Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
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Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?


The label or testing laboratory musta been the same one, ones that Titebond
III used. ;~)

You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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G. Lewin wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
....
inflammable = not flammable

If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes). Asbestos is (basically) inflammable. A linseed oil soaked rag
is quite possibly flammable.

On to the original post; perhaps the nonflammable portion of the name
refers to the _cured_ cement product; it clearly states that the vapors
are flammable.

Chris

Chris writes:
Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

Because of that, sadly enough, the English language has since defined
flammable and inflammable to mean exactly the same thing - catches
fire easily.

The opposite is now "nonflammable".

Sigh.

The English language has been well and truly flammed.

In article , "G. Lewin" wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

Dead positive. I know the difference, hence my emphasis on the NON. The term
"inflammable" is only rarely used any more, precisely because of the confusion
it often causes.

Here's a link to the manufacturer's page for the product:
http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_det...8&prodhdrid=37

The MSDS for the product http://www.dap.com/msds/30534.pdf notes the
following:

Toluene 1 to 5% by weight
Emergency overview: Warning! Combustible liquid and vapor
Unusual fire and explosion hazards: Combustible.

From the MSDS, it's evidently a hazard only above 150 deg F, but still, it
doesn't sound to me like it should be called non-flammable.

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a "flammable"
liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a "combustible" liquid
as one having a flash point between 100 and 200 deg F. So strictly speaking,
this stuff is in fact not "flammable" even though it is "combustible".

Sheesh.



Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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In article , Chris wrote:

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

Indeed it is, and you unfortunately are contributing to the confusion with
your own misuse of the word.

The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
....
OK so far...

inflammable = not flammable

... but this is _dead_wrong_.

In this case, "in" is NOT a prefix applied to the root word and meaning "not"
but rather part of the root word itself, which is "inflame". "Inflammable" =
"capable of being inflamed", i.e. synonymous with flammable.

If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes). Asbestos is (basically) inflammable.

No, it's not. Asbestos is absolutely non-flammable. Gasoline, e.g., is
inflammable.


--
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Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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In article , DJ Delorie wrote:

Chris writes:
Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

Because of that, sadly enough, the English language has since defined
flammable and inflammable to mean exactly the same thing - catches
fire easily.

They have *always* meant exactly the same thing. There has been no
redefinition.

The opposite is now "nonflammable".

"Now"?

The opposite of "flammable" has *always* been "nonflammable".

"Inflammable" does not mean, and never has meant, "not flammable". The root
word of "inflammable" is "inflame". The "in" part is not, and never has been,
a prefix.

It is precisely because of this confusion that the term "inflammable" has been
largely abandoned in favor of the clearer and _absolutely_synonymous_ term
"flammable": too many people mistakenly thought that "inflammable" was a
synonym for "nonflammable".

--
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In article ,
Chris wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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G. Lewin wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

Unfortunately, you sir, in _this_ case, "know not that of which you speak".

The words 'flammable', and 'inflammable' actually come from *SEPARATE*,
*UNRELATED* roots.

That leading 'in' in 'inflammable' is no more a negation prefix than the
leading 'in' in 'innocent', 'inside', 'inflamed', or 'inflammation' is.

Note: the seeming 'contradiction' has been in existence for a *LONG* time.
All the way back to Old Latin, in fact.

"Flammable" traces to "flamma', meaning 'flame', while "inflammable" traces
back to 'inflammare', meaning 'to inflame'. which is constructed from the
'intensifier' (!!) prefix 'in', and the root _is_ derived from 'flamma'.


In engineering circles, there _is_ a technical distinction drawn between
the two terms -- it has to do with how fast/easily/quickly combustion occurs.
One of them burns, the other burns *quickly*. Unfortunately, I can never
remember which is which.

The flammable/inflammable distinction is fairly s similar to the difference
between 'explosive' and 'high explosive'.

In article , DJ Delorie wrote:

Chris writes:
Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

Because of that, sadly enough, the English language has since defined
flammable and inflammable to mean exactly the same thing - catches
fire easily.

BZZZT! thank you for playing.

_BOTH_ terms *predate* Modern English.

They are tracable, to separate roots in Old Latin.

"Inflammable" comes from the same root as 'inflame'.

