:18:35 UTC+1, Mike Barnes wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:
Just saw the launch of the new Tesla car, and at a claimed 215m to
a charge, I can see myself perhaps being persuaded to consider the
technology at some stage in the not near or medium future.

I have seen quite a few charging points (or whatever they are
called) - in most large European cities. I assume that the cost of
a charge is set so that it would be marginally lower to run such
cars compared to petrol/diesel cars.

AIUI those charging points are free to use. The true costs are in
the car's purchase and battery life. So you can't directly compare
costs without taking into account mileage and a host of other
factors.

I took a test drive in a Tesla and was quite impressed. I recommend
the (free, no pressure) test drive to anyone with half an interest
in the topic and a couple of hours to spare. But the car makes no
sense economically for a low-mileage driver such as me.

So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ? but can only do
215 miles.....

yesterday, I drove just over 400 miles.


what is the relevance of that to the point in hand?

It means an electric car is no bloody use for the sort of driving I tend to
do.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 08/04/16 14:23, whisky-dave wrote:

No it isn't and it's already been done with E7.

Nothing like the same problem. The E7 simply records the whole house's
consumption and switches the recording to a different meter for a
specified period (be it time based or radio-switched).

You can plug anything into the main but yuo won't get the E7 rate until
the meter in yuor house tells you you can.

How exactly is that related to your meter recording how much your car
takes to charge, separated out from all the other load?

And even if you mandate that the car line signals over the mains wiring
to the meter[1], how does that get around:

a) Blocking the signal with filters?

b) Putting a big UPS in the way and charging that, then using that to
charge the car (tedious perhaps, but nevertheless).

The only sensible idea is mandating the meter is built into the car
itself. All this talk of somehow making the main house meter record "car
taxable" and "non car" consumption is nonsense. It's non trivial, too
easy to get around and too costly to implement.

Look, the bloody government can't even get "ordinary" smart meters right
with a single standard. How the hell are they going to pull off a stunt
like this?

I think it's you who hasn't thought this through!

On 08/04/16 15:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2016 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 12:50, Mike Barnes wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.


That would be the only idea that might just work. But I don't see it
happening either, as by the time the government have thought about it,
the market will have a considerable number or non metered electric cars
in circulation.

Just make it a condition of insurance that you have a black box fitted
to the car that uses GPS to track its every move. Then they can road
price etc based on distance travelled. You can hear the control freaks
wetting themselves!


Yes, yes I can

On 08/04/16 14:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/16 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

So they will tax batteries or something else, instead

That would be another angle.

All I'm saying is trying to split the charge at the house meter is
complete nonsense - especially as there are loads of easier ways, as you
just highlighted to add tax to an electric car

On Friday, 8 April 2016 16:46:11 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:23, whisky-dave wrote:

No it isn't and it's already been done with E7.

Nothing like the same problem. The E7 simply records the whole house's
consumption and switches the recording to a different meter for a
specified period (be it time based or radio-switched).

You can plug anything into the main but yuo won't get the E7 rate until
the meter in yuor house tells you you can.

How exactly is that related to your meter recording how much your car
takes to charge, separated out from all the other load?

The car charging system would know how much current it is taking and hence power, so would send the meter that value, and that's what it would use for evaluating how much to charge you.

And even if you mandate that the car line signals over the mains wiring
to the meter[1], how does that get around:

a) Blocking the signal with filters?

I'm not sure you could do that without being detected.


b) Putting a big UPS in the way and charging that, then using that to
charge the car (tedious perhaps, but nevertheless).

Might work if you can affod the UPS, I have one here beeping in teh lab at me, they aren't cheap. it'd cost £1000s.


The only sensible idea is mandating the meter is built into the car
itself.

It will need that anyway to regulate the charge.

All this talk of somehow making the main house meter record "car
taxable" and "non car" consumption is nonsense. It's non trivial, too
easy to get around and too costly to implement.

It really isn't that difficult.


Look, the bloody government can't even get "ordinary" smart meters right
with a single standard. How the hell are they going to pull off a stunt
like this?

