On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 15:50:41 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 07:04:12 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

There was an article about a women who couldn;t recognise her two kids faces (no the kids weren't two faced)


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...e-own-children

Oooerr! Now I'd have to admit, as it mentions in the article that
like others I sometimes have difficulty recognising people of a
different race (the old stereotype of 'they all look the same to me
...') but only when they do share a close 'look'.

I have the same problem with sheep but apparently sheep can recognise 50 faces least



But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so.

I was thinking of those on ovens and gas rings and how attaching nuts to those meant they had to go on the other way around.

Ah, yes, sorry, but then I think that's done for a reason (like wheel
hub nuts) and so most people would be forgiven for not getting them
right first go (although they often have small cuts in the corners to
give us a clue). ;-)

Didn;t notice when I was fitting them under desk as we used them for securing computers down.



yes you can get the hane of it, I was trying to solder using a microscope
as you move the tip up under the scope it moves down so everything is reversed except up and down as in hieght.

Was that a straight optical scope Dave?

Well I can;t say here at uni we treat all genders and sexualities equally even the scopses ;-)

I used a microscope camera adapter and tried using a nikon D3200 for viewing and filming but it was too difficult so we now have a MEIJI Tecno emz-8tr with a MFO 150

I've done quite a bit of fine
soldering under a camera microscope and of course you can turn the
camera round to make it linear. ;-)

No you can't or it didn't on the scope we were using.



Whilst I'm sure there is a mix of nature and nurture I think most can
generally improve their skills with training and practice (or training
OR practice as people can learn in different ways).

I suppose so, btu I dont think I'll ever make a ballerina, rugby player,
or an einstien.

We ran a rearch project here, I heard about it on a science podcast.
we tetses about 30 female students to see if playing computer games imnporved such things as co-ordination and it was found they did although only to a small degree and after a number of times it didn't improve them any more.

This test was volentary and those studetns that spend less than 4 hours a week playign video games were tested. That's why only female studetns were chosens as no male volenteers could be found that played less than 4 hours gaming a week. :-)
Hearing that on a science popcast made me chuckle. I couldnt; have applied as a volenteer.



Like I never had any issues differentiating
my left and right or port and starboard etc. 'Right' is just that way
(to the right) and I can't see (but accept it is the case of course)
why everyone else can't just to so equally?

Left and right is a strange concept, try imagingign explaing it to an alien on another planet how would you describe what left and right were same as up and down.

Hmm, that's the thing, I can't imagine *not* being able to explain it
to an alien (even).

then how try it using a phone.

Right is just the label to that side / direction,
just as is forward or up.

what is up ?
what if that alien is in AUstralia ?


How come even those who can't remember their
left from right, don't generally have issues with the other
dimensions?

They do. NSEW beign another, most remmebr up is north but east and west.....



Even Rod in Aus knows what up is

Are you sure about that? weg

well I have no evidence just wishful thinking :-)


but if we were both to point to up we'd bother be pointing pretty much in the opposite directions.

Not if observed by someone in front of us but yes if you are talking
about it absolutely. However, if you asked them both to point towards
something that was generic to the world, say 'the North',

but they'd both have to know what the word north represented.

if you asked someone in Aus to point to polaris (the north star)
and someone to do the same in the UK chances are one would point to above them and the other to their feet.



they would
(should) both point in the same direction. Good point though. ;-)

only because you're telling them to point to an object that the both know off.
There's no such thing as left and right, up and down in space unless you're use gravity as a POV or a particular object.



I wonder if that is also linked to a 'sense of direction'? We know
birds and some other creatures can use the earths magnetic fields to
give them a 'bearing' so I wonder if some people can also tap into
that, even if only subconsciously?

yes there's a tribe in Austrailian that doesn;t use the mthods other humans do for directions. Star trek use a similar system of co-ordinates.

Oh?

elevation and angular direction.
230 mark 145 engage a longtidu and latitude basically with a fixed point being the centre of teh universe I think.




Those AUSies also say that their future is behind them and teh past in front.

But they are a strange lot. ;-)

yeah some more than others


if you think about it it makes sense.
You can not see yuor future so it must be behind, and as for teh past well we know(can see) our past as it's in front. Seems logical if you think about it.

Well, yes, I guess, but that's only because you / they are using the
term 'see' literally? However, it's nothing to do with sight but time
so they both work (correctly) even with your eyes shut. ;-)

and that tribe can find their way in the dark even without stars they seem to know where north is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_direction

tink it was these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guugu_Yimithirr



If we are visiting a new to us town, walk round and round and end up
in a cafe, when we leave to go back to the car I'll tend to start off
in the right direction whereas the Mrs will go in what appears to be a
completely arbitrary direction (possibly linked to the direction we
came in from, if we are lucky). ;-)

I can be liek that and my mum when going into a shop and coming out never could work out which direction along the street she was going,

It can be funny sometimes. ;-)

~15% of people have left right issues (direction not politics)


she also could visual cutting a round cake into 3, she just couldn't get the Y shape anywhere near correct propotionally,

Well to be fair, I think most people but have to think about that for
a second and maybe use a little trial and error prior cutting.

Well it's a Y so not that difficult for me, but then my spelling isn;t good
and I can;t easily do joined up writing , but my mum is an excelent speller and has very neat handwriting.


wasn't bad with cutting it in 4 though.

Ah, the advantages of symmetry. ;-)


But didn't they print an upside down map of England that was supposed
to be for 'women'?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upside-Down-.../dp/0952930404

intresting not sure hwo useful it is or why.

Well, if some people are traveling North to South they would turn the
map over but then all the place names are upside down. That map fixes
that. Same with people who have 'Track Up' on their GPSD's. It's as if
they are just driving forward all the time with no consideration for
the compass.

That's how I prefer to use a map turn it teh way I'm travelling.


On my GPS's I always set them to 'North up' because that way I am
seeing it as I would if looking at a map and so can retain *my*
bearings.

that's the defualt I guess not sure hwo those in the southern hem. do it.

I'm guessing still 'North up' as that's the way the maps are still
printed their way.

But there version of up as in looking at the sky is differnt from ours we'd see differnt stars.


If I come across some new road or traffic layout that isn't
covered on the GPS I can still navigate manually because I was aware
what direction I was heading in the first place. ;-)

Apparently women are better at remebring such things from their POV rather than from a map POV. soemthing to do with them having a slightly wider field of view than men.


Ok.


The thing that still gets me is when joining the likes of the M25 are
the choices on the signs have no bearing on my destination. Now I know
it can't be like a tube map where it tells you on each direction
choice, all the stops in order but an abbreviated version might be
better than two places I'm not interested in or even directly on the
M25!

I think daughters later Garmin GPS has better lane guidance and it
announces the name of the road you are turning into (that can be quite
reassuring) so I might try hers on the next trip and may even treat
myself to one (or it's current replacement). That way I get some
better features and the latest maps. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Not drivign means I don;t have any of these devices not even an iPhone
so dont; really comment on how useful they are to me.

Ok, if you don't need to make journey direction decisions then they
may not be of much use to you at all.

well if I want to get to somewhere I use public transport so still have to know about directios, and I can;t change teh mind of teh bus or train driver if I find i'm going the wrong way. in a car you just do a 3 point turn.
I cant; ask a train driver to do that.




I can still use a A-Z map

Ok, then if you use that then a GPS might be of use. So, say you used
public transport and pop out of the underground somewhere in London
and need to find a building down a myriad of backstreets easily and
quickly. With an A to Z you either have to look in the index, find
where you are and where you want to go, joint the two together (hoping
they are on the same page) and 'steer' yourself with the AtoZ as you
go.

yep, but usualy I remmeber the route or draw it on a piece of paper.


With a GPS you would only need to enter your destination (Postcode and
number or address or find it in the Points Of Interest listings (if it
was a Hospital etc). and say 'Route'. You don't have to know where you
are and if you make a wrong turn along the way it sorts itself out
again. ;-)

Well yes but there are other options.


although some things are obviously out of date.
especailly the list of strip pubs in the local area listed at the back. :-)

Hehe, I'm not sure any GPS has that sort of specialised listing by
default.