Doug Miller wrote:

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a "flammable"
liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a "combustible" liquid
as one having a flash point between 100 and 200 deg F. So strictly speaking,
this stuff is in fact not "flammable" even though it is "combustible".
[snippage]

I remember tanker trucks in days of yore (picture me as a child),
carrying warning signs that said "inflammable" or "non-inflammable". I
puzzled about the meanings of these words until my puzzler was sore. I
then asked my father who knew all things (and would admit to not knowing
as necessary). We agreed that these words were not necessarily
intuitive. Some time later the industry/government change to
"flammable" and "non-flammable". All better now.
mahalo,
jo4hn

whose father taught him about dictionaries and encyclopedias...

(Doug Miller) wrote in
m:

snip

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a
"flammable" liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a
"combustible" liquid as one having a flash point between 100 and 200
deg F. So strictly speaking, this stuff is in fact not "flammable"
even though it is "combustible".

Sheesh.

But is it _waterproof_? GD&R

Patriarch

In article , patriarch wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
om:

snip

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a
"flammable" liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a
"combustible" liquid as one having a flash point between 100 and 200
deg F. So strictly speaking, this stuff is in fact not "flammable"
even though it is "combustible".

Sheesh.

But is it _waterproof_? GD&R

They claim it is, after it's cured. Not sure how it would fare, though, if
immersed for 24 hours...

--
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:55:20 +0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote:

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

Rubbish! Webster [or any other]: Inflammable 1. Flammable 2:
Easily inflamed ...

OK flame away.

Bill.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:49:11 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In engineering circles, there _is_ a technical distinction drawn between
the two terms -- it has to do with how fast/easily/quickly combustion occurs.
One of them burns, the other burns *quickly*. Unfortunately, I can never
remember which is which.

The inference there is that the latter is the more rapid perhaps, but
that is not a genereal inference. They are generally synonymous.

Bill.

Greetings and Salutations.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:55:41 -0400, Bill Rogers
wrote:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:55:20 +0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote:

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

Rubbish! Webster [or any other]: Inflammable 1. Flammable 2:
Easily inflamed ...

OK flame away.

Bill.

Or...as I say..."Ah! a NEWSGROUP!"
Regards
Dave Mundt

Note to self: the internet is never a good medium for sarcasm (or
obscure references to "Cheers" one-liners).

G

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "G. Lewin" wrote:

You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.


Dead positive. I know the difference, hence my emphasis on the NON. The term
"inflammable" is only rarely used any more, precisely because of the confusion
it often causes.

Here's a link to the manufacturer's page for the product:
http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_det...8&prodhdrid=37

The MSDS for the product http://www.dap.com/msds/30534.pdf notes the
following:

Toluene 1 to 5% by weight
Emergency overview: Warning! Combustible liquid and vapor
Unusual fire and explosion hazards: Combustible.

From the MSDS, it's evidently a hazard only above 150 deg F, but still, it
doesn't sound to me like it should be called non-flammable.

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a "flammable"
liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a "combustible" liquid
as one having a flash point between 100 and 200 deg F. So strictly speaking,
this stuff is in fact not "flammable" even though it is "combustible".

Sheesh.



Doug Miller wrote:


Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?


--
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Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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Chris wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from
heat, sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can
ignite explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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G. Lewin wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

It is not a "misuse". Both Webster and Oxford define it as being equivalent
to "flammable". Oxford dates it back to 1605. It's actually something of
an archaism--if the word were being coined today it would probably be
"enflameable", but spelling in 1605 was a bit more flexible than it is now.

The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes). Asbestos is (basically) inflammable.

Not according to standard English usage.

A linseed oil soaked rag
is quite possibly flammable.

On to the original post; perhaps the nonflammable portion of the name
refers to the _cured_ cement product; it clearly states that the vapors
are flammable.

Chris

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DJ Delorie wrote:


Chris writes:
Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly
and can be dangerous.

Because of that, sadly enough, the English language has since

For certain values of "since". If it ever meant "non-flammable" it was
before 1605.

defined
flammable and inflammable to mean exactly the same thing - catches
fire easily.

The opposite is now "nonflammable".

Sigh.

The English language has been well and truly flammed.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly
and can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a
root word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes). Asbestos is (basically) inflammable. A linseed oil soaked
rag is quite possibly flammable.

On to the original post; perhaps the nonflammable portion of the name
refers to the _cured_ cement product; it clearly states that the vapors
are flammable.

Chris

Chris,

Ever since I was old enough to care what was on a warning label (grade
school?), this one has perplexed me.

I could only blame the obtuseness of the "English" language for this
inconsistency.

(That, and never use that term in the vernacular!)



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"Chris" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from
heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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G. Lewin wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes). Asbestos is (basically) inflammable. A linseed oil soaked rag
is quite possibly flammable.

