"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 02/02/16 17:52, dennis@home wrote:


That sounds like cr@p software. A reboot shouldn't really change
anything if the software is working correctly.


Of course it does if the chips have warmed up in between times

Not with gps fix times.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:42:31 +0000 (GMT+00:00), Chris French
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2016 14:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/02/16 12:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2016 12:06, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 09:15:14 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

I only use the phone as a GPS when I have to and it's no use mounted
on the handlebar of a motorbike in the rain or when being operated by
fingers wrapped in leather gloves. It is very reassuring to know I
have a GPS on me at all times though (and I have made use of it many
times and in ways I wouldn't have first predicted).

Indeed, I find I quite often use mine as the real time traffic
information is quite handy. Also the ability to not have to fondle it,
and just say "navigate to xyz" to it is quite nice. (just a bit annoying
that it does not understand a voice command to navigate to an address
that is in its phonebook, but will navigate to one that it can find on a
web search.

Now, if you don't actually crawl out from under your stone very often
or aren't someone who likes doing stuff in the moment, 'planning' a
route 3 weeks in advance could be considered the fun bit of any trip
(till the first road closure of course). ;-)

I just checked one list of available POI files, and they claim to have
300,000 different ones now.... TNPs probably going to have a hard time
avoiding all those places just so he can sock it to "the man".


I simply dont bother to even look. I either know the particular point of
interest (man made) that is driving me to a destination, or I look at a
map for scenery hints and so on.

Google maps is actually quite handy there. Satnavs less so.

You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am


And that is the thing ... it's no wonder someone might argue against
something when they have no idea the sort of things it can do. ;-(

Like arguing that Linux is ready for the ordinary user when it doesn't
support iTunes or half their additional hardware. The fact that the
Linux fanatic doesn't use iTunes or only uses their PC as a network
terminal is of no relevance whatsoever (to the point or the ordinary
user). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , T i m
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 15:55:45 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

Granted I normally have a navigator,

Ah, now we get the whole story ... "Yeah, I don't need a GPS ...
because I have a human navigator doing it all for me" rolls eyes

Why you rolling your eyes? Drunk or something? C'mon T i m , if you
have someone to do the navigating you (mostly) don't need a satnav.
Yes, a satnav would be useful when trying to to find some street in a
strange town at night. So we're thinking about getting one and have
been thinking about it for 10 years.

In our case, whoever is not driving is doing the navigating. And
whoever planned the trip has the responsibility to print off Google
Maps maps (which we keep and re-use for next time) and Street-Viewing
the destination area, too. Which can be very handy so that f'rinstance
I stay in the left lane just there and don't turn right over the edge
of Beachy Head.

Real time lane advisory with a satnav works a hell of a lot
better, essentially because you dont have to plan in advance.

And handles traffic congestion infinitely better than any
navigator can ever do.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 18:11:04 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 15:55:45 +0000, Clive George
wrote:
On 02/02/2016 12:06, T i m wrote:

I don't use a GPS, and route planning when driving involves getting in
the car, looking at the map and then going.

Good for finding 'Unit 3, The Trading Estate, The back of Nowhere', in
the dark.

It never seems to be that
hard -

No one ever said it was 'hard' but no one could ever say it was easier
than being guided by a few billions $$ worth of space tech.

even when crossing countries.

Yup, we have all 'managed' doing all sorts of things by hand or using
hand tools ... just there are often ways of making life easier now
days and most *enjoy* making use of them.

I figure satnav saves its cost in wasted fuel easily. And again several
times over in wasted time.

And doesn't cost a penny when you already have a decent smartphone.

"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2016 14:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/02/16 12:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2016 12:06, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 09:15:14 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

I only use the phone as a GPS when I have to and it's no use mounted
on the handlebar of a motorbike in the rain or when being operated by
fingers wrapped in leather gloves. It is very reassuring to know I
have a GPS on me at all times though (and I have made use of it many
times and in ways I wouldn't have first predicted).

Indeed, I find I quite often use mine as the real time traffic
information is quite handy. Also the ability to not have to fondle it,
and just say "navigate to xyz" to it is quite nice. (just a bit
annoying
that it does not understand a voice command to navigate to an address
that is in its phonebook, but will navigate to one that it can find on
a
web search.

Now, if you don't actually crawl out from under your stone very often
or aren't someone who likes doing stuff in the moment, 'planning' a
route 3 weeks in advance could be considered the fun bit of any trip
(till the first road closure of course). ;-)

I just checked one list of available POI files, and they claim to have
300,000 different ones now.... TNPs probably going to have a hard time
avoiding all those places just so he can sock it to "the man".


I simply dont bother to even look. I either know the particular point
of
interest (man made) that is driving me to a destination, or I look at a
map for scenery hints and so on.

Google maps is actually quite handy there. Satnavs less so.

You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

"Vir Campestris" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/02/2016 22:11, Blanco wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
b.com...
On 01/02/2016 16:06, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher


Nowadays, I take a photo of the car (with reg plate).

yebbut I keep my camera in the car..

use your phone!


If you have a recent smart phone you can use the GPS to mark the
location too.

Not accurate down to the car. You need the photo too.

Very handy to get to roughly where the car is and start looking at
individual cars tho.

I recall doing that once in an _enormous_ car park in France.

When I got back ours was the only car left!

That's because you use the bath for keeping the coal in.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:30:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 20:42, Chris French wrote:
snip

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

...and does turn by turn navigation on mine as well

As does mine but daughters (later) Garmin Nuvi also describers the
name or designation of the road you are supposed to turn into and has
better 'lane control', handy for use on motorways (when some of the
road signs may not be pertinent to your immediate need to take the
left or right lane).

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I
need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

I'd like to add I think TomTom v Garmin is nearly as bad as Windows V
Linux or Cats V Dogs. I've never liked the TomTom marketing and
everyone I been with who has one seems to be beholden to what *it*
wants to do. One, and older guy got frustrated with his TomTom and
asked me what I'd got and went a bought the same (the Garmin Nuvi).
Much to my surprise, he found the Garmin 'brilliant' (his words) and
gave me the TomTom to 'play with'. I think it's still on the shelf
where I put it. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:36:13 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

T i m wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
T i m wrote

Now, if you don't actually crawl out from under your stone very often
or aren't someone who likes doing stuff in the moment, 'planning' a
route 3 weeks in advance could be considered the fun bit of any trip
(till the first road closure of course). ;-)

Well said sir!