Should have. :-)

but then againn in the 90s GPS didnlt existed and my flatmate was astripper and she needed to know how to get from A-B to G-string, and managed it a decade or so before GPS was about.


However, many companies now supply POI for their shops or
golf courses though.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2016 10:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/02/16 09:15, John Rumm wrote:

I had an argument with a technophile friend. Full of himself and his
gadgets 'a satnav will always tell you how to get there better than
a map'

'Possibly, but it doesn't help me decide where I want to go, does
it?'

What about if it has lots of interesting "points of interest" overlays
loaded?


It tells me where 'they' want me to go. Usually an expensive place..

Where "they" may be you, or any other group you have an interest in. In
the case of the Tomtom OVL files, they are a well document standard and
loads of third parties produce them, not just the satnav maker.

My brother an SIL are great map lovers. Wouldn't demean themselves by
having a satnav. Just a boot full of maps to cover UK roads in almost the
same detail as a satnav. And, of course, they're all out of date.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:56:24 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

While I can get *some* idea from a description, a diagram or artist's
impression photo/drawing would always be a better way of understanding.

Of course and I think that applies to most of us.

And
a 3D mockup that I could actually use would be an even better way of
checking for problems.

Agreed.

Take this example: My wife and I went to look round a show house for a
development of new houses. The kitchen sink was unusual in that it did not
face an outside window; instead it was on a low internal wall above which
there was an archway into the living room. Unusual, but nothing inherently
wrong. Except... the mixer tap head was able to swivel through 360 degrees
(without a restraining interlock to keep its jet within the bounds of the
sink and draining board). In fact if it was rotated through 180 degrees, it
directed its jet to the far side of the archway onto the living room carpet!

Yup, and from your description I could probably sketch that layout for
you.

Now imagine what "fun" a five-year-old could have when mummy and daddy
weren't looking...

Absolutely.

Someone hadn't thought that on through, had they?

This is the problem I am seeing more and more. Many 'people' can only
comprehend what is out there easily and do things the way it has
always been done. So, they get 'a tap' and fit it the way they have
fitted that type of tap before. Few would look into seeing if there
was an alternative tap that was already rotation restricted or
consider fitting something that restricted the movement (like a splash
back).

goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

That's unusual. Normal (British) convention is anticlockwise to unscrew a
thread towards you so as to open the tap, and clockwise to screw it away
from you and close it. Are the taps a matching pair or could one have been
replaced by a newer one which happened to use the opposite convention?

Sorry, these are those ceramic 1/4 turn jobbies.

That's assuming that they are on separate parallel axes - as if they were
two separate taps which happen to feed a common output.

They are opposite each other on either side of the mixer.

If they are opposite
each other on a common axis, on either side of the head, then I can see
sense in making them turn in opposite directions so you move the side-lobe
from the vertical off position through 1/4 turn to the on position, so both
lobes face towards you, whereas if they rotated in opposite senses the lobe
of would be towards you and the other would be away from you.

I think that's the idea. It was a bit weird initially but we soon got
used to it (and are very used to it 25+ years on). ;-)


Then there's the convention for light switches: in the UK you press the
lower half of a rocker switch or move the lobe to the downward position to
turn a switch on, whereas in the US it's the opposite way round.

Yeah. I think their idea with switches with more elongated actuators
is that if you slipped you would turn it off, but I'm not sure that
should apply to rocker switches though? However, once you have a
convention like that I guess it's safer to stick with it.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 16:52:03 +0000, T i m wrote:

snip

The TomTom GPS unit(?) knows how fast it is going by triangulation and
timing of the satellite signals. Or did you add that the GPS unit
actually transmits it's speed and location up to somewhere ('TomTom
HQ') somehow? Is that what / all you have said so far or have I
missed something?

snip

I'd need it explaining further before seeing above would help. ;-)

Looks like I was close:

"TomTom GO 6100
The TomTom GO 6100 is our most advanced all-in-one GO model. Get there
faster with Lifetime TomTom Services including map updates at no extra
cost, real-time TomTom Traffic updates and speed camera alerts.
Connect your TomTom GO 6100 with MyDrive and send your destination to
your GO before you get into the car. What's more, the built-in SIM
card means you're always connected to these services, even when
driving abroad. And with no roaming charges!"

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/drive/ca...o-6100-europe/

So, it (well that model anyway) has a phone SIM in it and so can
upload real time data all the time (subject to range etc).

Makes sense to do it that way, as it did with speed camera points
(where you press a button on the GPS when you pass a camera and then
upload it over the net when you get home (via the dock). Enough user
inputs agreeing and they then download the info to everyone).

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/2016 12:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

It might be there are far more Tomtom users out there, so you hear the
horror stories more often? (I don't know what the market split is)

(There is a sign on the entrance to the road at the end of my road,
which says "Attention satnav users (especially Garmin), this is a no
through road". Which suggests no brand is immune to inappropriate routing)

Maybe TomTom attracts the less technical user (their marketing / TV
ads seem to support that) and so maybe their 'typical' users doesn't
investigate the routing settings or somesuch?

Could be...

I love my old Garmin GPS V as it has a fully programmable display. Say
it can display 100 different fields (like altitude, dusk / dawn, ETA,
current speed, max speed etc) and you can choose what combination you
want on each display screen.

As these units have become more common / cheaper they have also been
simplified (from my POV) to be more 'user friendly' and therefore some
of the things I might find useful (like current lat / long) hidden, if
available at all. ;-(

Indeed. You can get different classes of device aimed at different users
though. Some really are intended just for on road navigation, while
others are more cable as general purpose location (and elevation)
measuring devices.

I guess that's also why I generally / still refer to such things
(especially the portable jobbies) as 'GPS units', rather than 'Sat
Nav' as my early ones didn't have any autorouting type navigation,
just a generic 'Go that way' pointer. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] It used to amaze me how many people simply don't update anything
... from GPS maps, system firmware (inc PC BIOSs) or their PC OS's
(when it's often the first thing I do when given some stuff to play
with).

Could be because the satnav makers charge for updates, and for many
journeys and old map will "get you there" even if not taking advantage
of newer and better routes.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:


Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection. On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

My 700 did die , I replaced it with a 710 and used it daily when I was
working, one feature I liked was if somebody sent a text you could get
it to read it aloud which was useful as sometimes the text was
important enough to merit a change in destination. On the go it isn't
really wise to attempt to read a text but pulling off a motorway and
finding the message was about something non urgent was a right PIA,
but then so was driving for miles and then finding you were needed
back along the way you came.
Still adequate on the odd occasion we use it though occasionally we
end up appearing to drive in fields. Doesn't really matter as only
really used it as a last mile tool most of the time.
Never got on with a Garmin that came free with a car but it was a
fairly basic model.
Somewhere in a drawer I have a Garmin emap which still works though
compared to modern offerings it is a bit basic, must have had it about
15 years now.
Got a discount on it when I took it back to the Maplin branch I had
purchased it from and mentioned it had been used possibly as a
demonstration model.
"No Sir it is brand new". " Oh well I better see who lives at the end
of the breadcrumb trail" which was in a town about 15 miles away.
"oh" said the now red faced manager " I was trying it out".


G.Harman

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:56:02 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , T i m
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 05:34:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so 'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

That's merely because that's what you purchased. It doesn't have to be
like that.

Quite? Sorry, did you think I was complaining or something?

As I said elsewhere, whilst it took a second to get used to (and I
still can't be 100% I don't ever try to turn the hot on
traditionally), it hasn't ever really been an issue.

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/2016 16:56, NY wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

While I can get *some* idea from a description, a diagram or artist's
impression photo/drawing would always be a better way of understanding.
And a 3D mockup that I could actually use would be an even better way of
checking for problems.

