On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:57:43 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 20:29:58 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


No-one yet, but I've worked in support of very many who have been
victims though no fault of their own.

Yeah right. You simply don't deal with dodgy characters. It's not rocket science.

It's not that simple.

Works for me. Maybe I'm just not as naive as you.

The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

--
Is it possible to brush your teeth without wiggling your ass?

In message , at 21:12:44 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Maybe I'm just not as naive as you.

The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

Keep digging.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 21:41:21 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 21:12:44 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Maybe I'm just not as naive as you.

The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

Keep digging.

I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why you're so utterly pathetic that you get ripped off.

--
PNEUMONOULTRAMICROSCOPICSILICOVOLCANOCONIOSIS (45 letters, a lung disease caused by breathing in particles of siliceous volcanic dust) is the longest word in the English language, beating TETRAMETHYLDIAMINOBENZHYDRYLPHOSPHINOUS ACID, HEPATICOCHOLANGIOCHOLECYSTENTEROSTOMIES, FORMALDEHYDETETRAMETHYLAMIDOFLUORIMUM, and DIMETHYLAMIDOPHENYLDIMETHYLPYRAZOLONE.

On 02/11/2013 11:23, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:09:14 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
My credit cards are set to minimum payment so I don't get frights.

I said charge card, not credit card.

I've no idea what that is.

You seem to be remarkably ill-informed, and unable to use Google.

I can't be arsed. A debit card does me fine. Why complicate matters?

Because a charge card is a useful buffer/delay between the transaction
and the ability to empty my bank account. Not only does it permit me to
gather the funds required, it also allows me to complain if there's an
error or fraud, *before* it's me who is out of pocket.

Isn't it like a credit card but for one particular shop?

In my case it's like a classic Amex, paid off each month, although it's
from Mastercard.

Sound like a credit card to me.

No, a credit card does not require you to pay off the whole balance
every month. They aren't advancing me credit, more a case of delaying
when I have to pay, by up to a month. Traditionally they delay when the
trader gets the money as well - hence the reluctance of many of them to
accept Amex.

Amex charge more AFAIK.

I use a credit card in the same way you use a charge card - DD set up to
pay the lot off monthly. What extra does the charge card give you?

(the PP said he's set his up to the minimum payment to avoid scares.
That's the opposite of what I want, because if you do that and forget to
pay it off, you start paying interest)

On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 01:53:37 -0000, Clive George wrote:

On 02/11/2013 11:23, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:09:14 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


I've no idea what that is.

You seem to be remarkably ill-informed, and unable to use Google.

I can't be arsed. A debit card does me fine. Why complicate matters?

Because a charge card is a useful buffer/delay between the transaction
and the ability to empty my bank account. Not only does it permit me to
gather the funds required, it also allows me to complain if there's an
error or fraud, *before* it's me who is out of pocket.

Isn't it like a credit card but for one particular shop?

In my case it's like a classic Amex, paid off each month, although it's
from Mastercard.

Sound like a credit card to me.

No, a credit card does not require you to pay off the whole balance
every month. They aren't advancing me credit, more a case of delaying
when I have to pay, by up to a month. Traditionally they delay when the
trader gets the money as well - hence the reluctance of many of them to
accept Amex.

Amex charge more AFAIK.

I use a credit card in the same way you use a charge card - DD set up to
pay the lot off monthly. What extra does the charge card give you?

(the PP said he's set his up to the minimum payment to avoid scares.
That's the opposite of what I want, because if you do that and forget to
pay it off, you start paying interest)

Forget to? I almost never can afford to pay it off.

--
If you believe in telepathy, raise my hand.

In message , at 21:45:43 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Maybe I'm just not as naive as you.

The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

Keep digging.

I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why you're so utterly pathetic that you get ripped off.

I haven't been.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
01:53:37 on Sun, 3 Nov 2013, Clive George
remarked:
In my case it's like a classic Amex, paid off each month, although it's
from Mastercard.