Cheers. There aren't many bits of kit that I would say this about
but if I lost my GPS I'd go out and buy a new one ASAP.

I wouldn't and in fact stopped using mine.

Ok.

I much prefer the phone, because I have that with me all the time,

I generally have my GPS with me when in the car but agree I well
always have my phone with me (assuming I haven't left it at home).

and it does things much better, particularly with live measured
traffic and stuff like street view that can be handy at times and
being so easy to do proper google searches when the GPS itself
doesn't show you what you want POI wise etc and being able to
just tap on an address in the google hit or an email or facebook
'inbox' and have that auto handed to the mapper which then
directs you to that place etc.

And breathe! ;-)

Yes, but, all the above assumes you have 'Data' on your phone and a
reasonable connection?

And is always completely up to date.

See above (or not even functional).

snip

And when out walking for exercise its handy to just go wherever
looks interesting at the time particularly where you haven't been
before and then just ask it for the best route back to the car etc.

Yup, routing back to a know point ('breadcrumb trail') is also a handy
function. A straight line from your current point to the destination
might be via a ravine. ;-)

Same with wandering around a city as a tourist, just wander
around what looks interesting and then ask it to show you
the best public transport to get back to where you want to
end up at the end of the day etc.

Yup, or just take you back to the car.

Leaves farting around with
timetables etc for dead.

Again, 'only' if you have 'Data' on your phone.

snip

Yes I can use a map and do so, but not for route navigation anymore. It
gets opened once I arrive at my destination, to see what is around the
area.

Absolutely. I wouldn't do any real 'off road' stuff by relying
on the GPS alone and find it reasonably interesting getting
an overview from a nice map.

I don't bother with maps at all anymore even tho I still have them.

Much prefer to use google earth etc now.

See above. Often our destination is a campsite in the back of beyond
with no voice coverage, let alone data. There will always be satellite
coverage (even if you have to find a small clearing in the woods
(though less of an issue as the technology has improved)).

snip

However, the biggest plus for the GPS by far is the amount of
rows it saved between me and her when it came to navigating.

Yeah, that's what a mate of mine says too,
by far the best way to avoid arguments.

;-)

snip

With GPS's as cheap, capable and user friendly as they are now
I really don't know why anyone (who ever drives further than Tescos
and back) doesn't have one ... unless they are Luddites that is. ;-)

I do know one who not only doesn't have a gps, doesn't even have
a mobile phone either and does do quite a bit of long distance stuff.
He doesn't use maps either, does it all in his head and by word of mouth.

Yeah, no one is saying you can't get about that way but (ironically)
no way is it as easy to be so self sufficient without. I think they
removed many of the road signs over here during the war to confuse any
invaders. Wouldn't be much point now of course. ;-)

When his car key broke he had to use mine to ring his
wife to get her to come into town with the spare car key.
And I had to dial the number too, he couldn't even do that.

And that's the thing. 'Of course' you can get away with all sorts of
stuff but just sometimes ...

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:02:11 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

NY wrote
snip

My wife has always suffered from car sickness so has found it difficult to
read a map in a car, so her "coping strategy" was to "teach herself"
(how?) to memorise a whole journey - she says that she can "see" the
picture of the map in her memory and can check turnings as she goes
without needing to look at a real map Quite a skill!

Yes, but a decent gps does so much more with routing around traffic
congestion and continuously telling you what time you will arrive etc.

Ah, and that's reminded me of another fantastic feature, the ETA! ;-)

We had to collect my Mum from Southampton the other day (~2 hrs away)
and she was meeting us at the Hovercraft terminal from the IOW. We
texted her as we left with the ETA and as we arrived at the Hoverport
we saw her Hovercraft coming across the Solent. By the time we had
parked up and walked up, she was walking out of the terminal. ;-)

The ETA is very accurate and if you get in some heavy traffic you can
watch it extending and if you are able to 'make good progress' you can
see it falling slightly. At least you can call your destination and
inform them of any major changes from the plan.

Another advantage of a dedicated GPS is the fact that it *isn't* on my
phone, leaving it (and it's battery) free for more important phone
based tasks. ;-)

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:48:00 +1100, "Hilo Black"
wrote:
snip

Real time lane advisory with a satnav works a hell of a lot
better, essentially because you don’t have to plan in advance.

That's something I can often find the most worrying ... trying to
check the signs ahead to see if the lane I'm in gives me the option to
go where I want.

And handles traffic congestion infinitely better than any
navigator can ever do.

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local knowledge
would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've been taken
on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I know all the
little side options etc.

However, overall, 'local knowledge is only generally available
'locally' g or any other location you might have driven regularly at
several times of the day.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:56:58 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
snip

I figure satnav saves its cost in wasted fuel easily. And again several
times over in wasted time.

And doesn't cost a penny when you already have a decent smartphone.

Yes, if you have a physical satnav in your phone (my S2 / S4 have) as
I've yet to see any completely free data connections?

But then I wouldn't want to hold my phone out in the rain ... or
operate it wearing gloves or run it flat when I could really use a
phone ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:30:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 20:42, Chris French wrote:
snip

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

...and does turn by turn navigation on mine as well

As does mine but daughters (later) Garmin Nuvi also describers the
name or designation of the road you are supposed to turn into and has
better 'lane control', handy for use on motorways (when some of the
road signs may not be pertinent to your immediate need to take the
left or right lane).

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I
need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

I'd like to add I think TomTom v Garmin is nearly as bad as Windows V
Linux or Cats V Dogs. I've never liked the TomTom marketing and
everyone I been with who has one seems to be beholden to what *it*
wants to do. One, and older guy got frustrated with his TomTom and
asked me what I'd got and went a bought the same (the Garmin Nuvi).
Much to my surprise, he found the Garmin 'brilliant' (his words) and
gave me the TomTom to 'play with'. I think it's still on the shelf
where I put it. ;-(

I didn't get frustrated with my TomTom. The only real quirk with it
was that with roads outside the town proper, you have to use the
name of the area the road is in as a pseudo town to find it. And even
TomTom support didn't know that, I found that out using google.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
T i m wrote

Now, if you don't actually crawl out from under your stone very often
or aren't someone who likes doing stuff in the moment, 'planning' a
route 3 weeks in advance could be considered the fun bit of any trip
(till the first road closure of course). ;-)

Well said sir!

Cheers. There aren't many bits of kit that I would say this about
but if I lost my GPS I'd go out and buy a new one ASAP.