I think it's you who hasn't thought this through!

it's already being worked on, and really isnt that difficult.
Even the simplest of systems would work, when the meter 'see's a sudden current surge in current as a car battery charging will have that effect, the rest is just simple calcluations.

another method would be to use the car itself. Now the govenrment some how know how much fuel you put it, they can work out the electric too by having a meter in teh car.

But if there are problems the govenrment would just set ther same VAT on all electicity supplied to your house as it does 'currently' ;-P.
It's not like the government will be doing it either they'll but the problem on the the electic companies.

But it does give me an idea for a student project.

On Friday, 8 April 2016 16:47:42 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/16 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

So they will tax batteries or something else, instead

That would be another angle.

All I'm saying is trying to split the charge at the house meter is
complete nonsense - especially as there are loads of easier ways, as you
just highlighted to add tax to an electric car

What makes you think the tax on electicity for cars will be any diffent from taxing the rest of the house.
The govenrment have managed to tax electricity you use for years now, so why would taxing electricity for cars be any differnt ?

On Friday, 8 April 2016 13:14:30 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.



(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb
USB charger.

Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,
so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

To make it happen, you are going to have to mandate that every socket in
the house and probably lots of other places have smart controllers in as
standard - and that the car manufacturers all agree to use the same plug
and protocol. That's not even true now with cars, other than most to
manage to have a 13A a common factor.

Then you'll have to make sure that no car will allow charging unless it
is plugged into a smart socket - which will go down well with people
stopping over at a family member's house.

Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

Which is why it will be some sort of GPS based device.
Which is what I said right at the begining.

On Friday, 8 April 2016 13:41:03 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 April 2016 14:18:35 UTC+1, Mike Barnes wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:
Just saw the launch of the new Tesla car, and at a claimed 215m to a
charge, I can see myself perhaps being persuaded to consider the
technology at some stage in the not near or medium future.

I have seen quite a few charging points (or whatever they are called) -
in most large European cities. I assume that the cost of a charge is set
so that it would be marginally lower to run such cars compared to
petrol/diesel cars.

AIUI those charging points are free to use. The true costs are in the
car's purchase and battery life. So you can't directly compare costs
without taking into account mileage and a host of other factors.

I took a test drive in a Tesla and was quite impressed. I recommend the
(free, no pressure) test drive to anyone with half an interest in the
topic and a couple of hours to spare. But the car makes no sense
economically for a low-mileage driver such as me.

So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ?
but can only do 215 miles.....

yesterday, I drove just over 400 miles.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

You must have a very boring job.
Better to take the train.

In article , harry
wrote:
On Friday, 8 April 2016 13:41:03 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 April 2016 14:18:35 UTC+1, Mike Barnes wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:
Just saw the launch of the new Tesla car, and at a claimed 215m
to a charge, I can see myself perhaps being persuaded to consider
the technology at some stage in the not near or medium future.

I have seen quite a few charging points (or whatever they are
called) - in most large European cities. I assume that the cost
of a charge is set so that it would be marginally lower to run
such cars compared to petrol/diesel cars.

AIUI those charging points are free to use. The true costs are in
the car's purchase and battery life. So you can't directly compare
costs without taking into account mileage and a host of other
factors.

I took a test drive in a Tesla and was quite impressed. I recommend
the (free, no pressure) test drive to anyone with half an interest
in the topic and a couple of hours to spare. But the car makes no
sense economically for a low-mileage driver such as me.

So what sort of driver is it aimed at long distance ? but can only do
215 miles.....

yesterday, I drove just over 400 miles.


You must have a very boring job.

It wasn't a job - I've been retired for nearly 20 years.

Better to take the train.

I had a car full of items.

When I do the same journey in May I will be going by train - tickets
already booked, but then it will only be me, a laptop computer and a change
of clothes.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.



(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb USB
charger.

Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,

But the car chargers have to be.

so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Wrong.

To make it happen, you are going to have to mandate that every socket in
the house and probably lots of other places have smart controllers in as
standard

Nope, just that the chargers that take more than 13A from the
mains to get a decent recharge time will obviously be observable
by the smart meter due to the length of time they take that much
power for.

- and that the car manufacturers all agree to use the same plug and
protocol.

Not when the smart meter just observes the power use.

That's not even true now with cars, other than most to manage to have a
13A a common factor.

Which is useless when you want a fast charge.