Sound like a credit card to me.

No, a credit card does not require you to pay off the whole balance
every month. They aren't advancing me credit, more a case of delaying
when I have to pay, by up to a month. Traditionally they delay when the
trader gets the money as well - hence the reluctance of many of them to
accept Amex.

Amex charge more AFAIK.

It's widely understood that they charge more commission, but for many
traders the cash-flow is probably more important.

I use a credit card in the same way you use a charge card - DD set up
to pay the lot off monthly. What extra does the charge card give you?

It's part of a bundle of services other than lending me money. Although
they rot away over time (like the £250 cheque guarantee card part of the
bundle) so I'm wondering if I really need it any more.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 08:16:33 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 21:45:43 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

Keep digging.

I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why you're so utterly pathetic that you get ripped off.

I haven't been.

Then you're like me. Not stupid enough to get ripped off.

--
"Hi, It's a great day and I'm out enjoying it right now. I hope you are too. The thought for the day is 'Share the love.'" BEEP.
"Um, yeah, hello? This is the VD clinic calling. Your test results are back and you're positive. Stop sharing the love."

In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 3 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
The opposite, actually. ie you are naive enough to think you are
invulnerable.

History shows I am. I'm not stupid enough to deal with the wrong people.

Keep digging.

I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why you're so utterly pathetic that you get ripped off.

I haven't been.

Then you're like me. Not stupid enough to get ripped off.

I'm a bit more cautious than average, as I have a professional interest
in scams and frauds on the Internet (as an investigator, not a
perpetrator!) Many of the ways that people can become victims are
nothing to do with stupidity, if they were it would be so much easier to
prevent.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 08:35:01 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 3 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


Keep digging.

I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why you're so utterly pathetic that you get ripped off.

I haven't been.

Then you're like me. Not stupid enough to get ripped off.

I'm a bit more cautious than average, as I have a professional interest
in scams and frauds on the Internet (as an investigator, not a
perpetrator!) Many of the ways that people can become victims are
nothing to do with stupidity, if they were it would be so much easier to
prevent.

Oh I don't know. I avoid doing a lot of things that could end up getting me frauded. And most people are stupid.

--
Cobra: 2 conjoined bras.

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:36:23 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:31:56 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


Because a charge card is a useful buffer/delay between the
transaction
and the ability to empty my bank account.

So you're still borrowing money, which is not a good idea.

It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

No more so than my phone bill.

That's a small amount and cannot be helped unless you get a coin
operated telephone.

Why assume my charge card isn't a small amount too?

Because if it was there wouldn't be much point in bothering with one.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Oops, something comes up and you haven't got the money to pay it off.

My budgeting is better than that.

Most people's isn't. I for example don't budget at all.

Why am I not surprised.

It seems a wasted effort. A budget is just a method of worrying before
you spend money, as well as afterwards.

If you do it right, its method of not worrying at all.





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:28:17 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:36:23 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:31:56 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:



It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

Asking for trouble. Spending what you haven't got yet.

No more so than my phone bill.

That's a small amount and cannot be helped unless you get a coin
operated telephone.

Why assume my charge card isn't a small amount too?

Because if it was there wouldn't be much point in bothering with one.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card. I used to do that with my debit card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.

My budgeting is better than that.

Most people's isn't. I for example don't budget at all.

Why am I not surprised.

It seems a wasted effort. A budget is just a method of worrying before
you spend money, as well as afterwards.

If you do it right, its method of not worrying at all.

Easier to just spend the money you already have, then all you need to do is glance at the balance every so often.

--
Does a pedometer detect child molesters?

On 03/11/2013 01:53, Clive George wrote:

Amex charge more AFAIK.

I use a credit card in the same way you use a charge card - DD set up to
pay the lot off monthly. What extra does the charge card give you?

Amex used to claim the "no fixed spending limit" as one of their USPs.
Most charge cards are basically indistinguishable (at least from the
merchant's point of view) from a CC used in the way you describe though.

