On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 12:39:09 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It happens that whisky-dave formulated :
I have the same problem with sheep but apparently sheep can recognise
50 faces least

I have trouble recognising faces, at least until I have seen them a few
times. I particularly struggle with female faces, due to makeup. Makeup
can make them look so very different to my eyes.

I once walked straight past a new girlfriend, because I had never seen
her before wearing makeup and he hair done.

BTDTGTTS.

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 11:28:46 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:06:51 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"dennis@home" wrote in message
raweb.com...
On 03/02/2016 20:43, Rod Speed wrote:
dennis@home wrote
T i m wrote

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local
knowledge would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've
been taken on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I
know all the little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.

But not as well as google.maps does.

Google can't track phones in the UK, its illegal.

It isnt tracking phones.

AFAYK.

You *can* track phones (they do). You can't track a GPS *receiver*.

Indeed. I use an app to track SWMBO. But the 'target' has to consent.

T i m wrote
Blanco wrote
charles wrote
Chris French wrote
T i m wrote
charles wrote
DJC wrote
T i m wrote

Is it only me who would be happy with 'Clockwise' or
'Anticlockwise' on roads leading onto the likes of the M25? I may
be very aware that I need to go clockwise but don't know if I want
Heathrow or Luton, when neither are on the M25! ;-(

Me too, I just don't know which junction number is which. I have
driven London to Newbury often enough to know where M4 J13 is,
but that's about it. The general problem is that if you don't have
some
idea both where you are and where the places mentioned on signposts
are, relative to each other and where you are, then said signposts
can be very unhelpful.

Actually, Heathrow Terminal 5 has its own junction on the M25. (14a)

Ah, ok, then that makes a bit more sense then when joining
the M25 from the A3 (J10?) and trying to go clockwise.

But why 'Heathrow'? Why not 'Clockwise' as at least clock or anticlock
are universal no matter where you join the M25 (or the Nth Circ or any
other ring road) and from the inside or outside?

Maybe they could signpost clearly the current junction number on the
way in as one thing most people may know is the junction number they
intend leaving the motorway at? If it's higher than the one you are
entering on you want to go clockwise (as long as you know where the
thing starts and stops I guess). ;-)

Thus speaks someone who lives to the west of the M25 :-) That doesn't
work so well if if you are joining on the east, nearer the start/end
of
the M25. If I join at junc 27 (m11) and I want to go to j3 (m20) then
i
don't want to go anticlockwise.

Of course, you could always look at a map before you start out.

Makes a lot more sense to use the satnav in the phone.

Ok? Not for me walking, cycling or on a motorbike
in the rain it wouldn't [1]. Or on a boat

It would if you had enough of a clue to use a proper
headset and voice commands and a waterproof case.

or if I want to use my phone at the same
time as looking at my routing screen ...

Works fine on the phone.

or when my wife wants to use my
(contract) phone whilst I'm driving.

Most have enough of a clue to have an appropriate
phone and plan for each person and at most swap
phones on the odd occasion where that makes sense.

I have a smartphone, I have access to Google Maps and
the Navmii GPS app, I prefer to use a dedicated GPS.

Because you don't even have half a clue.

Same with the map book, A-Zs and paper maps.

That way you can be sure its always up to date

Updated, not necessarily up_to_date,

Fraid so. In spades with stuff like road works etc.

or any more up_to_date than a dedicated
GPS with free lifetime map updates.

Wrong again. Google gets updated MUCH
more often that any dedicated GPS ever is.

And not that in the 10+ years of using a dedicated GPS (and
sometimes with fairly old maps) I've never made it to my destination?

But with more farting around than is needed if you had
used a system which is updated much more often and
which has real time measured traffic congestion data too.

and will be routed around big traffic
snarls due to crashes etc too.

As would I using my dedicated GPS?

Not as often.

And lets not try claiming that you would pay more for the
data when using a smartphone than a dedicated GPS either.
The dedicated GPS will cost a lot more to buy than you will
ever spend on data for navigating using a smartphone unless
you are completely stupid about who you pay for data.

Cheers, T i m

[1] I bought a second hand 6 month old smartphone off the Internet
and two days later it died. I sent it back to the original owner to in
turn took it back to the shop who sent it off for testing. It came back
saying it had suffered some water damage (not in my care it hadn't).

And someone with even half a clue can put it in a
waterproof case if they actually use it in that situation.

I don't bother myself because I have enough of a clue to
leave it in my pocket when its raining and use a decent
headset even when it isnt raining because that is a lot more
convenient when walking or riding a bike or in a boat.

The more worrying thing were the exclusions from liability from
damage from moisture and the potential causes of moisture damage
(outside not dropping your phone in a puddle or down the bog).

All trivially avoided by using a waterproof
case if you actually are that clumsy.

Do not use your phone whilst cooking in a steamy environment.

Works fine.

Do not use your phone whilst exercising.

Works fine.

Do not use your phone in the rain.

Works fine if you have enough of a clue to have a
waterproof case if you are actually stupid enough
to 'live' somewhere where it rains all the time.

So, do I want to risk +400 quids worth of
phone or 80 quids worth of dedicated GPS ...

No risk whatever if you have enough of a
clue to use a waterproof case for MUCH
less than what the dedicated GPS costs you.

that does all I want

What you want is irrelevant to what others want.

better than any phone could?

You're lying thru your teeth now.

Getting desperate, obviously.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I'm pretty sure none of them had anything like that.
They all looked like pretty small / std units.

Yeah, bet they are too cheap and just use the cheapest
low end tomtom they can find in the shops etc.