That's why designers often do 3D isometric views of their plans, because
many people can't look at 2D elevation drawings and visualise what
something will look like.

But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so 'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for onwhereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

LPG screw fittings tend to do up anticlockwise. Its a deliberate
incompatibility thing, you can mix up gas and some other piped service
so easily.

That's unusual. Normal (British) convention is anticlockwise to unscrew
a thread towards you so as to open the tap, and clockwise to screw it
away from you and close it. Are the taps a matching pair or could one
have been replaced by a newer one which happened to use the opposite
convention?

That's assuming that they are on separate parallel axes - as if they
were two separate taps which happen to feed a common output. If they are
opposite each other on a common axis, on either side of the head, then I
can see sense in making them turn in opposite directions so you move the
side-lobe from the vertical off position through 1/4 turn to the on
position, so both lobes face towards you, whereas if they rotated in
opposite senses the lobe of would be towards you and the other would be
away from you.

Its common with the mixer taps where the rotation of the handles is on
the horizontal axis perpendicular to the user. So with long levers for
controls they would both be "up" for off, and you would pull them down
toward you for on. So yes, the left hand one is working backwards, but
it feels more intuitive so long as you don't think about the actual
direction of rotation.

Then there's the convention for light switches: in the UK you press the
lower half of a rocker switch or move the lobe to the downward position
to turn a switch on, whereas in the US it's the opposite way round.

Loads of places seem to use up for on. In fact in the UK we would use
terminology like the system is back up again, or the computer went down,
reflecting the US style switching convention.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 03/02/2016 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

In the case of the google devices, they use the data from all the other
devices that are in the area, and compare them to historical records for
the section of road. Its one of those cases where the more users there
are in an area the better the modelling gets.

In fact if you go into your "timeline" on google maps (you need to tick
the box to say you agree to it collecting data etc), then it does a
(hard to decide on which side of creepy) trick of recording your
movements and showing them as a combination of itinerary and plotted on
a map, all nicely tied up to a calendar. So you can see exactly where
and when the phone went *anywhere* in the past. It even spots the
buildings you were in most times, sometimes with a question like "were
you in name of business/place?", so it learns the places you go and no
doubt updates its database with the "corrections" people make so that
there accuracy improves with time. (its quite nifty when you want to
check how long you were at a certain place or how long it took etc). If
often use it for cross checking invoices, to make sure I have not forgot
to record any site visits to clients ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:52:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 12:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

It might be there are far more Tomtom users out there, so you hear the
horror stories more often? (I don't know what the market split is)

Good point and I don't know either (but would be interested to find
out).

(There is a sign on the entrance to the road at the end of my road,
which says "Attention satnav users (especially Garmin), this is a no
through road". Which suggests no brand is immune to inappropriate routing)

Tell me about it. We regularly get continental 'artics' down here who
have been guided then get stuck down here by their (more often than
not) TomTom Satnavs (I know because I ask). ;-)

One wrote our old family car off then drove off (thanks). ;-(

It's possible they may only have the more basic maps for countries
outside their own, or simply haven't ever updated them.

Maybe TomTom attracts the less technical user (their marketing / TV
ads seem to support that) and so maybe their 'typical' users doesn't
investigate the routing settings or somesuch?

Could be...

I'm pretty sure it was *only* Garmin in the beginning (for consumer
price GPS's) but that doesn't stop any 'new boys' overtaking if their
marketing and pricing are good enough (being as they all work
similarly these days). If you saw a GPS in a car, boat or plane is was
probably a Garmin at the beginning. I think they were also the first
to make the waterproof models (boats, motorcycling and hiking).

I love my old Garmin GPS V as it has a fully programmable display. Say
it can display 100 different fields (like altitude, dusk / dawn, ETA,
current speed, max speed etc) and you can choose what combination you
want on each display screen.

As these units have become more common / cheaper they have also been
simplified (from my POV) to be more 'user friendly' and therefore some
of the things I might find useful (like current lat / long) hidden, if
available at all. ;-(

Indeed. You can get different classes of device aimed at different users
though. Some really are intended just for on road navigation, while
others are more cable as general purpose location (and elevation)
measuring devices.

Ok.

I guess that's also why I generally / still refer to such things
(especially the portable jobbies) as 'GPS units', rather than 'Sat
Nav' as my early ones didn't have any autorouting type navigation,
just a generic 'Go that way' pointer. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] It used to amaze me how many people simply don't update anything
... from GPS maps, system firmware (inc PC BIOSs) or their PC OS's
(when it's often the first thing I do when given some stuff to play
with).

Could be because the satnav makers charge for updates,

I guess, although even pre 'Free Map updates for life (of that unit
g), many of the Garmin units allowed you to update the map to the
current map for free, if one had been released reasonably recently.

and for many
journeys and old map will "get you there" even if not taking advantage
of newer and better routes.

Oh indeed. Because I haven't updated the maps on my Nuvi for a good
few years now I sometimes appear to be driving across a field (rather
than the new by-pass I'm actually driving on) or that roundabout is
now a crossroads etc. As you say, whilst it may be awkward if you are
now in a one way system that your GPS doesn't know about (so you have
overridden it's instructions of course) it's generally not long before
you are back on course. ;-)

I still think they are amazing bits of kit and I've had one for over
~12 years now. My first:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/spor...-/prod121.html

Waterproof (submersible, IPX7), ran on AA cells (alkaline or
rechargeable and had battery monitor settings for each) so you could
never be caught short with no power, had an external power jack and
removable aerial with a std BNC connector. The screen and aerial could
also be rotated though 90 Deg for hand held use.

http://www.bobulous.org.uk/imho/gpsIIIpraise.html

I think I paid a bit less than the £260 the guy paid in the review but
I think I got it from the same place. One place I used it with
interest was a scheduled flight to Nice. Interesting to see where you
were over the ground, altitude and speed. ;-)

And they have done a few over the years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Garmin_products

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/2016 16:52, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:09:00 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

Tomtoms traffic is a two way process, the sat nav tells tomtom how fast
you are going

To clarify:

The TomTom GPS unit(?) knows how fast it is going by triangulation and
timing of the satellite signals. Or did you add that the GPS unit
actually transmits it's speed and location up to somewhere ('TomTom
HQ') somehow? Is that what / all you have said so far or have I
missed something?

All it needs to report is its location... Tomtom HQ can work out
everything else since it has a map of where every location is in
relation to every other one, and how they are connected.

so if another tomtom user experiences a delay they can
inform others.

How?

For delays, simply by reporting co-ordinates not much displaced from
those of the last report.

For actual map errors etc, then they have a facility for users to make
corrections. They then compare multiple observations and make updates if
there is a correlated agreement.

Perhaps with access to enough devices and time, you might be able to
game the system to prevent cars being directed down your road! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:57:56 +0000, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:


Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well.

Handy. My Nuvi can do that but now my phone has hands free I don't
normally bother.

Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Yup. Even my early Garmin had a base 'World Map' built in but it only
really covered the major roads.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models.

Id say I'm in two minds about that. My Nuvi has it and on any real
journey I'll turn it on for the S&G. It can also autoroute you around
any delays or obstructions but I think I have that turned off,
preferring to make my own decisions at the time.

Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Again, Garmin seem to have (or had?) the market for the hand-held
trekking units.

My 700 did die , I replaced it with a 710 and used it daily when I was
working,

They are a boon, that's for sure.

one feature I liked was if somebody sent a text you could get
it to read it aloud which was useful as sometimes the text was
important enough to merit a change in destination.

And that's where we differ from the 6_week_ahead flat-world paper map
planners in that we might have to change course at any point. ;-)

On the go it isn't
really wise to attempt to read a text but pulling off a motorway and
finding the message was about something non urgent was a right PIA,
but then so was driving for miles and then finding you were needed
back along the way you came.

Quite. ;-)

Still adequate on the odd occasion we use it though occasionally we
end up appearing to drive in fields.

;-)

Doesn't really matter as only
really used it as a last mile tool most of the time.