So they do all the normal visa/mastercard stuff, and have joint and
mutual liability in any transaction.

(the PP said he's set his up to the minimum payment to avoid scares.
That's the opposite of what I want, because if you do that and forget to
pay it off, you start paying interest)

At least a minimum payment DD will avoid late payment fees though.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/11/2013 21:10, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:48:19 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
The different one is like your phone bill, where your DD is
different
every month depending on how many calls you make.

And my energy company, repeat ENERGY COMPANY, does that (as well as my
phone company; I pay the water company six monthly in arrears by
cheque).

Surely that gives you uneven payments, as most people get their
salary every month.

I'm self employed. Most other outgoings vary from month to month, so why
is energy special?

Because two zeros then a triple is a big variation.

But I'm making a positive cashflow in the two zero months, which I can
carry forward to the third month (when I pay all three months in arrears).

He does not understand budgeting remember ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:59:35 on Fri, 1 Nov
2013, Gefreiter Krueger remarked:

So they removed the whole point of direct debit, that you pay the same
during colder months.

I think you mean "the whole point of a budget account" (which you
happen to pay by DD.

I pay by DD, but quarterly in arrears based on meter readings.

Even energy companies seem confused by the difference.

I pay monthly in arrears by DD, which seems to be the cheapest method.
They adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance.

That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/11/2013 15:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/11/13 10:56, John Rumm wrote:


It tends to go wrong when there is a big year on year change in degree
days[1] as there was last year and the year before where we moved from a
year that was 10% warmer than average to one that was 11% colder. Thus
creating a big swing in demand. You also upset the system if you make
changes to your usage for any reason (patterns of use, changes to
insulation, boiler etc)


This year right now electricl consumption is almost 10GW less than the
same time last year.

Yup, can well believe that...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , at 15:33:28 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card. I used to do that with my debit card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.

There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit". Companies are therefore reluctant to expose themselves to
giving employees a potentially multi-million blank cheque to carry
around. So they arrange for a debit card which has a sensible limit (eg
perhaps £5k) like a credit card would, that allows to employee to buy
things that they need in any one month, but not to completely empty the
bank account.

Amex has built an entire empire upon this concept, so don't knock it!

ps The Amex catchphrase used to be "no *preset* spending limit", so
there was a limit, but they set it after you had the card and your usage
pattern was established. A very clever bit of smoke and mirrors.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
15:37:41 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013, John Rumm
remarked:
Amex charge more AFAIK.

I use a credit card in the same way you use a charge card - DD set up to
pay the lot off monthly. What extra does the charge card give you?

Amex used to claim the "no fixed spending limit" as one of their USPs.

Later changed to "no preset spending limit".

However, like an "indefinite" US Visa (which means "we don't yet know
when we'll cancel it", rather than "for ever") all that "no fixed limit"
means is "we'll alter the limit up and down depending on your spending
pattern".
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:39:42 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 01/11/2013 21:10, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:48:19 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


Surely that gives you uneven payments, as most people get their
salary every month.

I'm self employed. Most other outgoings vary from month to month, so why
is energy special?

Because two zeros then a triple is a big variation.

But I'm making a positive cashflow in the two zero months, which I can
carry forward to the third month (when I pay all three months in arrears).

He does not understand budgeting remember ;-)

I can't be bothered with it.

--
How many potheads does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to hold the bulb against the socket, and the other to smoke up until the room starts spinning.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:41:23 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:59:35 on Fri, 1 Nov
2013, Gefreiter Krueger remarked:

So they removed the whole point of direct debit, that you pay the same
during colder months.

I think you mean "the whole point of a budget account" (which you
happen to pay by DD.

I pay by DD, but quarterly in arrears based on meter readings.

Even energy companies seem confused by the difference.

I pay monthly in arrears by DD, which seems to be the cheapest method.
They adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance.

That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.

Of course it's in arrears. He's paying after he used it.