Probably ... shops in Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Italy and Wales (so far).
;-)

Yeah, they don't get paid that well and the operations they
work for operate on paper thin margins so what they provide
for their drivers is usually the cheapest **** they can find too.

But like I said, a dead end is a dead end even to a car so ...

Yeah, but that may be due to the other factor, no
one has bothered to tell tomtom about a map error

I checked that earlier on the TomTom site and it looks correct.

or its quite close to another street that they should be
using and they turn into yours in error because the street
names mean nothing to the truck driver who isnt a local

That could easily be the case ... they come off the motorway and
fairly soon onto a smallish roundabout (where it's all joining roads
and hardly any 'land' in-between) and the wrong exit takes them to us.
;-(

Yeah, most systems tell you which exit to use by number,
'third exit' etc. Forget what the tomtom does now and it
might have changed since my tomtom anyway.

and the street sign isnt easy to read at night from a truck

There are actually 3 signs between the roundabout and their
last alternative exit but they don't really make it obvious that their
intended destination isn't available that way. Think 'No access to
the shops' when they thought they were going to a supermarket.

They should be saying it's a no thru road with yours.
That's what ours do. Tho not always when there are
a few streets involved you can only come out the
way you went in. Most of those do have a proper
turning circle at the end but those aren't any use
with a semi, B double or an HGV. Tho its surprising
what they manage with some of the supermarket
loading docks here with the worst of them.

or they don't bother to check the street signs on decent
trips because there are too many to bother with.

Well, considering the distance most of them have traveled and they
are only maybe 1/2 a male away from their intended destination by
the time they get to us I think they have done pretty well.

Yeah, but likely just doing what they are told by the turn by turn
commands rather than bothering to check all the time how much
sense a particular instruction makes, particularly in a place like
yours with lots of older smaller roads that were never designed
for semis and HGVs to use in the first place.

Don't you have a proper no thru road sign ? We do here.

No, because it's not actually a no through road, that's the problem.
And there are legitimate reasons for attics to be down here (like the
transporter that took our car away). ;-(

I didn't mean not suitable for those, I meant that you can only get
out the same way you came in. Not that that is necessarily impossible
for the loading dock of quite a few places so even if they did have
a sign that said that, it wouldn't necessarily mean that most truck
drivers would automatically think that its likely to be the wrong turn.

And since it's a turn off the roundabout, even if you do decide
that it may well not be where you want to go, hardly anyone
will actually back out into the roundabout in a truck instead
of going into it and hoping you can turn around in there and
come back onto the roundabout the correct way and take the
correct exit.

The problem is that at one point in time (even during my
time here) there was a road leading to where they want to
go but it hasn't been a through road as such (only access
to a few houses) ever and now it's very much cut off.

It would be interesting to see what an older tomtom thinks
about it. Given the outrageous prices that tomtom used to
charge for map updates, they could well be using old maps.

I only updated ours because I could
steal pirate copies of the updated maps.

Cost more than a replacement low end tomtom.

I did contact the Council, regarding the signs and how inappropriate
they may be but they just fobbed me off with the 'they conform to
the regs'. Whilst they might do that, they are obviously missed or
meaningless to some and it's obvious to all (but them apparently)
how it could be worded differently to be more poignant to all.

The next time I'm out there in the dark and rain, helping some 40'
artic turn round, I'll see if I can actually poll them on the signs.
;-)

I asked 100 drivers who said ... ;-)

Trouble is most of them said in some woggy language and made
rather rude comments about how you english do your roads |-(

Best not video them with your non waterproof smartphone.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

and I did try what the mobile homers I know had
before I got one myself. None of them ever had
a Garmin and almost all of them had something,
normally a tomtom or a navman.

I wonder how much of that was down to marketing?

I don't believe it has anything to do with marketing,
just that garmin was never that common with satnavs
for cars and other road vehicles.

Maybe where you live but it was about
the only offering when I bought mine?

Not when they bought theirs and that's what matters.

I've seen people go for something because the
marketing suggested it was 'easy', even when
the competitors offering were equally easy.

Sure, but with the mobile homers
its much more about word of mouth.

Yes, but they don't make up the vast
majority of the population do they?

We were discussing why the mobile homers
had what they had when I was borrowing their
dedicated GPSs to decide which I preferred.

They are much more social than most and sit
around comparing notes on the hardware they
use like the mobile homes, satnavs, solar panels,
generators, dunny dump sites, places to visit etc
in the evenings particularly.

I'm sure they do, like caravanners or people living
on boats ... still not yer average Joe though eh?

We weren't discussing the average Joe.

FWIW, the GPS's I bought were very much used /
recommended by the motorcycle community so
not dissimilar to your concept.

We don't get that here, none of the motorbikes
I know and I do know quite a few, uses a Garmin.

In fact the one I know best who almost killed himself
just a couple of weeks ago borrowed my dedicated
GPSs to see what he wanted to buy himself. More
than half of them are into boats too, not always
small boats either, the biggest stays in the water
all the time unless its having its keel redone etc.

The other one who almost killed himself was coming
back from a bit meet of bikers, one of whom did kill
himself on it, made the national news.

Some of my mates used to routinely migrate to where
its warm every winter and spend the entire winter sitting
around in a mobile home park playing gin rummy,
getting ****ed and furiously swatting the midges.

;-)

They also have meets a few times a year when hundreds
of them all show up at some place by prior arrangement
and spend days there doing all sorts of IMO silly stuff.

Ok.