Again, that is a big plus isn't it. We have previously (prior to
getting the GPS's) wasted *loads* of time at the end of an otherwise
fast and uneventfully journey, just trying to find the house, factory,
shop or campsite etc.

Never got on with a Garmin that came free with a car but it was a
fairly basic model.

Some of the early ones didn't have postcode search but my mate (a
private pilot) still prefers his old Garmin Streetpilot to most of the
systems built into cars (possibly partly 'the devil you know' etc).
;-)

Somewhere in a drawer I have a Garmin emap which still works though
compared to modern offerings it is a bit basic, must have had it about
15 years now.

Still good bit of kit. ;-)

Got a discount on it when I took it back to the Maplin branch I had
purchased it from and mentioned it had been used possibly as a
demonstration model.
"No Sir it is brand new". " Oh well I better see who lives at the end
of the breadcrumb trail" which was in a town about 15 miles away.
"oh" said the now red faced manager " I was trying it out".

Ooops. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 18:26:01 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

As I said elsewhere, whilst it took a second to get used to (and I
still can't be 100% I don't ever try to turn the hot on
traditionally), it hasn't ever really been an issue.

Ah well I find it intensely irritating.

;-)

Why this American habit has
come here is a mystery. The only place where that behaviour is
appropriate is those hospital sinks with long tap arms.

It would be more intuitive under those conditions granted.

When we moved in here, bathroom had these:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/swirl-magellan-bathroom-basin-taps-pair/99862

ab-so-lute-ly ****ing useless - any hint of soap on your hands and you
can't turn them.

It's funny I thought that before I read your next bit! ;-)

I struggled for about a year and then replaced them
with sensible cross-heads. Of course, the ones I junked looked "cool" -
probably put in at the insistence of the teenage girls who used to live
here.

Many_a_time I've discounted something for similar reasons. I DGAF what
it looks like if it doesn't work properly. ;-(

We have a ceramic mixer in the kitchen where the taps turn like yours.
Do some stuff there, then head to the downstairs loo which also has a
mixer - where both taps operate the same way.

Great. It's like having regular access to two vehicles where the wiper
and indicator stalks are on opposite sides.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 18:35:36 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 16:52, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:09:00 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

Tomtoms traffic is a two way process, the sat nav tells tomtom how fast
you are going

To clarify:

The TomTom GPS unit(?) knows how fast it is going by triangulation and
timing of the satellite signals. Or did you add that the GPS unit
actually transmits it's speed and location up to somewhere ('TomTom
HQ') somehow? Is that what / all you have said so far or have I
missed something?

All it needs to report is its location... Tomtom HQ can work out
everything else since it has a map of where every location is in
relation to every other one, and how they are connected.

Yeahbut it was 'how' it reported back I was interested in. ;-)

so if another tomtom user experiences a delay they can
inform others.

How?

For delays, simply by reporting co-ordinates not much displaced from
those of the last report.

.... over a mobile phone network data link ... ;-)

For actual map errors etc, then they have a facility for users to make
corrections.

Yes, I have done that with Garmin for our actual road (name).

They then compare multiple observations and make updates if
there is a correlated agreement.

Ok.

Perhaps with access to enough devices and time, you might be able to
game the system to prevent cars being directed down your road! ;-)

Hehe ... worth a thought (or more pertinently, massive lorries at 2am
in the rain and me going out to get them out of trouble to save them
writing off any more parked cars ...). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 18:19:24 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

In the case of the google devices, they use the data from all the other
devices that are in the area, and compare them to historical records for
the section of road. Its one of those cases where the more users there
are in an area the better the modelling gets.

Understood.

In fact if you go into your "timeline" on google maps (you need to tick
the box to say you agree to it collecting data etc), then it does a
(hard to decide on which side of creepy)

LOL!

trick of recording your
movements and showing them as a combination of itinerary and plotted on
a map, all nicely tied up to a calendar. So you can see exactly where
and when the phone went *anywhere* in the past.

I wonder if the tick box you mentioned earlier actually does anything
weg

It even spots the
buildings you were in most times, sometimes with a question like "were
you in name of business/place?", so it learns the places you go and no
doubt updates its database with the "corrections" people make so that
there accuracy improves with time.

I'm sure that's going to spoil a few marriages. ;-)

(its quite nifty when you want to
check how long you were at a certain place or how long it took etc). If
often use it for cross checking invoices, to make sure I have not forgot
to record any site visits to clients ;-)

That's a good idea.

Cheers, T i m

On 2/3/2016 1:26 PM, Tim Streater wrote:

When we moved in here, bathroom had these:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/swirl-magellan-bathroom-basin-taps-pair/99862

ab-so-lute-ly ****ing useless - any hint of soap on your hands and you
can't turn them. I struggled for about a year and then replaced them
with sensible cross-heads. Of course, the ones I junked looked "cool" -
probably put in at the insistence of the teenage girls who used to live
here.

Ours were very similar - and the kitchen had them, too!
They have been replaced with something sensible.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application,

It is the GPS application on a phone.

but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware

No one ever said it was.

that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

It does nothing of the sort on a phone.

dennis@home wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I didn't get frustrated with my TomTom. The only real quirk with it
was that with roads outside the town proper, you have to use the
name of the area the road is in as a pseudo town to find it. And even
TomTom support didn't know that, I found that out using google.

Update the tomtom then

No thanks, I use google maps in the phone now and don’t use the tomtom at
all.

because that's not how the current ones work.

So, when you specify the destination by town first and then street/road,
how do they handle that with roads that aren't in a town ?

Stuff like google maps do it the other way, you specify the street/road
first and then select from the ones offered to you by town or area.

And with rural roads you can't do it by postcode either, they don’t have
one and our postcodes are the same for multiple adjacent towns in rural
areas.

That may be why even tomtom support didn’t understand the
problem, they don’t realise that you cant use postcodes here
and tomtom had to use that workaround here and likely still do.

On 03/02/2016 18:30, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:52:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 12:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

It might be there are far more Tomtom users out there, so you hear the
horror stories more often? (I don't know what the market split is)

Good point and I don't know either (but would be interested to find
out).

(There is a sign on the entrance to the road at the end of my road,
which says "Attention satnav users (especially Garmin), this is a no
through road". Which suggests no brand is immune to inappropriate routing)

Tell me about it. We regularly get continental 'artics' down here who
have been guided then get stuck down here by their (more often than
not) TomTom Satnavs (I know because I ask). ;-)

Ask them if its a tomtom truck satnav.
These have all the restrictions programmed in.
The ones in argos, etc. are car navs and are not suitable for 40 tonne
trucks.


One wrote our old family car off then drove off (thanks). ;-(

It's possible they may only have the more basic maps for countries
outside their own, or simply haven't ever updated them.

Or are cheapskates that don't use the right tool.

dennis@home wrote
T i m wrote

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local
knowledge would probably win over any GPS congestion
displays. I've been taken on routes by the GPS I wouldn't
typically take because I know all the little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.

But not as well as google.maps does.

The system actually knows how long its taking to get down a road
while the local knowledge only knows its usually a five minute delay.
The tomtom will take you down the quickest route it can find and
includes the back streets.

So does google.maps and it has much better
measured traffic info than tomtom does.

On 03/02/2016 20:25, Rod Speed wrote:

So, when you specify the destination by town first and then street/road,
how do they handle that with roads that aren't in a town ?

You don't.
You start typing the street and it shows a list of everything that
matches in distance order until you hit space and start typing a city/town.

On 03/02/2016 20:43, Rod Speed wrote:
dennis@home wrote
T i m wrote

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local knowledge
would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've been taken
on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I know all the
little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.

But not as well as google.maps does.

Google can't track phones in the UK, its illegal.

The system actually knows how long its taking to get down a road while
the local knowledge only knows its usually a five minute delay.
The tomtom will take you down the quickest route it can find and
includes the back streets.