--
Prostration - the act of exposing your genitalia to your god.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:44:56 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 15:33:28 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card. I used to do that with my debit card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.

There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit".

Why on earth not? All the company has to do is have a seperate current account with a small amount in it.

Or do what my last place of work did, they got a credit card with a limit they liked, and paid it off fully at the end of each month.

Companies are therefore reluctant to expose themselves to
giving employees a potentially multi-million blank cheque to carry
around. So they arrange for a debit card which has a sensible limit (eg
perhaps £5k) like a credit card would, that allows to employee to buy
things that they need in any one month, but not to completely empty the
bank account.

Amex has built an entire empire upon this concept, so don't knock it!

Nobody accepts them. They ought to curl up and die.

ps The Amex catchphrase used to be "no *preset* spending limit", so
there was a limit, but they set it after you had the card and your usage
pattern was established. A very clever bit of smoke and mirrors.

--
Scientists recently conducted a marijuana taste test.
Nobody seems to be able to remember the results.

On 06/11/2013 15:33, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:28:17 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:36:23 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:31:56 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:



It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

Asking for trouble. Spending what you haven't got yet.

You don't know much about business do you...

Incomes are frequently generated at the completion and delivery of
products or services to customers. These don't usually happen on nice
monthly schedules. Now you could say to your staff and suppliers: "I am
not going to pay you for the next four months, but don't worry, the
money is coming, you won't loose out", however there is a chance they
may be less than pleased with that idea. Hence many businesses use short
term borrowing to allow normal activity to continue during the parts of
the year where the companies money is occupied generating income as work
in progress.

So long as its properly budgeted and accounted for, its far from "asking
for trouble". In most cases, its the lack of available credit that is
asking for trouble.


No more so than my phone bill.

That's a small amount and cannot be helped unless you get a coin
operated telephone.

Why assume my charge card isn't a small amount too?

Because if it was there wouldn't be much point in bothering with one.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card.

No, because debit cards don't have joint and several liability. Using
debit cards for online or "card holder not present" transactions is
inherently more risky. They also result is one transaction on your
account for every spending event on the card. Keep in mind that business
pay "per transaction" fees on their accounts. So a monthly credit /
charge card reduces many transactions into one on the account.

A further advantage for small businesses is that they often allow time
to invoice a client such that you keep cash flow positive.

I used to do that with my debit
card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.

My budgeting is better than that.

Most people's isn't. I for example don't budget at all.

Why am I not surprised.

It seems a wasted effort. A budget is just a method of worrying before
you spend money, as well as afterwards.

If you do it right, its method of not worrying at all.

Easier to just spend the money you already have, then all you need to do
is glance at the balance every so often.

Now you are getting it...

And they way you know what money you already have is?

Well done, a budget.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , at 16:15:50 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card. I used to do that with my debit card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large
amount.

There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit".

Why on earth not? All the company has to do is have a seperate current account with a small amount in it.

One each for every employee? What the charge card companies are offering
is the equivalent of that, outsourced without all the admin issues.

Or do what my last place of work did, they got a credit card with a limit they liked, and paid it off fully at the end of each month.

There used to be some issues, tax perhaps, (not sure if they've been
resolved) about issuing credit cards to employees that are paid off by
the employer.

Amex has built an entire empire upon this concept, so don't knock it!

Nobody accepts them. They ought to curl up and die.

Oh, so you are knocking a very successful business model. You'd
presumably be surprised how many places you'd be wanting to charge
business expenses do in fact accept them.

--
Roland Perry

On 06/11/2013 15:44, Roland Perry wrote:

There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit". Companies are therefore reluctant to expose themselves to
giving employees a potentially multi-million blank cheque to carry
around.

Some of the less common UK banks now do this kind of thing - Citybank
are certainly one. Its the way Samsung hand out their "cash back"
rewards. They send you a debit card with a fixed and one time only limit
on it. The issue multiple chards liked to one account setup for the
purpose.