One of them who has just died made smart arsed remarks
about a big meet they were having in the rain when we
took him over to one of the adjacent towns to get his
latest wooden leg fitted. We all laughed about that
when his burial happened in the worst rain we have
had for quite a while.

I went for the tomtom myself basically because the
navman still had discrete buttons and the tomtom
was entirely touch screen and I could see that that was
the way to go. Navman did eventually go that way too.

With (protective) gloves on discrete buttons are still the best way to
go.

Voice commands and a proper headset leave that for dead.

So you keep saying. Loads more stuff to go
wrong / charge / connect and far less flexible.

Bull****.

And my GPS (this is more waterproof than your phone)

Not than my phone in a waterproof case.

doesn't have voice recognition.

Because you are a dinosaur to stupid too use your phone.

Touch screens can be ok when the buttons are big enough but aren't
so good to use on the move as there is nothing to 'centre' the finger
or keep it in place (so you end up swiping rather than pressing). I know
this to be true from using the (touch screen) Nuvi on my bicycle /
tandem.

But you havent tried the much better approach
of voice commands and a proper headset.

Of course I have, on my phone (didn't need the
headset as it was in the car) but you are forgetting

Nope.

I don't want to have my phone tied up doing
something I have something better available to do.

It isnt tied up at all. And its impossible
to forget that repeated stupidity of yours.

The sooner get that ... ;-)

Try that again in english.

Some else I talk to on usenet also loves his Garmins,
also a pom, but an immigrant one to here in his case.
He migrated using the £10 pom system back in the
60s, long before anyone had any GPSs.

He's also into small boats.

I was watching a program about Plymouth earlier. The
only electronic device they showed a close up of was a
Garmin (it could have been a GPS or echo sounder etc).

Just another dud of a TV program.

Well, I think there are country by country differences that can make
the need for owning a GPS more relevant. Like I live on top of one
of the biggest city's in the world and because most of it is 'old', it
has loads of small / complicated roads and back streets (and no old
towns with the American 'grid system'). My GPS sometimes sounds
like a rapper, trying to get all the turn instructions out quick enough!

Yeah, the Garmins can be late with the turn instructions too.

I've only had that after just switching it on.

That's not what others have said.

The timings of the instructions are linked to
the speed so *always* earlier than you need.

That's not what others have said. And you can see them saying
that in groups.google if you can work out how to drive that.

Compare that with somewhere like The States or Aus where
I could imagine hearing 'In 2000 miles, turn right'. ;-) [1]

There are only a few places like that.

Including where you live though.

Nope, nowhere near where I live. I meant that there are
only a tiny handful of places like that even in Australia.

I think they were also the first to make the waterproof
models (boats, motorcycling and hiking).

Likely.

And again, it's ok for alternative manufacturers coming up with
this stuff 'now', but the likes of Garmin were the only people out
there for some time and often were the first to offer suitable and
specialised products (like waterproof units for walking and
glove friendly_waterproof units for motorcycling).

But the others did the much better approach of voice
commands and bluetooth headsets well before Garmin.

I'll have to take your word for that as it's not
been something I've ever been interested in.

More fool you. It works much better than a dedicated
waterproof GPS with physical buttons on the motorbike
handlebars and is vastly safer to boot.

It's like the Linux fanboys getting all excited about the Steam game
platform being available on Linux, only 10 years behind Windows. ;-)

In your case with voice commands.

Yers, *my case* according to you, not the equipment. However, it's
*my choice* and I'll use what suits *me* and my roll best (thanks).

It doesn't actually, you're just dinosauring along as always.

I guess, although even pre 'Free Map updates for life (of that unit
g), many of the Garmin units allowed you to update the map to
the current map for free, if one had been released reasonably
recently.

They all have that now.

Well, I've seen 'many', I'm not sure I'd go as far as all. ;-)

Yeah, I did go a bit far there. The very cheap no name stuff
doesn't have any map updates at all, you just buy another.

We bought one. ;-(

I never did but did have a look at one a mate bought trying
to see if it was a ripoff of one of the name brands that I
could update using the pirate maps for all the name brands
I had access to. It wasn't, tho it probably did use one of
the maps from one of those, there wasn't even any way
to even see the map files it used to check it that way.

Not clear how many of those sell anymore tho now that
even the cheapest smartphones do a lot better so for the
same price you get a phone and a camera and a browser
as well as the satnav and always up to date maps.

'Updated', not 'up_to_date'.

You can keep chanting that silly mantra till you
are blue in the face if you like, changes nothing.

There is no guarantee your maps are any more up
to date than any other 'connected' GPS system.

There is in fact because google particularly updates
MUCH more often than any dedicated GPS ever does.

To be 'connected' costs,

Not if you update using wifi at home or using
a plan that has excess data you never use.

either in the initial purchase price
or in other connection charges.

None of either with any decent phone.

But still plenty of them have utterly silly prices for their
software only version for smartphones. Like $80 or more.

Yeah.

It would have to offer a hell of a lot more over
google.maps to be worth paying anything like
that for it and they in fact offer a lot less,

So, say I was going on a motorcycle tour of the UK and wasn't going
to have any data connection on the trip. Could I download all the maps
required to the same level of detail as most GPS's before I set off?

Makes more sense to get what you need when you pass a wifi.

That isn't an answer to my question.

Yes it is.

I'm giving you a real world example of the situation
(as I don't have WiFi accounts with any external service).

I'm not talking about wifi accounts, I am talking about free wifi.

nothing like as good real time traffic

Again, I'm not sure of the value of that (in the UK).

I am. Traffic congestion is a real problem in quite a bit of that.