So does google.maps and it has much better measured traffic info than
tomtom does.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:32:15 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 18:30, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:52:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 12:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

It might be there are far more Tomtom users out there, so you hear the
horror stories more often? (I don't know what the market split is)

Good point and I don't know either (but would be interested to find
out).

(There is a sign on the entrance to the road at the end of my road,
which says "Attention satnav users (especially Garmin), this is a no
through road". Which suggests no brand is immune to inappropriate routing)

Tell me about it. We regularly get continental 'artics' down here who
have been guided then get stuck down here by their (more often than
not) TomTom Satnavs (I know because I ask). ;-)

Ask them if its a tomtom truck satnav.

Is there such a thing?

These have all the restrictions programmed in.

I'm not sure even a bicycle Satnav would be confused by a complete
dead end! ;-)

The ones in argos, etc. are car navs and are not suitable for 40 tonne
trucks.

Even my earliest Garmin had the option of different vehicles and when
you select say 'Truck' it adjusted both the typical speeds but also
any width restrictions etc.


One wrote our old family car off then drove off (thanks). ;-(

It's possible they may only have the more basic maps for countries
outside their own, or simply haven't ever updated them.

Or are cheapskates that don't use the right tool.

See above re dead ends. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are trackers!!

He likely does given that he's into conspiracy theorys.

On 03/02/2016 20:59, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:32:15 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 18:30, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:52:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 12:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

It might be there are far more Tomtom users out there, so you hear the
horror stories more often? (I don't know what the market split is)

Good point and I don't know either (but would be interested to find
out).

(There is a sign on the entrance to the road at the end of my road,
which says "Attention satnav users (especially Garmin), this is a no
through road". Which suggests no brand is immune to inappropriate routing)

Tell me about it. We regularly get continental 'artics' down here who
have been guided then get stuck down here by their (more often than
not) TomTom Satnavs (I know because I ask). ;-)

Ask them if its a tomtom truck satnav.

Is there such a thing?

http://tomtom.com/en_gb/drive/truck/...Link=top_nav_4


These have all the restrictions programmed in.

I'm not sure even a bicycle Satnav would be confused by a complete
dead end! ;-)

The ones in argos, etc. are car navs and are not suitable for 40 tonne
trucks.

Even my earliest Garmin had the option of different vehicles and when
you select say 'Truck' it adjusted both the typical speeds but also
any width restrictions etc.

I doubt if it did.
It my have avoided single track roads but did it know about height
restrictions, load limits, etc.?


One wrote our old family car off then drove off (thanks). ;-(

It's possible they may only have the more basic maps for countries
outside their own, or simply haven't ever updated them.

Or are cheapskates that don't use the right tool.

See above re dead ends. ;-)

Go on tomtom and report it as an error.

On 03/02/16 20:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

It does nothing of the sort on a phone.


Actually, it does.


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 03/02/16 17:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
If you don't have a smart phone, a tablet, or a surface and you own
a car, and you can read a map, its amazing what you don't need.

Well quite. I just got a new phone for £25. It has a 2Mpx camera, but
only because I couldn't get one without.

I'm on PAYG, but bought a phone with a decent camera.

That's a contradiction in terms.

Why?

I am on PAYG and I bought a phone with no camera.

Or are you saying *no* phone has a decent camera?

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I generally have my GPS with me when in the car

I didn't, but that was because I normally charged
it using the mains charger in the house,

Not from the car when in the car (as well possibly)?

Nar, it was more convenient to not have it plugged
into anything. I didn't have it mounted, just sitting
on the top of the dash with suction cup turned
down pointing at the dash, but not attached at all.
This is a 710 which has a great big bulge behind
the screen so the whole thing sits on the top of
the dash fine.

That way I could pick it up when going thru the
itinerary which needs you to essentially tell it
to go onto the next one or to back track to an
earlier item in the itinerary because they don't
all open at the advertised time with garage sales.

On long trips where the charge wouldn't last
for the entire trip, I'd just turn it off when
I know where I am going and just turn it on
when things weren't as well known by me.

Never had it run out of power that way.

and put the garage/yard sales in it as an itinerary when it
was in the house the night before the garage/yard sale run.

Makes sense.

And set up the itinerary using google maps on
the PC and then manually moved that to the GPS.

Those were the days when I didn't have most of the streets
in my head. It was easier to setup the itinerary using google
maps where you could see where each stop is and basically
do the routing manually. You cant do it automatically because
garage sales have different starting times and I never found
any system that would auto route those that was free.

I was planning to do one myself but didn't
because I don't use itinerarys anymore.

Now that we coordinate the opening times by phone,
we basically decide on the run itself who will visit each
one to see if its open yet. Usually one of us takes a
group that are close to each other and the others
take another similar group and tell each other what
is open and what has been tried and isnt yet open etc.

I used to do that regularly using Garmins Mapsource (on Windows,
no Linux support) before my GPS's had postcode support.

Postcodes don't work here. Ours aren't anything like
as fine grained as yours are. All the garage sales have
the same postcode even those in adjacent towns.

I still do so now when planning an actual trip but the waypoints
can often get unused if we change our plans en-route.

I don't do many trips like that. They most have a fixed
destination and at most a choice of routes to get there.

I was going to automate that but changed to the
smartphone before I got around to doing that.

Ok.

I don't put the whole lot in the phone anymore, just the ones
that I either can't completely remember where the street is
or which have a street number so it can direct me to the
exact garage/yard and I put them into google maps while
setting up for the garage/yard sale run very early before
the run starts. I have my own facebook group which has
all the garage/yard sales listed and ideally you should be
able to just tap on the address in there and have that
handed to the mapper, but currently facebook doesn't
allow that. Which reminds me, I must remember to suggest
that to facebook, they keep asking for suggestions and keep
enhancing their smartphone app based on suggestions.

Go for it. ;-)

but agree I well always have my phone
with me (assuming I haven't left it at home).

Yeah, I hardly ever forget to take it with me now.

I do. ;-(

I don't lose my keys either and almost never run out of petrol.
Hardly ever manage to go out without my wallet either, just
once in something like 60 years now.

and it does things much better, particularly with live measured
traffic and stuff like street view that can be handy at times and
being so easy to do proper google searches when the GPS itself
doesn't show you what you want POI wise etc and being able to
just tap on an address in the google hit or an email or facebook
'inbox' and have that auto handed to the mapper which then
directs you to that place etc.

And breathe! ;-)

Too radical by far |-)

Yes, but, all the above assumes you have 'Data'
on your phone and a reasonable connection?

No, there are plenty of offline mappers and
google maps can be used like that if you want to.

Yes, so you are using it like a straight GPS (no mobile Data) at that
point?

I don't usually use the offline mode because the data
costs me peanuts, not even 20c for the entire garage
sale run. The petrol costs me much more than that.

Yes, it will do full routing in offline mode.

Unless you are just using it like a dumb paper map?

You can use it like that but I don't.

And it only costs peanuts if you don't bother.
I pay 7.5c/MB for data and pay by the KB so
I normally get a nav for about 1-2c for the data.

But you do therefore have to have an active connection

No you don't have to. You can use offline mode if you want.

(that you agree isn't actually 'free')

It is in offline mode when you load the
map using your wifi before you leave.

and that isn't all the time (over here anyway).

It is if you use offline mode.

And is always completely up to date.

See above (or not even functional).

Doesn't apply with offline maps. google maps
reminds you to update them for free when on wifi.

Ok. I have Navmii on my SGS4 and I think that
tells me when there are updated maps available.

Google maps just tells you that you haven't updated
it for a while, doesn't actually try to keep track of what
changes have happened because they happen at a hell
of a rate with users adding stuff and fixing errors.

And when out walking for exercise its handy to just go wherever
looks interesting at the time particularly where you haven't been
before and then just ask it for the best route back to the car etc.

Yup, routing back to a know point ('breadcrumb trail')
is also a handy function.

I prefer not to come back the same way I went
out, prefer to come back on a different route
so I move thru somewhere different instead.