Quite a nifty ruse from their point of view since it means they only pay
out the cash back in cases where it is actually used, and its also
difficult for the recipient to actually spend all of it.

Amex has built an entire empire upon this concept, so don't knock it!

ps The Amex catchphrase used to be "no *preset* spending limit", so
there was a limit, but they set it after you had the card and your usage
pattern was established. A very clever bit of smoke and mirrors.

Indeed. Although perhaps it offers more flexibility than the corporate
CCs that usually need a personal guarantee in place from the directors
for the full credit limit.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:41:51 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/11/2013 15:33, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:28:17 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:36:23 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:31:56 on Sat, 2 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:



It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

Asking for trouble. Spending what you haven't got yet.

You don't know much about business do you...

Incomes are frequently generated at the completion and delivery of
products or services to customers. These don't usually happen on nice
monthly schedules. Now you could say to your staff and suppliers: "I am
not going to pay you for the next four months, but don't worry, the
money is coming, you won't loose out", however there is a chance they
may be less than pleased with that idea. Hence many businesses use short
term borrowing to allow normal activity to continue during the parts of
the year where the companies money is occupied generating income as work
in progress.

So long as its properly budgeted and accounted for, its far from "asking
for trouble". In most cases, its the lack of available credit that is
asking for trouble.

And something goes wrong and the customer doesn't pay up. Oops.

Why assume my charge card isn't a small amount too?

Because if it was there wouldn't be much point in bothering with one.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card.

No, because debit cards don't have joint and several liability. Using
debit cards for online or "card holder not present" transactions is
inherently more risky.

I've never had a problem. Banks are usually quite helpful.

They also result is one transaction on your
account for every spending event on the card.

What? That happens with anything.

Keep in mind that business
pay "per transaction" fees on their accounts. So a monthly credit /
charge card reduces many transactions into one on the account.

Huh?

A further advantage for small businesses is that they often allow time
to invoice a client such that you keep cash flow positive.

I used to do that with my debit
card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.



Why am I not surprised.

It seems a wasted effort. A budget is just a method of worrying before
you spend money, as well as afterwards.

If you do it right, its method of not worrying at all.

Easier to just spend the money you already have, then all you need to do
is glance at the balance every so often.

Now you are getting it...

And the[y] way you know what money you already have is?

Well done, a budget.

No, what's in my current account.

--
A soldier who survived mustard gas and pepper spray is now a seasoned veteran.

On 06/11/2013 16:13, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:41:23 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:59:35 on Fri, 1 Nov
2013, Gefreiter Krueger remarked:

So they removed the whole point of direct debit, that you pay the same
during colder months.

I think you mean "the whole point of a budget account" (which you
happen to pay by DD.

I pay by DD, but quarterly in arrears based on meter readings.

Even energy companies seem confused by the difference.

I pay monthly in arrears by DD, which seems to be the cheapest method.
They adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance.

That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.

Of course it's in arrears. He's paying after he used it.

By the sounds of it, he is paying either some of it, or all of it and
some of next months.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:49:44 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/11/2013 16:13, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:41:23 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:59:35 on Fri, 1 Nov
2013, Gefreiter Krueger remarked:

So they removed the whole point of direct debit, that you pay the same
during colder months.

I think you mean "the whole point of a budget account" (which you
happen to pay by DD.

I pay by DD, but quarterly in arrears based on meter readings.

Even energy companies seem confused by the difference.

I pay monthly in arrears by DD, which seems to be the cheapest method.
They adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance.

That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.

Of course it's in arrears. He's paying after he used it.

By the sounds of it, he is paying either some of it, or all of it and
some of next months.

I took "bring it into balance" to mean zero after the day he paid.

--
A fat girl served me in McDonald's at lunchtime. She said "sorry about the wait". I said, "Don't worry, you'll find a way to lose it eventually"

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:46:28 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 16:15:50 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card. I used to do that with my debit card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large
amount.