Not been a problem yet?

Depends on what you call a problem.
Clearly better avoided when it happens.

And obviously depends on how often you do that too.

I have it (free for life) on my Garmin Nuvi

Nothing like the real time measured traffic that google does.

It's real time measured traffic over the RDS
service and possibly using the same sources?

No it does not. Google does it differently.

and it works but I'm not sure how often I see the
suggestion of traffic and then do anything about it?

You only need to use it a few times for it to be useful.

I've used it loads of times and it's not yet been anything like 'useful'.

I meant that you only have to do something different because
of the traffic congestion a few times to be useful when its free.

I have avoided more traffic issues by looking at the motorway
as I drive over it or avoiding known trouble spots at the
wrong time of day than I have with *any* traffic service.

Useless when the **** has hit the fan due to a major accident etc.

Or how often you can do anything about it (like when something
happens on a motorway and you are right behind it).

Much more often by definition you won't actually be involved.

Quite.

Coming back from a 100 mile trip the other day it was indicating
traffic (red line on our route) but gave the estimated delays as
being no greater than 5 minutes. It really wasn't worth trying
to avoid it as it would have probably taken longer.

And on the long run into Sydney running very late, it was clear
from the google ETA that I needed to hoon in at a hell of a rate
to have any hope of catching the train, with the Nokia telling me
that I would arrive in plenty of time keeping to the speed limit.
Google was right, Nokia was wrong.

Then Nokia solution is cr*p? Not all systems are created equal.

You don't know that the Garmin would do any better.

Not everyone has data or wants to use a smartphone as a GPS.

Yes, there will always be plenty of stupid dinosaurs around.

Plenty refuse to have anything to do with mobile
phones or mobile phones with cameras too even
when the camera is quite literally free.

and no street view at all

I've never used street view when out and
about because I can see that with my eyes. ;-)

You use it when setting up the nav so that when you
arrive there you have a pretty good idea of where to
go and where to park etc before you get there.

Like I said, I can use my eyes (and brain). ;-)

No you can't when you have never been there
and don't have the luxury of checking it out
when you are in traffic when you arrive and
can't just get directed to where you have
decided is a good place to park etc.

I used it to see where I needed to go on foot
once I had been dropped outside the main
train station in central Sydney because I had
never actually used it because I normally fly.

Sure, I've also used Street View on my PC to check things out,
including places I'm driving to and I could do so on my phone
if I wanted when out and about. I haven't needed to yet?

Your problem.

Couldn't make much sense of the internal map of the
very big station that has all of the country lines and all
of the suburban lines and light rail and buses.

Yup, some people don't find them straightforward.

I do, it's a very poor map for what isnt the simplest
layout either, particularly with how best to move
from the bus and light rail stops outside the
station to the country heavy rail platforms inside.

Didn't worry about it because we were
supposed to arrive there with an hour in hand and
I assumed that I would have plenty of time to
wander around and see what was what when
I got there. I didn't even know if you were
supposed to check in for the country trains
like you do with the airlines or not. You do
book in advance and get an electronic ticket.

Ok.

When I jumped out of the car at the lights
right at the time the train was due to leave,
I was a hell of a long way from the platform,
didn't have a ****ing clue where to go,
managed to come across one of those
loonys who we used to keep in locked
wards when I asked people which was
the way to the country platforms, with
her quite literally screaming at me at
the top of her voice.

Ok?

Eventually ended up on the right platform
5 mins after the train had left.

Not good.

Yeah, particularly as the trains are
only daily back to here most days.

and no satellite view at all either.

I'm generally in a car, not a hot air balloon g so I'm
not sure what advantage that would be either (to me)?

It is when you are camping/walking when you want to
see where is a good place to camp which isnt one of the
nice and tidy places where someone mows the grass etc.

That's where we camp thanks. We are just looking
for a change, not to go back in time 10,000 years.

Nothing even remotely like 10K years. Not even 100.

[1] The furthest ahead I've heard our GPS announce as about 75 miles.

I don't recall google maps ever doing that but I don't
normally have it on all the time, usually turn it off and
just turn it on again when I am coming up to somewhere
which can get a bit hard to remember the detail,

Helps to keep the phone battery good eh? ;-)

I was talking about the tomtom there.

like when the highway goes thru a particular town in a
complicated way or there is a turn off from one of the national
highways that has been shifted a lot recently so isnt engraved
in my mind yet because I haven't used the new one much yet.

Ok.

And the major national highway which has been completely
redone so it doesn't have any of the towns on it at all now
tho that is just for the exits you need to use to get petrol etc.

Oooerr.

We (daughter pillion) broke down on the motorbike whilst
on a motorcycling trip (clutch splines stripped) and had to
be relayed the 175 miles home. We sat my Garmin portable
GPS next to the Garmin GPS that was built into the AA truck
and the driver gave the remote for his GPS to our daughter
to see if she could setup out home as the destination.

Must be pretty thick if he needs a course
to use a GPS and still can't use it.

I'm not sure about thick, just some people have an aptitude for things
that others don't. Plus I think he was just being kind to our daughter.

She had input the destination before he had started telling
her how (he was laughing how they were sent on a course to
learn how to use the GPS's g) and it was interesting to see
the two devices mirroring each other exactly (speed, ETA etc).

It would be more surprising if they didn't IMO being the same brand.

Well quite but different models, chips and software possibly though.
It's the same as seeing your car speedo is fairly accurate when
compared against the GPS. It *should* be good, just nice to prove it.