Yes, and that makes sense when you are happy
to carry on your 'trip' and are 100% confident you
can get back to the start / car a different way.

Yeah, I am always 100% confident of that even without
any gps or map or compass. Its just more efficient done
with a gps and I only use the gps for that very rarely.

However, if it's getting dark and you aren't sure,

That never happens with me. I am always sure.
The only thing I don't know is where it might
be less convenient because the scrub is too
thick to move thru easily because I haven't
been that way before.

returning the way you came will always be safer

Not for me.

(or at least more predictable).

Yes, that's certainly true, but less interesting.

A straight line from your current point to
the destination might be via a ravine. ;-)

Easy to check using goggle earth etc and for where
its dense scrub that is a nuisance to get thru and
rivers that are a nuisance to get across.

Again, assuming you have a data connection
in the middle of that remote scrub land

No that can be loaded into the phone before you leave.

or a GPS preloaded with detailed maps of that area.

You can do that into any smartphone.

Same with wandering around a city as a tourist, just
wander around what looks interesting and then ask
it to show you the best public transport to get back to
where you want to end up at the end of the day etc.

Yup, or just take you back to the car.

Yeah, tho many big citys are a complete pain in the
arse cars wise now so its often better to park well
out of the city and use public transport within it
or just leave the car where you are staying and
use public transport.

Yup.

Because I'm an old fart, our system allows me to
go anywhere I like on any mode of public transport
for just $2.50 a day and if the trip only costs $1, that
is all I get charged too. All done with the electronic
card everyone uses that you tap on and tap off with
at each stop where you get on or off.

We have similar systems. My (85 yr old) Mum got
on the wrong bus yesterday and did a bit of a loop
tour of the area but it was all free for her. ;-)

Leaves farting around with timetables etc for dead.

Again, 'only' if you have 'Data' on your phone.

But only costs peanuts for that.

Possibly.

No possibly about it here. I spent the entire day doing
that in Sydney and checking the timetables for the trip
home etc and it cost me peanuts data wise.

Over here it is most commonly linked to having a contract
and so will cost all the time if you are using it or not.

That is an option here, but I choose to pay for the data I use.

You can get add-ons to go with PAYG voice but it's all starting
to get messy complicated with an always on, 100% free GPS.

Its not messy or complicated. Just tell google
maps to save the map on your phone before
you start. Even the backpackers had free wifi
and there are plenty of others too.

My total phone bill per month is hardly ever more
than $10 for the month and that includes all the
calls to coordinate the garage sale openings and
the gps data because I am too lazy to use offline.
The phone calls normally cost 12c.

I could have unlimited calls and texts and GBs of
data for $50 a month but clearly that would be
very poor value when I don't normally spend $10.

I did the entire day that I had to waste in Sydney
for about $2 and that included all the navs, deciding
on a backpackers, booking it and paying for it and
all the public transport stuff as well.

Sweet.

Yes I can use a map and do so, but not for route navigation
anymore. It gets opened once I arrive at my destination, to
see what is around the area.

Absolutely. I wouldn't do any real 'off road' stuff by relying
on the GPS alone and find it reasonably interesting getting
an overview from a nice map.

I don't bother with maps at all anymore even tho I still have them.

Much prefer to use google earth etc now.

See above.

Costs a lot less than the maps and there is plenty of free wifi too.

Well, I rarely update the maps as unless you get a 'free
updates for life' deal (that many come with these days)
it's often cheaper to buy a new GPS with the latest maps
on (and they often give you one years updates for free etc).

I don't buy GPSs anymore, use the phone instead and
get a lot better result with the phone than the GPS,
particularly the satellite mode with google maps
and street view and real time measured traffic.

WiFi may not be available in the middle of a forest. ;-)

Doesn't need to be, you load the map into the phone
before you go there using your home wifi or the one
where you are staying etc.

Often our destination is a campsite in the back of
beyond with no voice coverage, let alone data.

Trivially fixable by downloading to the phone before you leave.

And using the phones built-in GPS hardware
(so it's *just* a GPS at that point).

No its not. It has the satellite view and street view etc.

There will always be satellite coverage (even if you
have to find a small clearing in the woods (though
less of an issue as the technology has improved)).

Yeah, never had to do that with the iphone.

I have with the earliest devices. Not so much these days.

Not at all these days in my experience. The phones even
interpolate when you are in underground tunnels etc.

Yeah, no one is saying you can't get about that way but (ironically)
no way is it as easy to be so self sufficient without. I think they
removed many of the road signs over here during the war to
confuse any invaders. Wouldn't be much point now of course. ;-)

They can and do stop those unspeakable
invaders from using the gps satellites now.

Quite.

When his car key broke he had to use mine to ring his
wife to get her to come into town with the spare car key.
And I had to dial the number too, he couldn't even do that.

And that's the thing. 'Of course' you can get
away with all sorts of stuff but just sometimes ...

Yeah, it would have been a hell of a lot less easy
if he had been out of town when the key broke,
although he would certainly have been able to
get someone to stop and use their phone.

So they 'get by' by poncing off the efforts and expenditure of others.
;-(

Only when the **** hits the fan.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 23:00:44 +0000, T i m wrote:



Yes, but a decent gps does so much more with routing around traffic
congestion and continuously telling you what time you will arrive etc.

Ah, and that's reminded me of another fantastic feature, the ETA! ;-)

We had to collect my Mum from Southampton the other day (~2 hrs away)
and she was meeting us at the Hovercraft terminal from the IOW. We
texted her as we left with the ETA and as we arrived at the Hoverport
we saw her Hovercraft coming across the Solent. By the time we had
parked up and walked up, she was walking out of the terminal. ;-)

You must have a very good satnav if it took you the Hovercraft
terminal after you asked for Southampton ;-)
Southampton hasn't had a Hovercraft terminal for many a year now
( though it was so noisy people may still be walking around deaf).
Perchance you went to Southsea?

GHarman

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:44:35 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Another advantage of a dedicated GPS is the fact that
it *isn't* on my phone, leaving it (and it's battery) free
for more important phone based tasks. ;-)

That's better fixed by powering it in the car
and having an external battery pack as well.

The only real advantage with a separate GPS is
that if one dies you can still use the other one
and even that is better done with two phones
which most have without doing anything unless
you are travelling alone.

Unless you try to operate your touch screen phone GPS

I've never bothered with a non touch screen GPS and
that is one of the reasons I changed to a touch screen
phone, kept getting ****ed off going back to the non
touch screen phone from the touch screen GPS.

with gloves on whilst it's clamped to the handlebars
of your motorbike in the pouring rain. ;-(

I'm not actually stupid enough to ride a motorbike
at all, in any weather wearing anything :-)

Nope, I'll (mostly) stick with a GPS for routing
and a phone for phoning thanks. ;-)

You're always free to dinosaur away any way you like.

On 02/02/16 22:38, T i m wrote:
Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I
need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

Me too, I just don't know which junction number is which. I have driven
London to Newbury often enough to know where M4 J13 is, but that's about
it. The general problem is that if you don't have some idea both where
you are and where the places mentioned on signposts are, relative to
each other and where you are, then said signposts can be very unhelpful.





--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:55:43 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote

I figure satnav saves its cost in wasted fuel easily.
And again several times over in wasted time.

And doesn't cost a penny when you already have a decent smartphone.

Yes, if you have a physical satnav in your phone (my S2 / S4
have) as I've yet to see any completely free data connections?

There is plenty of free wifi around now.

Not in the woods and trails near us there aren't. ;-)

So you get a clue and load what you need
into the phone before you get there.

And with offline maps you don't need any data
connection except to update the offline map.

So you are using the onboard GPS at that point?

Yep.

So it's a GPS, not a network data driven thing?

Yep.

But then I wouldn't want to hold my phone out in the rain ...

Works fine in a waterproof case.

or operate it wearing gloves

You can in fact get gloves that work fine.