There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit".

Why on earth not? All the company has to do is have a seperate current account with a small amount in it.

One each for every employee? What the charge card companies are offering
is the equivalent of that, outsourced without all the admin issues.

Why a seperate one for each employee?

Or do what my last place of work did, they got a credit card with a limit they liked, and paid it off fully at the end of each month.

There used to be some issues, tax perhaps, (not sure if they've been
resolved) about issuing credit cards to employees that are paid off by
the employer.

Like what? The employer is simply carrying out the transaction for them, and has nothing to do with any tax.

Amex has built an entire empire upon this concept, so don't knock it!

Nobody accepts them. They ought to curl up and die.

Oh, so you are knocking a very successful business model. You'd
presumably be surprised how many places you'd be wanting to charge
business expenses do in fact accept them.

I prefer things that are accepted everywhere. That's Mastercard and Visa (credit or debit cards).

--
Why are they called buildings, when they're already finished? Shouldn't they be called builts?

In message , at 17:07:52 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit".

Why on earth not? All the company has to do is have a seperate current account with a small amount in it.

One each for every employee? What the charge card companies are offering
is the equivalent of that, outsourced without all the admin issues.

Why a seperate one for each employee?

Otherwise a company with 1,000 employees each of whom might have £2k a
month expenses has to deposit £2m, all of which any one of the employees
can access.

Or do what my last place of work did, they got a credit card with a limit they liked, and paid it off fully at the end of each month.

There used to be some issues, tax perhaps, (not sure if they've been
resolved) about issuing credit cards to employees that are paid off by
the employer.

Like what? The employer is simply carrying out the transaction for them, and has nothing to do with any tax.

"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:02:17 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:07:52 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
There's not a concept (as far as I'm aware) of a company debit card with
a "limit".

Why on earth not? All the company has to do is have a seperate current account with a small amount in it.

One each for every employee? What the charge card companies are offering
is the equivalent of that, outsourced without all the admin issues.

Why a seperate one for each employee?

Otherwise a company with 1,000 employees each of whom might have £2k a
month expenses has to deposit £2m, all of which any one of the employees
can access.

If the charge card company can do it, then why not current accounts?

Or do what my last place of work did, they got a credit card with a limit they liked, and paid it off fully at the end of each month.

There used to be some issues, tax perhaps, (not sure if they've been
resolved) about issuing credit cards to employees that are paid off by
the employer.

Like what? The employer is simply carrying out the transaction for them, and has nothing to do with any tax.

"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people
appear bright until you hear them speak.

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Typo, that should have been 40 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists off in
a conniption fit.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:42:56 -0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Typo, that should have been 40 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists off in
a conniption fit.

The problem is that tax is applied in so many places. It needs drastically simplifying.

--
What is the punishment for bigamy?
Two mother-in-laws.

On 06/11/2013 16:48, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:41:51 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 15:33, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:28:17 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:36:23 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:31:56 on Sat, 2 Nov
2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:



It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

Asking for trouble. Spending what you haven't got yet.

You don't know much about business do you...

Incomes are frequently generated at the completion and delivery of
products or services to customers. These don't usually happen on nice
monthly schedules. Now you could say to your staff and suppliers: "I am
not going to pay you for the next four months, but don't worry, the
money is coming, you won't loose out", however there is a chance they
may be less than pleased with that idea. Hence many businesses use short
term borrowing to allow normal activity to continue during the parts of
the year where the companies money is occupied generating income as work
in progress.

So long as its properly budgeted and accounted for, its far from "asking
for trouble". In most cases, its the lack of available credit that is
asking for trouble.

And something goes wrong and the customer doesn't pay up. Oops.

And the alternative would be no business in the first place... how is
that better?

Why assume my charge card isn't a small amount too?

Because if it was there wouldn't be much point in bothering with one.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card.

No, because debit cards don't have joint and several liability. Using
debit cards for online or "card holder not present" transactions is
inherently more risky.