It was interesting to watch the difference between the satnav
that comes with Nokia Lumias that doesn't have its own name
and google maps. Google left it for dead on ETA because of its
much better live measured traffic data.

So you said.

Bet the Garmin is no better than the Nokia.

Once on the motorway both GPS's went quiet and
then after some time, his closely followed by mine
said 'Straight ahead for 75 miles' (or some such). ;-)

Didn't get that in the run in to Sydney on the Hume with
google or the nokia. I did comment that a few more 'you're
still on the right route' would have been better, but presumably
it would have started howling if I had gone where I shouldn't
have even if just to get petrol.

Potentially, yes.

We did stop for petrol but I cant remember if we asked
it to tell us which exit to use for that, we probably did.

He was a good driver and recovery guy, ex Army Royal Engineers.

But clearly a tecknostupid if he needed a course
to use a GPS like the Garmin and still couldn't use it.

See above. The AA would have sent him on
the same course they send all their people,

And if he wasn't a tecknostupid he would have been
able to use something with as good a UI as a Garmin
even if he had slept thru the course.

probably have to legally.

No they don't.

On 05/02/16 00:39, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 11:28:46 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:06:51 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 03/02/2016 20:43, Rod Speed wrote:
dennis@home wrote
T i m wrote

I'd agree for unpredictable congestion but argue that local
knowledge would probably win over any GPS congestion displays. I've
been taken on routes by the GPS I wouldn't typically take because I
know all the little side options etc.

My tomtom knows the traffic congestion around here better than I do.

But not as well as google.maps does.

Google can't track phones in the UK, its illegal.

It isnt tracking phones.

AFAYK.

You *can* track phones (they do). You can't track a GPS *receiver*.

Indeed. I use an app to track SWMBO. But the 'target' has to consent.

some have built in consent


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 5 Feb 2016 00:35:29 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 12:34:46 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

T i m wrote on 03/02/2016 :
Hmm, that's the thing, I can't imagine *not* being able to explain it
to an alien (even). Right is just the label to that side / direction,
just as is forward or up. How come even those who can't remember their
left from right, don't generally have issues with the other dimensions?

Left and right are more or less symmetrical, the others are not. I am
one who has always struggled or at least taken a few seconds to work it
out - left from right.

I pick a pen up and if I think about it, I am lost. The same with knife
and fork. I am though, mostly ambidextrous. I was born left handed, but
at school I was one who was forced to right handedness, by tieing my
left hand behind my back, so now I write right handed, but my hand
writing is terrible.

Someone who I was teaching to drive had a problem distinguishing left
from right, so I put a large L and R on the back of his hands :')

If I have SWMBO navigating (haven't for a while!) it's dreadful. She gets
right and left mixed up.

Again, I find it interesting (from a human observation pov). I can't
remember being schooled particularly on my left and right but can't
remember having any issues with it either (and that's not a boast or
slur against Mrs E of course, we are what we are etc).

The other thing I often pick up on (find interesting) is the
traditional way we tend to say things, like 'I don't know my left from
right' (rather than 'I don't know my right from left' (as you typed it
that way round above)).

My Mrs always says 'brush and dustpan' whereas I believe the norm is
'dustpan and brush'. The latter sounds as 'wrong' to me as saying
'chips and fish'?

Neither way is any more right or wrong than the other of course, it's
just I believe there are conventional ways we typically say things (or
how we hear them in our area?) and wonder how the people who say them
the 'other' way round came to do so (other than when it's cultural or
location etc).


We mostly cured it by getting her to say 'my side' or 'your side'.

Whilst I understand people can't get it, I don't get it ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 5 Feb 2016 00:39:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

snip

You *can* track phones (they do). You can't track a GPS *receiver*.

Indeed. I use an app to track SWMBO. But the 'target' has to consent.

What about the apps the parents use to track their kids / phones. Do
they (the kids) also have to give consent or not because they are
'minors' do you know?

Cheers, T i m

T i m Wrote in message:
On 5 Feb 2016 00:39:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

snip

You *can* track phones (they do). You can't track a GPS *receiver*.

Indeed. I use an app to track SWMBO. But the 'target' has to consent.

What about the apps the parents use to track their kids / phones. Do
they (the kids) also have to give consent or not because they are
'minors' do you know?


Well, I guess technically, who ever has access to the phone to
operate it has to give consent.

I doubt the !as has anything much to say about whether or not the
child gets to give consent. If they don't they don't get to use
their phone :-)





--
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
The other day when installing an extractor fan


There has been some excellent thread drift on this one :-)



--
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 11:03:49 +0000, T i m wrote:

On 5 Feb 2016 00:39:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

snip

You *can* track phones (they do). You can't track a GPS *receiver*.

Indeed. I use an app to track SWMBO. But the 'target' has to consent.

What about the apps the parents use to track their kids / phones. Do
they (the kids) also have to give consent or not because they are
'minors' do you know?

Cheers, T i m

I imagine so. But only by the parent installing and locking the app!

In article , Harry
Bloomfield writes
T i m wrote on 03/02/2016 :
Hmm, that's the thing, I can't imagine *not* being able to explain it
to an alien (even). Right is just the label to that side / direction,
just as is forward or up. How come even those who can't remember their
left from right, don't generally have issues with the other
dimensions?

Left and right are more or less symmetrical, the others are not. I am
one who has always struggled or at least taken a few seconds to work it
out - left from right.

I pick a pen up and if I think about it, I am lost. The same with knife
and fork. I am though, mostly ambidextrous. I was born left handed, but
at school I was one who was forced to right handedness, by tieing my
left hand behind my back, so now I write right handed, but my hand
writing is terrible.