Work fine against tarmac at 70 mph *and* work small
touchscreen easily? Yes, I know you can get 'gloves' that
allow you to use touchscreens but they are still not as easy
to use wearing gloves, especially when on the move (say
on a cycle on a trail). Trust me, I've tried it all. ;-)

Clearly haven't tried a decent headset and voice commands.
Leaves any GPS on the handlebars for dead.

or run it flat when I could really use a phone ... ;-(

Much better fixed with an external battery.

Much better to carry something that I can use in the rain without
any extra cases (that might restrict access or visibility of the GPS)

They don't.

and with my gloves and have a phone that can be used just as
a phone and not have to carry *just* a battery that is only a battery
(that I also have btw and carry for just the phone as a phone!).

Much better to have just the one device that does it all.

But I don't expect you to understand the use of a GPS on
a motorbike in the cold and rain, you live in Australia. ;-)

Plenty of cold and rain here and I have enough of a clue
to use voice control instead my fingers in that situation too.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 11:00:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:01:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/02/16 22:15, Hilo Black wrote:


"Chris French" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 02/02/16 18:16, John Rumm wrote:


You realise google maps *is* a satnav these days?


When it tells me where I am, I will agree,

Until then it isn't

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

And does by default every time you use it.

But he doesn't have a phone that can run it.

Sigh. Google maps may be an adjunct to a GPS application, but it isn't
of itself any substitute for the GPS hardware that is designed to tell
everyone else where you are.

No, please tell me he doesn't actually think all GPS units are
trackers!!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phone+tracking

Not even possible with a well designed smartphone
that stops anyone snooping on anything you don't
want them to.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:21:46 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 22:38, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:30:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 20:42, Chris French wrote:
snip

Google maps on my phone will tell me were I am

...and does turn by turn navigation on mine as well

As does mine but daughters (later) Garmin Nuvi also describers the
name or designation of the road you are supposed to turn into and has
better 'lane control', handy for use on motorways (when some of the
road signs may not be pertinent to your immediate need to take the
left or right lane).

google speaks the names of roads as well, as do later versions of Tomtom
I believe...

Makes sense. Yes., I know Google maps do that because we thought it
was a bit quiet because we hadn't actually tapped 'Go'. Then she
wouldn't shutup (as it was all local stuff). ;-)

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I

Indeed, I would much prefer that to the radio announcements that say
things like "M25 northbound" etc!

Yup, ridiculous. Thinking on though I wondered how many people don't
have the mental map of the country in their heads and who may not even
realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

And plenty more don't have a clue which way is north etc.

I use to say that stuff when coordinating the garage sale opening times,
'Its at the northern end of xxxx street' Now I say it's at the town end etc.

need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

I'd like to add I think TomTom v Garmin is nearly as bad as Windows V
Linux or Cats V Dogs. I've never liked the TomTom marketing and
everyone I been with who has one seems to be beholden to what *it*
wants to do. One, and older guy got frustrated with his TomTom and
asked me what I'd got and went a bought the same (the Garmin Nuvi).
Much to my surprise, he found the Garmin 'brilliant' (his words) and
gave me the TomTom to 'play with'. I think it's still on the shelf
where I put it. ;-(

Can't say I am that partisan... I have an old Tomtom (GO 700) that works
well - nice clear voice, works as a handfree for a phone as well. Plus
it has maps for all of western europe built in - so no dependence on a
data connection.

Ok.

On the downside its not got any real time updates on
traffic, like the current models. Not used a Garmin in the car (although
have used their eTrex for walking etc).

Yeah, I guess you really have to compare like with like (model / age /
price spec wise) but from my experiences so far, more seem to complain
that their TomTom sent them the wrong way than Garmin users did (only
a tiny survey of course). [1]

Maybe TomTom attracts the less technical user (their marketing / TV
ads seem to support that) and so maybe their 'typical' users doesn't
investigate the routing settings or somesuch?

I love my old Garmin GPS V as it has a fully programmable display. Say
it can display 100 different fields (like altitude, dusk / dawn, ETA,
current speed, max speed etc) and you can choose what combination you
want on each display screen.

As these units have become more common / cheaper they have also been
simplified (from my POV) to be more 'user friendly' and therefore some
of the things I might find useful (like current lat / long) hidden, if
available at all. ;-(

Yeah, that has certainly happened with the tomtoms, the low
end ones are much more limited than the top of the range models.

I guess that's also why I generally / still refer to such things
(especially the portable jobbies) as 'GPS units', rather than 'Sat
Nav' as my early ones didn't have any autorouting type navigation,
just a generic 'Go that way' pointer. ;-)

And then there is turn by turn and lane guidance
etc and anticipated arrival time etc and live traffic.

[1] It used to amaze me how many people simply don't update anything
... from GPS maps, system firmware (inc PC BIOSs) or their PC OS's
(when it's often the first thing I do when given some stuff to play with).

It doesn't amaze me given the stupid prices tomtom charged.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though?

They do it by monitoring where the tomtoms are using
the associated smartphone or the SIM in the tomtom.
So if someone using a tomtom goes down that road,
they see it get delayed. Obviously there needs to be
more than one seen to do that for it to be other than
just stopping to perve at someone streaking etc or
Dennis out and about looking like a silly old fart
booking someone for exceeding the speed limit.

I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know
a lorry was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

By seeing the effect on tomtoms going past.

Nothing like as good as the google system which keeps track of
mobile phones moving on the roads using data from the mobile
phone bases which can see all phones in their area.

I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

Yes, me too, but only when on major routes and that's not necessarily
the same thing as being informed about a delay that has only been
there for 30 seconds or five minutes, specifically if not on a
monitored route or it not impacting a monitored route?

The only way I could see that sort of thing working would be if the
GPS was able to compare your actual speed with the theoretical and
reported_by_others_recently speed for that route and upload that
discrepancy to some network and then update all the other units
(like you can with some speed camera warning devices).

That's close to how it works.

I mean, if a particular bit of 30 mph road was only / ever 15 mph
because a restriction made it half duplex, it's quite possible that
information could be collated by many peoples track logs

Yes.

but that wouldn't be so likely to predict a broken down lorry making it a
little bit worse?

It clearly does for a while if enough tomtoms pass it slower than normally.

Unless it can (and I'm not saying it can't etc) ... if it was linked
into a real live traffic network using two way data from many
GPS units (or phones)? shrug

And that's what happens.

In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 02/02/16 22:38, T i m wrote:
Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or 'Anticlockwise'
on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may be very aware that I
need to go clockwise but don't know if I want Heathrow or Luton, when
neither are on the M25! ;-(

Me too, I just don't know which junction number is which. I have driven
London to Newbury often enough to know where M4 J13 is, but that's about
it. The general problem is that if you don't have some idea both where
you are and where the places mentioned on signposts are, relative to
each other and where you are, then said signposts can be very unhelpful.

Actually, Heathrow Terminal 5 has its own junction on the M25. (14a)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 14:23:27 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 05:34:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 12:24:29 UTC, T i m wrote:

realise the M25 was a ring? There are also some people who have to ask
which way to undo a tap or a nut. ;-)

I get that somtimes it's due to mild dyslexia I think.

Interesting. I was watching a program on TV the other day that
suggested that some people can't 'visualise' something when given a
description by someone else.

There was an article about a women who couldn;t recognise her two kids
faces (no the kids weren't two faced)


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...e-own-children



But don't water and gas tapes turn in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure mate? Most gas taps I've come across are actually
stopcocks so.

I was thinking of those on ovens and gas rings and how attaching nuts to
those meant they had to go on the other way around.

'on' could be a quarter turn clockwise which would indeed
be opposite a std water tap. goes and checks something. Yes, the
cold ceramic tap on our kitchen mixer is anticlockwise for on whereas
the hot is clockwise. ;-)

Did you also check with a digital watch :-)


And thens theres' what postion you're turning it from.