I've never had a problem. Banks are usually quite helpful.

Feeble argument.

They also result is one transaction on your
account for every spending event on the card.

What? That happens with anything.

Keep in mind that business
pay "per transaction" fees on their accounts. So a monthly credit /
charge card reduces many transactions into one on the account.

Huh?

ok with sub titles for the hard of thinking.

Joe in the space of a month makes 100 purchases for his business on his
debit card. That results in 100 transactions on his bank for which hi
company is billed (for example) 64p each. A cost of £64.

Alternatively he uses his company CC to make the purchases, and at the
end of the month settles the bill with a single transaction from the
company account at a total cost of 64p

A further advantage for small businesses is that they often allow time
to invoice a client such that you keep cash flow positive.

I used to do that with my debit
card, I simply claimed for them immediately if it was a large amount.

Positive cash flow is not possible with debit card if you are invoicing
after the purchase - its too late, you have already paid.

Easier to just spend the money you already have, then all you need to do
is glance at the balance every so often.

Now you are getting it...

And the[y] way you know what money you already have is?

Well done, a budget.

No, what's in my current account.

I think you are confirming our suspicions.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/11/2013 16:51, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:49:44 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 16:13, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:41:23 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:59:35 on Fri, 1 Nov
2013, Gefreiter Krueger remarked:

So they removed the whole point of direct debit, that you pay the
same
during colder months.

I think you mean "the whole point of a budget account" (which you
happen to pay by DD.

I pay by DD, but quarterly in arrears based on meter readings.

Even energy companies seem confused by the difference.

I pay monthly in arrears by DD, which seems to be the cheapest method.
They adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance.

That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.

Of course it's in arrears. He's paying after he used it.

By the sounds of it, he is paying either some of it, or all of it and
some of next months.

I took "bring it into balance" to mean zero after the day he paid.

The "adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance" seems incongruous in which case. They would need to adjust
it every month to match what is owed and there would be no possibility
of over payment. The balance would always be from zero to a negative
amount.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 19:03:59 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/11/2013 16:48, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:41:51 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 15:33, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:28:17 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2013 13:56, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:



It can be a very good (and required) idea in business to make the cash
flow work. The same can be true for individuals.

Asking for trouble. Spending what you haven't got yet.

You don't know much about business do you...

Incomes are frequently generated at the completion and delivery of
products or services to customers. These don't usually happen on nice
monthly schedules. Now you could say to your staff and suppliers: "I am
not going to pay you for the next four months, but don't worry, the
money is coming, you won't loose out", however there is a chance they
may be less than pleased with that idea. Hence many businesses use short
term borrowing to allow normal activity to continue during the parts of
the year where the companies money is occupied generating income as work
in progress.

So long as its properly budgeted and accounted for, its far from "asking
for trouble". In most cases, its the lack of available credit that is
asking for trouble.

And something goes wrong and the customer doesn't pay up. Oops.

And the alternative would be no business in the first place... how is
that better?

I'd much prefer to have the capital first. Otherwise you're working for the banks.

A somewhat narrow field of view...

Charge cards are particularly useful for business purchases. I can buy
things for my employer, and not have to pay for them personally. At the
end of the month they can pay for them directly.

Then you should have their debit card.

No, because debit cards don't have joint and several liability. Using
debit cards for online or "card holder not present" transactions is
inherently more risky.

I've never had a problem. Banks are usually quite helpful.

Feeble argument.

No it isn't. I once bought a parrot for �750 and the card was declined. I immediately got a phonecall on my mobile from my bank. After asking some security questions, they cleared the transaction, which was unusual for my account. They are looking out for fraud.

They also result is one transaction on your
account for every spending event on the card.

What? That happens with anything.

Keep in mind that business
pay "per transaction" fees on their accounts. So a monthly credit /
charge card reduces many transactions into one on the account.

Huh?

ok with sub titles for the hard of thinking.