Then you'll have to make sure that no car will allow charging unless it is
plugged into a smart socket - which will go down well with people stopping
over at a family member's house.

You just have the smart bit in the charger.

Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

Perfectly possible to have the chargers meter the power used and
report it to the taxing authorities, like smart meters do right now.

On 08/04/16 17:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 April 2016 16:46:11 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:23, whisky-dave wrote:

No it isn't and it's already been done with E7.

Nothing like the same problem. The E7 simply records the whole house's
consumption and switches the recording to a different meter for a
specified period (be it time based or radio-switched).

You can plug anything into the main but yuo won't get the E7 rate until
the meter in yuor house tells you you can.

How exactly is that related to your meter recording how much your car
takes to charge, separated out from all the other load?

The car charging system would know how much current it is taking and hence power, so would send the meter that value, and that's what it would use for evaluating how much to charge you.

And even if you mandate that the car line signals over the mains wiring
to the meter[1], how does that get around:

a) Blocking the signal with filters?

I'm not sure you could do that without being detected.


b) Putting a big UPS in the way and charging that, then using that to
charge the car (tedious perhaps, but nevertheless).

Might work if you can affod the UPS, I have one here beeping in teh lab at me, they aren't cheap. it'd cost £1000s.


The only sensible idea is mandating the meter is built into the car
itself.

It will need that anyway to regulate the charge.

All this talk of somehow making the main house meter record "car
taxable" and "non car" consumption is nonsense. It's non trivial, too
easy to get around and too costly to implement.

It really isn't that difficult.


Look, the bloody government can't even get "ordinary" smart meters right
with a single standard. How the hell are they going to pull off a stunt
like this?

I think it's you who hasn't thought this through!

it's already being worked on, and really isnt that difficult.
Even the simplest of systems would work, when the meter 'see's a sudden current surge in current as a car battery charging will have that effect, the rest is just simple calcluations.


It might not be "that hard" in a lab.

Neither is coming up with a universal smart meter that all suppliers can
plug forumlaic tariffs[1] into, provides user friendly in house readout
units with facilities for visually impaired users. This particular
scenario seems quite easy to me - but it hasn't happened and probably
won't for a long time, just because it's hard getting a dozen
stakeholders to agree on anything.

[1] Because no one is going to be happy with "simple time based" - they
are going to want their own special blend of ways to charge their
customers - possibly adapting in real time to system load. So you need a
fairly general solution.

Now you are talking about retrofitting smart metering that logs
particular specific loads as well as the grand total plus all the funky
tarrifs, which not only involves all of the above stakeholders but also
has another (by the time they do this) several dozen or more
stakeholders (car manufacturers) - and that's just for cars. Imagine
extending to the socialist's utopia of having remote switching and
charging of various load classes (eg water heating and storage heating
as lowest priority through to "life support" as highest priority).

It's just not going to happen in the real world - not in my lifetime,
just due to the fact there are too many people involved, the government
are proven crap with defining IT standards so they won't just do it
either plus the immense installation base.

You then have to ask the question: Is there an easier way to solve the
problem (tax electric cars). Well, several have been proposed in this
thread that sound vaguely workable with varying degrees of tradeoffs, so
why would anyone proceed with the hardest solution?

On 08/04/16 16:47, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/16 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

So they will tax batteries or something else, instead

That would be another angle.

All I'm saying is trying to split the charge at the house meter is
complete nonsense - especially as there are loads of easier ways, as you
just highlighted to add tax to an electric car


Quite, it is easy to tax road fuel, it all comes from a few refineries,
what little of it is used for other purposes can be marked: apply the
tax at those pinch points and it becomes hard to avoid on a significant
scale.





--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 08/04/16 20:40, 3899jk wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope
it does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how
USB devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it
needs curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.



(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb
USB charger.

Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,

But the car chargers have to be.

so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Wrong.

To make it happen, you are going to have to mandate that every socket
in the house and probably lots of other places have smart controllers
in as standard

Nope, just that the chargers that take more than 13A from the
mains to get a decent recharge time will obviously be observable
by the smart meter due to the length of time they take that much
power for.

- and that the car manufacturers all agree to use the same plug and
protocol.

Not when the smart meter just observes the power use.