I wouldn't and in fact stopped using mine.

Ok.

I much prefer the phone, because I have that with me all the time,

I generally have my GPS with me when in the car

I didn't, but that was because I normally charged it using the mains
charger in the house, and put the garage/yard sales in it as an itinerary
when it was in the house the night before the garage/yard sale run.

And set up the itinerary using google maps on the PC and then
manually moved that to the GPS. I was going to automate that
but changed to the smartphone before I got around to doing that.

I don't put the whole lot in the phone anymore, just the ones
that I either can't completely remember where the street is
or which have a street number so it can direct me to the
exact garage/yard and I put them into google maps while
setting up for the garage/yard sale run very early before
the run starts. I have my own facebook group which has
all the garage/yard sales listed and ideally you should be
able to just tap on the address in there and have that
handed to the mapper, but currently facebook doesn't
allow that. Which reminds me, I must remember to suggest
that to facebook, they keep asking for suggestions and keep
enhancing their smartphone app based on suggestions.

but agree I well always have my phone
with me (assuming I haven't left it at home).

Yeah, I hardly ever forget to take it with me now.

and it does things much better, particularly with live measured
traffic and stuff like street view that can be handy at times and
being so easy to do proper google searches when the GPS itself
doesn't show you what you want POI wise etc and being able to
just tap on an address in the google hit or an email or facebook
'inbox' and have that auto handed to the mapper which then
directs you to that place etc.

And breathe! ;-)

Too radical by far |-)

Yes, but, all the above assumes you have 'Data'
on your phone and a reasonable connection?

No, there are plenty of offline mappers and
google maps can be used like that if you want to.

And it only costs peanuts if you don't bother.
I pay 7.5c/MB for data and pay by the KB so
I normally get a nav for about 1-2c for the data.

And is always completely up to date.

See above (or not even functional).

Doesn't apply with offline maps. google maps
reminds you to update them for free when on wifi.

And when out walking for exercise its handy to just go wherever
looks interesting at the time particularly where you haven't been
before and then just ask it for the best route back to the car etc.

Yup, routing back to a know point ('breadcrumb trail')
is also a handy function.

I prefer not to come back the same way I went
out, prefer to come back on a different route
so I move thru somewhere different instead.

A straight line from your current point to
the destination might be via a ravine. ;-)

Easy to check using goggle earth etc and for where
its dense scrub that is a nuisance to get thru and
rivers that are a nuisance to get across.

Same with wandering around a city as a tourist, just
wander around what looks interesting and then ask
it to show you the best public transport to get back to
where you want to end up at the end of the day etc.

Yup, or just take you back to the car.

Yeah, tho many big citys are a complete pain in the
arse cars wise now so its often better to park well
out of the city and use public transport within it
or just leave the car where you are staying and
use public transport.

Because I'm an old fart, our system allows me to
go anywhere I like on any mode of public transport
for just $2.50 a day and if the trip only costs $1, that
is all I get charged too. All done with the electronic
card everyone uses that you tap on and tap off with
at each stop where you get on or off.

Leaves farting around with timetables etc for dead.

Again, 'only' if you have 'Data' on your phone.

But only costs peanuts for that. I did the entire day
that I had to waste in Sydney for about $2 and that
included all the navs, deciding on a backpackers,
booking it and paying for it and all the public
transport stuff as well.

Yes I can use a map and do so, but not for route navigation anymore. It
gets opened once I arrive at my destination, to see what is around the
area.

Absolutely. I wouldn't do any real 'off road' stuff by relying
on the GPS alone and find it reasonably interesting getting
an overview from a nice map.

I don't bother with maps at all anymore even tho I still have them.

Much prefer to use google earth etc now.

See above.

Costs a lot less than the maps and there is plenty of free wifi too.

Often our destination is a campsite in the back of
beyond with no voice coverage, let alone data.

Trivially fixable by downloading to the phone before you leave.

There will always be satellite coverage (even if you
have to find a small clearing in the woods (though
less of an issue as the technology has improved)).

Yeah, never had to do that with the iphone.

However, the biggest plus for the GPS by far is the amount of
rows it saved between me and her when it came to navigating.

Yeah, that's what a mate of mine says too,
by far the best way to avoid arguments.

;-)

With GPS's as cheap, capable and user friendly as they are now
I really don't know why anyone (who ever drives further than Tescos
and back) doesn't have one ... unless they are Luddites that is. ;-)

I do know one who not only doesn't have a gps, doesn't even have
a mobile phone either and does do quite a bit of long distance stuff.
He doesn't use maps either, does it all in his head and by word of mouth.

Yeah, no one is saying you can't get about that way but (ironically)
no way is it as easy to be so self sufficient without. I think they
removed many of the road signs over here during the war to
confuse any invaders. Wouldn't be much point now of course. ;-)

They can and do stop those unspeakable
invaders from using the gps satellites now.

When his car key broke he had to use mine to ring his
wife to get her to come into town with the spare car key.
And I had to dial the number too, he couldn't even do that.

And that's the thing. 'Of course' you can get
away with all sorts of stuff but just sometimes ...

Yeah, it would have been a hell of a lot less easy
if he had been out of town when the key broke,
although he would certainly have been able to
get someone to stop and use their phone.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote

My wife has always suffered from car sickness so has found it difficult
to read a map in a car, so her "coping strategy" was to "teach herself"
(how?) to memorise a whole journey - she says that she can "see" the
picture of the map in her memory and can check turnings as she goes
without needing to look at a real map Quite a skill!

Yes, but a decent gps does so much more with routing around traffic
congestion and continuously telling you what time you will arrive etc.

Ah, and that's reminded me of another fantastic feature, the ETA! ;-)

Yeah, very interesting using that in the long run into Sydney running
very late to catch the train home. google maps on mine had it spot
on with significant unusual traffic congestion that early morning.
The other phone in the car was a Nokia Lumia and its included
satnav which doesn't appear to have a proper name didn't really
allow for the traffic congestion at all and was anything up to 20
mins out on its prediction.

We had to collect my Mum from Southampton the other day (~2 hrs away)
and she was meeting us at the Hovercraft terminal from the IOW. We
texted her as we left with the ETA and as we arrived at the Hoverport
we saw her Hovercraft coming across the Solent. By the time we had
parked up and walked up, she was walking out of the terminal. ;-)

The ETA is very accurate and if you get in some heavy traffic you can
watch it extending and if you are able to 'make good progress' you
can see it falling slightly. At least you can call your destination and
inform them of any major changes from the plan.