Someone who I was teaching to drive had a problem distinguishing left
from right, so I put a large L and R on the back of his hands :')

Try training as sheepdog and working out clockwise(left) and
anticlockwise (right) from the other side of the sheep and then
translating that into comebye and away in the space of two seconds
otherwise you've lost it and your sheep are gone. I do use your trick
with A and C on the back of my hands.
--
bert

On 02/02/2016 23:07, T i m wrote:
However, overall, 'local knowledge is only generally available
'locally' g or any other location you might have driven regularly at
several times of the day.

The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Andy

On 04/02/2016 09:43, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:10:14 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Ask them if its a tomtom truck satnav.

Is there such a thing?

http://business.tomtom.com/en_us/pro...ro/7250-truck/
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/drive/truck/

I'm pretty sure none of them had anything like that. They all looked
like pretty small / std units.

snip

But like I said, a dead end is a dead end even to a car so ...

Yes, but a 6'6" width limit is of interest.

Andy

On 04/02/2016 14:33, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:55:46 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:


Its constantly checking for quicker routes and will
indicate if there is one.
Is that in the event of a tectonic plate shift, the snow melting or
the tide going out?;-)

New/cleared traffic jams. I guess snow melt might do it!

Andy

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:29:26 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 04/02/2016 09:43, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:10:14 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Ask them if its a tomtom truck satnav.

Is there such a thing?

http://business.tomtom.com/en_us/pro...ro/7250-truck/
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/drive/truck/

I'm pretty sure none of them had anything like that. They all looked
like pretty small / std units.

snip

But like I said, a dead end is a dead end even to a car so ...

Yes, but a 6'6" width limit is of interest.

Unfortunately they can't use width limits to protect us because they
still need to get the dustcarts and any other legitimate HGV traffic
down here, but I bet the drivers themselves would prefer a
'truck-centric' GPS unit for all the other / genuine instances.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:34:01 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 04/02/2016 14:33, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:55:46 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:


Its constantly checking for quicker routes and will
indicate if there is one.
Is that in the event of a tectonic plate shift, the snow melting or
the tide going out?;-)

New/cleared traffic jams.

A jam cleared from a faster route might do it yes. Traffic cleared
from the same route wouldn't be a 'quicker route' but just 'the right
speed again'. ;-)

I guess snow melt might do it!

Yup, or the ferry back online, the ice-road re-frozen or the bridge
re-opened. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 02/02/2016 23:07, T i m wrote:
However, overall, 'local knowledge is only generally available
'locally' g or any other location you might have driven regularly at
several times of the day.

The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

Cheers, T i m

On 04/02/16 00:27, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 21:57:03 +0000, DJC wrote:


The general problem is that if you don't have some idea both where
you are and where the places mentioned on signposts are, relative to
each other and where you are, then said signposts can be very unhelpful.

Indeed. That's why the GPS was such a godsend to me. It seems to me
that many of the road signs you are given when entering something like
the M25 are just the places the bloke making the signs knew were in
that rough direction. ;-(

Sort of. I did read some years ago that the list of official
destinations to be used on signs had been revised as many had been there
by tradition from the days of the stagecoaches and nobody went there
anymore.


I can't remember what the signs said when joining the M25 from the A3
and trying to go clockwise but it might have said 'Heathrow' and I
think that's on the M3 (M4?), not on the M25?

Depends, T5 on M25, the other junctions are on M4


--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 04/02/16 13:11, T i m wrote:

Oh, ok, I only mentioned that because my first (autorouting) GPS, the
Garmin GPS V had very basic mapping for the whole world built in then
you added more detailed maps for the areas you were specifically
interested in. I think mine was 'Base World Map + Europe (down to
house level) so if you drove 'off the detailed map' (and I have) you
could end up with just the basic stuff?

Very basic, my GPS60 (now over ten years old) has some basic routing on
the base world map. Once in France the suggested route to a village less
than ten miles away involved going in the opposite direction to the only
road on the map and then a route of something like a 100 miles on the
only roads it knows to get a little closer.





--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 04/02/2016 18:10, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
whisky-dave brought next idea :
for me you could describe up or down to an alien as being with or
against gravity as down is always going with gravity and up is always
against it.

Not aure how you could do such a thing with left or right.

+1

Its even not understood how left and right are encoded in DNA...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/02/2016 13:33, Chris French wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
The other day when installing an extractor fan


There has been some excellent thread drift on this one :-)

Yup funny how some seem to run and run...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 04/02/16 00:27, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 21:57:03 +0000, DJC wrote:


The general problem is that if you don't have some idea both where you
are and where the places mentioned on signposts are, relative to each
other and where you are, then said signposts can be very unhelpful.

Indeed. That's why the GPS was such a godsend to me. It seems to me
that many of the road signs you are given when entering something like
the M25 are just the places the bloke making the signs knew were in
that rough direction. ;-(

Sort of. I did read some years ago that the list of official
destinations to be used on signs had been revised as many had been there
by tradition from the days of the stagecoaches and nobody went there
anymore.


I can't remember what the signs said when joining the M25 from the A3
and trying to go clockwise but it might have said 'Heathrow' and I
think that's on the M3 (M4?), not on the M25?

Depends, T5 on M25, the other junctions are on M4

T4 is also M25 served. It's only T1, 2 & 3 (the older bit) are served from
the M4.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 22:50:17 +0000, DJC wrote:

On 04/02/16 13:11, T i m wrote:

Oh, ok, I only mentioned that because my first (autorouting) GPS, the
Garmin GPS V had very basic mapping for the whole world built in then
you added more detailed maps for the areas you were specifically
interested in. I think mine was 'Base World Map + Europe (down to
house level) so if you drove 'off the detailed map' (and I have) you
could end up with just the basic stuff?