And your smart meter can be sure it's a car and not several storage
heaters taking charge?

That's not even true now with cars, other than most to manage to have
a 13A a common factor.

Which is useless when you want a fast charge.

And for people that don't do that much milage?

Then you'll have to make sure that no car will allow charging unless
it is plugged into a smart socket - which will go down well with
people stopping over at a family member's house.

You just have the smart bit in the charger.

Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared
to "normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like
fuel and it's too easy to circumvent.

Perfectly possible to have the chargers meter the power used and
report it to the taxing authorities, like smart meters do right now.

******** - with all due respect

On 08/04/16 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 12:50, Mike Barnes wrote:

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.


That would be the only idea that might just work. But I don't see it
happening either, as by the time the government have thought about it,
the market will have a considerable number or non metered electric cars
in circulation.

It would be more easier to, after a certain point, whack the VED up
until the thing costs as much as a petrol car for some typical average
use case.

Or simply change the basis of taxation for all vehicles to a road
pricing/toll/congestion charge model. With enough APNR points in use it
becomes possible to create tax cells: the ability to hop from one to
another without detection would be rather limited in most cases unless
you were really prepare to be forever going the long way round to
everywhere.



--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 08/04/2016 17:17, whisky-dave wrote:
What makes you think the tax on electicity for cars will be any diffent from taxing the rest of the house.
The govenrment have managed to tax electricity you use for years now, so why would taxing electricity for cars be any differnt ?

I pay a hell of a lot less for heating oil than the pump price for
Diesel. The taxing of that sort of stuff is already pretty different for
road use than domestic.

I'm sure they'd love to be able to tax electricity like that. Trouble is
you can't dye it red.

Andy

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 08/04/16 12:50, Mike Barnes wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.

My guess is that when this takes off in a big way (not for some time
yet, IMO) electrically powered vehicles will be fitted with devices to
log their electrical energy inputs. The excise people will be able to
read the logs, and charge (!) accordingly. Just a guess. I'll leave the
details to your imagination.

That would be the only idea that might just work.

There are other approaches that would work too like
requiring chargers that can't just be plugged into a
normal 13A outlet to record what power was used
and report that like smart meters do.

Or using the ANPR cameras to slug electric cars
like they already do with congestion taxes.

But I don't see it happening either,

Maybe not but that is more likely because they
might want to encourage the use of electric cars
as they already do by not charging for the MOT etc.

as by the time the government have thought about it, the market will have
a considerable number or non metered electric cars in circulation.

No reason it couldnt apply to just new ones.

It would be more easier to, after a certain point, whack the VED up until
the thing costs as much as a petrol car for some typical average use case.

Makes a lot more sense to charge by use so those
who use their electric cars a lot pay a lot more than
those who only use them much less often, say just for
shopping instead of to work and back every day etc.

On Friday, 8 April 2016 20:40:45 UTC+1, 3899jk wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 08/04/16 11:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 16:51:18 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 16:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:09:40 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/04/16 11:20, Andrew wrote:
On 01/04/2016 15:10, Another Dave wrote:

No. The point is that if this took off in a big way (and I hope it
does)
the government would have to tax electricity used to charge cars to
maintain its revenue. I don't know how this would work but I'm
certain
that it would happen.

Another Dave

And that is precisely what smart meters will be able to do. It knows
what is using power, so one day could simply slap the 'missing' fuel
duty and VAT onto your leccy bill.

How is it able to know?

I would assume by inbuilt chips in the products, simialer to how USB
devices talk to the computer and tell it what it is and what it needs
curretn wise and speed althogh speed wouldn't be needed.



Not too much danger of that happening anytime soon -

depends what you mean by anytime soon.

and you can always
cut the plug off .

then how will you plug it in ?

And put a non smart plug on it.



(or run it through a signal blocking filter) - as the
mains, unlike USB, does not need anything to declare its intent before
supplying power.

which makes it easier to do.
Like they do with those TP link ethernet extenders.


USB works the way it does, because it was designed to and the host is
always in control of the power delievered, unless the "host" is a dumb USB
charger.

Mains was not designed to have smart delivery and regulation of power,

But the car chargers have to be.