And kept telling me that we were still on the best route.

Another advantage of a dedicated GPS is the fact that
it *isn't* on my phone, leaving it (and it's battery) free
for more important phone based tasks. ;-)

That's better fixed by powering it in the car
and having an external battery pack as well.

The only real advantage with a separate GPS is
that if one dies you can still use the other one
and even that is better done with two phones
which most have without doing anything unless
you are travelling alone.

T i m wrote
Hilo Black wrote

Real time lane advisory with a satnav works a hell of a lot
better, essentially because you don't have to plan in advance.

That's something I can often find the most worrying ...
trying to check the signs ahead to see if the lane I'm
in gives me the option to go where I want.

Yeah. In the desperately late run into Sydney, in the last
stretch into Sydney itself which is often in tunnels, and
all you can do is vary the lane you are in, ****ing great
signs painted on the road saying ED ONLY in some
lanes. Completely useless if you don't know what ED
means. Turns out that it meant Eastern Distributor
and that was what I needed, but that was a pure fluke.

And handles traffic congestion infinitely
better than any navigator can ever do.

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local
knowledge would probably win over any GPS congestion
displays. I've been taken on routes by the GPS I wouldn't
typically take because I know all the little side options etc.

Dunno. I have noticed that google maps does mostly
route you that way now, presumably because it is
actually measuring transit times using the mobile
phone bases and can work that out for itself.

That's how it knows when traffic congestion is
worse that normal, by actually measuring transit
times in real time using the mobile phone bases.

However, overall, 'local knowledge is only generally
available 'locally' g or any other location you might
have driven regularly at several times of the day.

See above.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote

I figure satnav saves its cost in wasted fuel easily.
And again several times over in wasted time.

And doesn't cost a penny when you already have a decent smartphone.

Yes, if you have a physical satnav in your phone (my S2 / S4
have) as I've yet to see any completely free data connections?

There is plenty of free wifi around now.

And with offline maps you don't need any data
connection except to update the offline map.

But then I wouldn't want to hold my phone out in the rain ...

Works fine in a waterproof case.

or operate it wearing gloves

You can in fact get gloves that work fine.

or run it flat when I could really use a phone ... ;-(

Much better fixed with an external battery.

On 02/02/2016 23:07, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:48:00 +1100, "Hilo Black"

Wodney alert!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.



--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 03/02/2016 00:08, Rod Speed wrote:


I didn't get frustrated with my TomTom. The only real quirk with it
was that with roads outside the town proper, you have to use the
name of the area the road is in as a pseudo town to find it. And even
TomTom support didn't know that, I found that out using google.


Update the tomtom then because that's not how the current ones work.

On 02/02/2016 23:07, T i m wrote:

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local knowledge
would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've been taken
on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I know all the
little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.
The system actually knows how long its taking to get down a road while
the local knowledge only knows its usually a five minute delay.
The tomtom will take you down the quickest route it can find and
includes the back streets.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are
trackers!!

Cheers, T i m

On 02/02/2016 22:38, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:30:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 20:42, Chris French wrote:
snip

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

...and does turn by turn navigation on mine as well

As does mine but daughters (later) Garmin Nuvi also describers the
name or designation of the road you are supposed to turn into and has
better 'lane control', handy for use on motorways (when some of the
road signs may not be pertinent to your immediate need to take the
left or right lane).

google speaks the names of roads as well, as do later versions of Tomtom
I believe...

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I

Indeed, I would much prefer that to the radio announcements that say
things like "M25 northbound" etc!

need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

I'd like to add I think TomTom v Garmin is nearly as bad as Windows V
Linux or Cats V Dogs. I've never liked the TomTom marketing and
everyone I been with who has one seems to be beholden to what *it*
wants to do. One, and older guy got frustrated with his TomTom and
asked me what I'd got and went a bought the same (the Garmin Nuvi).
Much to my surprise, he found the Garmin 'brilliant' (his words) and
gave me the TomTom to 'play with'. I think it's still on the shelf
where I put it. ;-(

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection. On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:36:51 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

I generally have my GPS with me when in the car

I didn't, but that was because I normally charged it using the mains
charger in the house,

Not from the car when in the car (as well possibly)?

and put the garage/yard sales in it as an itinerary
when it was in the house the night before the garage/yard sale run.

Makes sense.

And set up the itinerary using google maps on the PC and then
manually moved that to the GPS.

I used to do that regularly using Garmins Mapsource (on Windows, no
Linux support) before my GPS's had postcode support. I still do so now
when planning an actual trip but the waypoints can often get unused if
we change our plans en-route.

I was going to automate that
but changed to the smartphone before I got around to doing that.

Ok.

I don't put the whole lot in the phone anymore, just the ones
that I either can't completely remember where the street is
or which have a street number so it can direct me to the
exact garage/yard and I put them into google maps while
setting up for the garage/yard sale run very early before
the run starts. I have my own facebook group which has
all the garage/yard sales listed and ideally you should be
able to just tap on the address in there and have that
handed to the mapper, but currently facebook doesn't
allow that. Which reminds me, I must remember to suggest
that to facebook, they keep asking for suggestions and keep
enhancing their smartphone app based on suggestions.

Go for it. ;-)

but agree I well always have my phone
with me (assuming I haven't left it at home).

Yeah, I hardly ever forget to take it with me now.

I do. ;-(

and it does things much better, particularly with live measured
traffic and stuff like street view that can be handy at times and
being so easy to do proper google searches when the GPS itself
doesn't show you what you want POI wise etc and being able to
just tap on an address in the google hit or an email or facebook
'inbox' and have that auto handed to the mapper which then
directs you to that place etc.

And breathe! ;-)

Too radical by far |-)

Yes, but, all the above assumes you have 'Data'
on your phone and a reasonable connection?

No, there are plenty of offline mappers and
google maps can be used like that if you want to.

Yes, so you are using it like a straight GPS (no mobile Data) at that
point? Unless you are just using it like a dumb paper map?

And it only costs peanuts if you don't bother.
I pay 7.5c/MB for data and pay by the KB so
I normally get a nav for about 1-2c for the data.

But you do therefore have to have an active connection (that you agree
isn't actually 'free') and that isn't all the time (over here anyway).

And is always completely up to date.

See above (or not even functional).