Very basic, my GPS60 (now over ten years old) has some basic routing on
the base world map. Once in France the suggested route to a village less
than ten miles away involved going in the opposite direction to the only
road on the map and then a route of something like a 100 miles on the
only roads it knows to get a little closer.

;-)

Yeah, that was what I understood from expanding the World Map on the
Garmin PC program, Mapsource.

I was looking after one of the BMW Motorcycle club ladies Yahoo group
as she went round the world on her motorbike in 2004 (no Google maps
then were there g). She would send me tracklog updates when she got
Internet access and I'd update my Mapsource and post the image online.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 22:42:47 +0000, DJC wrote:

On 04/02/16 00:27, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 21:57:03 +0000, DJC wrote:


The general problem is that if you don't have some idea both where
you are and where the places mentioned on signposts are, relative to
each other and where you are, then said signposts can be very unhelpful.

Indeed. That's why the GPS was such a godsend to me. It seems to me
that many of the road signs you are given when entering something like
the M25 are just the places the bloke making the signs knew were in
that rough direction. ;-(

Sort of. I did read some years ago that the list of official
destinations to be used on signs had been revised as many had been there
by tradition from the days of the stagecoaches and nobody went there
anymore.

That sounds about right (still)! ;-)


I can't remember what the signs said when joining the M25 from the A3
and trying to go clockwise but it might have said 'Heathrow' and I
think that's on the M3 (M4?), not on the M25?

Depends, T5 on M25, the other junctions are on M4

So I have since been informed (adding to the confusion of course).

Cheers, T i m

On 05/02/2016 22:26, T i m wrote:
Unfortunately they can't use width limits to protect us because they
still need to get the dustcarts and any other legitimate HGV traffic
down here

A width limit can be signs only.

Andy

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I started
- because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Or perhaps it had a headache that day

Andy

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 05/02/2016 22:26, T i m wrote:
Unfortunately they can't use width limits to protect us because they
still need to get the dustcarts and any other legitimate HGV traffic
down here

A width limit can be signs only.

and there can always be exceptions. opposite us is a road with a 4t weight
limit - except for vehicles requiring access to premises on that road.

Andy

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 22:06:35 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:26, T i m wrote:
Unfortunately they can't use width limits to protect us because they
still need to get the dustcarts and any other legitimate HGV traffic
down here

A width limit can be signs only.

Interesting point, however, seeing as they ignore the three signs
suggesting there is no access to their intended destination, and given
the width restriction isn't physical ... ? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 22:21:19 +0000 (GMT), charles
wrote:

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 05/02/2016 22:26, T i m wrote:
Unfortunately they can't use width limits to protect us because they
still need to get the dustcarts and any other legitimate HGV traffic
down here

A width limit can be signs only.

and there can always be exceptions. opposite us is a road with a 4t weight
limit - except for vehicles requiring access to premises on that road.

Hmm, again, that could work as long as the sign was pictorial and
(probably) common Euro wide as they currently ignore three 'written'
(in English only) signs.

The problem would be being able to differentiate from a (usually)
'foreign HGV who shouldn't be there from a (typically), say a car
transporter (of the same size, collecting private cars) that needs to
be?

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 22:08:29 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I started
- because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Ok.

Or perhaps it had a headache that day


We are even more fallible. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:10:19 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:49:45 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

snip


I forgot that last time I used it, the zip on the weedy bag it was in
broke, and I had been organized enough to order a better bag for it!

Funny isn't it, how we get used to something being a certain way and
then don't recognise any changes.

I can't find orange pliers if I know they've always been yellow. And if someone else asks me to find their pliers in their toolbox, I need to know the colour.

--
Why do divorces cost so much? They're worth it. *

On 08/02/16 09:12, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive
into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I
started - because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Luxury.

There's a report in the Times today about a Yank tourist in Iceland who
mis-typed the street-name where his hotel was, after picking up the
hire car at the airport. 600 miles later, he gets to the place with the
road that he actually typed.

For the next leg of his trip he did the same again - another lengthy
detour. He was then reported to be leaving the island - and as the
Times put it: "it isn't known whether he found the airport".

Course it could be argued that he's just a twerp.

GIGO. Of course I suppose that you could, with a map, pick up the wrong
one and try to drive to Langley, Virginia instead of Langley,
Buckinghamshire.

Darwin in action?


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/02/16 09:12, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive
into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I
started - because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Luxury.

There's a report in the Times today about a Yank tourist in Iceland who
mis-typed the street-name where his hotel was, after picking up the
hire car at the airport. 600 miles later, he gets to the place with the
road that he actually typed.

For the next leg of his trip he did the same again - another lengthy
detour. He was then reported to be leaving the island - and as the
Times put it: "it isn't known whether he found the airport".

Course it could be argued that he's just a twerp.

GIGO. Of course I suppose that you could, with a map, pick up the wrong
one and try to drive to Langley, Virginia instead of Langley,
Buckinghamshire.

Darwin in action?


with theearly Google Earth, if you tried to go from Times Squared, NY, to
Paris, France, you were directed to the docks and then told to swim.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/02/16 09:12, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive
into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I
started - because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Luxury.

There's a report in the Times today about a Yank tourist in Iceland who
mis-typed the street-name where his hotel was, after picking up the
hire car at the airport. 600 miles later, he gets to the place with the
road that he actually typed.