Why do you drivel on about topics when you don't even have an electric car?
Charger fall into two types.
AC (small) chargers use the car's onboard rectifier with a current limiting device. Mine limits to Kw 2.2

DC (fast) chargers that just have a current limiting device.
These are around 60Kw & there are not many around.
I don't use them anyway.

On Friday, 8 April 2016 20:54:07 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 17:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 April 2016 16:46:11 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:23, whisky-dave wrote:

No it isn't and it's already been done with E7.

Nothing like the same problem. The E7 simply records the whole house's
consumption and switches the recording to a different meter for a
specified period (be it time based or radio-switched).

You can plug anything into the main but yuo won't get the E7 rate until
the meter in yuor house tells you you can.

How exactly is that related to your meter recording how much your car
takes to charge, separated out from all the other load?

The car charging system would know how much current it is taking and hence power, so would send the meter that value, and that's what it would use for evaluating how much to charge you.

And even if you mandate that the car line signals over the mains wiring
to the meter[1], how does that get around:

a) Blocking the signal with filters?

I'm not sure you could do that without being detected.


b) Putting a big UPS in the way and charging that, then using that to
charge the car (tedious perhaps, but nevertheless).

Might work if you can affod the UPS, I have one here beeping in teh lab at me, they aren't cheap. it'd cost £1000s.


The only sensible idea is mandating the meter is built into the car
itself.

It will need that anyway to regulate the charge.

All this talk of somehow making the main house meter record "car
taxable" and "non car" consumption is nonsense. It's non trivial, too
easy to get around and too costly to implement.

It really isn't that difficult.


Look, the bloody government can't even get "ordinary" smart meters right
with a single standard. How the hell are they going to pull off a stunt
like this?

I think it's you who hasn't thought this through!

it's already being worked on, and really isnt that difficult.
Even the simplest of systems would work, when the meter 'see's a sudden current surge in current as a car battery charging will have that effect, the rest is just simple calcluations.


It might not be "that hard" in a lab.

Neither is coming up with a universal smart meter that all suppliers can
plug forumlaic tariffs[1] into, provides user friendly in house readout
units with facilities for visually impaired users. This particular
scenario seems quite easy to me - but it hasn't happened and probably
won't for a long time, just because it's hard getting a dozen
stakeholders to agree on anything.

[1] Because no one is going to be happy with "simple time based" - they
are going to want their own special blend of ways to charge their
customers - possibly adapting in real time to system load. So you need a
fairly general solution.

Now you are talking about retrofitting smart metering that logs
particular specific loads as well as the grand total plus all the funky
tarrifs, which not only involves all of the above stakeholders but also
has another (by the time they do this) several dozen or more
stakeholders (car manufacturers) - and that's just for cars. Imagine
extending to the socialist's utopia of having remote switching and
charging of various load classes (eg water heating and storage heating
as lowest priority through to "life support" as highest priority).

It's just not going to happen in the real world - not in my lifetime,
just due to the fact there are too many people involved, the government
are proven crap with defining IT standards so they won't just do it
either plus the immense installation base.

You then have to ask the question: Is there an easier way to solve the
problem (tax electric cars). Well, several have been proposed in this
thread that sound vaguely workable with varying degrees of tradeoffs, so
why would anyone proceed with the hardest solution?

He's a complete idiot.
Anything like that would be easy to defeat in any case.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 8 April 2016 16:47:42 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/04/16 14:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/16 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
Like I said, not happening anytime soon. Possibly ever. It's virtually
impossible to tax car electricity (the core point) specially compared
to
"normal" electricity as you cannot mark it in any special way like
fuel
and it's too easy to circumvent.

So they will tax batteries or something else, instead

That would be another angle.

All I'm saying is trying to split the charge at the house meter is
complete nonsense - especially as there are loads of easier ways, as you
just highlighted to add tax to an electric car

What makes you think the tax on electicity for cars will be any diffent
from taxing the rest of the house.
The govenrment have managed to tax electricity you use for years now, so
why would taxing electricity for cars be any differnt ?

The difference is that all the electricity used by the house is taxed.

It's a lot harder to tax the electricity used to charge the car.

Makes a lot more sense to tax the actual use of the electric
cars by using ANPR cameras or with a GPS in the car.