Joe in the space of a month makes 100 purchases for his business on his
debit card. That results in 100 transactions on his bank for which hi
company is billed (for example) 64p each. A cost of £64.

Then they should just use a normal account. I don't get billed 64p per transaction. I'm assuming your amex **** doesn't charge that, so why would a bank? The bank has your money, you have Amex's money. So the bank does better out of it. Oh and the shops don't get stupid percentages added and can reduce their costs.

Easier to just spend the money you already have, then all you need to do
is glance at the balance every so often.

Now you are getting it...

And the[y] way you know what money you already have is?

Well done, a budget.

No, what's in my current account.

I think you are confirming our suspicions.

What is wrong with simply watching the balance to see how careful you have to be when you spend?

--
The only intuitive user interface is the nipple.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 19:06:37 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/11/2013 16:51, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:49:44 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 16:13, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:41:23 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 01/11/2013 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:


That's not really "in arrears" then is it? You would expect them to DD
the exact amount owed at the end of the month such that you start the
next month with a balance of zero.

Of course it's in arrears. He's paying after he used it.

By the sounds of it, he is paying either some of it, or all of it and
some of next months.

I took "bring it into balance" to mean zero after the day he paid.

The "adjust the monthly payment up and down occasionally to bring it
into balance" seems incongruous in which case. They would need to adjust
it every month to match what is owed and there would be no possibility
of over payment. The balance would always be from zero to a negative
amount.

Ah yes. It seems he's doing what I do. My account seems to be always in the red.

--
On a Continental Flight with a very "senior" flight attendant crew, the pilot said,
"Ladies and gentlemen, we've reached cruising altitude and will be turning down the cabin lights.
This is for your comfort, and to enhance the appearance of your flight attendants."

On 06/11/2013 18:52, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:42:56 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Typo, that should have been 40 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists off in
a conniption fit.

The problem is that tax is applied in so many places. It needs
drastically simplifying.

If you simplified it, it would become obvious how much of ones income
actually gets sequestered that way... the populous would not stand for it!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:36:44 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/11/2013 18:52, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:42:56 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Typo, that should have been 40 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists off in
a conniption fit.

The problem is that tax is applied in so many places. It needs
drastically simplifying.

If you simplified it, it would become obvious how much of ones income
actually gets sequestered that way... the populous would not stand for it!

Contrarywise, at the moment people fel they are being taxed at every corner they turn.

--
Bumper sticker seen on a B-2 Stealth Bomber:
"IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THEN WE WASTED 50 BILLION BUCKS."

On 08/11/2013 12:16, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:36:44 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 18:52, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:42:56 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:
"Expense accounts" have been a dirty word in tax circles for at least
the last 4 years.

Typo, that should have been 40 years.

Not that I know or care much about tax, but I don't see the problem.

Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists
off in
a conniption fit.

The problem is that tax is applied in so many places. It needs
drastically simplifying.

If you simplified it, it would become obvious how much of ones income
actually gets sequestered that way... the populous would not stand for
it!

Contrarywise, at the moment people fel they are being taxed at every
corner they turn.

Yup, they feel it, but its not there in quite such black and white
contrast.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:25:42 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 08/11/2013 12:16, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:36:44 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/11/2013 18:52, Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:42:56 -0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:11:16 on Wed, 6 Nov 2013,
Gefreiter Krueger remarked:


Typo, that should have been 40 years.



Company executives wining and dining each other at the golf club using
untaxed expense accounts. Just the thought of it sends socialists
off in
a conniption fit.

The problem is that tax is applied in so many places. It needs
drastically simplifying.

If you simplified it, it would become obvious how much of ones income
actually gets sequestered that way... the populous would not stand for
it!

Contrarywise, at the moment people fel they are being taxed at every
corner they turn.

Yup, they feel it, but its not there in quite such black and white
contrast.

Well one large tax would seem less taxing to me than 50 small ones.

--
The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.