Doesn't apply with offline maps. google maps
reminds you to update them for free when on wifi.

Ok. I have Navmii on my SGS4 and I think that tells me when there are
updated maps available.

And when out walking for exercise its handy to just go wherever
looks interesting at the time particularly where you haven't been
before and then just ask it for the best route back to the car etc.

Yup, routing back to a know point ('breadcrumb trail')
is also a handy function.

I prefer not to come back the same way I went
out, prefer to come back on a different route
so I move thru somewhere different instead.

Yes, and that makes sense when you are happy to carry on your 'trip'
and are 100% confident you can get back to the start / car a different
way. However, if it's getting dark and you aren't sure, returning the
way you came will always be safer (or at least more predictable).

A straight line from your current point to
the destination might be via a ravine. ;-)

Easy to check using goggle earth etc and for where
its dense scrub that is a nuisance to get thru and
rivers that are a nuisance to get across.

Again, assuming you have a data connection in the middle of that
remote scrub land or a GPS preloaded with detailed maps of that area.

Same with wandering around a city as a tourist, just
wander around what looks interesting and then ask
it to show you the best public transport to get back to
where you want to end up at the end of the day etc.

Yup, or just take you back to the car.

Yeah, tho many big citys are a complete pain in the
arse cars wise now so its often better to park well
out of the city and use public transport within it
or just leave the car where you are staying and
use public transport.

Yup.

Because I'm an old fart, our system allows me to
go anywhere I like on any mode of public transport
for just $2.50 a day and if the trip only costs $1, that
is all I get charged too. All done with the electronic
card everyone uses that you tap on and tap off with
at each stop where you get on or off.

We have similar systems. My (85 yr old) Mum got on the wrong bus
yesterday and did a bit of a loop tour of the area but it was all free
for her. ;-)

Leaves farting around with timetables etc for dead.

Again, 'only' if you have 'Data' on your phone.

But only costs peanuts for that.

Possibly. Over here it is most commonly linked to having a contract
and so will cost all the time if you are using it or not. You can get
add-ons to go with PAYG voice but it's all starting to get messy
complicated with an always on, 100% free GPS.

I did the entire day
that I had to waste in Sydney for about $2 and that
included all the navs, deciding on a backpackers,
booking it and paying for it and all the public
transport stuff as well.

Sweet.

Yes I can use a map and do so, but not for route navigation anymore. It
gets opened once I arrive at my destination, to see what is around the
area.

Absolutely. I wouldn't do any real 'off road' stuff by relying
on the GPS alone and find it reasonably interesting getting
an overview from a nice map.

I don't bother with maps at all anymore even tho I still have them.

Much prefer to use google earth etc now.

See above.

Costs a lot less than the maps and there is plenty of free wifi too.

Well, I rarely update the maps as unless you get a 'free updates for
life' deal (that many come with these days) it's often cheaper to buy
a new GPS with the latest maps on (and they often give you one years
updates for free etc). WiFi may not be available in the middle of a
forest. ;-)

Often our destination is a campsite in the back of
beyond with no voice coverage, let alone data.

Trivially fixable by downloading to the phone before you leave.

And using the phones built-in GPS hardware (so it's *just* a GPS at
that point).

There will always be satellite coverage (even if you
have to find a small clearing in the woods (though
less of an issue as the technology has improved)).

Yeah, never had to do that with the iphone.

I have with the earliest devices. Not so much these days.

snip

Yeah, no one is saying you can't get about that way but (ironically)
no way is it as easy to be so self sufficient without. I think they
removed many of the road signs over here during the war to
confuse any invaders. Wouldn't be much point now of course. ;-)

They can and do stop those unspeakable
invaders from using the gps satellites now.

Quite.

When his car key broke he had to use mine to ring his
wife to get her to come into town with the spare car key.
And I had to dial the number too, he couldn't even do that.

And that's the thing. 'Of course' you can get
away with all sorts of stuff but just sometimes ...

Yeah, it would have been a hell of a lot less easy
if he had been out of town when the key broke,
although he would certainly have been able to
get someone to stop and use their phone.

So they 'get by' by poncing off the efforts and expenditure of others.
;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:44:35 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Another advantage of a dedicated GPS is the fact that
it *isn't* on my phone, leaving it (and it's battery) free
for more important phone based tasks. ;-)

That's better fixed by powering it in the car
and having an external battery pack as well.

The only real advantage with a separate GPS is
that if one dies you can still use the other one
and even that is better done with two phones
which most have without doing anything unless
you are travelling alone.

Unless you try to operate your touch screen phone GPS with gloves on
whilst it's clamped to the handlebars of your motorbike in the pouring
rain. ;-(

Nope, I'll (mostly) stick with a GPS for routing and a phone for
phoning thanks. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:26:50 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 23:07, T i m wrote:

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local knowledge
would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've been taken
on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I know all the
little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.

OK.

The system actually knows how long its taking to get down a road while
the local knowledge only knows its usually a five minute delay.

Assuming the feedback on the traffic data is right up to date you
mean?

The tomtom will take you down the quickest route it can find and
includes the back streets.

As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Overall though and given even those areas I do know reasonably well,
the GPS gets me places easily and efficiently in a way I couldn't do
on my own or even with my Mrs navigating.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:55:43 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote

I figure satnav saves its cost in wasted fuel easily.
And again several times over in wasted time.

And doesn't cost a penny when you already have a decent smartphone.

Yes, if you have a physical satnav in your phone (my S2 / S4
have) as I've yet to see any completely free data connections?

There is plenty of free wifi around now.

Not in the woods and trails near us there aren't. ;-)

And with offline maps you don't need any data
connection except to update the offline map.

So you are using the onboard GPS at that point? So it's a GPS, not a
network data driven thing?

But then I wouldn't want to hold my phone out in the rain ...

Works fine in a waterproof case.

or operate it wearing gloves

You can in fact get gloves that work fine.

Work fine against tarmac at 70 mph *and* work small touchscreen
easily? Yes, I know you can get 'gloves' that allow you to use
touchscreens but they are still not as easy to use wearing gloves,
especially when on the move (say on a cycle on a trail). Trust me,
I've tried it all. ;-)

or run it flat when I could really use a phone ... ;-(

Much better fixed with an external battery.

Much better to carry something that I can use in the rain without any
extra cases (that might restrict access or visibility of the GPS) and
with my gloves and have a phone that can be used just as a phone and
not have to carry *just* a battery that is only a battery (that I also
have btw and carry for just the phone as a phone!).