On to the original post; perhaps the nonflammable portion of the name
refers to the _cured_ cement product; it clearly states that the vapors
are flammable.

Chris

In the case of "inflammable" the -in is not a prefix. The original usage was
inflame, therefore, if something easily burned it was "inflammable" or
easily inflamed. Inflammation of the hemorrhoids, for example, does not mean
my piles are "not" flaming.

Just so you know.

BTW, where can I get a "Frigerator"?

bsig

Chris wrote in message ...
Doug Miller wrote:

Warnings on a can of Weldwood brand NONflammable contact cement:

"Contains toluene ... Use in a well ventilated area. Keep away from heat,
sparks, or flame. Vapors may cause flash fire. ... Vapors can ignite
explosively."

So... exactly how is that different from ordinary contact cement?


G. Lewin wrote:
You sure it doesn't say INflammable? There's a lesson you don't want to
learn the hard way.

G

Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous. The prefix in- is a negation when applied to a root
word, examples:

inhospitable = not hospitable
insecure = not secure
inadmissable = not admissable
...
inflammable = not flammable

NO! The root word is 'inflame'. The 'in' in 'inflame' is NOT
a prefix, it is part of the word itself.

OSHA, the ASTM, NBS, Underwriter's laboratory etc have agreed on
standard definiton:

Inflamable means the flashpoint is below 140 degrees F. Or, as
a practical matter, the vapors can form an explosive atmosphere
at ordinary temperatures. Example: gasoline


If something will combust it IS flammable (remember your chemistry
classes).

NO!

Combustible is not the same as inflammable. Combustible liquids have
a flashpoint above 140 degrees F. Or, as a practical matter, the
vapors cannot form an explosive atmosphere at ordinary room temperatures.
Example: kerosine.

Asbestos is (basically) inflammable. A linseed oil soaked rag
is quite possibly flammable.

NO! Linseed oil is combustible. Asbestos is noninflammable, also
noncombustible.


On to the original post; perhaps the nonflammable portion of the name
refers to the _cured_ cement product; it clearly states that the vapors
are flammable.


"Flammable' and 'Nonflammable' are recently coined words invented in
a hopefully nonfutile effort to keep people such as yourself from
being burned.

Don't trust me, consult a dictionary.

--

FF

(Doug Miller) wrote in message om...


From the MSDS, it's evidently a hazard only above 150 deg F, but still, it
doesn't sound to me like it should be called non-flammable.

I found out what's going on with that, though: OSHA defines a "flammable"
liquid as one having a flash point below 100 deg F, and a "combustible" liquid
as one having a flash point between 100 and 200 deg F. So strictly speaking,
this stuff is in fact not "flammable" even though it is "combustible".


It used to be inflammable iwth a flash point below 140. Has
that changed recently?


Sheesh.

Indeed.

--

FF

In article , Ridley Scoot wrote:
Ever since I was old enough to care what was on a warning label (grade
school?), this one [flammable/inflammable -- dm] has perplexed me.

I could only blame the obtuseness of the "English" language for this
inconsistency.

There is no inconsistency, only confusion. Read my earlier posts, or Robert
Bonomi's, in this thread. The "in" in "inflammable" is not a prefix meaning
"not", it's part of the root word, which is "inflame".

--
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In article , (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
It used to be inflammable iwth a flash point below 140. Has
that changed recently?

Dunno if it changed... but DAGS on inflammable OSHA, and the first hit you
get is http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/flammable.html

"The U.S. Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) defines a
flammable liquid as "any liquid having a flash point below 100 deg. F. (37.8
deg. C.), except any mixture having components with flash points of 100 deg.
F. (37.8 deg. C.) or higher, the total of which make up 99 percent or more of
the total volume of the mixture. Flammable liquids shall be known as Class I
liquids."

Compare this definition to combustible, which indicates a liquid that is
somewhat harder to ignite (flash point above 100 oF)."

--
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Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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Robert Bonomi wrote:

snip my earlier gaffe

Unfortunately, you sir, in _this_ case, "know not that of which you speak".

The words 'flammable', and 'inflammable' actually come from *SEPARATE*,
*UNRELATED* roots.

That leading 'in' in 'inflammable' is no more a negation prefix than the
leading 'in' in 'innocent', 'inside', 'inflamed', or 'inflammation' is.

Note: the seeming 'contradiction' has been in existence for a *LONG* time.
All the way back to Old Latin, in fact.