For the next leg of his trip he did the same again - another lengthy
detour. He was then reported to be leaving the island - and as the
Times put it: "it isn't known whether he found the airport".

Course it could be argued that he's just a twerp.

GIGO. Of course I suppose that you could, with a map, pick up the wrong
one and try to drive to Langley, Virginia instead of Langley,
Buckinghamshire.

In the 70s I made an over-the-counter-at-the-airport purchase of a plane
ticket from London to Atlantic City. When I'd paid for it and went to
put it in my pocket, I took a look and found that I was destined for
Atlanta, Georgia.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/02/16 17:47, charles wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/02/16 17:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 01/02/2016 16:06, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher


Nowadays, I take a photo of the car (with reg plate).

yebbut I keep my camera in the car..

use your phone!


If you have a recent smart phone you can use the GPS to mark the
location too.

If you don't have a smart phone, a tablet, or a surface and you own a
car, and you can read a map, its amazing what you don't need.

a map won't necessarily help you find your car in a car park

Never said it did, it just extends the range of technology you don't need.

I had an argument with a technophile friend. Full of himself and his
gadgets 'a satnav will always tell you how to get there better than a map'

How? mine does not know some one way streets and it keeps telling me to
do Uturns when it is illegal, tries to send me up streets with no access
etc etc etc.


'Possibly, but it doesn't help me decide where I want to go, does it?'

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 09:12:56 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:33, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:21:57 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:
The main reason I bought a satnav was for my daily commute. I drive into
a small city, and the traffic is a nightmare. One week I was given a
different route every day.

Sweet. And did it seem to pan out?

usually, but it's not infallible.

One day it took me on a five mile detour that ended back where I started
- because new jams appeared and old ones cleared.

Luxury.

There's a report in the Times today about a Yank tourist in Iceland who
mis-typed the street-name where his hotel was, after picking up the
hire car at the airport. 600 miles later, he gets to the place with the
road that he actually typed.

For the next leg of his trip he did the same again - another lengthy
detour. He was then reported to be leaving the island - and as the
Times put it: "it isn't known whether he found the airport".

This the point about using technology as an aid and not doing so
blindly.

As I've said I keep my GPS set on 'North up' because I understand maps
and still can no matter which way I'm actually traveling. (It goes
into 'Track up' when it navigates you at junctions in any case). As it
happens, a GPS is better than a paper map there because if you did
prefer to use 'Track up' (where the world spins around your constant
'North' orientation) the place names still stay the right way up. ;-)

So, if I set a destination and it displays the planned route, I check
to see if it's taking me in the direction I know I'm supposed to be
going in, the distance and ETA . If it doesn't look right I may have
selected the wrong 'Recently used' or postcode so I re-check before
further committing.

Course it could be argued that he's just a twerp.

I guess if you didn't know the country or area you could be fooled
into thinking the destination 600 miles away was the one that was
supposed to be only 60, especially if you haven't glanced at the map
previously or don't try to make sense of stuff like that.

Cheers, T i m

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .

There's a report in the Times today about a Yank tourist in Iceland who
mis-typed the street-name where his hotel was, after picking up the
hire car at the airport. 600 miles later, he gets to the place with the
road that he actually typed.

There was a report the other year of a chauffeur-driven limousine taking
some people to a football match at Stamford Bridge stadium (Fulham's ground
in London). The chauffeur's satnav directed him to the town of Stamford
Bridge in East Yorkshire. And the mistake was only discovered when he got
there and the football ground was nowhere in sight.

I'm not sure whose fault it was. Should the chauffeur have noticed when he
programmed the satnav that it was a long way from where he was starting, and
queried with his passengers? Should the passengers have thought "We've been
on the A1 for a couple of hours - this doesn't seem right" and got him to
turn round?

When I use a satnav I always first glance at the intended route and the
distance/time estimates to make sure that they are sensible. Whether it's a
long journey or a fairly local one, I would never just set off; I'm often
curious about "I wonder which way it will take me". In other words, I have a
fairly good idea of how to get to my destination but use the satnav to make
sure I don't miss any crucial junctions and as a time/distance countdown
("ah, I'm now 10 miles / 10 minutes from journey's end").

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:07:17 -0000, "NY" wrote:

snip

When I use a satnav I always first glance at the intended route and the
distance/time estimates to make sure that they are sensible. Whether it's a
long journey or a fairly local one, I would never just set off; I'm often
curious about "I wonder which way it will take me". In other words, I have a
fairly good idea of how to get to my destination but use the satnav to make
sure I don't miss any crucial junctions and as a time/distance countdown
("ah, I'm now 10 miles / 10 minutes from journey's end").

Yup and I think the old fashioned term for all of that is 'Having your
wits about you'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 20:38:17 +1100, F Murtz
wrote:
snip

How? mine does not know some one way streets

It should. Have you updated the maps recently?

and it keeps telling me to
do Uturns when it is illegal,

I think 'U turns' are illegal on many roads (and junctions) in the
UK(?) so whilst I could turn them off on my GPS, I don't, translating
'Make a U turn now' into 'turn round asap' and doing so safely and at
my own discretion (or not, sometime you just head in the right general
direction again and it autoroutes, removing the need of the U turn in
the first place).

tries to send me up streets with no access
etc etc etc.

Not such a good GPS (or map version) I'd say. That or it's set on
'pedestrian'. ;-)

Mine have never done that, unless it was down to not being up_to_date
(and that would then apply to any out_of_date map or written
instruction).

Cheers, T i m