But I don't expect you to understand the use of a GPS on a motorbike
in the cold and rain, you live in Australia. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 11:00:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are
trackers!!

Cheers, T i m

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phone+tracking


NT

On 03/02/16 11:52, wrote:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 11:00:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are
trackers!!

Cheers, T i m


Please tell him he doesn't have a sense of humour.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phone+tracking


NT



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 22:38, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:30:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 20:42, Chris French wrote:
snip

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

...and does turn by turn navigation on mine as well

As does mine but daughters (later) Garmin Nuvi also describers the
name or designation of the road you are supposed to turn into and has
better 'lane control', handy for use on motorways (when some of the
road signs may not be pertinent to your immediate need to take the
left or right lane).

google speaks the names of roads as well, as do later versions of Tomtom
I believe...

Makes sense. Yes., I know Google maps do that because we thought it
was a bit quiet because we hadn't actually tapped 'Go'. Then she
wouldn't shutup (as it was all local stuff). ;-)

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I

Indeed, I would much prefer that to the radio announcements that say
things like "M25 northbound" etc!

Yup, ridiculous. Thinking on though I wondered how many people don't
have the mental map of the country in their heads and who may not even
realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

I'd like to add I think TomTom v Garmin is nearly as bad as Windows V
Linux or Cats V Dogs. I've never liked the TomTom marketing and
everyone I been with who has one seems to be beholden to what *it*
wants to do. One, and older guy got frustrated with his TomTom and
asked me what I'd got and went a bought the same (the Garmin Nuvi).
Much to my surprise, he found the Garmin 'brilliant' (his words) and
gave me the TomTom to 'play with'. I think it's still on the shelf
where I put it. ;-(

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

Maybe TomTom attracts the less technical user (their marketing / TV
ads seem to support that) and so maybe their 'typical' users doesn't
investigate the routing settings or somesuch?

I love my old Garmin GPS V as it has a fully programmable display. Say
it can display 100 different fields (like altitude, dusk / dawn, ETA,
current speed, max speed etc) and you can choose what combination you
want on each display screen.

As these units have become more common / cheaper they have also been
simplified (from my POV) to be more 'user friendly' and therefore some
of the things I might find useful (like current lat / long) hidden, if
available at all. ;-(

I guess that's also why I generally / still refer to such things
(especially the portable jobbies) as 'GPS units', rather than 'Sat
Nav' as my early ones didn't have any autorouting type navigation,
just a generic 'Go that way' pointer. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] It used to amaze me how many people simply don't update anything
.... from GPS maps, system firmware (inc PC BIOSs) or their PC OS's
(when it's often the first thing I do when given some stuff to play
with).

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 03:52:49 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 11:00:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are
trackers!!


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phone+tracking

So, that's phone tracking then, nothing to do with GPS units per-se?

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.
I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 12:24:29 UTC, T i m wrote:

realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

I get that somtimes it's due to mild dyslexia I think.
But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.
And thens theres' what postion you're turning it from.
If it's under a desk and you're leaning over and upside down it gets tricky.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 05:34:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 12:24:29 UTC, T i m wrote:

realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

I get that somtimes it's due to mild dyslexia I think.

Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else. Like if you were describing a kitchen
layout then actually supplied it ... they would only realise what it
was going to look like when it was finished? I (most of us?), given a
suitable description to the point where they might even question
something before work starts (like 'won't that then overlap the window
or foul the boiler' etc) or question when finished how it wasn't as
they thought they understood it would be.

But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so 'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

And thens theres' what postion you're turning it from.

That rarely bothers me ... same with running RC models where the left
/ right are reversed when the model is coming towards you. I must
always consider such things from the perspective of being at the
optimum position to it (so in a RC buggy that would be behind / inside
it). ;-)

If it's under a desk and you're leaning over and upside down it gets tricky.

I've never considered it so (I never have to think about it for a
second etc) so it must just be one of those things that you can either
do instinctively or not. Like I never had any issues differentiating
my left and right or port and starboard etc. 'Right' is just that way
(to the right) and I can't see (but accept it is the case of course)
why everyone else can't just to so equally?

Daughter is like me in that respect but the Mrs isn't.

I wonder if that is also linked to a 'sense of direction'? We know
birds and some other creatures can use the earths magnetic fields to
give them a 'bearing' so I wonder if some people can also tap into
that, even if only subconsciously?

If we are visiting a new to us town, walk round and round and end up
in a cafe, when we leave to go back to the car I'll tend to start off
in the right direction whereas the Mrs will go in what appears to be a
completely arbitrary direction (possibly linked to the direction we
came in from, if we are lucky). ;-)

But didn't they print an upside down map of England that was supposed
to be for 'women'?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upside-Down-.../dp/0952930404

On my GPS's I always set them to 'North up' because that way I am
seeing it as I would if looking at a map and so can retain *my*
bearings. If I come across some new road or traffic layout that isn't
covered on the GPS I can still navigate manually because I was aware
what direction I was heading in the first place. ;-)

The thing that still gets me is when joining the likes of the M25 are
the choices on the signs have no bearing on my destination. Now I know
it can't be like a tube map where it tells you on each direction
choice, all the stops in order but an abbreviated version might be
better than two places I'm not interested in or even directly on the
M25!

I think daughters later Garmin GPS has better lane guidance and it
announces the name of the road you are turning into (that can be quite
reassuring) so I might try hers on the next trip and may even treat
myself to one (or it's current replacement). That way I get some
better features and the latest maps. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

Yes, me too, but only when on major routes and that's not necessarily
the same thing as being informed about a delay that has only been
there for 30 seconds or five minutes, specifically if not on a
monitored route or it not impacting a monitored route?

The only way I could see that sort of thing working would be if the
GPS was able to compare your actual speed with the theoretical and
reported_by_others_recently speed for that route and upload that
discrepancy to some network and then update all the other units (like
you can with some speed camera warning devices).

I mean, if a particular bit of 30 mph road was only / ever 15 mph
because a restriction made it half duplex, it's quite possible that
information could be collated by many peoples track logs but that
wouldn't be so likely to predict a broken down lorry making it a
little bit worse?

Unless it can (and I'm not saying it can't etc) ... if it was linked
into a real live traffic network using two way data from many GPS
units (or phones)? shrug

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 14:23:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 05:34:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 12:24:29 UTC, T i m wrote:

realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

I get that somtimes it's due to mild dyslexia I think.

Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

There was an article about a women who couldn;t recognise her two kids faces (no the kids weren't two faced)


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...e-own-children



But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so.

I was thinking of those on ovens and gas rings and how attaching nuts to those meant they had to go on the other way around.

'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

Did you also check with a digital watch :-)


And thens theres' what postion you're turning it from.

That rarely bothers me ... same with running RC models where the left
/ right are reversed when the model is coming towards you. I must
always consider such things from the perspective of being at the
optimum position to it (so in a RC buggy that would be behind / inside
it). ;-)

yes you can get the hane of it, I was trying to solder using a microscope
as you move the tip up under the scope it moves down so everything is reversed except up and down as in hieght.


If it's under a desk and you're leaning over and upside down it gets tricky.

I've never considered it so (I never have to think about it for a
second etc) so it must just be one of those things that you can either
do instinctively or not.

I think that's it, soem can draw what they see others like me it' sjust a mess of lines maybe we can be trained I'm not sure.


Like I never had any issues differentiating
my left and right or port and starboard etc. 'Right' is just that way
(to the right) and I can't see (but accept it is the case of course)
why everyone else can't just to so equally?

Left and right is a strange concept, try imagingign explaing it to an alien on another planet how would you describe what left and right were same as up and down. Even Rod in Aus knows what up is but if we were both to point to up we'd bother be pointing pretty much in the opposite directions.



I wonder if that is also linked to a 'sense of direction'? We know
birds and some other creatures can use the earths magnetic fields to
give them a 'bearing' so I wonder if some people can also tap into
that, even if only subconsciously?

yes there's a tribe in Austrailian that doesn;t use the mthods other humans do for directions. Star trek use a similar system of co-ordinates.
Those AUSies also say that their future is behind them and teh past in front.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 07:04:12 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

There was an article about a women who couldn;t recognise her two kids faces (no the kids weren't two faced)


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...e-own-children

Oooerr! Now I'd have to admit, as it mentions in the article that
like others I sometimes have difficulty recognising people of a
different race (the old stereotype of 'they all look the same to me
....') but only when they do share a close 'look'.


But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so.

I was thinking of those on ovens and gas rings and how attaching nuts to those meant they had to go on the other way around.

Ah, yes, sorry, but then I think that's done for a reason (like wheel
hub nuts) and so most people would be forgiven for not getting them
right first go (although they often have small cuts in the corners to
give us a clue). ;-)

'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

Did you also check with a digital watch :-)

;-)


And thens theres' what postion you're turning it from.

That rarely bothers me ... same with running RC models where the left
/ right are reversed when the model is coming towards you. I must
always consider such things from the perspective of being at the
optimum position to it (so in a RC buggy that would be behind / inside
it). ;-)

yes you can get the hane of it, I was trying to solder using a microscope
as you move the tip up under the scope it moves down so everything is reversed except up and down as in hieght.

Was that a straight optical scope Dave? I've done quite a bit of fine
soldering under a camera microscope and of course you can turn the
camera round to make it linear. ;-)


If it's under a desk and you're leaning over and upside down it gets tricky.

I've never considered it so (I never have to think about it for a
second etc) so it must just be one of those things that you can either
do instinctively or not.

I think that's it, soem can draw what they see others like me it' sjust a mess of lines maybe we can be trained I'm not sure.

Whilst I'm sure there is a mix of nature and nurture I think most can
generally improve their skills with training and practice (or training
OR practice as people can learn in different ways).


Like I never had any issues differentiating
my left and right or port and starboard etc. 'Right' is just that way
(to the right) and I can't see (but accept it is the case of course)
why everyone else can't just to so equally?

Left and right is a strange concept, try imagingign explaing it to an alien on another planet how would you describe what left and right were same as up and down.

Hmm, that's the thing, I can't imagine *not* being able to explain it
to an alien (even). Right is just the label to that side / direction,
just as is forward or up. How come even those who can't remember their
left from right, don't generally have issues with the other
dimensions?

Even Rod in Aus knows what up is

Are you sure about that? weg

but if we were both to point to up we'd bother be pointing pretty much in the opposite directions.

Not if observed by someone in front of us but yes if you are talking
about it absolutely. However, if you asked them both to point towards
something that was generic to the world, say 'the North', they would
(should) both point in the same direction. Good point though. ;-)



I wonder if that is also linked to a 'sense of direction'? We know
birds and some other creatures can use the earths magnetic fields to
give them a 'bearing' so I wonder if some people can also tap into
that, even if only subconsciously?

yes there's a tribe in Austrailian that doesn;t use the mthods other humans do for directions. Star trek use a similar system of co-ordinates.

Oh?

Those AUSies also say that their future is behind them and teh past in front.

But they are a strange lot. ;-)

if you think about it it makes sense.
You can not see yuor future so it must be behind, and as for teh past well we know(can see) our past as it's in front. Seems logical if you think about it.

Well, yes, I guess, but that's only because you / they are using the
term 'see' literally? However, it's nothing to do with sight but time
so they both work (correctly) even with your eyes shut. ;-)



If we are visiting a new to us town, walk round and round and end up
in a cafe, when we leave to go back to the car I'll tend to start off
in the right direction whereas the Mrs will go in what appears to be a
completely arbitrary direction (possibly linked to the direction we
came in from, if we are lucky). ;-)

I can be liek that and my mum when going into a shop and coming out never could work out which direction along the street she was going,

It can be funny sometimes. ;-)

she also could visual cutting a round cake into 3, she just couldn't get the Y shape anywhere near correct propotionally,

Well to be fair, I think most people but have to think about that for
a second and maybe use a little trial and error prior cutting.

wasn't bad with cutting it in 4 though.

Ah, the advantages of symmetry. ;-)


But didn't they print an upside down map of England that was supposed
to be for 'women'?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upside-Down-.../dp/0952930404

intresting not sure hwo useful it is or why.

Well, if some people are traveling North to South they would turn the
map over but then all the place names are upside down. That map fixes
that. Same with people who have 'Track Up' on their GPSD's. It's as if
they are just driving forward all the time with no consideration for
the compass.


On my GPS's I always set them to 'North up' because that way I am
seeing it as I would if looking at a map and so can retain *my*
bearings.

that's the defualt I guess not sure hwo those in the southern hem. do it.

I'm guessing still 'North up' as that's the way the maps are still
printed their way.