"Flammable" traces to "flamma', meaning 'flame', while "inflammable" traces
back to 'inflammare', meaning 'to inflame'. which is constructed from the
'intensifier' (!!) prefix 'in', and the root _is_ derived from 'flamma'.


In engineering circles, there _is_ a technical distinction drawn between
the two terms -- it has to do with how fast/easily/quickly combustion occurs.
One of them burns, the other burns *quickly*. Unfortunately, I can never
remember which is which.

The flammable/inflammable distinction is fairly s similar to the difference
between 'explosive' and 'high explosive'.

Replies such as this should enshrined somehwere as a shining example of
good posting and a friendly attitude. Robert, I have enjoyed learning
from you. This also highlights that it has been entirely too long since
my Latin classes.

Yes, the English language is silly at times, but we can only do our best
to work with it and not "blow ourselves up" with cement and such.

Chris

In article ,
Chris wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

snip my earlier gaffe

Unfortunately, you sir, in _this_ case, "know not that of which you speak".

The words 'flammable', and 'inflammable' actually come from *SEPARATE*,
*UNRELATED* roots.

That leading 'in' in 'inflammable' is no more a negation prefix than the
leading 'in' in 'innocent', 'inside', 'inflamed', or 'inflammation' is.

Note: the seeming 'contradiction' has been in existence for a *LONG* time.
All the way back to Old Latin, in fact.

"Flammable" traces to "flamma', meaning 'flame', while "inflammable" traces
back to 'inflammare', meaning 'to inflame'. which is constructed from the
'intensifier' (!!) prefix 'in', and the root _is_ derived from 'flamma'.


In engineering circles, there _is_ a technical distinction drawn between
the two terms -- it has to do with how fast/easily/quickly combustion occurs.
One of them burns, the other burns *quickly*. Unfortunately, I can never
remember which is which.

The flammable/inflammable distinction is fairly s similar to the difference
between 'explosive' and 'high explosive'.

Replies such as this should enshrined somehwere as a shining example of
good posting and a friendly attitude. Robert, I have enjoyed learning
from you. This also highlights that it has been entirely too long since
my Latin classes.

I'll admit, I had the 'non-opposite-ness' of those two words drummed into me
at an _early_ age. One of the hazards of growing up in a household where
*both* parents had professional journalism backgrounds. They did a fair
amount of writing for the construction-engineering industry, and also the
transportation industry. Using the *correct* one (basis the trade-specific
_technical_ meaning) of the two terms, in those in those environments, was
an absolute necessity.

Beyond that, I cheated. For the history, I grabbed the handy dictionary
(a serious one, with derivations), and looked up both words. Then it was
just pontification, based on the 'half a line' of derivation, in each listing.

Yes, the English language is silly at times, but we can only do our best
to work with it and not "blow ourselves up" with cement and such.

'Silly' doesn't _begin_ to cover it --
Have you ever heard of anyone making an _ane_ remark?
Is the politician who waffles on the issues, ever called _cisive_ ?
How about words that sound exactly alike, and have exactly *opposite*
meanings? e.g. 'raise', and 'raze'.

Seen in a science-fiction novel: "I was hardly gruntled at the summons."
(That line has been a personal favorite for many years.)
[ trivia: my spell checker questioned 'ane', and 'cisive', but did *not*
object to 'gruntled'. ]

And a sci-fi short-story (concerning an alien that crashes on Earth) that
starts out:
"I awoke with a ringing in my ears.

Two in the right, and one in the left.
But who on Earth knew *my* number?"

Then, go look up the 'Retief' sci-fi short stories, written by Keith Laumer.
And contemplate the poor editor(s) who had to _deal_ with those stories. And
the number of proof-readers that must have been driven into complete nervous
breakdowns.

Lastly, hunt up a James Thurber story called 'The Wonderful O'. The story
premise is laughable cum ridiculous, but it is _well-told_. Not unexpected,
considering the author. There's a line in that story -- "'Geep', whuppled
the parrot." -- that, _in_context_, is one of the funniest bits I have ever
read.

DJ Delorie wrote in message ...
Chris writes:
Sorry to gripe here, but the misuse of the word "inflammable" is silly and
can be dangerous.

Because of that, sadly enough, the English language has since defined
flammable and inflammable to mean exactly the same thing - catches
fire easily.

The opposite is now "nonflammable".

Sigh.

The English language has been well and truly flammed.


There was an old George Carlin routine...

"Flammable, nonflammable, noninflammable... why are there three?"


-CJ