That rarely bothers me ... same with running RC models where the left
/ right are reversed when the model is coming towards you. I must
always consider such things from the perspective of being at the
optimum position to it (so in a RC buggy that would be behind / inside
it). ;-)

yes you can get the hane of it, I was trying to solder using a microscope
as you move the tip up under the scope it moves down so everything is
reversed except up and down as in hieght.


If it's under a desk and you're leaning over and upside down it gets
tricky.

I've never considered it so (I never have to think about it for a
second etc) so it must just be one of those things that you can either
do instinctively or not.

I think that's it, soem can draw what they see others like me it' sjust a
mess of lines maybe we can be trained I'm not sure.


Like I never had any issues differentiating
my left and right or port and starboard etc. 'Right' is just that way
(to the right) and I can't see (but accept it is the case of course)
why everyone else can't just to so equally?

Left and right is a strange concept, try imagingign explaing it to an
alien on another planet how would you describe what left and right were
same as up and down. Even Rod in Aus knows what up is but if we were both
to point to up we'd bother be pointing pretty much in the opposite
directions.



I wonder if that is also linked to a 'sense of direction'? We know
birds and some other creatures can use the earths magnetic fields to
give them a 'bearing' so I wonder if some people can also tap into
that, even if only subconsciously?

yes there's a tribe in Austrailian that doesn;t use the mthods other
humans do for directions. Star trek use a similar system of co-ordinates.
Those AUSies also say that their future is behind them and teh past in
front.
if you think about it it makes sense.
You can not see yuor future so it must be behind, and as for teh past well
we know(can see) our past as it's in front. Seems logical if you think
about it.



If we are visiting a new to us town, walk round and round and end up
in a cafe, when we leave to go back to the car I'll tend to start off
in the right direction whereas the Mrs will go in what appears to be a
completely arbitrary direction (possibly linked to the direction we
came in from, if we are lucky). ;-)

I can be liek that and my mum when going into a shop and coming out never
could work out which direction along the street she was going, she also
could visual cutting a round cake into 3, she just couldn't get the Y
shape anywhere near correct propotionally, wasn't bad with cutting it in 4
though.


But didn't they print an upside down map of England that was supposed
to be for 'women'?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upside-Down-.../dp/0952930404

intresting not sure hwo useful it is or why.


On my GPS's I always set them to 'North up' because that way I am
seeing it as I would if looking at a map and so can retain *my*
bearings.

that's the defualt I guess not sure hwo those in the southern hem. do it.

Same way.


If I come across some new road or traffic layout that isn't
covered on the GPS I can still navigate manually because I was aware
what direction I was heading in the first place. ;-)

Apparently women are better at remebring such things from
their POV rather than from a map POV. soemthing to do with
them having a slightly wider field of view than men.

Mine is in fact much wider than anyone I know.

The thing that still gets me is when joining the likes of the M25 are
the choices on the signs have no bearing on my destination. Now I know
it can't be like a tube map where it tells you on each direction
choice, all the stops in order but an abbreviated version might be
better than two places I'm not interested in or even directly on the
M25!

I think daughters later Garmin GPS has better lane guidance and it
announces the name of the road you are turning into (that can be quite
reassuring) so I might try hers on the next trip and may even treat
myself to one (or it's current replacement). That way I get some
better features and the latest maps. ;-)

Not drivign means I don;t have any of these devices not even an
iPhone so dont; really comment on how useful they are to me.

They are fine for walking too.

I can still use a A-Z map although some things are obviously out of date.
especailly the list of strip pubs in the local area listed at the back.
:-)

That's one area where a modern smartphone leaves everything else
for dead, just ask its what is near you and see full reviews and all.

That's what I did when I needed a backpackers after having
missed the train home. Book online after looking at the
pictures of the rooms and prices etc, use the walking
navigation to walk there, see what is around public
transport wise to get to where you want to while
away the day till the train next day etc. All for about
$2 in data for doing that stuff all day. Peanuts in the
cost of the backpackers.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:09:00 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 13:00:54 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 03/02/2016 11:33, T i m wrote:


As will the Garmin ... just that I have found it has chosen the
quickest that should be the quickest, if it wasn't for the fact that
there are known 'restrictions' (like a narrow bit of road that makes
it half duplex) that slow people up, but not sufficiently to become
worthy of a congestion notice.

Tomtoms would probably have noticed if someone has parked a lorry for
five minutes and caused a 30 second delay.

How though? I know there are traffic monitoring cameras on some main
routs (typically on motorways etc) but how would anyone know a lorry
was caught up down some side street used as a rat run?

Tomtoms traffic is a two way process, the sat nav tells tomtom how fast
you are going

To clarify:

The TomTom GPS unit(?) knows how fast it is going by triangulation and
timing of the satellite signals. Or did you add that the GPS unit
actually
transmits it's speed and location up to somewhere ('TomTom HQ')

Yep, that's what happens.

somehow?

Using the mobile phone system. Some use a paired phone,
some have a sim in the tomtom and do it that way.

Is that what / all you have said so far

Yes.

or have I missed something?

No.

so if another tomtom user experiences a delay they can
inform others.

How?

Using the mobile phone system. Doesn't
mean you pay for that traffic tho.

I assume its more than one as it coud cause problems
if you just decided to stop and make a call or similar.

Quite.

I have been notified of 30 second delays while out and about.

Yes, me too, but only when on major routes and that's not necessarily
the same thing as being informed about a delay that has only been
there for 30 seconds or five minutes, specifically if not on a
monitored route or it not impacting a monitored route?

The only way I could see that sort of thing working would be if the
GPS was able to compare your actual speed with the theoretical and
reported_by_others_recently speed for that route and upload that
discrepancy to some network and then update all the other units (like
you can with some speed camera warning devices).

I mean, if a particular bit of 30 mph road was only / ever 15 mph
because a restriction made it half duplex, it's quite possible that
information could be collated by many peoples track logs but that
wouldn't be so likely to predict a broken down lorry making it a
little bit worse?

Unless it can (and I'm not saying it can't etc) ... if it was linked
into a real live traffic network using two way data from many GPS
units (or phones)? shrug


Yes, see above.

I'd need it explaining further before seeing above would help. ;-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
If you don't have a smart phone, a tablet, or a surface and you own a
car, and you can read a map, its amazing what you don't need.

Well quite. I just got a new phone for £25. It has a 2Mpx camera, but
only because I couldn't get one without.

I'm on PAYG, but bought a phone with a decent
camera. That get more use than the phone. ;-)

That's the way I used to be before we started coordinating
the garage/yard sale opening times by phone.

And not just because it's a decent camera either,
much more convenient to take a quick photo than
to take notes most of the time. And when you can't
read the microscopic lettering on a nanosim, very
convenient to take a photo and zoom in and read
it that way. Same with id plates on appliances,
much easier to poke the phone where it can see
it and take a photo than it is to lie on the floor
where you can read it etc with stuff too big to
lift up easily like a fridge etc.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 21:35:23 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

snip

Even my earliest Garmin had the option of different vehicles and when
you select say 'Truck' it adjusted both the typical speeds but also
any width restrictions etc.

I doubt if it did.

I don't still have my actual first, the GPS III+ but I do still have
the V so I'll check it out for you.

It my have avoided single track roads but did it know about height
restrictions,

I didn't actually mention them.

load limits, etc.?

Or them, I just said width restrictions (and a typical speed profile).

Check this out:

https://www.manualowl.com/m/Garmin/G.../Manual/229180

p58. '... Some roads have vehicle based restrictions associated with
them (e.g. no commercial truck traffic, no pedestrians or no bicycles)
.. By selecting vehicle type you can avoid being routed where you
cannot legally go ... '

So, just a plain "Sorry Tim" will do dennis. ;-)


One wrote our old family car off then drove off (thanks). ;-(

It's possible they may only have the more basic maps for countries
outside their own, or simply haven't ever updated them.

Or are cheapskates that don't use the right tool.

See above re dead ends. ;-)

Go on tomtom and report it as an error.

Not for me to do is it, although I have a TomTom and think I've
registered it so maybe I could?

Cheers, T i m