If I come across some new road or traffic layout that isn't
covered on the GPS I can still navigate manually because I was aware
what direction I was heading in the first place. ;-)

Apparently women are better at remebring such things from their POV rather than from a map POV. soemthing to do with them having a slightly wider field of view than men.

Ok.


The thing that still gets me is when joining the likes of the M25 are
the choices on the signs have no bearing on my destination. Now I know
it can't be like a tube map where it tells you on each direction
choice, all the stops in order but an abbreviated version might be
better than two places I'm not interested in or even directly on the
M25!

I think daughters later Garmin GPS has better lane guidance and it
announces the name of the road you are turning into (that can be quite
reassuring) so I might try hers on the next trip and may even treat
myself to one (or it's current replacement). That way I get some
better features and the latest maps. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Not drivign means I don;t have any of these devices not even an iPhone
so dont; really comment on how useful they are to me.

Ok, if you don't need to make journey direction decisions then they
may not be of much use to you at all.

I can still use a A-Z map

Ok, then if you use that then a GPS might be of use. So, say you used
public transport and pop out of the underground somewhere in London
and need to find a building down a myriad of backstreets easily and
quickly. With an A to Z you either have to look in the index, find
where you are and where you want to go, joint the two together (hoping
they are on the same page) and 'steer' yourself with the AtoZ as you
go.

With a GPS you would only need to enter your destination (Postcode and
number or address or find it in the Points Of Interest listings (if it
was a Hospital etc). and say 'Route'. You don't have to know where you
are and if you make a wrong turn along the way it sorts itself out
again. ;-)

although some things are obviously out of date.
especailly the list of strip pubs in the local area listed at the back. :-)

Hehe, I'm not sure any GPS has that sort of specialised listing by
default. However, many companies now supply POI for their shops or
golf courses though.

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/2016 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

Tomtoms traffic is a two way process, the sat nav tells tomtom how fast
you are going so if another tomtom user experiences a delay they can
inform others. I assume its more than one as it coud cause problems if
you just decided to stop and make a call or similar.


I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

Yes, me too, but only when on major routes and that's not necessarily
the same thing as being informed about a delay that has only been
there for 30 seconds or five minutes, specifically if not on a
monitored route or it not impacting a monitored route?

The only way I could see that sort of thing working would be if the
GPS was able to compare your actual speed with the theoretical and
reported_by_others_recently speed for that route and upload that
discrepancy to some network and then update all the other units (like
you can with some speed camera warning devices).

I mean, if a particular bit of 30 mph road was only / ever 15 mph
because a restriction made it half duplex, it's quite possible that
information could be collated by many peoples track logs but that
wouldn't be so likely to predict a broken down lorry making it a
little bit worse?

Unless it can (and I'm not saying it can't etc) ... if it was linked
into a real live traffic network using two way data from many GPS
units (or phones)? shrug


Yes, see above.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:09:00 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

Tomtoms traffic is a two way process, the sat nav tells tomtom how fast
you are going

To clarify:

The TomTom GPS unit(?) knows how fast it is going by triangulation and
timing of the satellite signals. Or did you add that the GPS unit
actually transmits it's speed and location up to somewhere ('TomTom
HQ') somehow? Is that what / all you have said so far or have I
missed something?

so if another tomtom user experiences a delay they can
inform others.

How?

I assume its more than one as it coud cause problems if
you just decided to stop and make a call or similar.

Quite.


I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

Yes, me too, but only when on major routes and that's not necessarily
the same thing as being informed about a delay that has only been
there for 30 seconds or five minutes, specifically if not on a
monitored route or it not impacting a monitored route?

The only way I could see that sort of thing working would be if the
GPS was able to compare your actual speed with the theoretical and
reported_by_others_recently speed for that route and upload that
discrepancy to some network and then update all the other units (like
you can with some speed camera warning devices).

I mean, if a particular bit of 30 mph road was only / ever 15 mph
because a restriction made it half duplex, it's quite possible that
information could be collated by many peoples track logs but that
wouldn't be so likely to predict a broken down lorry making it a
little bit worse?

Unless it can (and I'm not saying it can't etc) ... if it was linked
into a real live traffic network using two way data from many GPS
units (or phones)? shrug


Yes, see above.

I'd need it explaining further before seeing above would help. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

While I can get *some* idea from a description, a diagram or artist's
impression photo/drawing would always be a better way of understanding. And
a 3D mockup that I could actually use would be an even better way of
checking for problems.

Take this example: My wife and I went to look round a show house for a
development of new houses. The kitchen sink was unusual in that it did not
face an outside window; instead it was on a low internal wall above which
there was an archway into the living room. Unusual, but nothing inherently
wrong. Except... the mixer tap head was able to swivel through 360 degrees
(without a restraining interlock to keep its jet within the bounds of the
sink and draining board). In fact if it was rotated through 180 degrees, it
directed its jet to the far side of the archway onto the living room carpet!
Now imagine what "fun" a five-year-old could have when mummy and daddy
weren't looking...

Someone hadn't thought that on through, had they?


Like if you were describing a kitchen
layout then actually supplied it ... they would only realise what it
was going to look like when it was finished? I (most of us?), given a
suitable description to the point where they might even question
something before work starts (like 'won't that then overlap the window
or foul the boiler' etc) or question when finished how it wasn't as
they thought they understood it would be.

But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so 'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

That's unusual. Normal (British) convention is anticlockwise to unscrew a
thread towards you so as to open the tap, and clockwise to screw it away
from you and close it. Are the taps a matching pair or could one have been
replaced by a newer one which happened to use the opposite convention?

That's assuming that they are on separate parallel axes - as if they were
two separate taps which happen to feed a common output. If they are opposite
each other on a common axis, on either side of the head, then I can see
sense in making them turn in opposite directions so you move the side-lobe
from the vertical off position through 1/4 turn to the on position, so both
lobes face towards you, whereas if they rotated in opposite senses the lobe
of would be towards you and the other would be away from you.


Then there's the convention for light switches: in the UK you press the
lower half of a rocker switch or move the lobe to the downward position to
turn a switch on, whereas in the US it's the opposite way round.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
If you don't have a smart phone, a tablet, or a surface and you own a
car, and you can read a map, its amazing what you don't need.

Well quite. I just got a new phone for £25. It has a 2Mpx camera, but
only because I couldn't get one without.

I'm on PAYG, but bought a phone with a decent camera. That get more use
than the phone. ;-)

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.